Anet cannot count participation and this is a FACT

[Littlekenny.4196]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Why? I just explained that total population might not be the only factor when links (or the lack thereof) are considered.

If players would actually play normally instead of trying to artificially tank the server's population, that alone might already improve your situation. Would you steamroll in T1? No, ofc not, but you could be competitive against other lower populated servers instead of being outnumbered everywhere at any time then complain about that self inflicted situation. It's not like T5 can't be fun.

Pre strike it took people playing for >10 hours per day every day to just scrape into T4. Gandara does have more players than people think, but not enough to compete with anybody. Even with people playing huge amounts of additional hours, for most of them we were still outnumbered on every border having to fight 50+ with 20-25 while another blob from that same enemy server was capping another border.

Gandara does get queues but they are maybe twice a week and single figure on 1 border when there is only 1 enemy group to fight.

 

T1 when linked with Fort Ranik was because FR had a significant amount of incoming transfers.

[Karagee.6830]

8 hours ago, Littlekenny.4196 said:

Pre strike it took people playing for >10 hours per day every day to just scrape into T4. Gandara does have more players than people think, but not enough to compete with anybody. Even with people playing huge amounts of additional hours, for most of them we were still outnumbered on every border having to fight 50+ with 20-25 while another blob from that same enemy server was capping another border.

Gandara does get queues but they are maybe twice a week and single figure on 1 border when there is only 1 enemy group to fight.

 

T1 when linked with Fort Ranik was because FR had a significant amount of incoming transfers.

And here is the reason why what people claim Anet said about counting participation does not stack up: Gandara does have players, but a large number of them play a couple of evenings and do not play the rest of the week. If this was assessed correctly we wouldn't be Full and/or we wouldn't be unlinked. Because on weekdays we are outnumbered even by the other unlinked servers.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Chaba.5410]

2 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

So you presented no proof.

No proof about the fact Anet calculates numbers as you (and they) say they calculate numbers. The premise of this thread is they the do not do what they say they do. So no, words from Anet are not proof. Charts with the size of the servers are like doodles on toilet paper if they are not calculated in any rational way. But I would be happy if someone at Anet at least grew a pair and lied straight to my face that Gandara is the most WvW populated server by a country mile. 

No proof that there has been a server Full and without a link for a year. Your quote is no proof of this. Getting a link 50% of the times like Desolation does is not the same situation as Gandara, not even close. Don't offend my intelligence. The Kodash situation after the people left is the situation Gandara is in every weekday, so thank you for proving my point that we are in a similar situation to a server after it suffered a mass exodus.

 

 

It's extremely disingenuous of you to make a claim without proof then demand proof of others.  Intellectually dishonest as well.  I provided enough information that anyone can verify for themselves without me doing it for them.  Good day.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[Karagee.6830]

6 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

It's extremely disingenuous of you to make a claim without proof then demand proof of others.  Intellectually dishonest as well.  I provided enough information that anyone can verify for themselves without me doing it for them.  Good day.

Eh no, you made a counterclaim without providing any proof, not even circumstantial evidence. At this point all you're doing is misinformation.

I provided you with my direct experience of the situation and the little red icon that says outnumbered everywhere you go. If that's not enough for you to understand things do not work the way you claim and Anet claims and you are still in denial, then the evidence on participation can be easily inferred from GW2 mists data as Mabi (a commander on another EU server) and Arky have done in other threads.

I'm still waiting on your proof on the other mythical server locked and full and without a link for a year. I guess I'll keep waiting.

[Mabi black.1824]

16 hours ago, bigFM.8642 said:

 

So let me get this straight, they use these time periods to prevent active tanking, while at the same time they have absolutely no restriction for transferring whereever you want right after relink. From these two options the latter one is what destroys any kind of sense in the whole relink system, since any and all calculations they did ahead of time get changed INSTANTLY and ENTIRELY by the PLAYERS. Meanwhile the people who chose to stick to their server get punished by spending another two months in T5. The irony here is just sickening...

