From a support Tempest, with love

[Jillian.4502]

I'm gonna keep it short and sweet:

Can the Alacrity be applied AT THE START AND END OF AN OVERLOAD so a brother can breathe? I'm already capping at 30s Alac with my Harrier's, but I can barely look at the battlefield to keep track of my cooldowns. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Why not make "Transcendent Tempest" merge with "Gathered Focus" and then in the place of TT create a new trait that would provide AoE Quickness on start cast of Overload? Then change "Lucid Singularity" to provide Alac on start cast of Overload as well.
This way Tempest would be true support that could choose between providing either healing or powerfull boons.

[Sunshine.5014]

If we have to keep Alac on overload, I'd rather it applies Alac per tick.

[Vampiremax.8350]

I would love to see alacrity while overloading. It is soo punishing if you fail an overload.
My suggestion would be to do this like the signet of courage on guard, small channeled pulses and then on finishing a big pulse of alac. Rewarding finishing the overload, but not punishing if something comes inbetween.

[Zunki.3916]

We could let Lucid Singularity also reduce attunement swap cd (like arcane traitline does) on top of what it does. If we are forced to channel nonstp, at least make it less punishing!

[Xionor.8963]

How about letting us use evade while being in overload without cancelling the overload. You know giving us some defensive option as the class with the least amount of hp. Because no other alac provider has to stay stuck for 2 seconds being completely exposed to attacks  and only being able to SLOWLY reposition yourself while the enemies constantly produce 1shot aoe attacks.

The easiest way to implement that would probably be to copy the mirage invulnerability dodge or replace the dodge with a teleport animation.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Xionor.8963

[Fueki.4753]

3 hours ago, Xionor.8963 said:

How about letting us use evade while being in overload without cancelling the overload. You know giving us some defensive option as the class with the least amount of hp. Because no other alac provider has to stay stuck for 2 seconds being completely exposed to attacks  and only being able to SLOWLY reposition yourself while the enemies constantly produce 1shot aoe attacks.

The easiest way to implement that would probably be to copy the mirage invulnerability dodge or replace the dodge with a teleport animation.

The overloads should just be area effect centred around the Elementalist at this point and no longer be a channelled ability.

This way, people could keep using their abilities while an overload is active. This wouldn't even be overpowered, given that it still wouldn't make Tempest be on par with what Guardians, Necromancers and Mechanist can do.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Xaylin.1860]

2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

The overloads should just be area effect centred around the Elementalist at this point and no longer be a channelled ability.

You mean... like Jade Sphere without range? 🙈🙊

[Xionor.8963]

2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

The overloads should just be area effect centred around the Elementalist at this point and no longer be a channelled ability.

This way, people could keep using their abilities while an overload is active. This wouldn't even be overpowered, given that it still wouldn't make Tempest be on par with what Guardians, Necromancers and Mechanist can do.

I like them visually so I came up with a different solution:

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Xionor.8963

[Jillian.4502]

On 6/29/2022 at 1:53 PM, Xaylin.1860 said:

You mean... like Jade Sphere without range? 🙈🙊

A lot of people think that Catalysts are just a lousy match up between Tempest and Weaver, so I can see the similarities. That being said, I would love if Overloads were treated like Jade Spheres. 

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

i personally would like the see

1) solo-stability on overloads by default, and the trait grants additional stacks of stability and offers it to the group.

2) alacrity either pulse during channel (and then again after completing the channel, like default overload boons) OR be granted both at start and end of channel.

[Labjax.2465]

This may sound drastic, but for a solely PvE change, I think the most important and easiest change would be for overloads to grant the kind of stability Overload Earth does. Perhaps just through a buff to Harmonius Conduit. In other words, enough stacks that it's near impossible for CC spam mobs to interrupt it.

I main tempest a lot in open world (90% of my play for a few months now since I came back to the game) and the two main issues I see with overloads are:

1) Even with traiting Harmonius Conduit for the stability when casting overload, it can still get interrupted cause it's just one stack of stability and there's lots of CC spam from mobs out there.

2) If your target moves quickly (ex: Chak Gerent) or you desperately need to dodge, you've basically just wasted an overload.

For alacrity application specifically rather than DPS, point 2 isn't as bad with the movement part; as long as you're responsive enough, you may be able to follow the crowd and still land alacrity refresh for more than just you. But it's certainly no guarantee.

