Acrobatics - A weaker Daredevil

[Atalius.9407]

Acrobatics line of thief is essenatially a one trait line(sword steal cd trait), other than that it just provides extremely minor bonuses. Please adress this, try something experimental and if it goes wrong, just revert it.

 

 

Why is Arenanet this slow to address very obvious simple problems about certain traits? Is it a problem based on their workflow? I really don't see the benefit of being this clumsy when it comes to addressing these stuff.

[Chips.7968]

9 hours ago, Atalius.9407 said:

Why is Arenanet this slow to address very obvious simple problems about certain traits? Is it a problem based on their workflow? I really don't see the benefit of being this clumsy when it comes to addressing these stuff.

Like leaving 300s cooldown nerfs as placeholders to change the traits for... actually, lost count of how many years.

Sack. the. lot. 

[Vinny.7260]

I think it's extra hilarious that they've reworked Shadow Arts twice before they've adjusted or even touched Acrobatics once...

Acro/Deadly Arts/Trickery S/D vs Deadly Arts/Trickery/DD is literally an unfair matchup. DD gets better endurance access, better steal, better dodge, better Swiftness duration, movement impairment removal, and deals more damage with baseline traits providing damage modifiers. Oh, DD also gets better cleanse, self-sustain, and damage reduction.

I think it's the fact they're worried about Acro/DD working too well together. Back when people joked around with Acro Staff DD and being basically unkillable in conjunction with Jump + Staff 3 being bugged and not causing you to roll back.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Vinny.7260
Acroynm for Deadly Arts got kittenified.

[Bunny.9834]

On 7/18/2022 at 2:18 AM, Atalius.9407 said:

Acrobatics line of thief is essenatially a one trait line(sword steal cd trait), other than that it just provides extremely minor bonuses. Please adress this, try something experimental and if it goes wrong, just revert it.

 

 

Why is Arenanet this slow to address very obvious simple problems about certain traits? Is it a problem based on their workflow? I really don't see the benefit of being this clumsy when it comes to addressing these stuff.

This has been the meme ever since HoT release and Daredevil was introduced. They should give Acrobatics some kind of self-quickness generation. 

[Stx.4857]

DD kind of took away acrobatics niche.  Time to update acro to be viable again by giving it some more damage traits, non stealth/non teleport mobility, or even some boons not already provided by SA.

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Bunny.9834 said:

This has been the meme ever since HoT release and Daredevil was introduced. They should give Acrobatics some kind of self-quickness generation. 

Quickness on a slow drip throughout the traitline as a theme would be nice, especially with Sword MH as the signature weapon, but if that were only one trait choice then people would probably only take that one.

I think since Acro has been dismantled for soo long, they should break it in the other direction and let it do some crazy stuff, like make all of your weapon skill and action animations like dodge and jump a little more profound and exaggerated (for some small advantage with terrain and spacing), and the more you combo and chain skills and actions together within a certain grace period of each other, the more Quickness and/or other modifier upkeep you get with a little residual wind down duration if you stop, but you'd have to keep up the combos and chains for the Quickness. They're not likely to hit up Acro soon anyway so might as well get stupid with it. 

[nopoet.2960]

6 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

Quickness on a slow drip throughout the traitline as a theme would be nice, especially with Sword MH as the signature weapon, but if that were only one trait choice then people would probably only take that one.

I think since Acro has been dismantled for soo long, they should break it in the other direction and let it do some crazy stuff, like make all of your weapon skill and action animations like dodge and jump a little more profound and exaggerated (for some small advantage with terrain and spacing), and the more you combo and chain skills and actions together within a certain grace period of each other, the more Quickness and/or other modifier upkeep you get with a little residual wind down duration if you stop, but you'd have to keep up the combos and chains for the Quickness. They're not likely to hit up Acro soon anyway so might as well get stupid with it. 

I like this; quickness on combo finishers but then also include more ways to combo.  Maybe turn shadowsteps to leaps with blast at the end?

[kash.9213]

8 minutes ago, nopoet.2960 said:

I like this; quickness on combo finishers but then also include more ways to combo.  Maybe turn shadowsteps to leaps with blast at the end?

I like the part in bold. That might be a more practical way to pull that off.

Underlined I think would be too strong for an already boosted, and recently, shadowstep mechanic but that's a good thread to follow.

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 7/18/2022 at 3:39 PM, Vinny.7260 said:

I think it's extra hilarious that they've reworked Shadow Arts twice before they've adjusted or even touched Acrobatics once...

Acro/Deadly Arts/Trickery S/D vs Deadly Arts/Trickery/DD is literally an unfair matchup. DD gets better endurance access, better steal, better dodge, better Swiftness duration, movement impairment removal, and deals more damage with baseline traits providing damage modifiers. Oh, DD also gets better cleanse, self-sustain, and damage reduction.

