Please anet dont forget vindicator exists

[Obtena.7952]

14 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

Sry but the comunity isnt extremely meta, in fact its the other way around, theres lots of pwople criing about how dificult it is to enter raids, build pj, earn gold, etc etc, well in my times of raiding i saw at least 3 comanders doing trainings every day and almost at any time, i did so myself, and with my clan, I learned that its a waste of my time and my effort.

SC gives you meta builds for every class, why? because if you have 7 wings to raid and only 1 hour to play a day or 2 you want to get things done and on to another thing, the more a build is optimized and the better the players do their job the easyer and faster itll be.

Every player can create a scuad and put on a tag to lead, but oh surprise they dont do it, i cant talk for everyone but most people want you to do all the job wile they enter with a soldier exotic gear that they got god knows were, and then you see VG running after them and them paniking, like... is that my fault? is it my fault if i tell them their gear is bad and they should look at sc page, and then they call me elitist, toxic, thanks for nothing etc etc?

The meta is not just a forced thing we GODS force randoms to use, its the easyest, most efficient builds, that someone has spend days to theoricraft for us so we can just build it and go to raids instead of being weeks thinking for a solution of healing dps or boon lacking, at least some respect is due.

Lastly, sry to say but there are low intensity builds that will get you inside pug groups easily, and people still cry about it, while we cry because there are classes that cant compete, a vindi might have 37k dmg, with low cc no utility etc, wile virtuoso makes 40k tons of cc and so mich utility it drowns in it, let me ask you, whose cry is because of selfishness and childlish and wich is made for diversity and to make a better game for everyone?

 

I don't get this response to my post. Whether the comminity is 'extreme meta' is not being discussed. I mean, even if the community is 'not extreme meta' ... then you have to agree the argument that Vindicator NEEDS competitive DPS to compete with top DPS specs in this 'very not extreme meta community' is absurd in the first place. If Vindicator needs more DPS, it's NOT simply because top DPS specs have more DPS than Vindicator does. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Zaret.1450]

13 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't get this response to my post. Whether the comminity is 'extreme meta' is not being discussed. I mean, even if the community is 'not extreme meta' ... then you have to agree the argument that Vindicator NEEDS competitive DPS to compete with top DPS specs is absurd in the first place. 

Ok i could make a huge paragraph, sry i talk too much, but better keep it short.

It doesnt need competitive dps, but it would be the easiest way to make it compete because it lacks everywere, to get utility, cc amd stuff it would need a shiro rework and archie and gs adjustments, incresing its numbers is the easiest way.

[Zaret.1450]

also i think rev mains, me included, have some kind of trauma pdps wise, like... too many years we just didnt have dmg

[Aeolus.3615]

TDLR, more metas need to apear  towards specific avaliable classes nearby just like we had in gw1... players need to adapt more , but meanwhile some classes that ocupy the "must use in this path mandatory" w/o possible outliers need to be revised, cause that is simply a bad design, some classes might be way to much meta....

Rev<specialization> squad soon!

Edit: i  was about to say warrior specialization group but that would lead to a party full of banners looking at each other.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Fueki.4753]

23 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

i was about to say warrior specialization group but that would lead to a party full of banners looking at each other.

Does anyone even use those napkins on a stick anymore, after Arenanet obliterated the unique buffs with no real compensation?

Edited July 22, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Aeolus.3615]

2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Does anyone even use those napkins on a stick anymore, after Arenanet obliterated the unique buffs with no real compensation?

All mighty warriors use their banners on the very brave stare contest!!!

Edited July 22, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Angesombre.4630]

Revenant has lost a lot either by nerfing, changing the game or by pure selfishness, laziness of some developer to try to understand the class and its functioning. If you want absolutely any nerf in RNG mod just leave guard, necro and engineer. There will be less balancing problem if you don't want to do things right. If it's just to please the RP it's probably a success, in every other aspect it's a failure at the same time play the classes you develop without the command with 0 cd and try the real content not the starting area. Yes I will be told again it is playable, ok but it is a failure.

[soul.9651]

17 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, that's not what 'it's like saying'. I never said Vindicator wasn't a pDPS spec. I'm saying it's unlikely to be buffed as a pDPS choice for Revenants to use in optimal teams. Reasons why have been provided. 

