The main takeaway message from these 25-30k dps auto attack builds

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

 I mean yeah the details don't matter. 

They never have because this isn't new. If it's overtuned, Anet will fix it. Game has not died because of unbalanced spec performance. If you play this game, this is something you accept as standard. It's not going away. 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

7 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Aoe-boost? What? Do you even play the game?

I already told you one of my guilds (which included players with fastest times on some of fractal CMs) has decided to play other stuff instead of indulging Anet following the patch. What more do you want?

MightyTeapot makes a living off the content he creates. MightyTeapot is fearing for his income and rightfully criticises the patch and design decisions at every opportunity (from what I know, not that I'm a subscriber or watch his content so...).

What is the name of guild ?

Teapot just takes the 20-40 dollars from each youtube video and enjoy the drama from the game :P.

Our tears , feed him !

(just put a glass with the label tears , and constandly drink from it)

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Karagee.6830]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

They never have because this isn't new. Game has not died because of unbalanced spec performance. 

20k=32k

2=3

1=99

#anewkindofmath

#makeithappenAnet

And please let's ignore some more the other 20 specs which got shafted, because context does. not. matter.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Karagee.6830]

2 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

What is the name of guild ?

Teapot just takes the 20-40 dollars from each youtube from each and enjoy the drama from the game :P.

 

It's a guild with a funny symbols, why do you care? Do you think I'm lying? If so, just ignore me and move on.

Ah yeah he only has 43k subscribers, those are rookie numbers.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Obtena.7952]

13 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

20k=32k

2=3

1=99

You got some math problems there. 

The fact remains that the things you are using as a premise to nerf this SPECIFIC instance of low effort build are not new and it's not even clear if they aren't intended either. If the build is overtuned, Anet will fix it but be assured, these LI builds existing aren't new. Getting some level of reasonable performance from a LI build is not some unique problem that needs to be fixed. 

I mean, somehow you decided the thread is about balancing ... it never was. We already know how balancing in this game works. The OP's point was never about balancing. His point was that these LI builds won't improve average player engagement in endgame content. I think that's wrong because that's a big barrier to people entering content AND people accepting them. Somehow you equates to a QQ about 32K mechanists. 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

4 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

It's a guild with a funny symbols, why do you care? Do you think I'm lying? If so, just ignore me and move on.

Did you try to world first and the scoudrel Teapot  beat you ?

Because more people joining hardcore stuff in your guild , with various apm , is a good thing , that this my circullar conversation

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Karagee.6830]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You got some math problems there. 

The fact remains that the things you are using as a premise to nerf this SPECIFIC instance of low effort build are not new and it's not even clear if they aren't intended either. If the build is overtuned, Anet will fix it but be assured, these LI builds existing aren't new. Getting some level of reasonable performance from a LI build is not some unique problem that needs to be fixed. 

I mean, somehow you decided the thread is about balancing ... it never was. We already know how balancing in this game works. The OP's point was never about balancing. 

So is this specific instance of low effort build the same in the more general context of class and  spec balance the same as others? Not unique, you say. Please provide an example so we can compare it to the overall class/spec balance and distribution.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

So is this specific instance of low effort build the same in the more general context of class and  spec balance the same as others? Not unique, you say. Please provide an example so we can compare it to the overall class/spec balance and distribution.

No it's not unique because Anet will adjust builds they judge as overtuned, whether they are LI builds or not. We know they do because they tell us in so in the patch notes when they do. You want examples when that happened? Great ... there are lots in the patch notes. This shouldn't even be a question players ask at this point ... as least not by the ones that know how the game works. 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Karagee.6830]

35 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No it's not unique because Anet will adjust builds they judge as overtuned, whether they are LI builds or not. We know they do because they tell us in so in the patch notes when they do. You want examples when that happened? Great ... there are lots in the patch notes. This shouldn't even be a question players ask at this point ... as least not by the ones that know how the game works. 

