June 28 Balance Patch [Feedback]

[saerni.2584]

There are a couple of threads but I'm making a separate one because I have a few specific suggestions for feedback on the recent patch notes. Keeping in mind that a Balance Philosophy has been promised to us in the coming weeks as they work to address the unintended consequences of their balancing pass on June 28th, I have a few intuitions about the scope and direction that the balance patch took. With that in mind, I have several suggestions for adjustments to the patch that was released today.

 

Initially, we should look at the way in which the new Shadow Arts traitline now (almost) follows a TOP (Support) MIDDLE (Self-Buff) BOTTOM (Offensive) pattern. Clearly, the developers have taken a liking to designing traitlines in a manner which promotes easy understanding of "these traits are similar or otherwise go together." This should generally guide our own suggestions for how to address deficiencies in the traitline, while recognizing Leeching Venoms is still somewhat in an awkward spot where it landed. 

 

With that said, let's dive into the glaring issues:

 

Merciful Ambush. Issue: The biggest issue with Merciful Ambush is that it feels like it was moved to make way for a stronger Support type trait (Shielding Restoration). Originally, the "choice" was whether to take this trait versus strong self-cleanse or a Deception Cooldown/Stealth on Steal. The choice to move this down to a minor pushes out other traitline defining Minor's (i.e. baseline) in favor of keeping a niche trait that had limited support value originally. Rephrased, this feels like you removed something vital from the traitline (see other trait's feedback) in order to not get rid of a relatively lackluster support trait.

 

Hidden Thief. Issue: The choice to get rid of the Deception cooldown trait was long in the making and I doubt it makes sense to relitigate that decision here (other than to say that specific Deception skills should have their cooldowns looked at carefully). More importantly, was that what was removed included the iconic and playstyle specific ability to Stealth on Steal. This ability didn't actually overly contribute to permastealth. Rather, it enabled any thief to have a way to engage using their F1 and attack with their stealth based attack. Losing this ability is a significant loss to build diversity (especially given the strong alternative traits in this tier).

 

Meld With Shadows. Issue: The trait lost the bonus stealth duration. This isn't the worst change in isolation. However, the issue is that multiple sources of stealth, stealth duration, and the source of unfair initiative regeneration in stealth (enabling excessive permastealth gameplay) were all removed. The result is a "stealth" based traitline that does precious little besides the oddly placed/preserved Merciful Ambush to actually provide stealth to enable any of its traits to function. 

 

Cover of Shadow: Issue: As a support trait in the Grandmaster slot this needs to sing. And...it is a baseline of 4 seconds of Protection for entering and exiting stealth. In comparison, Shadow's Rejuvenation is now stronger than ever, and Rending Shade can steal the Protection off someone while taking an additional boon along with it. Cover of Shadow isn't a bad idea for a trait but it needs to do more, much more, to compete with the other options. Consider that Maleficent Seven provides Protection for longer than this trait while also providing five other boons and seven initiative regeneration. 

 

---

 

Suggestions:

 

I believe there is a relatively simple and elegant solution that addresses the above issues.

 

1) Combine Merciful Ambush and Cover of Shadow. Cover of Shadow needs to be better. Merciful Ambush needs to be an option for support based builds. Combine the two and buff the healing / Protection (probably both) to make it worth taking as a Grandmaster trait.

 

2) Make the Minor trait "Hidden Thief" with Stealth on Steal replace where Merciful Ambush now sits. Change the name on Hidden Thief (current trait) to "Flickering Shadow." Because right now, Hidden Thief thematically name wise doesn't hide a thief at all. 

 

3) Options - Give "Hidden Thief" the 1 second boost to stealth duration that was removed from Meld with Shadows OR give Meld with Shadows the 1 second duration in addition to the Superspeed duration. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by saerni.2584
Added name suggestions for #2.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

This is the way I look at it.

