An actual fix to the many problems of WvW (Celestial, CC, Boons etc)

[lodjur.1284]

1. The first and most important change has nothing to do with celestial but everything to do with boons. 

Stability should be a unique buff, like old alacrity, meaning boon duration wouldn't apply to it, it couldn't be stripped/corrupted etc. CC and Stability are what most slightly larger fights in this game center around, this would firmly push the game in a direction where you kill people with damage, not by stunlocking them for 10+ seconds. I also believe stability should be more widely available to more classes, but that's a different topic. This would at the very least change things quite heavily by being both a big nerf to boon duration and by making stab a buff that actually allows you to play the game for a few seconds. 

 

(something else that definitively needs to happen if Stab stays in the current state is changing the corrupt from fear into anything else, that isn't fear or immob)

 

2. Change might from flat stats to +1.2% dmg/stack (number can be finetuned, but that should be roughly the correct one, won't be exactly the same for all builds, but certainly easier to start from). This would lower the dmg potential of Celestial builds by about 10% across the board, Minstrel builds by far more. While leaving pure condi and pure power builds doing the same dmg as before. This would also lower the passive pressure that large numbers of support players do exert, which is a nice bonus. 

 

Celestial damage is rather lower without boons, the boon duration does enable these builds to run around with high amounts of might/fury hence the focus on those stats

 

3. Buff the precision stat and change fury to a crit damage boost. So that Berserker/Marauder builds end up with roughly the same crit they before with fury, without needing it. Conditional crit chance is a terrible idea to begin with, as the stat can be overcapped. This would be a nerf to celestial build's damage output as well as they have notably less precision than pure power builds and fury makes up a larger portion of their damage (which even in the form of crit dmg would be weaker, as crit dmg requires precision to be valuable). Somewhere in the region of 1% crit/15 precision would be a reasonable point (rough math here). It would also be a buff because one no longer needs to build under the assumption of having/not having fury, celestial builds would lose quite a bit of crit. I believe the new fury would need to be a rather weak boon, due to the huge buff that this change already is, probably somewhere in the 5-10% crit damage region

 

4. Change the burning damage formula, the base damage should be lower and the scaling better. Bleeding and torment compared to their base damage have 230% higher scaling, instead of (0.155 * Condition Damage) + 131 I would propose something along the lines of (0.218 * Condition Damage) + 80. This would result in very close to the same damage for builds that stack the stat very high, while lowering the burning damage from celestial builds by about 10%. This would also put it in line with other damaging conditions. This paired with the might change would vastly lower the burning damage of builds with low condi dmg. The same should happen with poison but would be a much smaller change, and atm I cba doing the math for it, but it also has a slightly higher base dmg by comparison to scaling.

 

These changes would be a sizeable nerf to celestial stats as well as the amount of time one is simple CCed in WvW. I do believe that this game would benefit from a full rework of the CC system, into one where not having stab doesn't mean that you'll stunlocked for 15+ seconds (assuming someone else is keeping you alive), some kind of diminishing returns would be a good solution. The solution I propose has the downside of meaning that one will still need to play with a stabbot to actually be able to play, but at least when one has a stabbot then one can play the game, instead of the current state. 

 

Demolisher stats being added would also be very good for WvW, getting toughness on power builds currently forces you into some rather bad stat combos, but this is more of a sidenote

 

TL;DR 

 

Change stab into a unique buff so boon duration doesn't apply to it, but it can't be corrupted/removed, so that fights in the game focus less on CC and non-support builds have similar ability to provide stability as non-support ones.

 

Change a bunch of math stuff, that would favor builds that focus on offensive stats while nerfing celestial builds (without touching the actual stats). As an added bonus this also lowers the passive damage from minstrel builds by a very significant amount, up to 60% depending on the build.

 

An upside to this particular celestial fix, is that it hits the builds that can abuse celestial the hardest, the most, while leaving the ones that can't abuse it together with might stacking relatively unscathed, whereas nerfing the stats of cele itself, would be a comparatively smaller nerfs to the builds that already can use it to it's fullest degree. This change would mean celestial becomes more of a niche option for certain builds, but less sorta, everywhere within the roaming scene, which is really where it is an issue, in any groups larger than like 4 celestial is already mediocre and good on a very small number of builds. Lowering the dmg of celestial builds that can really abuse it by 15-25% would force them to pick up more dmg traitlines/utilities if they wanna keep their old dmg making them more killable, or lose out on significant damage.

