Please anet dont forget vindicator exists

[Nephalem.8921]

54 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

How can you be casual at your 9 to 5 JOB?

All that is required is basic math, not playing the game a lot.

If they dont balance with gameplay in mind or math but use their feelings instead or visuals. solar hates dps rotations so there is that. also a balance dev and you can see that because he is responsible for virtuoso and mechanist. face -> keyboard specs.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Idk guys but if i started playing again u can bet i would switch class cuz rev in current state feels like a snail in gameplay and the damage numbers.. leave a lot to desire. Willbender is better herald. For theme theres reaper cuz they forgot that rev was supposed to call upon other stuff than just heroes (which is what i picked it for else - having a more dark based heavy class). For let me watch netflix while i "play" mechanist. Id give ele a try but it is in same state of constant nerfs like rev so better to avoid as well.

Anyway tell me again why vindi has whole 6 dodge traits in it traitline?

[Obtena.7952]

16 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

What?! Vindicator is the power dps choice, BY DESIGN. Did you even read what the traits do or what the elite weapon does? 

If Vindicator was THE pDPS choice for Revenant, what is the complaint the OP has? it's unlikely to be competitive as the pDPS choice, because of the dual legend design ... but if you want a subpar pDPS platform, keep proclaiming Vind is where it should be. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[phokus.8934]

16 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

What?! Vindicator is the power dps choice, BY DESIGN. Did you even read what the traits do or what the elite weapon does? 

You can't go by what he says.  He stays in pve starting zones all day not experiencing or understanding the game.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

2 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

PLease. Thats why i shouldnt read the forums. Those benches are from 2!!!!!!!! patches ago. And power ren didnt lose just 1k dps from the battle scar nerf. it lost more like 3k+ dps and was a 33k dps at best spec after that. The battle scar nerf murdered it. On huge. sub 30k on normal sized.

that vindicator bench was also pre patch on massive hitbox which doesnt even exist in the game. 

Here. that was vindicator on normal sized hitbox. its even lower than that on small hitbox which doesnt even exist in golem area. thats 200 dps ahead of power untamed btw.

Currently its sitting on 32k-33k huge at best with 0 cc. sub 30k on small. its trash.

And this is dps alone btw. Single dodge which is required for dps alone would disqualify it from content but it does almost 0 cc on top. its extremely bad.

I'm confused now.  It looks like you're just saying whatever comes to mind with no coherent goal.  Anyway, the reduction in battle scars damage is only a factor if still running Dance of Death, which power builds don't do anymore.  They run swift termination, which gives a 20% damage boost below 50% enemy health.  That is the more effective trait now, which means that the loss in DPS for power renegade would be substantially less than 3k.  

Darn it if I can't find somebody benchmarking Swift Termination power renegade, though.  

[Scoobaniec.9561]

1 hour ago, phokus.8934 said:

You can't go by what he says.  He stays in pve starting zones all day not experiencing or understanding the game.

Tbh charr starting zone is one of best maps in game tbh. HoT maps are still my favorite in terms of desing and PoF being the worst (i hate sand)

[soul.9651]

6 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I'm confused now.  It looks like you're just saying whatever comes to mind with no coherent goal.  Anyway, the reduction in battle scars damage is only a factor if still running Dance of Death, which power builds don't do anymore.  They run swift termination, which gives a 20% damage boost below 50% enemy health.  That is the more effective trait now, which means that the loss in DPS for power renegade would be substantially less than 3k.  

Darn it if I can't find somebody benchmarking Swift Termination power renegade, though.  

What he says about the vindicator is absolutly true, after those new balance patches its sitting at 32k benchmark at best, and its on large hitbox too... Your example was the old benchmark vindicator had which was still not as good as bladesworn rn which makes it look even worse..  and you commenting here like u never tried vindicator on any late game content like raids, strike cms, or fract cms.. the difference between vindicator and any other (meta!!!!) Pdps spec is not even close at the moment. 