hi bugFM,

I thank you so much, that's all, no proof is needed, this is enough. people (cowards) stack to have an easy game to win easy, and the system counts the population so slowly (not to manipulate the system hahahaha which system? arenanet or you are there or you do it say in my parts)

also I have the strange feeling that in this forum we are in a clear minority to have a team spirit, to be there always and in any case even when you can only lose, the majority instead like to win easy a nice transfer and away 60 days of gande fun 60 vs 30 on any map you want, beautiful (it would only serve the title of coward next to the name of your avatar so I can recognize you faster)

 

I put a little salt that in this mode never hurts.😊

[Mabi black.1824]

I can suggest as someone has already written intelligently, to make sure that no team in the EU remains without a link for 2 consecutive times. with this I do not want to create problems or undermine the mechanics of this wonderful algorithm (I apologize to anet if lately I am little simatic) can we also ask to check it simply manually by an anet representative?

[Arky.3072]

2 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

[...]the evidence on participation can be easily inferred from GW2 mists data as Mabi (a commander on another EU server) and Arky have done in other threads.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/116618-please-release-the-numbers-that-show-that-gandara-is-the-most-populated-server-on-eu-right-now/?do=findComment&comment=1685665

You're welcome.

[Chaba.5410]

7 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Eh no, you made a counterclaim without providing any proof, not even circumstantial evidence. At this point all you're doing is misinformation.

I provided you with my direct experience of the situation and the little red icon that says outnumbered everywhere you go. If that's not enough for you to understand things do not work the way you claim and Anet claims and you are still in denial, then the evidence on participation can be easily inferred from GW2 mists data as Mabi (a commander on another EU server) and Arky have done in other threads.

I'm still waiting on your proof on the other mythical server locked and full and without a link for a year. I guess I'll keep waiting.

You created this thread by making a claim without providing any solid data.  Everyone knows the outnumbered buff is meaningless because population hours are measured 24/7 over the entire match.  Even worse, the claim you made is rooted in conspiracy theory style thinking that Anet is lying which may be your personal opinion, but which all people who value epistemic honesty should reject.  All you're doing is a good job of fooling yourself.  Others do not have such an emotional attachment to the subject to do that.

GW2 mists data doesn't go back as far as when Kodash was stuck in a similar situation.  Why do you not remember it?  It was talked about even more than Gandara at the time because it was the very first EU server to have been Full, get no link, drop to T5 and remain that way for way too long.  I'm primarily an NA player but even I remember it.  Forum and reddit posts making reference to what happened to Kodash are not circumstantial evidence but the outnumbered buff is?  How disingenuous of you again.

Moreover, why are you inferring population from kills+deaths?  That's cherry-picking a single data point and I'll show you why with a simple excersize.  If you add up the kills+deaths from EU T1 and compare it with the kills+deaths of EU T2, T2 ends up with higher activity level.  Yet the population in T2 is lower!  According to your logic, the K+D in T1 should be higher, way higher since that's at least 4 full servers in T1.  Quality inference requires using all the datapoints possible and after three weeks of Gandara tanking on purpose, the data becomes trash.  And of course players with alts or bandwagoning doesn't help raise the quality of that data either.

seafarer's underworld  full+high
riverside abaddon's mouth  full + very high
piken square + ros  full + full

22.712
23.677
17.129
20.453
21.502
19.696

= 125.169

deso+rof  full+very high
fow+kodash  very high + high
wsr+vizunah  very high + medium

19.292
27.468
29.528
18.873
1.56
15.099
19.723

= 131.543

All I can say in closing is it's silly to get so bent out of shape over this.  You're experiencing something that happens to different servers from time to time as a result of the problems with the current system and something that World Restructuring is going to attempt to solve.  These large population chunks called servers are hard to create links from without someone getting shafted every once in a long while.

"Since our final world total needs to be divisible by 3 because we need a team for each color—Red, Blue, and Green—we either need to avoid linking any of the worlds, or link some worlds even if the result is that they have the advantage of a larger population."