 

Hahaha, now you decided that LI and HI is not a relevant or desirable distinction. Moving the goalposts out of convenience as you go along?

You can do all the scenarios you want in your fairyland. Until one of those materialises (e.g. Anet crushes mechanist into oblivion) we will talk about the situation as it is now.

It is very reassuring that you know that a) Anet will nerf overtuned builds and b) Anet will do what they say. So far we have seen them buffing already overtuned specs (in relative terms to other specs if not absolute) and implementing designs that lead in the opposite direction compared to their stated goals in the patch notes, as this has been pointed out over and over in the comments. I do not know that, I do not vouch for someone who has done such a shoddy job, shows no accountability and does not admit his mistakes and honestly I do not believe they are capable of doing any better, let alone want to do better, because nothing they have said and written in the last 2 weeks leads me to believe that either is possible.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Obtena.7952]

37 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Hahaha, now you decided that LI and HI is not a relevant or desirable distinction. Moving the goalposts out of convenience as you go along?

 

Nothing is being moved. You asked me why this specific build isn't a unique situation. The answer is that Anet monitors all builds for how they may make changes to them.

Are you implying that for SOME reason, this particular build will somehow NOT be part of the dataset that Anet uses to determine what builds they are going to change? That wouldn't make sense would it. 

I mean, let's put this to rest ... we have 10 years of Anet doing this, regardless of what anyone wants to believe about how it works. That's not going to change because ONE build you think is somehow unique in the whole scheme of the game. 

What I do know ... these builds, regardless of how unbalanced they might be, are not new. The impacts they have on the game and players are not new. How they are monitored by Anet for change is not new. This particular build is not a unique case that somehow will evade any of these things. If this specific build doesn't change, then that will tell you ALOT about Anet's approach to the game and ALOT MORE about how your thinking may need to adjust to it if you want to have reasonable expectations for interacting with it. 

What IS new here ... people recognizing the value of these builds for game health, specifically endgame team content. 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Or you can find the  logs and see how the team actually thinks. Gems like buffing mirage staff  because they disliked axe, or making engi signets OP because they hate kits. The rifle changes feel broken because they are, because its some persons fanfic and they have the power to make it reality.

The veil had fallen, you just have to look to see the justifications. 

[Gajex.2386]

31 minutes ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

or making engi signets OP because they hate kits.

And because they don't care / lack the competence to fix pet ai. (Shift Signet). Yes, I'm going to harp on this any chance given.

[Raizel.8175]

4 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

[...]

Don't even try to argue with these people - it won't lead anywhere. Just look at how many pages of worthless discussion you've had with them. If people don't understand that having one build easily reach ~20k DPS in actual encounters without any effort while other, more complex builds struggle to even reach ~15k DPS in actual encounters, then these people are lost anyway. I mean, I could play a build that I actually enjoy playing, but why bother griefing my squad if Rifle Mechanist easily reaches 20k DPS on average?

[Obtena.7952]

17 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Don't even try to argue with these people - it won't lead anywhere.

True ... especially if you want to argue with those people about something they continually tell you they aren't going to argue with you about in the first place. The irony is that I'm more on topic than he is ... even though that's his main issue with my posts. 😆

Edited July 11, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

7 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Don't even try to argue with these people - it won't lead anywhere. Just look at how many pages of worthless discussion you've had with them. If people don't understand that having one build easily reach ~20k DPS in actual encounters without any effort while other, more complex builds struggle to even reach ~15k DPS in actual encounters, then these people are lost anyway. I mean, I could play a build that I actually enjoy playing, but why bother griefing my squad if Rifle Mechanist easily reaches 20k DPS on average?

Fine

But don't ever tell the casual to use LI builds to beat Soo won , mister raider , and later one when they use it , then you again blame them .

For the one hand Calling toxic for  demanding content to be nerfed , and not using solutions (LI builds) from the Raiders , and now you are calling them again toxic  , from using those spec ....