Edited July 12, 2022 by lodjur.1284

[Zyreva.1078]

No.

CC is not a problem (at most a l2p issue) and stability is arguably too widespread already.

Also blanket changes to stats, boons and condis will likely cause more issues than it would fix. The easiest and best way to fix cele is ... surprise surprise ... to nerf cele. Plain and simple.

Edited July 12, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Riba.3271]

I believe making stability unique buff is interesting choice but seems like wouldn't work since people could just jump on anything and run away without boons. Cele only became a problem because they added extra 42% boon and condi duration to it.

I am strickly on the boat where they should reduce outgoing boon durations by nerfing concentration stat. And maybe also make rune sets give 10% boon duration instead of 15% as 225 concentration worth of stats from (2)+(4) rune bonuses is bit too much? Compare this to scholar that only gives 100 stats.

In the end outgoing boon duration is the problem.

Also minstrel/cele players do very small portion of damage in group fights anyways so changing how boons function just for them doesn't seem worth it. I do not think overly complex changes that would break other game modes is not what we should ask as a WvW players.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Threather.9354

[subversiontwo.7501]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

No.

CC is not a problem (at most a l2p issue) and stability is arguably too widespread already.

Also blanket changes to stats, boons and condis will likely cause more issues than it would fix. The easiest and best way to fix cele is ... surprise surprise ... to nerf cele. Plain and simple.

CC is indeed an L2P issue. As in: If you need CC to land your damage you need to L2P. Not as in: If 5 players attack you, overwhelming your already inferior amount of stab, break and cleanse to the amount of CC available on most classes, then you can not just L2P your way out of that. You can "Thief" your way out of that, but that's not the same for every class.

 

The same goes for Cele. The easiest way to balance Cele is not just to nerf it. It was deemed underperforming so it got buffed. It is not overperforming on classes that are built around boons or hybrid damage output but have had their boon uptimes nerfed (eg., Guards). It is overperforming on classes that have other class-mechanics and dedicated damage outputs, but for some reason still have higher boon uptimes (eg., Mesmers). You don't solve those differences by just nerfing Cele.

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

CC is indeed an L2P issue. As in: If you need CC to land your damage you need to L2P. Not as in: If 5 players attack you, overwhelming your already inferior amount of stab, break and cleanse to the amount of CC available on most classes, then you can not just L2P your way out of that. You can "Thief" your way out of that, but that's not the same for every class.

"Can't facetank 5 players, so cc is too strong" - ok ...

Quote

 

The same goes for Cele. The easiest way to balance Cele is not just to nerf it. It was deemed underperforming so it got buffed. It is not overperforming on classes that are built around boons or hybrid damage output but have had their boon uptimes nerfed (eg., Guards). It is overperforming on classes that have other class-mechanics and dedicated damage outputs, but for some reason still have higher boon uptimes (eg., Mesmers). You don't solve those differences by just nerfing Cele.

Cele was never underpowered. And just because not all builds synergize equally well with cele doesn't mean cele isn't op. Also guard > mes in pretty much every regard (except boon rip and stealth i guess, but certainly when it comes to boon spam and dmg), with or without cele.

Does nerfing cele fix every balance issue? Ofc not, but it still is a balance problem in itself and as such it needs to be adressed directly, instead of trying to balance the entire game arround that one broken thing.

Edited July 12, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[subversiontwo.7501]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

"Can't facetank 5 players, so cc is too strong" - ok ...

Facetank is exactly what you do if you're stuck in place from CC. Your attempt at retort seems to have backfired there 🤭.

Quote

guard > mes in pretty much every regard (except boon rip and stealth i guess, but certainly when it comes to boon spam and dmg), with or without cele.

Not at all, just if you listen to crybabies on this forum rather than looking at the actual builds. Many of the popular "boon" builds are popular because they can keep boons rolling with a relatively wide margin. For example, I just chased a Mechanist around with 20s+ of alacrity rolling. That's how a celestial "boon-build" works. There isn't really that kind of "boon-build" for Guardians even if Celestial is a stat-combination that is supposed to work very well with how that class is built, in concept (its passive burns, its F-skills etc.).