 

I mean, if the problem is that Vindicator isn't good for teaming, DPS isn't the answer because it's simply unrealistic that Vindicator actually get buffed that much DPS just for that reason.

 

The problem I have with threads like these is that they try to justify getting more DPS because they don't 'compete' with top DPS specs yet they claim they aren't asking for meta level DPS buffs which is the only thing that will 'compete' with those top DPS specs. 

Ok, what ever reasons you provided still havent convinced ANYONE in this thread that you are right seeing everyone else's responses, and anet needs to listen to a majority, not a one person.

 

Secondly vindicator as dps option rn is a super selfish dps, which means it must do that competitive dps since its the whole idea where it specializes, and the heal build at pve doesnt work ANYWHERE since it cant provide any of 2 major boons aka quickness or alac, so that part needs to be reworked entirely aswell..

 

And lastly vindicator rn is at the bottom as dps, one of the lowest dps and the pick rates at the entire game... So i just dont see why they cant buff vindicator at this point.. all i want is for it not to be completly useless when other people play the meta specs and know what they are doing at this game. There is like 5-7k or even bigger dps difference not to mention some of the meta builds are fully ranged which puts vindicator even in a bigger disadvantage..

And looking at untamed or slb as an example just shows that they can fix those numbers, plus speaking about untamed when it was at the pre buff stage(literaly the same situation as vind is rn),would you still be saying that untamed doesnt need any buffs either?? (And look what they did, they boosted those numbers through the roof)

Plus they can always play it safe and buff the spec slowly so it doesnt overperform, and at this point even a smallest buffs would be at least something, however the spec needs way more than just that..

Edited July 23, 2022 by soul.9651

[Aeolus.3615]

@soul.9651 thats the thing, with viktor patched on Arch back u are never seen as  100% selfish dps, u have a "support forced", with possibility of a 3rd legend with another heal and more support or defensive skills, no matter how much zerker/assassin stats ur using u still provide pseudo support and one of the reason i feel viktor elite skill is stupid anyway in which viktor elite should be offensive IMO as increase dps and sturdiness while ur health gets lower, just screw the freaking boons out of it.

If u want a better DPS role for Alliance the trade off would be less  team support from Viktor  (i am actually ok with this, this is more hurting class overall gameplay then being the reason why class is picked and changing the elite skills to a be boost to dps and sturdiness while ur health becomes lower could be a good thing that could be the DPS momentum with a very good and strong trage off in terms of balance).

Another issue with Vindicator is players go for full damage spec or minstrell, they always min max one legend or another, when setting up the usage for both legends since their stats conflict, viktor needs stats with healing power and probabaly bon duration and Arch needs power stats, mixing both make u bad at both.

 

TDLR: Viktor dependency on support stats is the issue with Alliances, Alliances need less boons and more woosh with the blade.

 

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Obtena.7952]

 

Quote

 vindicator as dps option rn is a super selfish dps, which means it must do that competitive dps since its the whole idea where it specializes, and the heal build at pve doesnt work ANYWHERE since it cant provide any of 2 major boons aka quickness or alac, so that part needs to be reworked entirely aswell..

Being 'super selfish' DPS doesn't mean it needs to do competitive DPS in teams. It's actually the opposite. Conceptually, Super selfish DPS isn't about co-operation and sharing; it's selfish. I guess Anet took that to the practical level also because these kinds of selfish DPS builds tend to do poorly in teams. To be good selfish DPS builds, they are typically already front loaded with all the DPS buffs that a team could offer, so they don't benefit much from the collective team buff. Reaper suffers from the exact same thing. 

I know this will rub you the wrong way but I would even go so far as to nerf self buffs on Vindicator so they have bandwidth in the class to improve it's team DPS. They simply don't have anywhere they can 'add' DPS to Vindicator for being a team without affecting it when it's not.

Quote

And lastly vindicator rn is at the bottom as dps, one of the lowest dps and the pick rates at the entire game...

It's not a problem that Vindicator is last. Someone has to be. Being last is not a reason to buff Vindicator DPS.  Besides, the competition for getting a team as a DPSer is too full. It's not the right approach to make Vindicator attractive to a team.