But for dodging/positioning, I'm finding myself just eating damage more and hoping I can take it, for the sake of keeping alacrity up.

I like the mechanic of Overloads, generally, and wouldn't want them to be changed too drastically just for the sake of alacrity, but it being a significant part of the tempest's capability (in the past, damage, maybe some healing if you do water overload, and now alacrity) does make it rough that it's so difficult to finish it in some situations, much less finish it on top of the intended target.

I'm tempted to say, to address the positioning/movement issue, change Harmonius Conduit to a personal superspeed buff for the duration rather than swiftness. This would keep it somewhat strategic and still require awareness and responsiveness regarding positioning, but be less punishing, I think, for movement and mechanics in a fight.

[Xionor.8963]

On 7/2/2022 at 12:22 AM, Labjax.2465 said:

This may sound drastic, but for a solely PvE change, I think the most important and easiest change would be for overloads to grant the kind of stability Overload Earth does. Perhaps just through a buff to Harmonius Conduit. In other words, enough stacks that it's near impossible for CC spam mobs to interrupt it.

I main tempest a lot in open world (90% of my play for a few months now since I came back to the game) and the two main issues I see with overloads are:

1) Even with traiting Harmonius Conduit for the stability when casting overload, it can still get interrupted cause it's just one stack of stability and there's lots of CC spam from mobs out there.

2) If your target moves quickly (ex: Chak Gerent) or you desperately need to dodge, you've basically just wasted an overload.

For alacrity application specifically rather than DPS, point 2 isn't as bad with the movement part; as long as you're responsive enough, you may be able to follow the crowd and still land alacrity refresh for more than just you. But it's certainly no guarantee.

But for dodging/positioning, I'm finding myself just eating damage more and hoping I can take it, for the sake of keeping alacrity up.

I like the mechanic of Overloads, generally, and wouldn't want them to be changed too drastically just for the sake of alacrity, but it being a significant part of the tempest's capability (in the past, damage, maybe some healing if you do water overload, and now alacrity) does make it rough that it's so difficult to finish it in some situations, much less finish it on top of the intended target.

I'm tempted to say, to address the positioning/movement issue, change Harmonius Conduit to a personal superspeed buff for the duration rather than swiftness. This would keep it somewhat strategic and still require awareness and responsiveness regarding positioning, but be less punishing, I think, for movement and mechanics in a fight.

No. It has to change more. Of course in open world content that change would be enough but in raids and the new strike missions there are mechanics where the aoe covers the whole arena. You have to dodge no way around that. So not being able to dodge for 4 seconds means either no perma alac for the group -> why would anyone want a tempest then in the party? Or not dodge and just literally die as in open world content you can "eat" attacks in high end content you can't. It's going to down you instantly.

[Labjax.2465]

1 hour ago, Xionor.8963 said:

No. It has to change more. Of course in open world content that change would be enough but in raids and the new strike missions there are mechanics where the aoe covers the whole arena. You have to dodge no way around that. So not being able to dodge for 4 seconds means either no perma alac for the group -> why would anyone want a tempest then in the party? Or not dodge and just literally die as in open world content you can "eat" attacks in high end content you can't. It's going to down you instantly.

Fair point. The reason I'm looking at it the way I am is I'm concerned a change too drastic would just be eliminating part of the flavor of the spec. But I can see how something drastic may be required to make it more useful.

In general, overloads are not the most fun thing to work with. It's like... it's a concept that to me is fun and interesting provided that your target is stationary and you never have to dodge. Which is... not that often. So... yeah.

Like I'm thinking about what could be changed to overcome that problem, without eliminating the flavor of it, and it's hard. The flavor of it is a channeled animation and I guess you could do something like Mesmer where the dodge doesn't trigger an animation, but you can still dodge. Then make it pulse alacrity like others have suggested and maybe improve personal stab and speed while channeling it too, like I was talking about. Then maybe it would be workable, but still, it's rough, maybe we're just trying to improve something that has to be a fundamentally different skill for it to match up to other classes. In which case the best solution may be to dump this idea of having alacrity for tempest tied to the overloads.

Idk.

[Xionor.8963]

8 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Fair point. The reason I'm looking at it the way I am is I'm concerned a change too drastic would just be eliminating part of the flavor of the spec. But I can see how something drastic may be required to make it more useful.

In general, overloads are not the most fun thing to work with. It's like... it's a concept that to me is fun and interesting provided that your target is stationary and you never have to dodge. Which is... not that often. So... yeah.