Whereas if you talk about a support Guard in a larger squad, that isn't really what most people would label a "boon-build" or that squad is not built to be a "boon-comp" no matter how much people here cry about that when they try to solo 50-man blobs with their bearbow Rangers or rifle-dodge Thieves and get flustered by reflects, hand-resses and stability. Those Guards are not built around boons, they are built around a boon: Stability. Stability is what they are there to do and even by dedicating into that they are certainly not keeping that boon rolling on a 20s margin. In fact, if they're even attempting to keep it rolling to any degree, they are playing their build/role wrong and will be punished for that by groups who know what they're doing.

Spoiler

 

That goes for some of the older boon builds too. You can never really take protection from a boon Beast because all he has to do to regain it is to dodge. You can never take fury from a Herald, alacrity from a Mirage and so on. That is boon spam. Whereas if someone just prestacks a bunch of boons on a longer cooldown, that's perfectly rippable and if a squad that is many times larger than you have an appearant unsurmountable amount of boons that is just because they have that much more of everything compared to you, including that much more damage and CC.

The only players who don't realize just how much CC there is in the game (with builds like immob Rangers etc.) tend to be those who play something extremely non-committant, again, like those LB Ranger builds or Rifle Thief builds, that seems popular among teary-eyed beginners on the forum. Meanwhile, classes like Ranger also have some of the strongest celestial builds, including using celestial to play immob-builds. Yet, those builds are not strong because of celestial but because of how strong and accessible that condition is on those builds, whether they have expertise or not, or regardless of where their expertise (or concentration) comes from, etc.

That's also why you can play those builds on a number of stat-sets and they can be oppressive regardless, yet things like Diviner Guard doesn't really exist, for good reason. It has no access to such boon builds.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Zyreva.1078]

42 minutes ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

Facetank is exactly what you do if you're stuck in place from CC. Your attempt at retort seems to have backfired there 🤭.

When you are stuck in cc you (should) die. That's where the crying stems from i guess.  If you don't - that's another problem.

Also i really want to know which game you are playing, where guardians of all sorts don't fart boons left and right. With and without cele. Not that is has any relevancy regarding cele imbalance, but still ...

Edited July 12, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Kozumi.5816]

9 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

so that fights in the game focus less on CC

What game are you even playing? This game has the worst CC of any MMO besides Rift.

Also why do people think concentration matters? Every boon build constantly spams boons it's why corrupts are ineffective. Duration of said boons does not matter.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[lodjur.1284]

7 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

No.

CC is not a problem (at most a l2p issue) and stability is arguably too widespread already.

Also blanket changes to stats, boons and condis will likely cause more issues than it would fix. The easiest and best way to fix cele is ... surprise surprise ... to nerf cele. Plain and simple.

This is nerfing cele tho, it is nerfing the way it interacts with boons. 

Cele became a viable thing that anyone played after they added concentration (and expertisen) to it

This just does it in a healthy way

CC is the biggest problem this game faces, at all scales I as a very experienced player leading one of the top smallscale groups in WvW find it to be by far the biggest problem, everyone in my group do, every new player I tried to recruit was instantly turned off from the game just due to excessive CC, every fight coming down to  making the other side unable to play is unhealthy beyond belief. 

I have never played a game where being cced for 75% of the time in fights was considered normal or healthy. 

[Sahne.6950]

23 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

1. The first and most important change has nothing to do with celestial but everything to do with boons. 

Stability should be a unique buff, like old alacrity, meaning boon duration wouldn't apply to it, it couldn't be stripped/corrupted etc. CC and Stability are what most slightly larger fights in this game center around, this would firmly push the game in a direction where you kill people with damage, not by stunlocking them for 10+ seconds. I also believe stability should be more widely available to more classes, but that's a different topic. This would at the very least change things quite heavily by being both a big nerf to boon duration and by making stab a buff that actually allows you to play the game for a few seconds. 

