Quickness Herald doesn't work

[The Boz.2038]

Ignoring for a moment the fact that Alacrev, both condi and power, still needs ungodly high BD to actually provide the boon that they're there to provide...
Herald's quickness-giving mechanic just flat out does not work. At 100% BD, with the increased cooldowns on two key consume skills, the rev would have to use all facets and just tick them over on-cooldown, *and still would only get 90% quickness uptime*. The build requires *constant*, context-less button-mashing of all facet skills, *and* at least 50% Alacrity uptime in order to work.

Anet. For the love of Grenth. Do better.

[Dahkeus.8243]

Incentivizing spamming of facets isn’t good, but if they at least increased the duration of the quickness enough, you wouldn’t *have* to spam them all off cd.  Ideally you could at least spam your 3 utility skills for the quickness and still have your heal/elite available for when you need those actives.  

[Dahkeus.8243]

I also feel like if it weren’t for how OP Firebrand is in PvE, a quickness/stability Herald could be good in PvE.  However, Firebrand can cover those boons and heal instead of providing weak DPS.

[Tulkas.2576]

Are those calculations taking into account Facet of Nature? And is facet of nature going to be worth the consume effect as well?

[Ahi.9673]

7 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Ignoring for a moment the fact that Alacrev, both condi and power, still needs ungodly high BD to actually provide the boon that they're there to provide...
Herald's quickness-giving mechanic just flat out does not work. At 100% BD, with the increased cooldowns on two key consume skills, the rev would have to use all facets and just tick them over on-cooldown, *and still would only get 90% quickness uptime*. The build requires *constant*, context-less button-mashing of all facet skills, *and* at least 50% Alacrity uptime in order to work.

Anet. For the love of Grenth. Do better.

 

Go read up on what Facet of Nature does.

[The Boz.2038]

5 hours ago, Tulkas.2576 said:

Are those calculations taking into account Facet of Nature? And is facet of nature going to be worth the consume effect as well?

For a moment I forgot that FoN goes above the usual boon cap. 
It makes things better. Still annoying gameplay with spamming and tons of BD, but eh.

[Ahi.9673]

using a facet consume on CD is not 'spamming' and yeah all supports require boon duration gear, nothing new there

 

 

[The Boz.2038]

1 hour ago, Ahi.9673 said:

using a facet consume on CD is not 'spamming' and yeah all supports require boon duration gear, nothing new there

 

 

ALL consume skills, literally on-CD?
Literally *none* other than Alacrev need to get 100% BD to barely function (while providing not much at all other than the boon, because insta-flipping each consume doesn't really put out many boons).

[Ahi.9673]

not all. pretty sure you will want to keep nature running.  using elements, strenght and chaos on cd is how dps herald rotation currently plays, nothing new there. as for light and darkness, we will see if they are needed as well, too early to tell.

 

 

 

 

[The Boz.2038]

It literally is not too early. We have mathematics. We can calculate this. If you keep Nature going, you lose the Nature Consume. Your net quickness gain from that is nil; you are supposed to use the consume Nature to grant ~3s quickness, and refresh for another 2s (which is unmodified by BD). Total full skill uptime of quickness from all consumes is 20s, and total cooldown before alacrity for that cycle is 19.5s, at 100% BD.

[Aeolus.3615]

Ventari lost its alacrity :) dont count with it

 

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[The Boz.2038]

1 hour ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Ventari lost its alacrity

Good news, IMO.

Yes, bring on the pitchforks.

[Ahi.9673]

2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

It literally is not too early. We have mathematics. We can calculate this. If you keep Nature going, you lose the Nature Consume. Your net quickness gain from that is nil; you are supposed to use the consume Nature to grant ~3s quickness, and refresh for another 2s (which is unmodified by BD). Total full skill uptime of quickness from all consumes is 20s, and total cooldown before alacrity for that cycle is 19.5s, at 100% BD.

 

hmm, yeah actually you have a point, it seems you will need to consume all the facets, including nature.  are you sure of the math though? cause it should be 3.6s of quickness per consume with 100% boon duration from gear + 20% from facet of nature passive, and that passive is going to persist for 6 sec after you consume it thanks to draconic echo.

