I don't get it explain it to me

[Xenesis.6389]

Why does the two biggest forces on the map actively avoid each other, especially map q boon blobs, and then pick on the weakest side that obviously has no forces to even defend?

Do you do it to demoralize them? well congratulations you took out the side that had nothing to begin with, and will now will not even give you content for hours!

Are you really afraid to fight groups your own size?

Do you just enjoy beating up on pugs for scrap rewards? half of which are afk at spawn.

I don't get it, it's like no one likes a challenge anymore and everything is go for the easiest ktrain.

It's baffling to me how players play the game this way when "winning" is quite meaningless, running content off maps instead of waiting to get them on the map.

This game badly needs a mechanic to always pursue the winning side of the match, not the losing one.

Like seriously why even have a 3rd side for matches if you're just encouraging the winners/stackers/blobbers to use them as punching bags? 

Why is a game mode based on points to win encourages no competition, just pick on the weak, or even actively tank to avoid, what a terribad system.

No amount of population balance, or rewards, is going to break from that mentality, the mechanics of the game need to change, just like skirmish mode had to be put in to stop runaway scores.

We obviously need more boons for their precious "gvgers" and their map q boon balls.

[Strider Pj.2193]

Which servers are in your matchup Xen?

[Strider Pj.2193]

2 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Why does the two biggest forces on the map actively avoid each other, especially map q boon blobs, and then pick on the weakest side that obviously has no forces to even defend?

Do you do it to demoralize them? well congratulations you took out the side that had nothing to begin with, and will now will now even give you content for hours!

Are you really afraid to fight groups your own size?

Do you just enjoy beating up on pugs for scrap rewards? half of which are afk at spawn.

I don't get it, it's like no one likes a challenge anymore and everything is go for the easiest ktrain.

It's baffling to me how players play the game this way when "winning" is quite meaningless, running content off maps instead of waiting to get them on the map.

This game badly needs a mechanic to always pursue the winning side of the match, not the losing one.

Like seriously why even have a 3rd side for matches if you're just encouraging the winners/stackers/blobbers to use them as punching bags? 

Why is a game mode based on points to win encourages no competition, just pick on the weak, or even actively tank to avoid, what a terribad system.

No amount of population balance, or rewards, is going to break from that mentality, the mechanics of the game need to change, just like skirmish mode had to be put in to stop runaway scores.

But Anet, I just can't anymore, friggin brick wall that doesn't even play their own game, we obviously need more boons for their precious "gvgers" and their map q boon balls.

And, really good points.  You’ve brought them up in the past, (and you aren’t the only one) in fact, it wouldn’t shock me if diku comes in talking 800 lb gorilla cra….errr stuff again.

 

But incentivizing attacking the leader would make a lot of sense.

 

I know that the group I run with tends to work with any server trying to break up T3 structures, but it certainly isn’t always the leader.  Normally not third, but that is one group out of a (mostly ) stacked server.  
 

I’ll bow out after this as I don’t pretend to have the solution…

[MedievalThings.5417]

All these great "fighters" just want to press 1 and win.  No one wants a challenge.   They stack in one place, and run around with 50-80 people to fight pugs and doors.  There is NO solution to this because wvw rank and player drops exist.  Path of least resistance, and fighting other boon stacking blobs would be challenging, and guilds can't handle that.  Lose to someone, lose people.

 

The only things that might make a dent in the stacking, would be:

1. Remove boon sharing, or make it 10% of what it is now

2. remove the aoe cap, so that stacking in one place is harmful

3. revert the siege changes

4. remove downstate

5. remove all player drops, wxp only, loot is from pips and reward tracks

6. remove player transfers for the 3 weeks before relinks and the 3 weeks after, leaving a 2 week window to transfer, allowing the link system to sort of work

 

Beyond that, not only will nothing else work (including alliances), it will never happen and we all know it.  Ktrain boon blobs will continue to avoid each other and farm pugs for easy everything.

 

 

[Riba.3271]

They go to weakest server corner to fight without claim buff.