This patch made traits require more utility for the thief to get access to deal more damage, but the utilities given are lacking and cuts a majority of the build out when we take said traits. You cant take enough, lets say, Stealth, for example, to get around to doing what the trait changes want, which guts builds. This in mind the weapons are and should be a majority of the source of the damage you deal. The issue is the initiative costs also weren't taken into consideration for a big majority of the builds that could see the light of day again. Rifle, shortbow, p/p and some other weapons' costs to use are still to high to benefit the reflected changes in order to get the damage in. Once you use the skill with high initiative cost, the entire thing is auto-attacking and even then the auto attacks are wet noodles.

Look at P/P #3 Unload in pvp/wvw, while other classes get a low cooldown they get the full benefit of using rapid fire attacks with basically no downside other than the cooldown, we get the high initiative cost a few times then we get locked out of the rest of the weapon skills which dont do squat. P/P has been gutted for years.

Rifle #4 Death's Retreat being a 6 initiative cost skill for very little reward is also gutted, you get 1 short range kite and then you are autoing

Shortbow choking gas got gutted because of the ability to spam the interrupts and poison...whereas they can simply revert it to the old threshold of poison to interrupt per pulse, they instead made it an on-impact high initiative cost. The threshold @ X amount of poison fit the theme of choking gas very well, made the target take into consideration to cleanse the poison, apply the boon to prevent the poison damage/apply stability/stunbreak etc. It made the target act or simply move the hell out of the field.

The initiative costs of the attack skills on weapons need to be reduced to reflect these changes.

Topping it off there are still very very lackluster utility skills that dont get used for obvious reasons (looking at scorpion wire low velocity) that also need to be buffed. Traits that thematically fit each utility type need to have the reductions to recharge added in some sort of grandmaster to reflect how dedicated to a specific build you are willing to go.

[DeceiverX.8361]

2 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

This is the way I look at it.

This patch made traits require more utility for the thief to get access to deal more damage, but the utilities given are lacking and cuts a majority of the build out when we take said traits. You cant take enough, lets say, Stealth, for example, to get around to doing what the trait changes want, which guts builds. This in mind the weapons are and should be a majority of the source of the damage you deal. The issue is the initiative costs also weren't taken into consideration for a big majority of the builds that could see the light of day again. Rifle, shortbow, p/p and some other weapons' costs to use are still to high to benefit the reflected changes in order to get the damage in. Once you use the skill with high initiative cost, the entire thing is auto-attacking and even then the auto attacks are wet noodles.

Look at P/P #3 Unload in pvp/wvw, while other classes get a low cooldown they get the full benefit of using rapid fire attacks with basically no downside other than the cooldown, we get the high initiative cost a few times then we get locked out of the rest of the weapon skills which dont do squat. P/P has been gutted for years.

Rifle #4 Death's Retreat being a 6 initiative cost skill for very little reward is also gutted, you get 1 short range kite and then you are autoing

Shortbow choking gas got gutted because of the ability to spam the interrupts and poison...whereas they can simply revert it to the old threshold of poison to interrupt per pulse, they instead made it an on-impact high initiative cost. The threshold @ X amount of poison fit the theme of choking gas very well, made the target take into consideration to cleanse the poison, apply the boon to prevent the poison damage/apply stability/stunbreak etc. It made the target act or simply move the hell out of the field.

The initiative costs of the attack skills on weapons need to be reduced to reflect these changes.

Topping it off there are still very very lackluster utility skills that dont get used for obvious reasons (looking at scorpion wire low velocity) that also need to be buffed. Traits that thematically fit each utility type need to have the reductions to recharge added in some sort of grandmaster to reflect how dedicated to a specific build you are willing to go.

Which are fair assertions but this means the class can actually get buffed now based on raw performance data.

Because news flash, the other weapons and trait line combinations are even worse - and have been for nine years, unable to receive any kind of improvement at all - because of the existence of D/P SA being so wildly above them that a buff to any other facet of the class would set D/P SA as overpowered.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

Over all, I understand the purpose of these changes -- they are removing "perma-stealth", but they need to make sure that they preserve the utilities that were tied to the stealth-based mechanics.