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by soul.9651

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

1 minute ago, soul.9651 said:

What he says about the vindicator is absolutly true, after those new balance patches its sitting at 32k benchmark at best, and its on large hitbox too... Your example was the old benchmark vindicator had which was still not as good as bladesworn rn which makes it look even worse..  and you commenting here like u never tried vindicator on any late game content like raids, strike cms, or fract cms.. the difference between vindicator and any other (meta!!!!) Pdps spec is not even close at the moment. 

I've only done a few strikes with it.  Of course, I also didn't say that vindicator was particularly good.  In fact, my entire point in posting in this thread is to show how, by comparison, power renegade does a whole lot more while sacrificing very little in the realm of DPS.  Vind's toolkit makes it better at killing hordes of weak mobs, and that's about it.  

[Nephalem.8921]

6 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I'm confused now.  It looks like you're just saying whatever comes to mind with no coherent goal.  Anyway, the reduction in battle scars damage is only a factor if still running Dance of Death, which power builds don't do anymore.  They run swift termination, which gives a 20% damage boost below 50% enemy health.  That is the more effective trait now, which means that the loss in DPS for power renegade would be substantially less than 3k.  

Darn it if I can't find somebody benchmarking Swift Termination power renegade, though.  

People benched it after the patch. it was really bad. battle scar nerf wasnt the only nerf that patch and it was a lot stronger than swift termination.

you actually posted the bench from 3 patches ago...

this was 2 patches ago. niche tier since it requires a massive hitbox. then some other nerfs and battle scar nerf happened which nerfed it below reaper. currently it would be troll tier.

[soul.9651]

21 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I've only done a few strikes with it.  Of course, I also didn't say that vindicator was particularly good.  In fact, my entire point in posting in this thread is to show how, by comparison, power renegade does a whole lot more while sacrificing very little in the realm of DPS.  Vind's toolkit makes it better at killing hordes of weak mobs, and that's about it.  

And its sad... I rly wanna this spec to be more.. not just just rp open world mob killer

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, soul.9651 said:

And its sad... I rly wanna this spec to be more.. not just just rp open world mob killer

Tbh after they have repeatedly boosted condi above power. It will likely be a RP open world mob killer even if they did buff its damage. 

 

[soul.9651]

7 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Tbh after they have repeatedly boosted condi above power. It will likely be a RP open world mob killer even if they did buff its damage. 

 

Honestly at least at fractals and old cms dps boost would fix it, ofc im talking about comps with good boon output and people who can actually dps, if dps is slow or bad in general than obviously condi builds will be far above. At strike cms sadly it probably will never be meta since there condi and ranged builds will always be on top. And im just not sure about raids, but probably on bosses where power has its advantage (like kc or ca) with dps boost i feel like vindicator could do competitive dps too(like good slb or bladesworn player can perform rn). So maybe not everywhere but dps boost for vindicator would definetely help it to see more play at the end game content.

[otto.5684]

17 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

People benched it after the patch. it was really bad. battle scar nerf wasnt the only nerf that patch and it was a lot stronger than swift termination.

you actually posted the bench from 3 patches ago...

this was 2 patches ago. niche tier since it requires a massive hitbox. then some other nerfs and battle scar nerf happened which nerfed it below reaper. currently it would be troll tier.

Vindicator used to hit 36k+ on large hitbox right before 6/28. However, this is neither here nor there. The question is where it stands now and that it should hit the same against all hitboxes.

[otto.5684]

On 7/6/2022 at 2:22 PM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Well, you just shoved a lot of words in my mouth.  To answer your question: no, and stop making things up.  I'm not sure how it is after the update, but power renegade used to hit for around 36k DPS:

 

You could take some away after the Dance of Death Nerf, but that meant it just hit around 35k.  Vindicator, meanwhile, hit for... 36k:

 

Basically, vindicator trades the toolbox, versatility, and safety of the renegade for... 500 DPS?  Maybe 1k DPS on current numbers?  If I go into raids again, and I insist on bringing power rev, I'm going with Renegade on most bosses because I will need to either CC hard, or engage at a distance due to mechanics.  Vind is only better against damage sponges.  