Otherwise they will be forced to deal with siege, portal campers, tactics and cloud in addition to enemy having additional 1 runeset worth of stats. While it doesn't seem like a large deal, I would give equally strong blobs (50-50) about 70% chance of beating the other when defending on first engage without considering respawns. So by attacking instead of winning half the fights, you win less than a third.

Defending is just unfairly strong. So you try to find neutral ground meanwhile doing something.

There is also the case where if you swap owners of claim buff (double the effect), the fights just become flopsided. So it is better to stay on neutral ground most of the time to have better control over quality of fights.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Threather.9354

[Xenesis.6389]

There needs to be bigger incentives to go after the winning side, the #2 of the match can't be going along with the #1 just because hey it doesn't matter we're playing for second so long as we don't kitten off the #1's to take out stuff!

EVERY SIDE SHOULD PLAY FOR FIRST PLACE AT ALL TIMES.

The winning side could be worth more points.

Their side could have no down state.

There could be a timer before release.

The bloodlust are worth nothing to them, or worth double to the 2nd and 3rd place teams. It would be 0 stats for them but they would hold it still so the other two don't get the bonuses.

Something, anything, and not more rewards to promote yet even more ktrain attitudes, otherwise we might as well skip world restructuring and just go back to eotm.

This company is so frustrating.

[Xenesis.6389]

2 minutes ago, Threather.9354 said:

They go to weakest server corner to fight without claim buff.

Otherwise they will be forced to deal with siege, portal campers, tactics and cloud in addition to enemy having additional 1 runeset worth of stats. While it doesn't seem like a large deal, I would give equally strong blobs (50-50) about 70% chance of beating the other when defending. So instead of winning half the fights, you win less than a third.

Defending is just unfairly strong. So you try to find neutral ground meanwhile doing something.

There is also the case where if you swap owners of claim buff (double the effect), the fights just become flopsided. So it is better to stay on neutral ground most of the time to have better control over quality of fights.

That's a big load and you know it.

Siege can be killed with counters, or easily negated with shield gens. Commanders don't bother taking the time for it, that should be a mistake they pay for. Just today a group of 20 came to NeT, they put down their catas in the tunnel, invul wall goes, disable goes down, oh look what's still on the wall with no one on it or kill it, the CANNON, so I float down to it, kill the catas, group runs away, geee I would what they should have done the 2-3 mins before that point, I wonder, I can't, really, think of anything, really. No bloody excuse for that incompetence.

T3 Keeps ARE suppose to be hard to take, they are suppose to be one of the hardest places to break through two levels of defenses, but a boon ball can get through it in under 3 mins, sit in a lords room and camp it for bags for 20 mins, don't tell me all those defenses made it any harder for them, they do this same thing every single day. Btw it's a two way street, it helps them when they go to defend.

[Riba.3271]

21 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

That's a big load and you know it.

Most notable defender advantages:

- Dealing 8% more damage and being able to take 10% more burst. (So essentially having 9% more players provided you have enough boonrip)

- Stealth bombing enemies. This wipes 80% of the blobs and guilds. Is this fun for you?

- Respawn, meaning you have multiple tries to try out a fight

- Tactic: 9% more players worth of stats (keeps)

 

Medium defender advantages:

- Being ungankable by solo players (too tanky & can always go around corner and be ressed) but can gank enemies

- 25% permanent movement speed meaning no swift reliance and you cloud and stay off tag

- Tactivators: Chilling fog, dragon banner

- Rarely wiping fully. Over half defenders can easily escape using portals or gliding to advantage.

- Enemy incapable of stealthing (towers), having perma access to stealth (SM)

- Extra players that only show up when defending

- Enemy having to clear siege on walls once inside and take suboptimal routes and chokes

 

Small defender advantages:

- Siege (ACs, Trebs, Shield gens). Small group of 3 people can get these things up

- Extra time to gather numbers

- Holding the initial choke once last wall/gate is breached

 

^ Would you rather give enemy all of these or go to neutral corner?

21 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

T3 Keeps ARE suppose to be hard to take, they are suppose to be one of the hardest places to break through two levels of defenses, but a boon ball can get through it in under 3 mins, sit in a lords room and camp it for bags for 20 mins,

Tbf I thought this thread was about 2 blobs not fighting each other, not about blobs farming unorganised players with random single-target roamer builds.