 

so that would make it 6x3,6 + 2 sec from the facet of nature consume = 23,6s of quickness, no? 

[The Boz.2038]

Nature's BD isn't "BD", nor is it base duration. It stacks with concentration, but isn't affected by it. So with 100% BD and Nature, 1.5s quickness becomes 3.3, not 3.6. But nitpicking, so whatevs.
With five Facets (because you tick Nature on and leave it there), you get 16,5s quickness by consuming all, and their combined average cooldown is 19 (15.2 with 100% Alacrity). Insulting.
Even with Echo, you only get 2 ticks, sometimes three (Facet boon-giving timings are... wonky), every 15/20/30 seconds. Three ticks of Strength every 15 (12) seconds is pathetic. Three ticks of Fury barely keeps it going.

[Virdo.1540]

btw  even without needing extra boon duration, Quick DPS herald is utter garbage dps

Compared to all other quickness providers. Thanks to new cooldowns...

 

Reminder to the Devs: Herald doesnt use Burst of Strength for its Damage. It uses it because of the passive buff it gives. Pumping up Cooldowns result in lower uptime of the +25% dmg buff. 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Virdo.1540

[Malkarne.8167]

My thoughts on this:

My Alacren with Diviner has ~80% boon duration iirc. You'd get 2.7 seconds of quickness per consume for 16.2 seconds total with literally every facet used. Nature gives you an extra 2 seconds so 18.2 seconds. That requires 12 button presses (2x each to activate/consume) and then you have variable activation times too. So I'll say 1 second on average to use each consume and move on to the next one so that's ~6 seconds off right there just applying quickness. You also lose all your utility skills so no CC, heals, stun break AND you're not doing much DPS while you're playing the consume piano.

Now you have to swap legends with maybe 10-12 seconds of group quickness if you're really fast. It's a 10 second cooldown to legend swap so maybe, just maybe if you did it perfectly you'll have enough time to swap back to Glint to start reapplying it. ...Except Facet of Chaos has a 20 second CD, Light is 30, Nature is 20, and they're nerfing both Strength and Elements to 15 along with Darkness. It's garbage and won't be replacing anyone as the sole source of quickness. At best you can assist with it but why bother as you'll have crap DPS compared to other, better specs that you could play instead. I'm going to be trying quickness Herald in WvW but there's no way I'm bringing that to PvE groups for quickness as is. Even if you could make it work for group quickness it doesn't seem very fun or effective compared to other options.

I think the quickness should be at least 5 seconds per activation as a baseline, factoring in all the cooldowns and legend swapping. That way you'd have to use 1-2 facets per legend swap and could generally save your heal, stun break, and CC for when needed and they'd also work to pad out your quickness when used. You'd probably still have to run Facet of Nature passive and stack lots of boon duration to keep permanent group quickness while still retaining some of your utilities and DPS potential. But it would at least be interesting with some options on how you go about keeping quickness up (stacking boon duration vs using more of your utilities on CD).

Edited June 25, 2022 by Malkarne.8167

[otto.5684]

11 hours ago, Ahi.9673 said:

using a facet consume on CD is not 'spamming' and yeah all supports require boon duration gear, nothing new there

 

 

Needing a bit of boon duration, is okay. Needing 100% boon duration and still not being able to get to 100% uptime on quickness is not. Especially when other classes can do it, with fraction of 20-30% boon duration. And would dish way more damage the boon duration herald ever would.

[Virdo.1540]

1 hour ago, otto.5684 said:

Needing a bit of boon duration, is okay. Needing 100% boon duration and still not being able to get to 100% uptime on quickness is not. Especially when other classes can do it, with fraction of 20-30% boon duration. And would dish way more damage the boon duration herald ever would.

Most classes need a lot of boon duration to be support & still have better damage output than a Herald nowadays has, without any boon duration. Soon a dps herald is even less than a 100% bd [enter alac/quick support hybrid] would be. Herald is right now damage wise in an spot, where no boon duration should be needed.

