Which class has more build diversity: Mesmer or Thief

[Nyel.1843]

Hey guys,

 

I just want to return to Guild Wars 2 and start a brand new character. Right now I'm torn between Mesmer and Thief. I love Mesmer, always loved the concept and mechanics. And I love Mirage and Virtuoso elite specs. Especially Virtuoso is right up my alley. 

I've never been interested much in Thief, but the last two elite specs completely changed my perception. I love Deadeye and I love Specter. They're two of my favorite type of specs from other games and they totally sold me on the class. I like the Sniper playstyle and I love the "Warlock" playstyle of Specter. The problem is, I might not like the other Thief specs.

 

So, I just can't make up my mind. I think I like Specter the most of all specs of the two classes, but I don't know if that's enough to sell an entire class to me. That's why I ask about build diversity. Do both classes have a lot build diversity? Or is Mesmer always very samey and doesn't change much overall? Is Specter so special for Thief that it feels like an entirely new class? 

 

I really would like to hear some personal experiences or opinions! Thank you guys. 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Diversity is not so much defined in this way. It’s like asking whether a chocolate cake has diversity.

 

There’s sort of two definitions: which is heterogeneity or “differences” between things, and it’s more global application of that definition where diversity refers to the amount of heterogeneity of a system.

 

A class has a set of options…maybe Thief has 1000 possible options to choose a build from…but just because it has that much does not make it diverse. If all of these 1000 options are roughly the same(homogeneous), then it’s not considered diverse. Likewise, if you were to unleash thief into a bunch of games and all the players are playing only 1 of these set of options, then the system is homogeneous and not diverse.

 

It’s important…to me at least…not to throw around this word so casually…just like how balance is often thrown around very casually…these are words that come with a lot of baggage that refer to things in a way that people either don’t understand or ignore…and it is for this reason that balance discussion feels so opaque.

 

So let’s reword your post:

Does thief and Mesmer have options?

Yes, they have roughly the same number of options available to them…

 

How useful are any of these options?

This depends on the system to which you are playing in, and your definition of what you find useful to be for that system. PVE, PvP, WvW? If you want an opinion on thief the answer is: a single digit number of them are useful:

 

Open world PVE

You can make almost any build work and find some use for it there.

 

Raids

There’s maybe 3 or 4 builds.

 

PvP

Around the same number…around maybe 7 or 8.

 

WvW Zerg

1

 

WvW roaming

Around 7-8 again.

 

So as a measure of whether it’s diverse, the answer to me is no…and this amount is somewhat universal across all the classes not just thief. Most builds that you can make in this game are not useful, and or are so similar to one another that the diversity is considered low.

Side note: The above numbers are just rough estimates based on my past experience…you can do a more empirical measure by visiting metabattle or something.

Edited June 7, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Puck.3697]

Pve - mesmer

Pvp - thief. 

WvwvW - neither 

In regards to actual meta builds... ofcourse they both have plenty of sub optimal builds avaliable 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Nyel.1843]

With "diversity" I meant ways to play, not "ways to be effective". I care more about fun than I do about being "top" DPS or whatever. And when I mean diversity, I relate to possible playstyles, e.g.:

 

- Ranged condi

- Ranged power

- Melee condi

- Melee power

- Ranged support

- Melee support

- Tank

 

etc. Thief has with Spectre just one (?) option for a support spec, Mesmer has several more I guess? Are Mesmer-builds very samey? That's what I worry about. I really dig Deadeye and Specter, but I am unsure if I would enjoy the "core" Thief specs. I really like Mesmer (basically all of it), but I fear that all their builds are so similar in what they do or how they do it.

 

That's why I asked which class offers more diversity. @JusticeRetroHunter.7684

Edited June 8, 2022 by Nyel.1843

[Puck.3697]

3 hours ago, Nyel.1843 said:

With "diversity" I meant ways to play, not "ways to be effective". I care more about fun than I do about being "top" DPS or whatever. And when I mean diversity, I relate to possible playstyles, e.g.:

 

- Ranged condi

- Ranged power

- Melee condi

- Melee power

- Ranged support

- Melee support

- Tank

 

etc. Thief has with Spectre just one (?) option for a support spec, Mesmer has several more I guess? Are Mesmer-builds very samey? That's what I worry about. I really dig Deadeye and Specter, but I am unsure if I would enjoy the "core" Thief specs. I really like Mesmer (basically all of it), but I fear that all their builds are so similar in what they do or how they do it.