 

This is more issue of a siege balance. Since they added shield gens and nerfed wall/gate HP in addition to halving siege damage to siege, it has become very easy to get inside the keeps or towers. You are right about this. But they're terrible spots to have good fights in return as it is stat reliant defending (passive buff) rather than active defending (tactic based).  Yes, keeps are supposed to be hard to take, but not the way it is currently where only much stronger group can take one.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Threather.9354

[Xenesis.6389]

3 minutes ago, Threather.9354 said:

Tbf I thought this thread was about 2 blobs not fighting each other, not about blobs farming unorganised players with random single-target roamer builds.

You make it sound like everything is hard to take, it's not, towers are a joke, they flip all the time. Keeps are the only thing you should always have hard time taking, and you should have bonuses, that's the whole point of having a fortified area. I don't really care for the argument over stats, because we have people running around in celestial which has like 2k+ more stats that 3 or 4 piece stats, boon spamming and mass healing and cleansing with half a dozen defense tools more than make up for it.

P.S Chilling fog is garbage, do you enjoy giving your enemy alacrity?

[Riba.3271]

10 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

You make it sound like everything is hard to take, it's not, towers are a joke, they flip all the time.

Towers flip all the time because it isn't unusual for groups to have different numbers and they're fast to get inside. I am only looking at the game from viewpoint of 2 equally strong groups fighting each other nearby or inside. It is fair that stronger or smarter group can flip something.

It doesn't make them great or fair spots to fight. Your argument is kind of weird because most towers are flipped before defending blob even manages to group up. Lot of that is because tower wall HP nerf, addition of shield gens and nerf of defending siege damage to siege. Also scouts are less frequent due to watchtowers and lack of willing attackers (due to changes in objective balance), thus the response time is slow.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Threather.9354

[Xenesis.6389]

Just now, Threather.9354 said:

It doesn't make them great or fair spots to fight.

They're not suppose to be, you're in the enemy territory, did you expect a sleepover with pillow fights and a movie?

Yet they can easily be taken, whether it's a sneak because no defenders are around, or a blob which can turn that fortress into a death trap.

I don't even know why we're down this tangent I don't care about claim buffs or tactics and siege doesn't need to be nerfed, but shield gens could be removed and I might even cheer.

 

The motivations is what is annoying and damaging to the game mode, it's something that should have been looked at long ago, but it isn't even on their future radar. I'm venting because I so tired of the boon ball, the blob ball, the idiotic 2v1 staring at each other punching the weakest, grow some f'ing balls and stop going for the lowest hanging fruit.

[Riba.3271]

13 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

P.S Chilling fog is garbage, do you enjoy giving your enemy alacrity?

Chilling fog isn't only used against weaker groups during fights but also it can be used against stronger groups to get them in combat and chilled while they're walking towards the lord room or to clear the siege. This will easily buy you half a minute and allow gankers to kill a few of the tailers that lack sufficient superspeed upkeep.

 

Also this perma-alacrity meme is kinda overshot because most defensive fights are just stealth pushing onto enemy and ending the fight in 10 seconds. Alacrity won't do much there. There are also unavoidable filler conditions like vulnerability, immobilize, torment and cripple. Purity of purpose and Nefarious Favor cannot manage to convert all the conditions to boons.

[Riba.3271]

6 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

They're not suppose to be, you're in the enemy territory, did you expect a sleepover with pillow fights and a movie?

I was answering the opening of the thread: Why do 2 blobs not push each others corners?

They will happily fight each other at a corner neither side has siege, tactics, respawns or claim buffs.

If you want them to try to take things from each other, the balance needs to change into one that is more fun. Do you really keep following commanders that suicide at enemy keep or sm multiple times in a row? No. It just isn't enjoyable. At least pillow fights are fair.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Threather.9354

[Xenesis.6389]

3 minutes ago, Threather.9354 said:

I was answering the opening of the thread: Why do 2 blobs not push each others corners?