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/New-Worlds

Edited June 21, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[Mabi black.1824]

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Moreover, why are you inferring population from kills+deaths?  That's cherry-picking a single data point and I'll show you why with a simple excersize.  If you add up the kills+deaths from EU T1 and compare it with the kills+deaths of EU T2, T2 ends up with higher activity level.

excuse chaba, 

but it is not correct to argue that t1 must have more players than t2. if only it were that simple. in europe you can be in t1 come the reconnections , you return yourself without links and probably with less activity than a t2 or t3 . then add the transfers, you can only imagine groups of unleashed completely crazy out of control who choose to pile up maybe in a link of t4 . well that t4 will have more activity than all the other teams. this stuff in europe happens every 60 days.

now,

it is true that it is all by logic to deduction there is no certainty, no one here has access to official / real data

but,

one of the few parameters / numbers that we can all read with certainty are the k / d

 

you have to add k + d for all three competing teams. this gives you an idea of the flow of the three teams and consequently their number of players.

if at the end of the week the 3 k + d are similar then , I can tell you with certainty that you will have had a pleasant, exciting, competitive week.

if you see you find only for example two teams with about 50,000 k + d and your team has only come close to 25,000 k + d of I can say with equal certainty, that it has had a rather complicated week, almost as if your enemies were twice as many as you.

try it to believe it😉

Edited June 21, 2022 by Mabi black.1824

[Strider Pj.2193]

Do you really think Anet is going to show you how they calculate status?  
 

And you are calling @Chaba.5410delusional??

 

Look,  how they count it won’t be released.  Likely ever.  I mean, your strike will probably at some point allow you to have a link.  But who knows when.
 

People have offered how Anet has said they count activity.  We won’t know, likely ever if that is right or wrong.  🤷

 

But you can continue to rage against the machine.  If it makes you feel better.  
 

Or…. You could just play the game.  
 

Gl to you mate.

[Chaba.5410]

53 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

it is true that it is all by logic to deduction there is no certainty, no one here has access to official / real data

Exactly.  Thank you.  We cannot make claims that Anet is lying about how population is calculated because we only have a rudimentary idea of how their algorithm works based on what they've posted in the past.  We have little reason to doubt what was told to us other than to say we don't have a way of finding out.  FWIW the population status of worlds just updated yesterday and the API is showing more of T1 as "Full" (whatever that threshold is) than T2 so it's reasonable to use that as a datapoint due to how recent it is.

 

53 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

you have to add k + d for all three competing teams. this gives you an idea of the flow of the three teams and consequently their number of players.

I added the K+D of all three competing teams yet I assume you mean add it up at the end of the match.  That would indeed be better.

I do not, however, make the assumption that this is an accurate measure of server population, or rather strength.  The scoring system rewards playhours and individual playhours are volatile over the course of multiple matches.  That's why player numbers has never been a good metric and what lead to the creation of the algorithm.  To be sure, Anet did write that they tried various other means to model population and found playhours to be the most accurate.

There's no doubt that being outnumbered during prime time is a terrible gaming experience.  It happens quite a bit in NA.  It is possible that what is hurting Gandara is, like on an NA server, that they have more players playing outside of EU prime time that is pushing their rolling playhour average up.  K+D would not show that because such activity level is always low outside of prime.  A single player isn't going to be able to see that from personal experience either.  That is the type of data I would pursue.

The API exposes quite a bit of data other than just K+D that can also indicate player activity outside of PvP.  These match websites don't always display nor retain that data.  What it doesn't do is give us the data we would need to check and verify the Anet algorithm: WxP gain and playhours.
 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[Mabi black.1824]

4 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

We cannot make claims that Anet is lying about how population is calculated because we only have a rudimentary idea of how their algorithm works based on what they've posted in the past and there hasn't been a reason to doubt that other than to say we don't have a way of finding out.

we will all agree that anet is not lying, only that would be missing. this post is trying to say that without will to deceive in some strange way the algorithm actually has some problem. something happens that should run perfectly without errors, but then you discover even after a long time, that an error inside in fact there is. you didn't want it you didn't even imagine it, but there is.

in fact for what the gandare players have written above, and for my gaming experience like yours I guess I can say that there is a problem with how teams are matched and built. after all, even anet has said so and in fact has proposed alliances to solve precisely this problem.😢 my personal concern is that we could get a result ......... say......... that fixes something and breaks something else.

[Chaba.5410]

48 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

there is a problem with how teams are matched and built.

Absolutely.  Anet acknowledged this years ago in that "New Worlds" post I linked above.  Having smaller "servers" would have allowed them to build teams that are closer in population to each other and possibly avoid situations where a server is Full and unlinked for so long because they need to create teams divisible by 3 even if the result is teams with larger populations beyond the Full threshold.