 

That's why I asked which class offers more diversity. @JusticeRetroHunter.7684

Oh then defiantly mesmer. 

Mesmer has 

- tank chrono.

- alacrity chrono. 

- support mirage

- alacrity mirage 

- condi ranged virtuoso

- power ranged virtuoso. 

- melee condi mirage

- ranged condi mirage.

- melee power chrono. 

Thief basically only has. 

- melee power daredevil. 

- ranged condi spectre. 

- alacrity spectre. 

Deadeye is a possible power Ranged specc. But ur going to be a immovable turret. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Lysico.4906]

Deadeye is far from immobile.     Play one

[Zenith.7301]

Thief, by far. Two viable condi DPS variants, two viable power variants,a hybrid cond+alacrity role, a healer support alacrity role.

 

Mesmer has a single viable power role after they nuked power chrono out of existence, two condi dps, a power quickness that's flat out inferior by a mile and harder to play than any other quickness providers, and alacrity staff.

 

Thief utility in organized PvE is also much better than mesmer, with better CC output per minute, not to mention several of the steal skills are incredibly strong in some of the harder raid fights. Daredevils make a world of difference in Qadim, they help a ton in Samarog, etc.

 

And then thief is a far better pvp class at the moment. A better snipe burst class in WvW with none of the drawbacks of clones or being completely cancelled out by guardian reflect spam like Virtuoso.

 

Mesmer used to be better in open world PvE for solo content (which doesn't matter much), but specter came in and it's basically a better scourge with more survivability and DPS.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

20 hours ago, Nyel.1843 said:

With "diversity" I meant ways to play, not "ways to be effective". I care more about fun than I do about being "top" DPS or whatever. And when I mean diversity, I relate to possible playstyles, e.g.:

 

- Ranged condi

- Ranged power

- Melee condi

- Melee power

- Ranged support

- Melee support

- Tank

 

etc. Thief has with Spectre just one (?) option for a support spec, Mesmer has several more I guess? Are Mesmer-builds very samey? That's what I worry about. I really dig Deadeye and Specter, but I am unsure if I would enjoy the "core" Thief specs. I really like Mesmer (basically all of it), but I fear that all their builds are so similar in what they do or how they do it.

 

That's why I asked which class offers more diversity. @JusticeRetroHunter.7684

That’s the thing…diversity is inextricably tied to what is effective. Your not gonna play, like or enjoy a build that can’t kill anything, survive anything or…do anything that we define as useful. In this sense, diversity is tied to the environment in which you are playing, and it can’t be divorced from that. 
 

Thief has a “core healer build” but it’s absolutely terrible in 95% of gameplay. Healer builds in general don’t exist in open world PVE…so the only place you’ll ever see them, and the only place you’ll logically play them is where the game is competitive and actually has other players to support. You’ll get sized up pretty quick by vastly superior builds and it’ll dawn on you that “ways to play” are severely lacking in this game as you get forced into playing the same builds as everyone else in.

Edited June 9, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Nyel.1843]

2 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

Thief, by far. Two viable condi DPS variants, two viable power variants,a hybrid cond+alacrity role, a healer support alacrity role.

 

Mesmer has a single viable power role after they nuked power chrono out of existence, two condi dps, a power quickness that's flat out inferior by a mile and harder to play than any other quickness providers, and alacrity staff.

 

Thief utility in organized PvE is also much better than mesmer, with better CC output per minute, not to mention several of the steal skills are incredibly strong in some of the harder raid fights. Daredevils make a world of difference in Qadim, they help a ton in Samarog, etc.

 

And then thief is a far better pvp class at the moment. A better snipe burst class in WvW with none of the drawbacks of clones or being completely cancelled out by guardian reflect spam like Virtuoso.

 

Mesmer used to be better in open world PvE for solo content (which doesn't matter much), but specter came in and it's basically a better scourge with more survivability and DPS.

 

It's that dangerous for Specter though? It's about to get nerfed quite likely, isn't it?

 

I really like the Thief and the "poison" playstyle, but what I am really drawn to is Deadeye (Rifle or Double Pistol) and Specter - those would be my go-to Thief specs. 

 

So when I ask about that, can I play Condi Deadeye / Power Deadeye and Condi Specter / Power Specter / "Heal" Support Specter or are the options quite limited? What can I play as a Daredevil?