 

1) The removal of Concealing Restoration is irresponsible. This was a trait that grants Withdraw an access to condition cleanse without needing to take Trickery. I have used SA for a long time and never in my life I've ever picked Merciful Ambush and now it is forced down my throat. Merciful Ambush is a useless trait that it's only valuable if you also take Cover of Shadow -- which was already perfect where is was at. Barrier doesn't belong in Shadow Arts, the effect from Shielding Restoration belongs to the Specter traits.

 

Suggestion: Replace Shallow Grave (Specter) with Shielding Restoration. Move Merciful Ambush back to where it used to. Return Concealing Restoration as minor adept, but reduce the stealth duration to 1s.

 

2) The changes in Shadow's Embrace, Meld with Shadows and Shadow's Rejuvenation are very near-sighted. These traits has been working very well together for a very long time. If they introduced more ways to go in stealth plus the removal of Revealed, these changes might not be too bad. They forget that Thieves has Initiatives, not skill cooldown.

 

Suggestions:

- Shadow's Embrace should remove all listed conditions when entering or exiting stealth.

- Meld with Shadows should retain the Deception 20% CDR that was removed from Hidden Thief. Otherwise, the long CD on Deception skills no longer makes sense. If the 20% CDR will not come back, then at least the Deception skill with stun break should not have CD greater than 30s.

- Shadow's Rejuvenation, in addition, should remove Revealed and grant 1s of stealth when using a healing skill. The stealth doesn't have to have a long duration.

 

3) Hidden Thief as-is doesn't help to hide the Thief. To hide the Thief without stealth is to prevent the Thief from taking damage -- stealth was very effective in hiding the Thief.

 

Suggestion: Make it that Hidden Thief drops a Lesser Smoke Screen around the target that lasts for 5s. This applies the Blindness they wanted, but also block projectiles for that duration.

 

4) Flickering Shadow was very effective against opponents or mechanics that put Revealed on the Thief. With its removal, the Thief has nothing to defend themselves. Cover of Shadow is obviously a replacement, but if the Thief cannot even go in stealth due to Revealed -- what's the purpose of this trait?

 

Suggestion: Cover of Shadow, in addition, should apply Protection every second while the Thief and allies has Revealed status.

[saerni.2584]

8 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

Which are fair assertions but this means the class can actually get buffed now based on raw performance data.

Because news flash, the other weapons and trait line combinations are even worse - and have been for nine years, unable to receive any kind of improvement at all - because of the existence of D/P SA being so wildly above them that a buff to any other facet of the class would set D/P SA as overpowered.

The main thing about Stealth on Steal is that benefits more-so X/D builds than D/P builds because the latter could always combo into stealth. 
 

Not sure how the D/P types feel about losing pulsing initiative in stealth but they still have a good on demand stealth access. 
 

Which is why stealth on steal is so important to bring back to encourage non-D/P playstyles. It's true D/P still has more stealth with that, but it provides some way to even the playing field. 
 

Sure, we could talk about CND or other skills being buffed to always apply stealth (or a lesser duration if it whiffs), but that discussion might be a little beyond our current discussion about patch triage.

[Creativity.3816]

Anet is clueless

 

Hide in shadows 30s -> 40s cd

Hide in shadows 40s -> 30s cd, 2 years later. 

 

Yep looks like George Orwell's definition of balance to me

[nopoet.2960]

Loss of stealth on steal is really the only problem I have with this patch but I'm starting to wonder if it was ever appropriate as an adept trait.  Maybe it should have been a grandmaster this whole time.  I would do a few things to give thieves more stealth options.