1 hour ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

@soul.9651 thats the thing, with viktor patched on Arch back u are never seen as  100% selfish dps, u have a "support forced", with possibility of a 3rd legend with another heal and more support or defensive skills, no matter how much zerker/assassin stats ur using u still provide pseudo support and one of the reason i feel viktor elite skill is stupid anyway in which viktor elite should be offensive IMO as increase dps and sturdiness while ur health gets lower, just screw the freaking boons out of it.

If u want a better DPS role for Alliance the trade off would be less  team support from Viktor  (i am actually ok with this, this is more hurting class overall gameplay then being the reason why class is picked and changing the elite skills to a be boost to dps and sturdiness while ur health becomes lower could be a good thing that could be the DPS momentum with a very good and strong trage off in terms of balance).

Another issue with Vindicator is players go for full damage spec or minstrell, they always min max one legend or another, when setting up the usage for both legends since their stats conflict, viktor needs stats with healing power and probabaly bon duration and Arch needs power stats, mixing both make u bad at both.

 

TDLR: Viktor dependency on support stats is the issue with Alliances, Alliances need less boons and more woosh with the blade.

 

 

Good reply. I don't even think removing something from the support side would give wiggle room to make Vindicator attractive to a team in terms of a pure DPS position. 

See, that's the problem with the idea in this thread. Being more team friendly with the current spec design by adding a whole bunch of DPS to it is just unlikely to be a solution here. There are lots of reasons why. Some people just want to ignore these reasons and just get more DPS, probably because they don't actually care about solving the problem the OP is talking about. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[X Anthony A.8409]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

Being 'super selfish' DPS doesn't mean it needs to do competitive DPS in teams. It's actually the opposite. Conceptually, Super selfish DPS isn't about co-operation and sharing; it's selfish. I guess Anet took that to the practical level also because these kinds of selfish DPS builds tend to do poorly in teams. To be good selfish DPS builds, they are typically already front loaded with all the DPS buffs that a team could offer, so they don't benefit much from the collective team buff. Reaper suffers from the exact same thing. 

I know this will rub you the wrong way but I would even go so far as to nerf self buffs on Vindicator so they have bandwidth in the class to improve it's team DPS. They simply don't have anywhere they can 'add' DPS to Vindicator for being a team without affecting it when it's not.

It's not a problem that Vindicator is last. Someone has to be. Being last is not a reason to buff Vindicator DPS.  Besides, the competition for getting a team as a DPSer is too full. It's not the right approach to make Vindicator attractive to a team.

Good reply. I don't even think removing something from the support side would give wiggle room to make Vindicator attractive to a team in terms of a pure DPS position. 

See, that's the problem with the idea in this thread. Being more team friendly with the current spec design by adding a whole bunch of DPS to it is just unlikely to be a solution here. There are lots of reasons why. Some people just want to ignore these reasons and just get more DPS, probably because they don't actually care about solving the problem the OP is talking about. 

Yes nerf the class because its definitely played quite a bit for it being too strong good answer, maybe then less will play it then it already being well played by not many good thing we should nerf a dead elite spec :) 

[Obtena.7952]

36 minutes ago, X Anthony A.8409 said:

Yes nerf the class because its definitely played quite a bit for it being too strong good answer, maybe then less will play it then it already being well played by not many good thing we should nerf a dead elite spec 🙂

I'm going to throw this back at you then ... where is your suggestion for how Anet actually increases Vindicator DPS to be competitive for teaming? Give it Fury/25 might/quickness and full vuln stacks? Oh it's already got all those things with 100% uptime. Strike 1. Give GS more DPS? GS is ALREADY one of the HIGHEST DPS weapons that exists in the game and it hits 5 targets.  Strike 2. 

How much DPS is needed for Vindicator to be competitive DPS? I don't even think you know. 

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Angesombre.4630]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm going to throw this back at you then ... where is your suggestion for where Anet actually increases Vindicator DPS to be competitive for teaming? How much DPS is needed for that?

 

I feel like I'm going to regret it, it's not because Anet doesn't say anything that we can't give our opinion, and ask to improve the profession. When they changed the resistance in the game, if the players hadn't asked him to add Resolution on mallyx, it wouldn't have been there, he hadn't even seen what their change had caused. 
So asking for more Dps and buffs with the change of some useless trait is not a bad thing, if we just rely on Anet to realize that it's not working he won't do anything except nerfing even more.