My personal concern with World Restructuring is whether they are going to allow transfers or not after teams are formed for a season because mass transfers ultimately defeat the goals of the new team-building method.

[Magnuzone.8395]

We're linked with Vizunah Square. You can have them if you want a link.

[Karagee.6830]

3 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Exactly.  Thank you.  We cannot make claims that Anet is lying about how population is calculated because we only have a rudimentary idea of how their algorithm works based on what they've posted in the past.  We have little reason to doubt what was told to us other than to say we don't have a way of finding out.  FWIW the population status of worlds just updated yesterday and the API is showing more of T1 as "Full" (whatever that threshold is) than T2 so it's reasonable to use that as a datapoint due to how recent it is.

 

I added the K+D of all three competing teams yet I assume you mean add it up at the end of the match.  That would indeed be better.

I do not, however, make the assumption that this is an accurate measure of server population, or rather strength.  The scoring system rewards playhours and individual playhours are volatile over the course of multiple matches.  That's why player numbers has never been a good metric and what lead to the creation of the algorithm.  To be sure, Anet did write that they tried various other means to model population and found playhours to be the most accurate.

There's no doubt that being outnumbered during prime time is a terrible gaming experience.  It happens quite a bit in NA.  It is possible that what is hurting Gandara is, like on an NA server, that they have more players playing outside of EU prime time that is pushing their rolling playhour average up.  K+D would not show that because such activity level is always low outside of prime.  A single player isn't going to be able to see that from personal experience either.  That is the type of data I would pursue.

The API exposes quite a bit of data other than just K+D that can also indicate player activity outside of PvP.  These match websites don't always display nor retain that data.  What it doesn't do is give us the data we would need to check and verify the Anet algorithm: WxP gain and playhours.
 

We. Are. Outnumbered. Every. Day. Of. The . Week. Except. Weekend. Primetime. I don't think you fully understand what having no link for stretches of 10 months and being full during the same period actually means. Just take the worst situation imaginable in NA and multiply it by 2 and then stretch it to 10-12 monrhs instead of 2 months for good measure.

[Karagee.6830]

1 minute ago, Magnuzone.8395 said:

We're linked with Vizunah Square. You can have them if you want a link.

You wanna be without link and closed for a year? Hahaha what a brave soul we have here. Get your server to sign a petition to swap with Gandara, I'll have my popcorns ready. You will have 100% support from Gandarans btw.

[Chaba.5410]

9 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

We. Are. Outnumbered. Every. Day. Of. The . Week. Except. Weekend. Primetime. I don't think you fully understand what having no link for stretches of 10 months and being full during the same period actually means. Just take the worst situation imaginable in NA and multiply it by 2 and then stretch it to 10-12 monrhs instead of 2 months for good measure.

Which. Is. Why. I. Suggested. Earlier. That. Gandara. Probably. Has. Enough. Players. Outside. Of. Primtimes. Which. Are. Adding. Playhours. To. Keep. It. Above. The. Threshold. For. Full.  They. Would. Be. Outnumbered. Most. Times. And. Not. Add. To. K+D. But. They. Still. Add. Hours.

[Strider Pj.2193]

50 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

That's all correct except they could simply open up Gandara and make us like Baruch Bay. Meddling for 12 months is better than having a link once a year.

 

Either way I will open new threads week after week after week until everyone is so sick and tired of it that they will complain to Anet. Maybe one day all of this will produce some result.

I mean you could.  It’s just that the last person to do so got banned, and forgotten.  

[Svarty.8019]

On 6/20/2022 at 9:42 AM, Karagee.6830 said:

Anet cannot count [..] and this is a FACT

Fixed it for you. 

 

Evidence:

• If you ever take part in a mount race and wonder why you have to wait an extra second, it's because Anet can't count to zero.
• Look at the timer on tactics, it goes to 1 minute, then when that minute runs out, it counts down for ANOTHER MINUTE!
•  

[Karagee.6830]

Just now, Strider Pj.2193 said:

I mean you could.  It’s just that the last person to do so got banned, and forgotten.  

We shall see, we shall see.