 

(something else that definitively needs to happen if Stab stays in the current state is changing the corrupt from fear into anything else, that isn't fear or immob)

 

2. Change might from flat stats to +1.2% dmg/stack (number can be finetuned, but that should be roughly the correct one, won't be exactly the same for all builds, but certainly easier to start from). This would lower the dmg potential of Celestial builds by about 10% across the board, Minstrel builds by far more. While leaving pure condi and pure power builds doing the same dmg as before. This would also lower the passive pressure that large numbers of support players do exert, which is a nice bonus. 

 

Celestial damage is rather lower without boons, the boon duration does enable these builds to run around with high amounts of might/fury hence the focus on those stats

 

3. Buff the precision stat and change fury to a crit damage boost. So that Berserker/Marauder builds end up with roughly the same crit they before with fury, without needing it. Conditional crit chance is a terrible idea to begin with, as the stat can be overcapped. This would be a nerf to celestial build's damage output as well as they have notably less precision than pure power builds and fury makes up a larger portion of their damage (which even in the form of crit dmg would be weaker, as crit dmg requires precision to be valuable). Somewhere in the region of 1% crit/15 precision would be a reasonable point (rough math here). It would also be a buff because one no longer needs to build under the assumption of having/not having fury, celestial builds would lose quite a bit of crit. I believe the new fury would need to be a rather weak boon, due to the huge buff that this change already is, probably somewhere in the 5-10% crit damage region

 

4. Change the burning damage formula, the base damage should be lower and the scaling better. Bleeding and torment compared to their base damage have 230% higher scaling, instead of (0.155 * Condition Damage) + 131 I would propose something along the lines of (0.218 * Condition Damage) + 80. This would result in very close to the same damage for builds that stack the stat very high, while lowering the burning damage from celestial builds by about 10%. This would also put it in line with other damaging conditions. This paired with the might change would vastly lower the burning damage of builds with low condi dmg. The same should happen with poison but would be a much smaller change, and atm I cba doing the math for it, but it also has a slightly higher base dmg by comparison to scaling.

 

These changes would be a sizeable nerf to celestial stats as well as the amount of time one is simple CCed in WvW. I do believe that this game would benefit from a full rework of the CC system, into one where not having stab doesn't mean that you'll stunlocked for 15+ seconds (assuming someone else is keeping you alive), some kind of diminishing returns would be a good solution. The solution I propose has the downside of meaning that one will still need to play with a stabbot to actually be able to play, but at least when one has a stabbot then one can play the game, instead of the current state. 

 

Demolisher stats being added would also be very good for WvW, getting toughness on power builds currently forces you into some rather bad stat combos, but this is more of a sidenote

 

TL;DR 

 

Change stab into a unique buff so boon duration doesn't apply to it, but it can't be corrupted/removed, so that fights in the game focus less on CC and non-support builds have similar ability to provide stability as non-support ones.

 

Change a bunch of math stuff, that would favor builds that focus on offensive stats while nerfing celestial builds (without touching the actual stats). As an added bonus this also lowers the passive damage from minstrel builds by a very significant amount, up to 60% depending on the build.

 

An upside to this particular celestial fix, is that it hits the builds that can abuse celestial the hardest, the most, while leaving the ones that can't abuse it together with might stacking relatively unscathed, whereas nerfing the stats of cele itself, would be a comparatively smaller nerfs to the builds that already can use it to it's fullest degree. This change would mean celestial becomes more of a niche option for certain builds, but less sorta, everywhere within the roaming scene, which is really where it is an issue, in any groups larger than like 4 celestial is already mediocre and good on a very small number of builds. Lowering the dmg of celestial builds that can really abuse it by 15-25% would force them to pick up more dmg traitlines/utilities if they wanna keep their old dmg making them more killable, or lose out on significant damage.

in all honsty..... why not just shave 10% stats from cele?

[Sahne.6950]

12 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

CC is the biggest problem this game faces, at all scales I as a very experienced player leading one of the top smallscale groups in WvW find it to be by far the biggest problem, everyone in my group do, every new player I tried to recruit was instantly turned off from the game just due to excessive CC, every fight coming down to  making the other side unable to play is unhealthy beyond belief. 

I have never played a game where being cced for 75% of the time in fights was considered normal or healthy. 

uhm... you are CCed 75% of the time?