Honestly, even if it does 3-4k more damage, this would not change. Yes, power Renegade will always have an edge due to range and AI damage from utilities. The trade-off was always burst vs sustained damage and better aoe, wither it is worth it or not is a different story. And ya, Renegade is much safer to play, and brings extremely heavy CC.

 

I still stand by the changes I mentioned earlier: normalize GS5, reduce GS4 to 8 secs and dps output between 70-90 percentile among all power builds.

[Arolandis.8360]

I want the second dodge

It's not as op as mirage cloak where you can use any skills you want during it

Edit: Just found out you can't even use it while stunned like with mirage cloak. Just another "Ugh" I'm feeling playing this kitten spec.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Arolandis.8360

[Obtena.7952]

On 7/4/2022 at 2:17 PM, soul.9651 said:

I mean havent you seen a problem with untamed aswell before they recently buffed it? Its the same story, noone is gonna play vindicator at content like strike cms or raids while other far better options exist. And yes it definetely can work as power dps if they boosted the numbers, people can have different opinions and thats fine, but if you personaly cant see how it could work it doesnt mean that other people cant figure it out how it actually could work and right now only the numbers are stoping vindicator from performing well. Unless you are looking at it from open world player perspective where ofc you wouldnt see any problem because there no matter what class or  build you play everything will work..

Here is a fact that will blow you away. It's not necessary for vindicator to be competitive in team content if better options exist. Here are few reasons why:

1. It never has been necessary. There are dozens of specs that aren't competitive in team content in this game, since always. This is not an exception that Anet needs to fix. It's a standard that players need to recognize. 

2. The dual legend is unlikely to be 'fixed' so that it's competitive in a team setting while providing BOTH competitive capability offensively or defensively. You're going to point me to a handful of specs that sort of do both those things. That's OK ... I'm going to point you to WAY more that don't. Aiming for the OP'ed state of these exceptional specs is a BAD thing for the class and the game. 

3. It's not unreasonable to regard an espec as an open world focused spec. That doesn't exclude anyone from actually using it with a team that doesn't have a problem with that. In otherwords ... there are OTHER choices you have not considered if Vindicator is the spec you want to use in team content. 

I'm not saying it CAN'T work as a competitive team member if it's boosted; anything can be boosted to do that. I'm saying it unlikely be boosted just to make it 'work' as a competitive team member for the reasons I state above. it's just not necessary for Anet to make EVERY spec compete for a team spot.  

In fact, I would argue the spec should be more inline with its theme duality of selfish offense and selfless defense ... and that's the opposite of making it competitive for a specific role in a team. 

You're just advocating a change that isn't inline with the theme of the spec. 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Dante.1508]

On 7/7/2022 at 4:06 AM, Kozumi.5816 said:

How can you be casual at your 9 to 5 JOB?

All that is required is basic math, not playing the game a lot.

Developers are not like 9 to 5 job its a bit like kindergarden these days, you know so they can relax and help their creative juices flow..

[Howluffu.7259]

I would start to rework this spec by giving back 2 normal dodges and the dive/jump being an alliance skill or even an F skill(replacing the energy meld useless button). 

Secondly, I would make interesting traits that change/buffs my playing styles(I dont want to have nearly all my spec traits into the fricking jump).

Thirdly, rework the alliance skills. They are horrible. Why not a single energy drain toggle skill?? The elite skills are so bad they don't feel elite at all.

Lastly, I would remake greatsword moveset. More interesting skills. More menacing!! and, OF COURSE, better animations.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Howluffu.7259

[soul.9651]

6 hours ago, Howluffu.7259 said:

I would start to rework this spec by giving back 2 normal dodges and the dive/jump being an alliance skill or even an F skill(replacing the energy meld useless button). 

Secondly, I would make interesting traits that change/buffs my playing styles(I dont want to have nearly all my spec traits into the fricking jump).

Thirdly, rework the alliance skills. They are horrible. Why not a single energy drain toggle skill?? The elite skills are so bad they don't feel elite at all.