Like I'm thinking about what could be changed to overcome that problem, without eliminating the flavor of it, and it's hard. The flavor of it is a channeled animation and I guess you could do something like Mesmer where the dodge doesn't trigger an animation, but you can still dodge. Then make it pulse alacrity like others have suggested and maybe improve personal stab and speed while channeling it too, like I was talking about. Then maybe it would be workable, but still, it's rough, maybe we're just trying to improve something that has to be a fundamentally different skill for it to match up to other classes. In which case the best solution may be to dump this idea of having alacrity for tempest tied to the overloads.

Idk.

I totally agree that the the animations are awesome and should stay. I thought instead of channeling it becomes a mode where the animations stay the same but you can still use all your skills/dodges would be a good solution. As the whole 4 seconds animation is the whole elite spec. If you reduce the animation or even take it out the whole spec becomes bland.

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Xionor.8963

[Monchichi.9301]

I don't think there's been a problem with overloads being cancelled until they put alacrity at the end of the overload. Sure, it sucks having to cancel one, but it isn't role-breaking until our role includes being the alac-giver.

I understand why they put alacrity at the end of the overload. Because they don't want us to just constantly start and cancel overloads to keep up alacrity. But why would we want to do that? 

 

We're tempests; we like overloads; we want to overload. Punishing us and punishing our teammates for needing to do something else rather than overload is bad design. Pushing us to throw in extra overloads we wouldn't normally want to do is bad design.

Both of these mechanics make alac tempest feel cumbersome and bad to play.. 

The alacrity should start at the beginning of our overloads and it should be long enough duration that we only need to do the overloads that work with what our role is. 

Water-Earth overloads work for healing due to protection and heals. 

Earth-Fire overloads work for condi due to burns and bleeds.

Fire-Air overloads work for power due to strike damage.

Needing to fire or air overload as a healer feels wrong because there isn't anything to keep people alive here. I can get might and static auras out in other ways.

Needing to air or water overload for condi feels useless because of the lack of condi in them. 

Needing to water or earth overload for power feels useless because of the lack of power damage in them.

 

I totally agree with the sentiment that the %5 crit in air should apply in all elements because being forced to remain in one element does not fit with the playstyle of the class. 

But neither does being forced to cycle through all the elements. It works for power catalyst because hammer has damage on all skills including water. It can work with dps weaver because the dual attacks add damage or condi to elements that don't normally have them.

But tempest has always rewarded NOT cycling through elements. If you stay in an element long enough, you are rewarded with an overload. If you leave that element too soon after, you are punished with a long cooldown before you can get back in. Having a mechanic that seems to be designed for cycling on a spec that feels more like a specialist is awkward. 

[Jillian.4502]

9 hours ago, Monchichi.9301 said:

Tempest has always rewarded NOT cycling through elements. If you stay in an element long enough, you are rewarded with an overload. If you leave that element too soon after, you are punished with a long cooldown before you can get back in. Having a mechanic that seems to be designed for cycling on a spec that feels more like a specialist is awkward. 

I think this is why I literally changed my character's name to TEMPEST Jillian. The commitment to an element over the others was always something that appealed to me. I agree 100% with you there. 

[Serephen.3420]

I still think the best solution would to not tie alac to overloadsat all. Shouts or even auras would be a million times better and more enjoyable to play. It would also not force you to spend most of your time channeling restricting abilities. I don't think any other alac provider needs to deal with thatkind of headache. 

[Labjax.2465]

2 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

I still think the best solution would to not tie alac to overloadsat all. Shouts or even auras would be a million times better and more enjoyable to play. It would also not force you to spend most of your time channeling restricting abilities. I don't think any other alac provider needs to deal with thatkind of headache. 

How bout both? Overloads for the static, predictable (but somewhat unreliable) way, auras for the dynamic, filler way. If the capability were mixed properly, I could envision gameplay where, for example, you know movement is coming so you skip an overload and switch to auras for maintenance, until you have stationary time again.

[Serephen.3420]

4 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

How bout both? Overloads for the static, predictable (but somewhat unreliable) way, auras for the dynamic, filler way. If the capability were mixed properly, I could envision gameplay where, for example, you know movement is coming so you skip an overload and switch to auras for maintenance, until you have stationary time again.

I get what you mean but you can also get auras from overloading as well which means you could still have that without directly tying it to overloads.