WHAT ARE YOU DOING!? like... WHAT!?

unbelievable that people are complaining about CC... every good Roaming build poops out stability and if you ever should get CCed.... you have 2 stunbreaks on your bar...  in the last 2 years of roaming almost every day... in any fair fights i have NOT been CClocked and died cuz of it. (only against good spellbreakers, but they are a rare sighting these days)

The only time this happens is when i mindlessly run in 4 people... and at that point i died because i was out of position/greeding and not because " CC oVeRPoWeReD".

you seriously need to reconsider if you are running the right build. I can only imagine you are getting zerged and then blame it on CC rather than whats really happening:  you being greedy or out of position.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Kozumi.5816]

12 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

CC is the biggest problem this game faces,

It's CC is so bad and ineffective. Most CC breaks are on lower CDs than CC, which does zero damage, while CC breaks do 3+ different things. You can also generally slot more CC breaks than a single character will have CC.

This is just "I got zerged so cc is imbalanced" complaint. No, being outnumbered s (obviously) imbalanced.

Compare CDs:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/"Protect_Me!"

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gale

This CC break can be used almost twice the amount of times as the CC skill. Not to mention it gives numerous boons in AOE.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[Sahne.6950]

24 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

It's CC is so bad and ineffective. Most CC breaks are on lower CDs than CC, which does zero damage, while CC breaks do 3+ different things. You can also generally slot more CC breaks than a single character will have CC.

This is just "i got zerged so cc is imbalanced". No, being outnumbered s (obviously) imbalanced.

Compare CDs:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/"Protect_Me!"

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gale

its not as simple as comparing 2 Cd´s sadly....

but overall...   

in the fight of             CC   vs   Stability + stunbreaks                                The CC is the looser by a mile.

back in my days you would get hit by CC skill that deal 7k+ damage... now a warrior Charges at you and hits you for a whooping !!!7!!!....    Pepperidge farm remembers!

Edited July 13, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Sahne.6950]

17 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

This is nerfing cele tho, it is nerfing the way it interacts with boons. 

Cele became a viable thing that anyone played after they added concentration (and expertisen) to it

This just does it in a healthy way

CC is the biggest problem this game faces, at all scales I as a very experienced player leading one of the top smallscale groups in WvW find it to be by far the biggest problem, everyone in my group do, every new player I tried to recruit was instantly turned off from the game just due to excessive CC, every fight coming down to  making the other side unable to play is unhealthy beyond belief. 

I have never played a game where being cced for 75% of the time in fights was considered normal or healthy. 

 

Here... protip:   https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Roasted_Lotus_Root  

give those to your "roaming guild" and be happy...  it shortens the duration of stuns and dazes

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Swagger.1459]

13 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

This is nerfing cele tho, it is nerfing the way it interacts with boons. 

Cele became a viable thing that anyone played after they added concentration (and expertisen) to it

This just does it in a healthy way

CC is the biggest problem this game faces, at all scales I as a very experienced player leading one of the top smallscale groups in WvW find it to be by far the biggest problem, everyone in my group do, every new player I tried to recruit was instantly turned off from the game just due to excessive CC, every fight coming down to  making the other side unable to play is unhealthy beyond belief. 

I have never played a game where being cced for 75% of the time in fights was considered normal or healthy. 

First issue, WvW is a zone primarily designed for mass combat to occur. If you are attempting to change the mode for roaming, then there are thousands of adjustments the team would need to make. Unfortunately, though, that’s not how wvw works.

 

Second issue is that while Celestial is convenient, it’s not the top level gear choices on many builds. There are a ton more impactful gear combinations than going celestial.

 

Third issue, and one I find most curious, is that Cele was basically junk until they added Con and Exp. And if you actually look at Boon and Condi durations for wvw skills, that are nerfed down anyway, and the bonus to cele gear gives a paltry couple extra seconds…  Here’s an example…

 

“In WvW… SB with Full Celestial plus Traveler Runes (bc I’m not taking them out just to make a post or bothering to load up the leggy gear and select cele stats for each one)

Quickening Zephyr

-Quickness 6 1/2s

-Superspeed 4s

-Fury 6 1/2s

 

Protect Me

-Protection 6 1/2s

-Regen 16s

-Swiftness 16s

 

No gear at all… That means 0 gear…

Quickening Zephyr

-Quickness 4s

-Superspeed 4s

-Fury 4s

 

Protect Me

-Protection 4s

-Regen 10s

-Swiftness 10s

 

… So the base cele gear essentially adds 2s on the important boons in wvw.”