 

The same concern I have for Mesmer. Although I really found Mesmer to be too samey in most of what it does, what really concerns me. Mesmer is out of any MMORPGs I played the coolest and most interesting class, but I fear it will be too similar for me in the long run. And that's where I see more potential for a Thief due to how different Deadeye and Specter are. But I fear I won't like the "core" Thief at all and that's what I have to bother with until 80 (but it would be okay).

 

On another note: are there more Thiefs or more Mesmers around (PvE / PvP)?

 

Thank you all for the input!

[Puck.3697]

52 minutes ago, Nyel.1843 said:

So when I ask about that, can I play Condi Deadeye / Power Deadeye and Condi Specter / Power Specter / "Heal" Support Specter or are the options quite limited? What can I play as a Daredevil

Condi deadeye is a bad condi daredevil. Which is bad anyway tbh. Condi deadeye saw some buffs which made it crazy in dps. But then it got hard nerfed very soon after which made it worse then it was prior the orginal buffs lol. 

Power scepter is even worse. 

Power deadeye. Isn't rly played outside of pylon kiting and would be incredibly hard to be useful playing realistically. I wouldn't personally deem to be a instance pve specc.

Heal support spectre is limited to 1 target primarily so in every way basically inferior to mech. 

It depends on how flexible you are on viable, are we talking people will let yoy into a pug and not possibly demand you to swap? Or within margin of what is the best? 

Because deadeye builds likely will quite quickly be told to swap in a pug environment, due to its requirements. 

I'd say thief's diversity is being alittle embellished. Although he is correct, steal will keep daredevil great choice against some encounters and spectre is incredibly strong but also on the block for likely nerfs. 

Lastly: in pve there are more mesmers. 

Thief in the last stats I saw was under 1% in instanced content, thief is generally also embellished on how "bad" it is so many do not touch pve content with them. Although both these proffessions aren't near things such as guard necro or rev in terms of popularity. 

Thief's rotation however is very easy. Due to initiative mechanic. Oftenly their builds spam the highest dps ability option. So there is this while mesmer has a much more abilities to use. 

I.e daredevil is oftenly pop burst utility and hit 3 til yoy run out of initiative then auto attack and ensure to keep urself on only 1 dodge avaliable for rhe damage modifier. 

Spectre is spam 3 in-between shroud. But spectres about the biggest its rotation ever gets given it uses all its shroud abilities. 

Both spectre and daredevil don't use a second weapon so 0 weapon swap too. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Nyel.1843]

I'm not really into playing the "meta" groups or whatever, I want to completely start new and look for players with a similar mindset. Sure, doing fractals, strikes and raids later on, but not with people who are super picky or only want the meta builds or whatever. 

Your answers are very useful and in depth, I really appreciate that!

 

Can't say it makes my decision between Thief and Mesmer easier, haha.  

[semak.7481]

7 minutes ago, Nyel.1843 said:

I'm not really into playing the "meta" groups or whatever, I want to completely start new and look for players with a similar mindset. Sure, doing fractals, strikes and raids later on, but not with people who are super picky or only want the meta builds or whatever. 

when you put it like that it seems like you dont want any advice.. then why did you ask then?

Like if you dont want to play meta/optimized or whatever, then its all depends on whatever you want to play as you dont care about how to properly play the class... smh

[Nyel.1843]

10 minutes ago, semak.7481 said:

when you put it like that it seems like you dont want any advice.. then why did you ask then?

Like if you dont want to play meta/optimized or whatever, then its all depends on whatever you want to play as you dont care about how to properly play the class... smh

No idea how you interpolate my comment to something like I don't want any advice when I'm asking for exactly that. But okay. What I wanted to say: I do not care about TOP DPS or TOP SUPPORT or whatever. Anything that's remotely playable without disabling you completely is totally fine for me.

[semak.7481]

20 minutes ago, Nyel.1843 said:

No idea how you interpolate my comment to something like I don't want any advice

 

20 minutes ago, Nyel.1843 said:

What I wanted to say: I do not care about TOP DPS or TOP SUPPORT or whatever.

This may be?

20 minutes ago, Nyel.1843 said:

Anything that's remotely playable without disabling you completely is totally fine for me.

That will depends on you and your group and type of a content you do. You dont have to be absolute beast to complete most of stuff in the game but to be good and geared is required(I mean, you can do well in exotics but for fractals you would need agony and ascended for t4 :) ).