1. Hidden Thief - Get rid of weakness on stealth attack and instead on stealth attack cooldowns for all of your charging deception skills are reduced by 30%

2. Distracting Daggers (daredevil) - Should stealth on interrupt

3. Well of Bounty (Specter) - Should additionally stealth the user

 

The goal here is to give range builds back a few new options since stealth on steal is gone (I don't think it's coming back).  Bonus suggestion is to modify reveled so that it doesn't prevent stealth but uses its duration to reduce the duration of stealth.  So if you have 2 seconds of reveled and pop blinding powder (3 sec stealth) stealth would be reduced to 1 second.  

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

SA is broken in pvp and wvw, needs a huge nerf

[Nomad.4301]

On 6/28/2022 at 5:45 PM, saerni.2584 said:

The result is a "stealth" based traitline that does precious little besides the oddly placed/preserved Merciful Ambush to actually provide stealth to enable any of its traits to function.

Yeah and see this is what really confuses me. Anet said they reworked the trait-line to; and I quote "... provide better support options to synergize with specter" well as far as I can tell Specter has zero ways to "provide stealth for allies" outside of of running Blinding Powder and/or Shadow Refuge which you cannot run if you are taking wells which you need to provide alacrity uptime, and lets be honest, running two 40+ second CD's just to provide a single stealth application each for very lackluster benefits is simply not worth it.

You barely have any way to give yourself stealth unless you take scepter/dagger and use Cloak and Dagger for.. whatever reason you would do that as support, you can't take Hide In Shadows since you need the healing well either. What this essentially means is that all THREE of the GM traits in SA are literally completely useless to specter.

This is literally the opposite of "support options that synergize with specter".

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

33 minutes ago, Nomad.4301 said:

Yeah and see this is what really confuses me. Anet said they reworked the trait-line to; and I quote "... provide better support options to synergize with specter" well as far as I can tell Specter has zero ways to "provide stealth for allies" outside of of running Blinding Powder and/or Shadow Refuge which you cannot run if you are taking wells which you need to provide alacrity uptime, and lets be honest, running two 40+ second CD's just to provide a single stealth application each for very lackluster benefits is simply not worth it.

You barely have any way to give yourself stealth unless you take scepter/dagger and use Cloak and Dagger for.. whatever reason you would do that as support, you can't take Hide In Shadows since you need the healing well either. What this essentially means is that all THREE of the GM traits in SA are literally completely useless to specter.

This is literally the opposite of "support options that synergize with specter".

 The synergy they are aiming for is for the Specter to rapid revive allies. The stealth will come from the Merciful Ambush, that's why it's being forced down our throat.

In an open world events, I see the following as an effective combination:

Merciful Ambush + Cover of Shadow + Panaku's Ambition + Dark Sentry

However, these traits combination are useless if nobody goes down. You are better off taking traits that prevent allies from going down in the first place.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Sir Vincent III.1286

[Szymon.5369]

9 hours ago, nopoet.2960 said:

 

2. Distracting Daggers (daredevil) - Should stealth on interrupt

 

Might be a hot take, but thematically Daredevil is supposed to be the stealthless brawler, so shouldn't get additional spec-based stealth access.

I really dislike Shielding Restoration - what does it have to do with Shadow Arts, at all? There's nothing shadowy or stealthy about this trait at all, it feels so random, like it's a Specter trait put in SA. I don't mind having support traits there, but this one is very hamfisted.

[Mincsk.6028]

I feel bad about sa changes. The cooldowns on deceptions are too long. They buff going in and out of stealth and then nerf the access to stealth, that seems weird to me. It's just not fun. I parked my thieves and gave the rifle to my mech....

Edited June 30, 2022 by Mincsk.6028

[Shift Focus.9083]

3 hours ago, Mincsk.6028 said:

I feel bad about sa changes. The cooldowns on deceptions are too long. They buff going in and out of stealth and then nerf the access to stealth, that seems weird to me. It's just not fun. I parked my thieves and gave the rifle to my mech....

Yup, Arenanet really killed dead eye and thief in general. If they don't like stealth just remove it from the game completely, honestly. Things are going downhill.