[Mike.7983]

All we can do is hope anet reads our request to fix this class and adjust stats and skills to allow it to perform competative dps, I dont mean 40k+ meta like mech did for a bit, just enough your not being kicked for being a low dps burden.  Make power bench around 35k, fix stun mid air, adjust energy costs, fix elite noodle condi spear on a power build.  More cc/heals and fix janky hammer.  Not gonna argue with 1 of the above posters as apparently they reported for harassment on my account.

[Obtena.7952]

19 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

I feel like I'm going to regret it, it's not because Anet doesn't say anything that we can't give our opinion, and ask to improve the profession. When they changed the resistance in the game, if the players hadn't asked him to add Resolution on mallyx, it wouldn't have been there, he hadn't even seen what their change had caused. 
So asking for more Dps and buffs with the change of some useless trait is not a bad thing, if we just rely on Anet to realize that it's not working he won't do anything except nerfing even more.

Well, hold on. I'm not saying people shouldn't give Anet feedback and I'm not saying fixing useless traits with things like more DPS is a bad thing either so I'm not sure what your reply to me is relevant to my post you quoted. 

The questions I asked in the post you quoted are VERY relevant to this thread, but I don't see answers to them. How much DPS is needed to make Vindicator competitive? Where does Anet add that DPS to the spec?

Edited July 23, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[X Anthony A.8409]

37 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm going to throw this back at you then ... where is your suggestion for how Anet actually increases Vindicator DPS to be competitive for teaming? Give it Fury/25 might/quickness and full vuln stacks? Oh it's already got all those things with 100% uptime. Strike 1. Give GS more DPS? GS is ALREADY one of the HIGHEST DPS weapons that exists in the game.  Strike 2. 

How much DPS is needed for Vindicator to be competitive DPS? I don't even think you know. 

 

you clearly don't know anything about the spec then if your saying its one of the Highest dps weapons, Greatsword for vindicator skill 5 its most powerful skill eternity's requiem struggles to hit 50k sometimes unless very large hitbox then it can hit for maybe 70-80k meanwhile axe on soulbeast can hit for 120k yea totally one of the highest's, i dont think you even know what the classes damage is by the way you answered
PS: it's ok most of us that play rev will probably forget the spec exists like how herald was for a long time 

Edited July 23, 2022 by X Anthony A.8409

[Obtena.7952]

11 minutes ago, X Anthony A.8409 said:

you clearly don't know anything about the spec 

This thread isn't a discussion about what I know because clearly, that matters little to anyone anyways. ...and yes, if you look at the base stats on the GS, it's one of the highest. I'm talking about it's coefficients. I don't need to know what the class DPS is (even if I did, people would just say it's wrong aways) ... I"M not the one claiming it needs to be changed. 

Again I'm asking YOU or anyone else how much DPS Vindicator needs to be competitive and where to add that on Vindicator. There is no discussion about Anet buffing DPS on Vindicator if people can't answer these questions. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[X Anthony A.8409]

29 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

This thread isn't a discussion about what I know because clearly, that matters little to anyone anyways. ...and yes, if you look at the base stats on the GS, it's one of the highest. I'm talking about it's coefficients. 

Again I'm asking YOU how much DPS you need to be competitive and where to add that on Vindicator. There is no discussion about Anet buffing DPS on Vindicator if people can't answer these questions. 

coefficients wise ranger double axe hits way harder so clearly that's not true but either way speculation if the spec remains the same or gets worse it will not be played and its played very little for good reason. Part of the reason's Vindicator is not played is it feels bad to play too clunky, too many bugs, weak non existing elite skills and alot of randomness in damage unless on very very large hitbox so who wants to play that? not many 

Edited July 23, 2022 by X Anthony A.8409

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, X Anthony A.8409 said:

coefficients wise ranger double axe hits way harder so clearly that's not true but either way speculation if the spec remains the same or gets worse it will not be played and its played very little for good reason. Part of the reason its not played is it feels bad to play too clunky, too many bugs, weak non existing elite skills and alot of randomness in damage unless on very very large hitbox so who wants to play that? not many 

So I'm asking you how much DPS Vindicator needs to be competitive and where it should be added on the spec ... and you want to have an argument about weapon coefficients. 😆(and for the record, I didn't say GS was the highest, I just said it was one of the highest. It's certainly not low so)