They will happily fight each other at a corner neither side has siege, tactics, respawns or claim buffs.

If you want them to try to take things from each other, the balance needs to change into one that is more fun. Do you really keep following commanders that suicide at enemy keep or sm multiple times in a row? No. It just isn't enjoyable. At least pillow fights are fair.

Yeah, sure, that's why they're always up in npc areas fighting, yeah, sure, happens, right.

Don't respond putting you on ignore.

[Riba.3271]

 

Quote

They will happily fight each other at a corner neither side has siege, tactics, respawns or claim buffs.

This obviously ment the 3rd servers corner that doesn't have a blob or is too weak to hold their own: see the opening sentence of this thread.

 

9 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Don't respond putting you on ignore.

I do not see why, I was just providing you the answers you were seeking. I included the relevant balance changes and list of defenders advantages just because it didn't seem to reach you. I hope you have a better day tommorow.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Threather.9354

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

54 minutes ago, Threather.9354 said:

I was answering the opening of the thread: Why do 2 blobs not push each others corners?

They will happily fight each other at a corner neither side has siege, tactics, respawns or claim buffs.

If you want them to try to take things from each other, the balance needs to change into one that is more fun. Do you really keep following commanders that suicide at enemy keep or sm multiple times in a row? No. It just isn't enjoyable. At least pillow fights are fair.

until one blob wipes 2-3 times to the other, then they will port map or hide behind more siege or go to ppt the empty side's far tower

 

also depending what kinda blobs there are. cloudblobs lose to cloudblobs + small guilds < cloudzerg + big random guild of 30+ who agian lose to cloudzergs with good guilds using them as meatshields

 

the only way to make "winning ppt" become a real competition would be to decisively tune up rewards, and idk if we really want ppt to become that important

 

like, ppl would just overstack and server would require a 24/7 coverage. like, if there'd be seasons and at end of the seaons the winning teams player with enough participation would get a legendary weapon choice box (like ATM winners or whatever that was, might confuse it with spvp rank#1)

 

but that would be some absurd reward for ppt coverage and way more time consuming than the 2012/13 tournaments, so anet likely won't do this anyways

 

ergo "pushing the smallest" is just random thing happening. hard / impossible to change imo

[ArchonWing.9480]

5 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Are you really afraid to fight groups your own size?

Do you just enjoy beating up on pugs for scrap rewards? half of which are afk at spawn.

Yes.

That's the MO of many groups from the start; roll over disorganized groups and pat each other on the back or make a Youtube montage.

The desire for instant gratification is just how games are played nowadays, since RL really sucks. But it's definitely a thing in this game as anything that is slightly hard to get results in many complaints.

But I mean, on the other hand, the moment you start losing fights people start to log off or get salty so it's no surprise tags would pick safer options. If you do have the patience to pugmand, you are essentially required to karma train for some amount of time-- everyone says they want fights, but what they really mean is they want to win fights.

Edited May 29, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Xenesis.6389]

44 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Yes.

That's the MO of many groups from the start; roll over disorganized groups and pat each other on the back or make a Youtube montage.

The desire for instant gratification is just how games are played nowadays, since RL really sucks. But it's definitely a thing in this game as anything that is slightly hard to get results in many complaints.

But I mean, on the other hand, the moment you start losing fights people start to log off or get salty so it's no surprise tags would pick safer options. If you do have the patience to pugmand, you are essentially required to karma train for some amount of time-- everyone says they want fights, but what they really mean is they want to win fights.

Yeah I fully understand the need to keep morale up, you gotta pick your fights, you win some you lose some, but you don't want to constantly lose. But when I see two equal "organized" groups staring at each other and then both go after the weak 3rd I shake my head, it's bloody sad. I can't take these people seriously anymore when they say they just want fights, and then stack up a queue of meta classes to run over everyone. Geez, 10-30 sized groups are still really fun, anything beyond that is just so sad to watch.

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 hour ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Yeah I fully understand the need to keep morale up, you gotta pick your fights, you win some you lose some, but you don't want to constantly lose. But when I see two equal "organized" groups staring at each other and then both go after the weak 3rd I shake my head, it's bloody sad. I can't take these people seriously anymore when they say they just want fights, and then stack up a queue of meta classes to run over everyone. Geez, 10-30 sized groups are still really fun, anything beyond that is just so sad to watch.