Spoiler

 

(if are a PvPer +WvWer you can cry about the spamm 1 spec ...but not from PvE ... where you should be happy to play with your arthitis friend ...

Common raiders...my loves ...just because teapot for several days was ahead of the rest you try to boycot his edge ? Why not use it ? You have used same tactics in the past with stacking

Common old gg you should had  allowed me to use macros and record SC builts  around the 1 button , 7 months ago, it would be more easier 😛 . Macros , wont betray you)

 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Obtena.7952]

18 hours ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Fine

But don't ever tell the casual to use LI builds to beat Soo won , mister raider , and later one when they use it , then you again blame them .

For the one hand Calling toxic for  demanding content to be nerfed , and not using solutions (LI builds) from the Raiders , and now you are calling them again toxic  , from using those spec ....

  Reveal hidden contents

 

(if are a PvPer +WvWer you can cry about the spamm 1 spec ...but not from PvE ... where you should be happy to play with your arthitis friend ...

Common raiders...my loves ...just because teapot for several days was ahead of the rest you try to boycot his edge ? Why not use it ? You have used same tactics in the past with stacking

Common old gg you should had  allowed me to use macros and record SC builts  around the 1 button , 7 months ago, it would be more easier 😛 . Macros , wont betray you)

 

 

Some people are just exhibiting classic meta pushing behaviour in this thread. It doesn't matter to them what the builds ACTUALLY do and how they ACTUALLY perform in someone's hands. For them, it's about control and the perceived effect that what other people play has on THEM. Look at the language being used:

"It affects everybody when people leave because they are dissatisfied that 1 specialisation does more damage afk than 20 others while masching buttons. This is why I'm here."

That's how meta pushers talk when they have the perception that builds they don't like threaten how THEY want everyone to play the game. They want people and Anet to buy into the fear of the game dying if the builds that offend them aren't removed from the game. 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[ThunderX.6591]

I didn't check the post for 2 days, and 5 more pages come up.

Time to answer a bit.

My main is ranger, i played Holo (now play mecha cause i like robot), renegade, Condi FB (yeah, the dps variant), plus random the other classes too and the only class i literally stopped playing was Warrior (berserker after they changed the F skill some years ago), so, to Karagee, i normally check a lot of dps numbers and experience a lot of classes, and have a decent knowledge of them all.
From the data provided in the post by LKEY.9567, FB are around 15% presence in 10 man contents, not 25%....... Virtuoso are around 10%.
A-net is trying to set more people to high level contents (raid and so on), you see it in the new "easy mode raid" they implemented with the 28/06 patch, and what classes casual players can use there? Piano key rotation class or some decent but easy to manage class who give some boons too in all that "top of the game" contents?
Mecha are used because can give alacrity with diviner build power (and you need 2 boons provider for alac and 2 for quickness), healer FB are used cause they give quickness (and you need 2 healer in any case), the rest is dps class (Virtuoso is the winner here, then the rest who give high dps damage) but the more "casual" people are starting them, more "easy class" will be used, we are talking about "casual", not the original 5%-7% of raids players elite.
And why all these things are happening now? Simple, cause we lost around 4k flat dps from the changes to banners, spirits, spot like skills plus the nerf to some traits that reduced damage to some specs even more than the starter 4k dps, and we get nothing to compensate it, so from 40k+ dps, we get sent to 36k+ and some classes reached even lower level as around 32k+, battling the same exact contents as before with some enemy even stronger now (enemy who use fury get the extra 5% bonus like us).
At page 6, Obtena understand that easy build are promoted now for high end contents (casual players don't like hard rotation stuff), and as i pointed before, A-net is trying to promote 10 man party massively, and the targets are "casual player", not the "elite" who are doing that contents for years, so obviously you need something easy to play and with a decent dps and option to have for more than 1 role, and Mecha is a decent fit for it (Renegade is a good fit too, but Mecha have a robot, and a lot of people like flashy robot).
And at the same page, Karagee continue to set at 32k (false) dps Mecha rifle, when i tested it and proven to him that Mecha rifle now do around 23k dps at the golem full boons and full condi active; i hoped that at least he remember the post he himself quoted too (and he need to read about "easy mode raid", the new mode A-net set with the 28/06 patch, where you get stronger the more you fail to kill a boss).
To get some info, EOD oversold all previous expansion, and the "face" of it is a "Robot", so the Mecha class obviously is at least in the top 3 top class (Cantha = high tecnology and Robot), and a lot of people that bought EOD play the class who better represent the expansion, i don't see a problem here, is people's choice, no? (i consider Virtuoso 1 of the 3 top too)
At page 8 Killthehealer set Teapot as a casual raider, so i think my points explained in this post stand good, and Karagee continue to say that people are leaving the game (PVE and i really want to see the real numbers about it), that Mecha get buffed (before patch 28/06 mecha was stronger respect how he was after it to tell the true (expecially on condi side), but for Karagee is the other way around, even if there are clear proof about it).
And Killthehealer nailed exactly the soulbeast nerf and the hot fix change, good. (elite skill soulbeast, apart for the extra dps personal bonus damage, was used as a bonus party damage to improve the dps of the party (like the shared sigil of the guardian) and was an usefull party skill (16 attack party bonus pre 28/06 to 3 attack party bonus post 28/06, add to it the personal number of attack totally nerfed to the ground (maybee even underground), the time reduction for using it and you get a useless skill now).