[Leaa.2943]

Today on primetime which is the only time we are not outnumbered on all borders we had the amazing queue on one person. Yes ONE. That is not a full server, because Gandara have been full in the past like 2-3 years ago, so i know what a full servers is, and i can also see what a full server is especially now since Anet closed nearly all servers, i guess to match Gandaras full population....

Gandara is not full. Still being kept closed for 2 years all together. With only one short opening. that is over 700 days. How are guilds suppose to survive that?

 

I wrote a long post earlier this week explaining exactly what is wrong wiht not only Gandara but the whole EU: Gandara is getting is getting special treatement for zero reason.I dont want to write it again so i paste it here if anyone dont know what is going on. 

 

 What ever numbers Arena Net have will not show the real thing. Somehow Gandara is being treated differently and not only Gandara but several other servers get the stepchild treatment for no reason at all but the unwillingly to remove one tier and finally fix the problem that plauged us since links became a thing..

And especially now when we know that alliances is not gonna come in a few weeks.  This is a EU matter as a whole, but Gandara is showing exactly how badly a server can be treated.  So Anet please stop destroying WvW in EU, and fix what is broken and give us the WvW that NA have where all have links. PLEASE!

 

 

[Leaa.2943]

53 minutes ago, Magnuzone.8395 said:

We're linked with Vizunah Square. You can have them if you want a link.

It does not matter what link you get, it is the fact that guilds and friends and new players are able to move to a link so that they can play together with guilds, friends and others.

Imagine you are in a raiding guild. Now imagine your servers is a host that is closed for 370 days and before that 270 days, and only 2-3 times a year you get a link. How is your raiding guild gonna recruit and get your new players and friends to play with your guild? 

It is not easy to keep a raiding guild going if your guild can not grow with new members. 

Also around when EoD came out Gandara was still close. All that time all those new players filled up every other server, but Gandara did not, we where again misstreated compared to other servers who got new blood. We could only hope for old players to come back. It just is a different game for us compared to the servers who always get a link.

[Karagee.6830]

12 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

It does not matter what link you get, it is the fact that guilds and friends and new players are able to move to a link so that they can play together with guilds, friends and others.

Imagine you are in a raiding guild. Now imagine your servers is a host that is closed for 370 days and before that 270 days, and only 2-3 times a year you get a link. How is your raiding guild gonna recruit and get your new players and friends to play with your guild? 

It is not easy to keep a raiding guild going if your guild can not grow with new members. 

Also around when EoD came out Gandara was still close. All that time all those new players filled up every other server, but Gandara did not, we where again misstreated compared to other servers who got new blood. We could only hope for old players to come back. It just is a different game for us compared to the servers who always get a link.

Also all of this ^ yes 

Gandara was open for a week when they meddled with the thresholds and every server was open. 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Zok.4956]

On 6/20/2022 at 8:59 PM, Karagee.6830 said:

There's really no proof you've presented or Anet has presented to say that the way Anet counts population is what they say it is.

Sure, every software has bugs. But, actually, the devs can look into the system and should know best how it's working internally. And if devs communicate about it openly we can assume they don't lie about it, even if they don't tell us all details about the system. Because: Why would they lie about it? 

On the other hand, if you say that the developers are not telling the truth, you should back it up with facts. Please note: Your opinion does not replace facts as evidence.

So it's up to you to show proof.

[Karagee.6830]

9 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

Sure, every software has bugs. But, actually, the devs can look into the system and should know best how it's working internally. And if devs communicate about it openly we can assume they don't lie about it, even if they don't tell us all details about the system. Because: Why would they lie about it? 

On the other hand, if you say that the developers are not telling the truth, you should back it up with facts. Please note: Your opinion does not replace facts as evidence.

So it's up to you to show proof.

Not really, no. People have said this is how they do it. I say that's just what they claim they do and nobody has proof whether they intentionally or unintentionally do something completely different or slightly different. Lying would imply that they willingly come here after being 100% sure and...intentionally deceive us. I never claimed they did that, I dared them to do that or to tell us something that is the complete opposite of what we can see with our own eyes.

I'm gonna take screenshots of home border and EBG with 'outnumbered'. Would that be enough for you? As I said before the 'outnumbered' buff could be applied incorrectly also, but I don't think you'll find any person that would argue that, since everyone has experienced it to be working properly.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Karagee.6830