Lastly, I would remake greatsword moveset. More interesting skills. More menacing!! and, OF COURSE, better animations.

Honestly i would start with both elite skills because rn they are utterly useless, like what if dps elite skill would empower other utilities or idk would at least do dps worthy of elite skill (something like holo elite), and heal variant could give quickness as long as u keep it toggled on or something else what could be worth using that skill .. or just entirely rework both elites...

Edited July 11, 2022 by soul.9651

[Angesombre.4630]

The mirage had problems and I think they took months or years to try to change it now I do not know what it gives in combat, but well level of hope I am below 0. 

[Ludovide.1967]

Personally I think heal vindicator is a ton of fun in wvw, especially with the ventari changes. But it sucks that without quickness/alacrity it won't be viable in pve. Also, I second people saying that the elites suck. I actually think that the urn of Saint Victor is pretty cool, but that it should give out better boons. Also, it sucks if you get cced because the damage over time can kill you without you having any option to turn it off. Honestly, if the flip over skill for the urn was a stun break/gave stability it would fix the issue and I don't think it would be overpowered.

The spear is a cool idea, but isn't there yet. Also, it makes archemorus the only legend without an energy drain skill, which I think needs to be addressed. Because if you are trying to play dps it means you can't use any of the abilities that interact with upkeep while using alliance stance. 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Ludovide.1967

[Angesombre.4630]

I agree that it can be good but before all it should be hybrid out the side DPS is not useful and strong enough it may be big damage at times but overall it is not at the point with the dodge that is at the same level. On a pack it can pass on a single target it loses a lot. I don't find the urn to be on point and it takes too long to land at the risk of dying, and yes the red side also has no energy consumption. 

Also with the removal of the alac on ventari while the guard has Quikness on his elite cry core version.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[Fwog.9387]

On 7/4/2022 at 11:17 AM, soul.9651 said:

I mean havent you seen a problem with untamed aswell before they recently buffed it? Its the same story, noone is gonna play vindicator at content like strike cms or raids while other far better options exist. And yes it definetely can work as power dps if they boosted the numbers, people can have different opinions and thats fine, but if you personaly cant see how it could work it doesnt mean that other people cant figure it out how it actually could work and right now only the numbers are stoping vindicator from performing well. Unless you are looking at it from open world player perspective where ofc you wouldnt see any problem because there no matter what class or  build you play everything will work..

It was working quite fine for me... then the 28th patch hit and brutally murdered it. i went from doing 32k with a low intensity build to like 28k which puts it under power mechanist and thus makes it not worth taking over my mechanist who already can do a bunch of other things as well. 

[Arolandis.8360]

On 7/10/2022 at 8:12 PM, Howluffu.7259 said:

I would start to rework this spec by giving back 2 normal dodges and the dive/jump being an alliance skill or even an F skill(replacing the energy meld useless button). 

Secondly, I would make interesting traits that change/buffs my playing styles(I dont want to have nearly all my spec traits into the fricking jump).

Thirdly, rework the alliance skills. They are horrible. Why not a single energy drain toggle skill?? The elite skills are so bad they don't feel elite at all.

Lastly, I would remake greatsword moveset. More interesting skills. More menacing!! and, OF COURSE, better animations.

The Energy Meld is definitely meh.

Plus it's casted/interruptible by our very CC-susceptible class and wastes time. We gotta cast something that effectively does nothing so that we can then dodge again.

Absolutely lame.

[Thornwolf.9721]

On 7/5/2022 at 9:32 AM, Lighter.5631 said:

such a fail when they said that they designed elite spec solely based on aesthetics..

like what in the world.. 

 

you need to think about aesthetics and what role it plays and everything

The sad part is... this was what so many people were screaming for when they wanted greatsword. What they did is the grabbed the greatsword concepts; Slapped them together with the togo/scepter heal legends and just rolled them into one thing with a greatsword and gimmicky dodge. 

That's why we have this amalgamation of a spec that has no clue what it wants to be, that the dev's have no clue what they intended it to be and who for us... just feels meh. 

I guess I shouldn't be surprised after renegade.