 

[Ashen.2907]

My guild has a significant number of older players who are never going to tuly master the mechanics of GW2 buildcraft and gameplay. The introduction of mechanist and the upgrade to engineer rifle mean that they feel as if they are contributing when doing strikes and even raids. They no longer feel as if they are being carried. They, on average, are managing 12-15k dps in strikes. This is significantly less than the more skilled players on more sophisticated builds in the same group. Overall they are having more fun and the more advanced players in the guild get a kick out of our friends enjoying instanced content more and not feeling pressured to hard carry people. Our guild instanced content groups fill more quickly, with fewer instances of having to fill the group with PUGs. Sure, if I mess up, one of them might out dps me, but that is more of an incentive to not mess up than anything else. When I have my A game I still outperform them by a pretty wide margin, just not as wide as before...and (and I cant overstate this) we are all having more fun than before.

Just my take. 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[Raizel.8175]

23 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

My guild has a significant number of older players who are never going to tuly master the mechanics of GW2 buildcraft and gameplay. The introduction of mechanist and the upgrade to engineer rifle mean that they feel as if they are contributing when doing strikes and even raids. They no longer feel as if they are being carried. They, on average, are managing 12-15k dps in strikes. This is significantly less than the more skilled players on more sophisticated builds in the same group. Overall they are having more fun and the more advanced players in the guild get a kick out of our friends enjoying instanced content more and not feeling pressured to hard carry people. Our guild instanced content groups fill more quickly, with fewer instances of having to fill the group with PUGs. Sure, if I mess up, one of them might out dps me, but that is more of an incentive to not mess up than anything else. When I have my A game I still outperform them by a pretty wide margin, just not as wide as before...and (and I cant overstate this) we are all having more fun than before.

Just my take. 

I get you - I really do, but buffing Rifle Mechanist to that extent heavily punishes mid-tier players - who make up the vast majority of the rading community - heavily. I don't mind easy to play builds, but there should at least be some downsides to pay attention to so people don't switch off their brains.

[Obtena.7952]

15 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

I get you - I really do, but buffing Rifle Mechanist to that extent heavily punishes mid-tier players - who make up the vast majority of the rading community - heavily. I don't mind easy to play builds, but there should at least be some downsides to pay attention to so people don't switch off their brains.