[kash.9213]

10 minutes ago, Shift Focus.9083 said:

Yup, Arenanet really killed dead eye and thief in general. If they don't like stealth just remove it from the game completely, honestly. Things are going downhill.

You can still build to stack stealth if you want to mask your map travel. They killed your deadeye maybe. 

[Xoranium.6481]

For me this is just a game killer, and tbh I never really spammed stealth or used it in a perma way ever. But now the only stealth I ever really used on steal and on heal are gone, these were only ever used to mitigate dmg and boost my survival so at least I had a chance. 

Ah well we all move on. Rip GW2

[Laosduude.1690]

Feels great with Deadeye WvW, more zipping around the area due to superspeed and good initiative gains. I don't use it at all for my full cele sc/p specter anymore, so I took deadly arts over SA, quite better actually because you condi bomb cheese with it.

[DeceiverX.8361]

15 hours ago, Laosduude.1690 said:

Feels great with Deadeye WvW, more zipping around the area due to superspeed and good initiative gains. I don't use it at all for my full cele sc/p specter anymore, so I took deadly arts over SA, quite better actually because you condi bomb cheese with it.

For any DE build not spamming camping stealth it's an insane buff.  Especially since Silent Scope is now giving 2 init per dodge.  It makes Trickery totally optional with the boons DE gives, and I'd argue D/P Daredevil running BD is in a similar boat, as you no longer need UC for cleansing cripple/chill due to Superspeed, and you get the damage boost from Lead Attacks back this way as well.

This change in truth was a good one on the conceptual level.  A lot of people might not see that, but it was.  Implementation might need a little bit of work, but this is one of the best reworks for a trait line the class has had in terms of design.

[Nyel.1843]

I think the only one they should have kept is Stealth for Steal. That felt iconic and should still be an option. 

[Fang.8291]

The Removal of the AoE Indicator on Spectre Shroud Skill 5 "Mind Shock" makes the blast component of the skill 

unnecessarily hard to use in situations where you want to line them up with Pistol 5 "Black Powder".

[saerni.2584]

I'd like to respond to a point that was sent to me via in-game mail, by someone who also blocked me so I couldn't respond. 

 

The gist of the mail I received was that stealth on steal as a minor trait is problematic for people who like to Cloak and Dagger into a Backstab with Core Steal.

 

My response: 

 

With the loss of the deception cooldown there is really no need to take SA for the above combination. However, should you want to use SA, the set up is to silently steal to target and then at the expiration of stealth time a CnD into a backstab. The combination does take more effort and I acknowledge this isn't ideal. 
 

My reasoning, bluntly, is that Anet has decided to dedicate enough of SA to "support" that it isn't viable to restore Stealth on Steal without making it a Minor. I can't, frankly, convince Anet to change that so, even if it isn't perfect and requires pressing buttons a little differently this is what is feasible in my mind. 
 

And, I'm very happy for people to disagree and post their own ideas. I'm only one person and I don't have all the answers. I'll even post an idea for someone else if they aren't (for reasons) able to post on the forums themselves. 

[WareWolf.6951]

I just want my old SA trait line back... That was the only way I enjoyed my thief and felt that the ability to step into / out of stealth made the class mechanic and fun to play. Didn't even WvW or PvP with it... 

[Ian.8340]

Yea, same. I wish they would revert the changes to SA. 😞

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 7/1/2022 at 11:48 PM, saerni.2584 said:

I'd like to respond to a point that was sent to me via in-game mail, by someone who also blocked me so I couldn't respond. 

 

The gist of the mail I received was that stealth on steal as a minor trait is problematic for people who like to Cloak and Dagger into a Backstab with Core Steal.

 

My response: 

 

With the loss of the deception cooldown there is really no need to take SA for the above combination. However, should you want to use SA, the set up is to silently steal to target and then at the expiration of stealth time a CnD into a backstab. The combination does take more effort and I acknowledge this isn't ideal. 
 