 

 

… And seriously, all this hubbub for an extra 2 seconds of boons? People really can’t handle 2 extra seconds of boons? 
 

I could make a way more impactful gear build devoid of concentration and still boost concentration to cele levels through other sources. 
 

I, personally, feel the main problems here are that players don’t like to lose, it’s kinda human nature, so players like to blame other “things” as opposed to improving themselves. I do find it odd that there are players who say they are experienced, yet when confronted with 2 extra seconds of boon or condition duration, they can’t manage it. Yet, if they cross a player with a more impactful gear build with added concentration and expertise from other sources, not a peep or all this hubbub. Truly odd.

 

 

Lastly, I would agree with the CC issues this game has. The problem is that the devs designed the CC system in such a way that someone can be hit with CCs non-stop. Could be resolved by creating a diminishing returns design when CC is used on a player, but yeah, here we are 10 years later and no thought or effort went into the CC system. And it’s very evident that the CC system was designed for PvE, not other modes. 

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Swagger.1459

[Zyreva.1078]

15 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

This is nerfing cele tho, it is nerfing the way it interacts with boons. 

Cele became a viable thing that anyone played after they added concentration (and expertisen) to it

This just does it in a healthy way

It changes and likely breaks the entire game - how is this a healthy approach? If one thing is a problem - that one thing needs to be adressed, not everything else. Your suggestion is like cutting off a leg to fix a broken toe.

Quote

I have never played a game where being cced for 75% of the time in fights was considered normal or healthy. 

Luckily it isn't normal in this game ...

Look, i get it, cc can be very annoying, i certainly complain about it from time to time too. But ultimatively it is an important combat mechanic. And again, if certain cc skills are a problem - and there are for sure some quentionable ones - those need to be adressed directly, instead of messing arround with entire mechanics that the game has been designed arround for it's entire lifetime.

(That being said, i'm actually in favour of reverting stability to it's original functionality, but only if overall access gets toned down considerably - it should be a high impact, low uptime boon).

Edited July 13, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, Swagger.1459 said:

First issue, WvW is a zone primarily designed for mass combat to occur. If you are attempting to change the mode for roaming, then there are thousands of adjustments the team would need to make. Unfortunately, though, that’s not how wvw works.

 

Second issue is that while Celestial is convenient, it’s not the top level gear choices on many builds. There are a ton more impactful gear combinations than going celestial.

 

Third issue, and one I find most curious, is that Cele was basically junk until they added Con and Exp. And if you actually look at Boon and Condi durations for wvw skills, that are nerfed down anyway, and the bonus to cele gear gives a paltry couple extra seconds…  Here’s an example…

 

“In WvW… SB with Full Celestial plus Traveler Runes (bc I’m not taking them out just to make a post or bothering to load up the leggy gear and select cele stats for each one)

Quickening Zephyr

-Quickness 6 1/2s

-Superspeed 4s

-Fury 6 1/2s

 

Protect Me

-Protection 6 1/2s

-Regen 16s

-Swiftness 16s

 

No gear at all… That means 0 gear…

Quickening Zephyr

-Quickness 4s

-Superspeed 4s

-Fury 4s

 

Protect Me

-Protection 4s

-Regen 10s

-Swiftness 10s

 

… So the base cele gear essentially adds 2s on the important boons in wvw.”

 

 

… And seriously, all this hubbub for an extra 2 seconds of boons? People really can’t handle 2 extra seconds of boons? 
 

I could make a way more impactful gear build devoid of concentration and still boost concentration to cele levels through other sources. 
 

I, personally, feel the main problems here are that players don’t like to lose, it’s kinda human nature, so players like to blame other “things” as opposed to improving themselves. I do find it odd that there are players who say they are experienced, yet when confronted with 2 extra seconds of boon or condition duration, they can’t manage it. Yet, if they cross a player with a more impactful gear build with added concentration and expertise from other sources, not a peep or all this hubbub. Truly odd.