For end game content aka raids you gotta be leaning towards meta, dont expect ppl to cope with you being unable to fulfill your role, they will kick you.

Back in the day get into raids was a pain, idk about now, but a very high performance and mechanics knowledge is to be expected (if not a train run ofc)

Edited June 9, 2022 by semak.7481

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Nyel.1843 said:

I'm not really into playing the "meta" groups or whatever, I want to completely start new and look for players with a similar mindset. Sure, doing fractals, strikes and raids later on, but not with people who are super picky or only want the meta builds or whatever. 

Your answers are very useful and in depth, I really appreciate that!

 

Can't say it makes my decision between Thief and Mesmer easier, haha.  

I wouldn't say people are as picky not overall. It's just key roles they want and obviously the more roles your able to fill the easier it is to get into groups. 

I think there won't be a solid answer til we see this major change over on the 28th, as effectively no one rly knows how large its going to be, so it could change nothing or it could change something up alot depending on how positive or negative you are will decide what you assume. 

If your sheerly going for maximum number of roles in one proffession I'd go mesmer. 

If your wanting more 1 in all solutions prolly thief. 

Mesmer to fill roles can completely swap through elites to fill the demand. 

Thief yoy can pretty much just play spectre and occasionally move your traits / utilities around to fit what you offer mostly. 

But that will depend on how often yoy want things to change up as I said, alot of what you do on Thief is press 1 ability on spam and then auto attack, mesmers rotations tend to be more colourful. 

[Lotus Bane.9387]

If you're starting from Level 1 and working on map comps from there in a regular way, you may enjoy mesmer more since you aren't a fan of core thief.  If you ever get one, you can just use a lvl 80 booster on a thief once you settle back into the game, so that you can skip straight to doing the HP points on one of the expansion areas.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 6/7/2022 at 4:46 AM, Nyel.1843 said:

is Mesmer always very samey and doesn't change much overall?

 

No. Mesmer is pretty flexible in the ways you can play it. You can be brittle or tanky, fast paced or slow, close or far range, AOE or single target, support or DPS

 

Quote

Is Specter so special for Thief that it feels like an entirely new class? 

 

No. It's just thief with a more forgiving health pool and less aggression and a little bit of support thrown in.

 

Sounds like you're super sold on mesmer already. Go with your gut here. I wouldn't pick thief for your first go-round, especially if you arent drawn to core. 

[draxynnic.3719]

As a personal observation, it's worth trying core thief even if that style isn't normally your cup of tea. Thief was the last core profession I made a character for because I don't normally fancy that archetype, but when I did it rose up to be one of my favourites.

To answer your question:

I think that fundamentally, you're asking about how many different playstyles you get?

In this case, I think thief probably does win out here. Daredevil does play a bit like core thief+. When it comes to deadeye... honestly, if you're playing anything but rifle, it also ends up feeling a lot like core thief/daredevil just doing things a bit differently, but rifle deadeye is a very different style to anything else. Spectre, meanwhile, feels almost like an entirely different profession.

Mesmer, on the other hand... you have a lot of roles, you have a lot of different rotations in order to optimise that rotation, but the core combat loop is pretty much the same. You summon phantasms, you build up your profession resource (clones for most mesmers, daggers for virtuosos), you use a few regular attack and utility skills, you shatter (ideally timing it so you'll regain your clones pretty much immediately afterwards, especially on mirage). If you're a mirage, you'll press the dodge button regularly. You've got a range of weapons which each have their own distinct playstyle, but the same can be said for most other professions.

So if you want the absolute greatest range of playstyles, go with thief.

However,

While it may seem that I'm being pretty critical of mesmer there, though, that core playstyle does allow for a fair bit of variation on that theme and is a lot of fun, while being something very different from other professions (guardian and thief are probably closest in feel, but that's still relative). So in order to really answer the underlying question, one thing that would be relevant here is: What other professions are you playing? If you're looking to only commit to one character period, and you want the maximum range of playstyles in that profession, then thief is probably better for that goal (although, and I know you said you don't care about this, thief is in much less demand for endgame PvE, although spectre is making some serious headway there).