[ArthurDent.9538]

The facet cool down increases are complete and total bull shlt.

Edited June 25, 2022 by ArthurDent.9538

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

It is sad they didn't make  changes on shield like Chrono.
I don't know: consume own boons and pulse quickness or duplicate boons of allies, etc.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 6/25/2022 at 3:49 PM, The Boz.2038 said:

Good news, IMO.

Yes, bring on the pitchforks.

To  tell u the truth never made sense alacrity on  it :\ altough was a low effort skill to heal alot people on siege that were under  fire and still reduce the CD of the siege skills all in one skill, i do not mind the lost, but i will aply more might with tablet now, if every skill has boons Revnant can aply might for every boon that gives to ally.

19 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

Needing a bit of boon duration, is okay. Needing 100% boon duration and still not being able to get to 100% uptime on quickness is not. Especially when other classes can do it, with fraction of 20-30% boon duration. And would dish way more damage the boon duration herald ever would.

IMO certain boons should never get 100% uptime by one class alone.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[The Boz.2038]

1 hour ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

IMO certain boons should never get 100% uptime by one class alone.

That point is not even tangential to this discussion. Cat is out of the bag. If you wish to discuss the cat, do so, but don't barge in here and say Heralds shouldn't be allowed to pet fuzzy creatures.

[Aeolus.3615]

2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

That point is not even tangential to this discussion. Cat is out of the bag. If you wish to discuss the cat, do so, but don't barge in here and say Heralds shouldn't be allowed to pet fuzzy creatures.

In that case i  would start discussing/criticize the way that herald gains quickness imo that is the issue in 1st place.

It just a random  tweak from Anet dev's cause they dont know a decent place to put quickness in the spec, IMO they fear giving to much for it for the power /shiro revs, a rev to get decent power and boon duration will become  very squishy theres already a strong trade to reach peek performance on boon duration, still burning facet to aquire long quickness.. it is  not a decent gameplay nor its a trade off, just a bad choice form devs.

Some one here sugested that rev could gain quickness while providing boons to itself  altough i feel that's quite broken, but IF Anet make a decent control of quickness gain that actually could work.

For example, elevated compation makes a heal  every 3sec, and to mantain the same logic on Echo every 3 sec while Herald has one upkeep up  could add 1-2 sec of quickness, imo this would help alot sword/shield users as well.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[draxynnic.3719]

ArenaNet tried stuffing the cat back into the bag in the chrono days, and people responded by stacking more chronos. And we've had metas based on stacking mesmers with Time Warp, guardians with FMW, or catalysts with air sphere in order to get just enough quickness out of DPS builds - problem is, herald in raid conditions doesn't have nearly enough damage to pull this off.

[Obtena.7952]

On 6/24/2022 at 9:40 PM, Dahkeus.8243 said:

Incentivizing spamming of facets isn’t good, but if they at least increased the duration of the quickness enough, you wouldn’t *have* to spam them all off cd.  Ideally you could at least spam your 3 utility skills for the quickness and still have your heal/elite available for when you need those actives.  

Well, it might not be good but let's be honest, you are either spamming them or camping them for the passive. Not much in between there. 

On 6/24/2022 at 9:02 PM, The Boz.2038 said:

Ignoring for a moment the fact that Alacrev, both condi and power, still needs ungodly high BD to actually provide the boon that they're there to provide...
Herald's quickness-giving mechanic just flat out does not work. At 100% BD, with the increased cooldowns on two key consume skills, the rev would have to use all facets and just tick them over on-cooldown, *and still would only get 90% quickness uptime*. The build requires *constant*, context-less button-mashing of all facet skills, *and* at least 50% Alacrity uptime in order to work.

Anet. For the love of Grenth. Do better.

I'm starting to wonder ... is 'not' being able to give full duration coverage part of a greater plan here because it's not JUST Herald that suffers from this? Are we seeing the start of Anet reducing boon sharing durations across all classes so you have to stack roles in a team for full duration coverage?