 

 

Lastly, I would agree with the CC issues this game has. The problem is that the devs designed the CC system in such a way that someone can be hit with CCs non-stop. Could be resolved by creating a diminishing returns design when CC is used on a player, but yeah, here we are 10 years later and no thought or effort went into the CC system. And it’s very evident that the CC system was designed for PvE, not other modes. 

 

 

😂

 

2s of boons...how about perma 25 stacks of might and actually perma boons if you run the right pet.  In addition to a lot of vitality and what 2.7k toughness? Celebeast is a bad, bad example here because it's one of the worst offenders (I know because I've ran one and fought them constantly).

The CC discussion is ironic as I rarely run across players that can break a bar, so how are people getting stunlocked? I've rarely, and I mean rarely come across a few players that have done it to me (spellbreaker and good eles mostly); you can't say you are getting stunlocked by groups as that's just focusing.  If you are trying to chase big groups you literally know what you are getting into.  

Devs are too focused on easy play though, especially with Steam release coming up.  Otherwise its easy, just add more ways to remove/corrupt boons and more unblockables.  And bump up the damage on CC skills from 0 to maybe half of what they were before.  Then it wouldn't matter if a bad player runs a gear set as they'd just get out skilled.

[Xenesis.6389]

Having stability be the catch all boon to counter cc's, while also having to rely on one class to supply the majority of group stability was a terribad idea. Everything needs to be balanced around this one bloody boon. Every Design choice they have to make in regards to boon strips and cc's has to come back on whether or not it touches stability too much, as could be seen when they touched stability or v1 of scourge, and every guild lost their minds and cried about pirate ship.

"Hey anet why won't you change up the meta! combat is getting stale!"

Gee I wonder why! why did anet give firebrands and scrappers so much support tools that are more useful in pvp than pve, I wonder!

Other games like WoW uses automatic diminishing returns to limit the amount of cc's to lock down at a player in a certain amount of time. This game could use some individual diminishing returns, but no, here's more boon spam and go find a guard or scrapper. Other games than that use cc for burst setups and counters, not spam. This game forgot long ago it uses cooldowns as a balance measure.

No amount of messing with stats will fix the actual problem, boon spam, and no one actually cares to change the current system, especially the guilds whispering in the devs ears for this garbage. How did that last round of dps boons balance go, oh, right, banner wawwiors lmao, better off with them not touching anything now.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Xenesis.6389

[Swagger.1459]

3 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

😂

 

2s of boons...how about perma 25 stacks of might and actually perma boons if you run the right pet.  In addition to a lot of vitality and what 2.7k toughness? Celebeast is a bad, bad example here because it's one of the worst offenders (I know because I've ran one and fought them constantly).

The CC discussion is ironic as I rarely run across players that can break a bar, so how are people getting stunlocked? I've rarely, and I mean rarely come across a few players that have done it to me (spellbreaker and good eles mostly); you can't say you are getting stunlocked by groups as that's just focusing.  If you are trying to chase big groups you literally know what you are getting into.  

Devs are too focused on easy play though, especially with Steam release coming up.  Otherwise its easy, just add more ways to remove/corrupt boons and more unblockables.  And bump up the damage on CC skills from 0 to maybe half of what they were before.  Then it wouldn't matter if a bad player runs a gear set as they'd just get out skilled.

😂

 

So should we remove all sources of concentration from the game because certain players have difficulty with boons?

 

The CC system is built for pve, pretty clear for those that have any substantial amount of pvp experience. 
 

[Svarty.8019]

Hahaha changing things, that's a good one! Hahaha - Tell me another!

[Gotejjeken.1267]

11 hours ago, Swagger.1459 said:

😂

 

So should we remove all sources of concentration from the game because certain players have difficulty with boons?

 

The CC system is built for pve, pretty clear for those that have any substantial amount of pvp experience. 
 

 

How is the CC system built for PvE when originally you had classes like Warriors doing most of it? That tells me it was a comped decision (i.e. the old GWEN).

So were boons, but they started adding new ones / changing them / making them spammable so it became a problem (and obvious direction to LI builds).