[Labjax.2465]

7 minutes ago, Serephen.3420 said:

I get what you mean but you can also get auras from overloading as well which means you could still have that without directly tying it to overloads.

I guess I'm just thinking the clarity of how to use it might suffer on the surface if it's done purely that way, but I can see how it would be more beneficial from a flexibility standpoint.

[Fueki.4753]

5 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

I don't think any other alac provider needs to deal with thatkind of headache. 

That's likely part of the point.

They likely added Alacrity for no other reason than to say "look, Tempest is an Alacrity support now" while intentionally having it be clunkier and more restrictive than the Alacrity supports they actually want you to play (like Mechanist, their new slime-coloured shiny love child).

[Xionor.8963]

17 hours ago, Monchichi.9301 said:

I don't think there's been a problem with overloads being cancelled until they put alacrity at the end of the overload. Sure, it sucks having to cancel one, but it isn't role-breaking until our role includes being the alac-giver.

I agree that it wasn't a big problem before as it is now but it still always was a BADLY designed choice. You can't dodge, revive or use any skills for 4 seconds. So you put yourself into a UNIQUE affliction for a payout. But here is the problem. What exactly is the payout? Let's take the perspective of dps. Let's say you do 30k dps as tempest and another class does 30k dps. The other class doesn't puts themself into that 4 second affliction but you do. So what does the group get out of you for having that dangerous playstyle? You automatically are worse than those without that affliction. The same goes if you're a healer or a boonsharer. You only do what others already do but you get those 4 seconds of affliction and no other class puts themself into that. At the moment we just handicap ourself for literally nothing. Making it into an "Avatar state" where you float like in earth attunement with an element below your feet (like hoverwing on the rock or in water hovering on a wave) and doing passive damage/heals (like it is at the moment) while still being able to use skills, revive and dodge and getting rid of that affliction would be a better solution because even if we put alac on auras the handicap stays the same. I do love the animations of the overload but not that it locks you out of critical gameplay options.

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Xionor.8963

[Bleikopf.2491]

6 minutes ago, Xionor.8963 said:

I agree that it wasn't a big problem before as it is now but it still always was a BADLY designed choice. You can't dodge, revive or use any skills for 4 seconds. So you put yourself into a UNIQUE affliction for a payout. But here is the problem. What exactly is the payout? Let's take the perspective of dps. Let's say you do 30k dps as tempest and another class does 30k dps. The other class doesn't puts themself into that 4 second affliction but you do. So what does the group get out of you for having that dangerous playstyle? You automatically are worse than those without that affliction. The same goes if you're a healer or a boonsharer. You only do what others already do but you get those 4 seconds of affliction and no other class puts themself into that. At the moment we just handicap ourself for literally nothing. Making it into an "Avatar state" where you float like in earth attunement with an element below your feet and doing passive damage/heals (like it is at the moment) while still being able to use skills, revive and dodge and getting rid of that affliction would be a better solution because even if we put alac on auras the handicap stays the same. I do love the animations of the overload but not that it locks you out of critical gameplay options.

 

I think it would be far more interesting if the payout was slightly bigger and the risk mitigated. 

We already got some protection and.. A little stab if we trait for it. Maybe something like reduced cool down on canceled overload? I don't think that would lead to people canceling on purpose, as the reward for finishing an overload is still bigger. 

As if stands Overloads are simple and easy. Tempest has a good chance to become a LI build for Ele. The difficulty comes from being unable to dodge etc. If canceling was less Punishing, it'd make it more reasonable to cancel overload for higher priority tasks like reviving etc. 

[Xionor.8963]

7 minutes ago, Bleikopf.2491 said:

I think it would be far more interesting if the payout was slightly bigger and the risk mitigated. 

We already got some protection and.. A little stab if we trait for it. Maybe something like reduced cool down on canceled overload? I don't think that would lead to people canceling on purpose, as the reward for finishing an overload is still bigger. 

As if stands Overloads are simple and easy. Tempest has a good chance to become a LI build for Ele. The difficulty comes from being unable to dodge etc. If canceling was less Punishing, it'd make it more reasonable to cancel overload for higher priority tasks like reviving etc. 

But the problem is there is factually no reward. Your "reward" is doing the SAME damge/healing/boons like everyone else does while EVREYONE else doesn't has to put them into that "dazed" state for 4 seconds. If you do what everyone else does then there is no payoff for a riskier playstyle.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Xionor.8963