If you've got a bunch of other characters already in your stable and you're looking for just one more, on the other hand, mesmer might be the better option because it's so unique. Spectre, for instance, is a very different playstyle to core thief... because in many ways it's kinda like a necromancer in thief's clothing, and if you're going to have a necromancer anyway, there's a fair amount of overlap there (although combining that shroud with a thief's kit outside of shroud is still quite distinct from a necromancer that otherwise has very different strengths and weaknesses to thief). Rifle deadeye is fairly unique as a sniper playstyle, but while other professions don't have the self-root, there are quite a few that have a similar long-range, relatively low-mobility, pick-out-a-target-and-shoot-it-up style. The agile high-mobility style of daredevil and core thief is echoed in certain ranger builds, some revenant builds, willbender, some elementalist builds, and even mesmer (especially axe mirage). So if you're in a situation of deciding what to fill your last slot, mesmer might well be a better complement to everything else you have. Given that you said that you're returning, I presume that this is the situation you're in?

At the end, though, while I have been a bit harsh on mesmer variation of playstyles, I am doing so in comparison to thief elites. Again, there's a lot of variation within that core combat loop. Each of mesmer's primary weapons feels different to the others. Chronomancer can pull tricks with resetting cooldowns and/or focusing on phantasms to a greater degree than others. Mirage has the potential to focus on clones, and firing off beams everywhere by using an ambush skill with greatsword clones is very satisfying. Virtuoso pretty much loads everything into shatters and is the only variant that can build up the profession resource out of combat, allowing for powerful alpha strikes. They just don't change the playstyle as much as deadeye and spectre do on thief.

So to directly answer the question of "do both classes have a lot of build diversity" in absolute rather than relative terms:

Yes.

Thief has more substantial differences, but if you pick mesmer, I don't think you're going to get bored with it.  

[Nyel.1843]

@draxynnic.3719Awesome reply?

 

I think right now I will go with Thief. I ocassionally play GW2 since its launch, but never very seriously. Leveled some characters to 80, but didn't do anything with them because I lost interest.

 

But after the years GW2 has gotten so much stuff that I really think a return and commitment from my side will do me good and that's why I come back. Basically I have no other class available, it's a complete fresh start for me, from zero. 

 

While I totally dig the idea of Mesmer and always loved this class, I think over the years I tried too much to play and enjoy it and that's why I am hesitant right now to play it. I never touched Thief in 10 years. And I just really love Deadeye and Specter and I totally dig the "venom" playstyle. It feels fresh and that's why I think - for now - it will be the right choice. 

[draxynnic.3719]

Happy to help - hope you're enjoying yourself!

If you don't have your slots filled, you can always come back and try mesmer afterwards. 😛 Once you hit max level, the game starts throwing a lot of stuff that can speed the levelling of later characters at you.

[otto.5684]

On 6/8/2022 at 6:42 PM, Lysico.4906 said:

Deadeye is far from immobile.     Play one

Eh. It is the least mobile build for both thief and mesmer.

 

OP, PvE mesmer, PvP thief.

[Gibson.4036]

I have had fun on Thief as:

Power Staff Daredevil - Flip around all over the place thunking things, and even your dodges do damage.

Power D/P Daredevil - Ports and stealth, decap all the points!

Power Dagger Deadeye - Mark targets, teleport to them, stabby, then on to the next.

Scepter Specter - Enough mobility to do a decap, torment your foes while barriering your friend, wells, and delicious second health bar.

_____

I have had fun on Mesmer as:

Axe/Pistol/Staff Mirage - Laugh in the face of champs, who says condi can't be burst?

Condi Virtuoso - Wreck an unaware foe with confusion, then take a dirt nap laughing all the way down

_____

From my perspective, there are more fun ways to play Thief. Though I love my Mirage.

 

[ASP.8093]

On 6/9/2022 at 2:49 AM, Nyel.1843 said:

It's that dangerous for Specter though? It's about to get nerfed quite likely, isn't it?

If they nerf Specter, it's just gonna be the shroud replenishment in SPvP (which has already happened a bit).

[Chorelz.6204]

On 6/16/2022 at 1:16 PM, otto.5684 said:

Eh. It is the least mobile build for both thief and mesmer.

 

OP, PvE mesmer, PvP thief.

At least try to elaborate man, people are writing walls of text trying to be as specific as possible about their claims you come with the classic "no it's not" source? Trust me.

[itspomf.9523]

Mesmer, since at least then people won't throw a tantrum just because you used a mechanic other classes also have, lol.