Get back on topic here. These references you make to bugs and clunky play are problems not related to what we are talking about here. IF Vindciator needs DPS to be competitive, how much DPS is that and where on the spec is it added? These shouldn't be hard questions to answer if people are SO certain Vindicator needs DPS added to it to be competitive against top pDPS classes. 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

2 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

@soul.9651 thats the thing, with viktor patched on Arch back u are never seen as  100% selfish dps, u have a "support forced", with possibility of a 3rd legend with another heal and more support or defensive skills, no matter how much zerker/assassin stats ur using u still provide pseudo support and one of the reason i feel viktor elite skill is stupid anyway in which viktor elite should be offensive IMO as increase dps and sturdiness while ur health gets lower, just screw the freaking boons out of it.

If u want a better DPS role for Alliance the trade off would be less  team support from Viktor  (i am actually ok with this, this is more hurting class overall gameplay then being the reason why class is picked and changing the elite skills to a be boost to dps and sturdiness while ur health becomes lower could be a good thing that could be the DPS momentum with a very good and strong trage off in terms of balance).

Another issue with Vindicator is players go for full damage spec or minstrell, they always min max one legend or another, when setting up the usage for both legends since their stats conflict, viktor needs stats with healing power and probabaly bon duration and Arch needs power stats, mixing both make u bad at both.

 

TDLR: Viktor dependency on support stats is the issue with Alliances, Alliances need less boons and more woosh with the blade.

 

 

Or they could just rework the traits so we could choose either Arch or Viktor, one boosts your personal dps, other supp capabilities, because rn as you mentioned it just doesnt work. Rn you get mediocre dps spec and the "forced support" part just doesnt compensate anything, most of the time if everything is optimized in your group, you have no need to swap and swapping just punishes you, and the only place where swapping to the defencive legend is usefull is either solo content or the group itself is unorganized. Same goes to the supp build, i cant even imagine why anyone would ever swap to the offencive legend if they try to play supp vindicator. I mean there still is some time till the next balance patch for anet to figure out how to make vindicator work but rn both dps and supp versions are just suffering..

[Mike.7983]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So I'm asking you how much DPS Vindicator needs to be competitive and where it should be added on the spec ... and you want to have an argument about weapon coefficients. 😆(and for the record, I didn't say GS was the highest, I just said it was one of the highest. It's certainly not low so)

Get back on topic here. These references you make to bugs and clunky play ... we aren't talking about that here. IF Vindciator needs DPS to be competitive, how much DPS is that and where on the spec is it added?

 

 

Well since meta is about 39-40k, vind is around 25k? Would assume a 10k buff to be put in the "competative" bracket, to least not be a burden, as for where/how? speed up skills, add more damage co-efficiency to most greatsword moves.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Mike.7983

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

Or they could just rework the traits so we could choose either Arch or Viktor, one boosts your personal dps, other supp capabilities, because rn as you mentioned it just doesnt work. 

Wait a minute ... that's already how the spec works. I mean, we have two traits that result in +25% DPS that can be proc'ed 100% uptime. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Mike.7983]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Wait a minute ... that's already how the spec works. I mean, we have two traits that result in +25% DPS in the right conditions. 

25% buff is not enough to buff weak skills, you can give power a 100% buff through traits but when each skill is weak buffing weak fixes nothing, boost all damage up across the board then maybe 25% will feel impactful.

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Mike.7983 said:

Well since meta is about 39-40k, vind is around 25k? Would assume a 10k buff to be put in the "competative" bracket, to least not be a burden, as for where/how? speed up skills, add more damage co-efficiency to most greatsword moves.

Right ... so Anet is going to boost Vindicator DPS and unprecedented 40% with skill execution speeds and damage co-efficients just for people who want to use it in optimal teams. I'm going to let that sink in a bit and recommend people review some game history, but not for my benefit. 

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Buran.3796]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Wait a minute ... that's already how the spec works. I mean, we have two traits that result in +25% DPS in the right conditions. 

   In the rigth conditions power Vindi does 2/3 of the damage of condi WB, which also has an extra +50% armor,  two dodges, team stability and some aegis to share.

   The real fail  of this thread is people refusing to accept that game designers don't play Rev and they expect Rev players to move to Guardian, Engineer or something useful.

   That's all folks, just play another class or even better try other games!