Yea pretty much.

I think bridge staring contests is the worst. "You Push" "No you push!"

[hugeboss.5432]

It's good to see people still care about WvW, we just need anet to climb aboard and start focus caring for the best interest of the actual gamemode health again (and not economy reports). Build a fantastic game, focus developing great stuffs & keep it healthy for the communities, and the economy has a tendency to follow (not vice versa).

 

[aspirine.6852]

8 hours ago, Threather.9354 said:

 

Defending is just unfairly strong.

Ehhh ok. It really isnt though. 

[Strider Pj.2193]

1 hour ago, aspirine.6852 said:

Ehhh ok. It really isnt though. 

Agreed.  When I seen these type of posts I can’t help but think of that recurring statement from Princess Bride

 

[Karagee.6830]

9 hours ago, Ubi.4136 said:

All these great "fighters" just want to press 1 and win.  No one wants a challenge.   They stack in one place, and run around with 50-80 people to fight pugs and doors.  There is NO solution to this because wvw rank and player drops exist.  Path of least resistance, and fighting other boon stacking blobs would be challenging, and guilds can't handle that.  Lose to someone, lose people.

 

The only things that might make a dent in the stacking, would be:

1. Remove boon sharing, or make it 10% of what it is now

2. remove the aoe cap, so that stacking in one place is harmful

3. revert the siege changes

4. remove downstate

5. remove all player drops, wxp only, loot is from pips and reward tracks

6. remove player transfers for the 3 weeks before relinks and the 3 weeks after, leaving a 2 week window to transfer, allowing the link system to sort of work

 

Beyond that, not only will nothing else work (including alliances), it will never happen and we all know it.  Ktrain boon blobs will continue to avoid each other and farm pugs for easy everything.

 

 

These are mostly good suggestions except maybe 2 and 5 as 2 would do nothing for zergs with a ton of cleanses and you can't pigeonhole people into playing for ppt or you'd lose a chunk of the playerbase.

 

However, 1 yes, very much so, if you can nerf warriors' cc to do basically zero damage in wvw, then you can fix this too. 

 

4 yes, yes, yes, remove downstate forever at the very least if you are outnumbering people: just give people a debuff if they are outnumbering others, I'd go as far as to say that outnumbering should apply a debuff/buff that affect stats exponentially the more someone is outnumbered. It won't do anything for small groups getting stomped by zergs but 3 v 6, 5 v10 it would be significant.

 

6 addresses the mother of a lot of problems with wvw that leads stacking on some servers. As people have repeated to death they will never do this, because they like the money coming in from massive waves of transfers.

[Svarty.8019]

14 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Why does the two biggest forces on the map actively avoid each other, especially map q boon blobs, and then pick on the weakest side that obviously has no forces to even defend?

The mode has needed dynamic handicapping/incentives since inception, but Arenanet haven't implemented anything along those lines yet.
 

Raymond's Linkedin states that he, "enjoy[s] engaging with player communities and working with community staff keeping player communities engaged and informed."
 

So perhaps we could discuss it with Raymond?

Edited May 29, 2022 by Svarty.8019

[kash.9213]

Stats do matter and those claim buffs factor. It's not going to stop a well crafted squad composition plus experienced pugs. It can deter less experienced squad and pugs who are starting to log in after a previous shift and there's no one who can lead them in a fight on a point for very long without wiping in frustrating ways yet and there might not be enough on who can move instinctively on their own and read maps. I can't blame that map for going after sure things for awhile if they know they're not going to be covered well against a legit map presence.

People are people, so I'm not disagreeing with you, but it usually makes sense. If I'm logging in during one of those churns then I'll see how the map is breathing and run around to find people to cover until something big comes together. Sometimes everyone kind of reads each others minds and begin to focus on a fight within the fight as long as you're losing your stuff anyway. On the bright side, if that next shift starts rolling in and most of your pug avengers who were holding it together are still on, then it's time to get down.