Except that's not true. No one is punished by these differences between classes, just like they never were in the past. The only way people are punished by the presence of a build is if someone ELSE decides to use the fact that the builds exist to manipulate players to changing how they want to play. 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Kuma.1503]

25 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

I get you - I really do, but buffing Rifle Mechanist to that extent heavily punishes mid-tier players - who make up the vast majority of the rading community - heavily. I don't mind easy to play builds, but there should at least be some downsides to pay attention to so people don't switch off their brains.

I don't understand how rifle mech punishes mid tier players. There are better ranged options out there after the nerf. Power SlB (longbow and Axe), Power/condi Virt, condi specter (also a very easy build for the record), condi scourge... 

All it takes is the bare minimum understanding of how to play your class in order to outperform lazy players auto attacking on Mech. 

In my raid group, I occasionally out dps our DPS mech on Quickness Catalyst. A build most people consider dead after the nerfs it got. 

I am out DPSing this god build everyone thinks is somehow optimal while simultaneously providing support to my group. 

That mech player isn't punishing me by existing, because I decided to put in the effort to learn my build, practice the rotation until it became muscle memory, and learn how to do mechanics. 

The issues people are complaining about here sound bad in theory, but in practice they're non-issues. 

The only overperforming mechanist builds right now are the support varients. This build crowds out other alacrity support options because it doesn't have the harsh built in trade-offs other builds have. (Tempest having to give up stab to give regen/vigor and having to give up heal on auras to give alac for example). This build should be toned down or, ideally, other builds like Alac tempest buffed/reworked to compete with it. 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Ashen.2907]

17 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

I get you - I really do, but buffing Rifle Mechanist to that extent heavily punishes mid-tier players - who make up the vast majority of the rading community - heavily. I don't mind easy to play builds, but there should at least be some downsides to pay attention to so people don't switch off their brains.

I am one of those mid-tier players and dont feel particularly punished. I still out perform the people I mentioned in my previous post so I am not sure why I should feel punished because the gap is a bit smaller.

[Apolo.5942]

On 7/3/2022 at 1:30 AM, mythical.6315 said:

This must be your first MMO. 

No my first MMO was World of Warcraft a couple of decades ago, you know, when it was the biggest mmo in the world. It had 2 key features, you could completelly automate your rotation, and your UI was completely customizable.

Both features this game never had, and it shows.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

22 hours ago, Apolo.5942 said:

No my first MMO was World of Warcraft a couple of decades ago, you know, when it was the biggest mmo in the world. It had 2 key features, you could completelly automate your rotation, and your UI was completely customizable.

Both features this game never had, and it shows.

I'd like to see some decent controller support that can switch between cursor and action camera modes more fluidly.

Also analog movement so I can walk or run with just my stick.

Edited June 5 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Purple Effects.2503]

On 6/4/2024 at 11:43 PM, Apolo.5942 said:

No my first MMO was World of Warcraft a couple of decades ago, you know, when it was the biggest mmo in the world. It had 2 key features, you could completelly automate your rotation, and your UI was completely customizable.

Both features this game never had, and it shows.

It also had skillsets which were far far larger than GW2s

Macros were removed from WoW in later life, concerning customisation WoW didn’t have different weapon sets based on weapons. It’s a very different game realistically and had tools to fit what it offered

gw2 is a game with 5 abilities and 5 utilities, WoW was a game that managed to reach staggering numbers such as over 50 abilities. Rotations In MoP reached such points even top players in the game cut abilities out of its rotation and took DPs losses in macro binds for the sake of pressing less. 

there’s no point having the abilities in the first place. If you’re going to automate the rotation to be a flashy auto attack chain even WoW learnt this quickly following MoP.

Rotations don’t need to be automated, nor do they need to be easy mode. Fundamentally regardless of rotation size in most mmorpgs the majority of the damage comes from a much smaller number of abilities and use of the others just adds the extras in terms of maximisation.

It’s using abilities correctly in the heat of a fight which is generally where players underperform. Not their ability to memerise a rotation. Muscle memory will make any rotation easy realistically.