My reasoning, bluntly, is that Anet has decided to dedicate enough of SA to "support" that it isn't viable to restore Stealth on Steal without making it a Minor. I can't, frankly, convince Anet to change that so, even if it isn't perfect and requires pressing buttons a little differently this is what is feasible in my mind. 
 

And, I'm very happy for people to disagree and post their own ideas. I'm only one person and I don't have all the answers. I'll even post an idea for someone else if they aren't (for reasons) able to post on the forums themselves. 

Why do this though outside of forcing random dodges?

You're just wasting the benefits of actually getting stealth on steal since they're gonna eat the CnD and dodge roll after regardless.

To which I state I think forcing random dodges is bad design, applying that logic to all stealth access for all professions, particularly engi and ranger which have a similar 100-0 pattern.

[saerni.2584]

8 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

Why do this though outside of forcing random dodges?

You're just wasting the benefits of actually getting stealth on steal since they're gonna eat the CnD and dodge roll after regardless.

To which I state I think forcing random dodges is bad design, applying that logic to all stealth access for all professions, particularly engi and ranger which have a similar 100-0 pattern.

I'd say that it takes a lot of timing to avoid getting a random dodge (which is why it is harder to pull off) . That said, you are probably already in stealth before you steal, so the whole point is to close in before your stealth expires, regain initiative (assuming Trickery) and set up your CnD.

 

Baiting a dodge wouldn't be a bad outcome here. And if they double dodge you can really punish them after that. 
 

Or you can focus on taking down their initial defenses before stealthing yourself up for the combo above. 
 

I guess my point here is that it is an adjustment to one play style and not the death of it to have a stealth on steal Minor trait. And that, more so than stealth on heal (or even stealth duration bonus) is what makes the most sense to allow people with SA to consistently take advantage of the "entering/exiting stealth" traits on engage (with Steal).

[DeceiverX.8361]

5 hours ago, saerni.2584 said:

I'd say that it takes a lot of timing to avoid getting a random dodge (which is why it is harder to pull off) . That said, you are probably already in stealth before you steal, so the whole point is to close in before your stealth expires, regain initiative (assuming Trickery) and set up your CnD.

 

Baiting a dodge wouldn't be a bad outcome here. And if they double dodge you can really punish them after that. 
 

Or you can focus on taking down their initial defenses before stealthing yourself up for the combo above. 
 

I guess my point here is that it is an adjustment to one play style and not the death of it to have a stealth on steal Minor trait. And that, more so than stealth on heal (or even stealth duration bonus) is what makes the most sense to allow people with SA to consistently take advantage of the "entering/exiting stealth" traits on engage (with Steal).

 

Why would anyone already be in stealth before they steal playing OH dagger and using SA?  If you're already in stealth, you just run at them with superspeed and simply use CnD at the end of the cast, since CnD with the current iteration of SA is already initiative-positive.  This saves steal for its most meaningful instant interrupt and mobility which D/D will heavily rely on to maintain pressure and stay alive.

Stealth on steal denying CnD for D/D power creates a worse version of D/P considering Steal->Backstab->Shadow Shot->HS is strictly better than Steal->(wait)->CnD->Backstab->HS from both a damage and utility perspective while giving players more chances to counterplay D/D than it already provides.  Plus slowing down D/D means less usage of major benefits like boons from ToTC and Twin Fangs, as being brought below 90% during the "Idle in stealth" phase of the purported combo is extremely likely.

Condi P/D is the only real direct beneficiary here, as it does not use CnD specifically as a major source of damage unlike D/D since the backstab nerf, and it has its Shadow Strike/Repeater combo available outside of stealth during the revealed timer.

It makes no sense for the kit with the lowest amount of control and utility and already-struggling burst to have its damage slowed down, and other kits' burst damage access increased with safer play conditions (I.E. reliable, no-counter stealth from range) needing to burn fewer resources to do so.

The fact is that Stealth on Steal was not in any way essential to any kit combination, and actively makes it harder to play another.

Edited July 8, 2022 by DeceiverX.8361