I think it's the fact they're worried about Acro/DD working too well together. Back when people joked around with Acro Staff DD and being basically unkillable in conjunction with Jump + Staff 3 being bugged and not causing you to roll back.

It's not like we didn't see this coming.  I know I at least wrote a number of long posts about the Daredevil's design being inherently flawed due to its redundancy with Acro the same day they announced it.

From a game design perspective, making entire methods of interacting with the game completely and utterly redundant is little more than a fancy waste of resources and a point of frustration for players.

[Vinny.7260]

2 minutes ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

It's not like we didn't see this coming.  I know I at least wrote a number of long posts about the Daredevil's design being inherently flawed due to its redundancy with Acro the same day they announced it.

From a game design perspective, making entire methods of interacting with the game completely and utterly redundant is little more than a fancy waste of resources and a point of frustration for players.

I really kinda hope they change the identity of how Acrobatics works or even change it into a different trait line entirely. 

[Chips.7968]

On 7/20/2022 at 1:53 AM, Vinny.7260 said:

I really kinda hope they change the identity of how Acrobatics works or even change it into a different trait line entirely. 

What would core s/d thief then have?

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

27 minutes ago, Chips.7968 said:

What would core s/d thief then have?

Exactly this. I'd prefer they reworked daredevil into something that isn't core thief 2.0 and then buffed acrobatics by adding things from current daredevil like the weakness application on dodge etc so it covers the same niche as current daredevil. That way core specs have really solid defensive specs and the elite specs actually do their job as alternative ways to play. Taking the third dodge off of feline grace then returning it with daredevil was all kinds of lazy, the fact they didn't change swipe to be different from core steal until the spec had been out for years shows how badly thought out it was. 

Edit: sticking to the original topic, some of the stuff in acro is actually good in a niche way but the spec in general just has not aged well with the power creep in the game. Swindler's equilibrium is a great trait. Guarded initiation and Don't Stop along with swiftness on dodge and sword 2 have really good synergy with antitoxin runes for cleanse that doesn't depend on stealth. The 300s traits would be decent on any other class that isn't designed to rely on hit and run tactics, unfortunately this is thief so they just feel ineffective for the most part (instant reflexes Vs ranger rapid fire.... Yeah). Some stuff is just plain outdated, like why would you ever spec for vigor on heal when feline grace and fireworks runes exist, and regen on evade is an awful effect for a grandmaster trait when you get the same boon for free in other places. In what way is that playstyle defining?

If you were gonna rework acro instead, there is so much room for new stuff. The minor traits in acro are largely just fluff, they could be compressed into one good trait that gives swiftness on dodge and improves vigor and have other effects in the other two slots. The first set of trait choices in acro are equally bad, you could remove all three without issue. The second set of trait choices has swindler's equilibrium, keep that, and keep guarded initiation only if it is moved to no longer compete with swindler's. Grandmaster traits, don't stop is the only really good choice. That's two minor traits and six major traits that you could change to something entirely different that doesn't depend on dodge/evade without killing builds that currently rely on acrobatics, 8/12 traits in the line are completely replaceable. 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Jugglemonkey.8741

[itspomf.9523]

On 7/19/2022 at 8:53 PM, Vinny.7260 said:

I really kinda hope they change the identity of how Acrobatics works or even change it into a different trait line entirely. 

Well, with acrobatics being defensive (via dodges) with a focus on granting vigor and swiftness, I'd say we would want something at least remotely similar, but just less ... weeping in a corner.

Expeditious Dodger:  perhaps Signet of Shadows could instead become an augment to shadowsteps or stealth duration (active:  shadowstep to target and gain stealth?), and its +25% movement speed could be folded this trait, providing a blanket movement speed increase in line with the concept of a fast and fluid combatant, becoming "Skirmisher's Resolve:  +25% movement speed.  Gain 3s of Swiftness on dodging; if you successfully evade an attack, instead gain a short burst of Superspeed (1 to 2s)."

This would grant thief steady access to an otherwise inaccessible boon (only via Steal Mobility from Deadeye).

Instant Reflexes:  this is one of those trait's that's really only good on paper, but useless in practice, as @Jugglemonkey.8741 pointed out above, even in regular PvE.  The biggest problem is its egregiously long cooldown and the 50% health threshold (~5k HP on baseline thief), meaning that you're probably close to dead by the time this goes off, and probably won't survive whatever triggers it. 

I'd much prefer if it just "ate" a dodge within a shorter window (about 8 to 12 seconds) so long as I had endurance, and counted as an evasion, thus synergizing with the rest of the traitline (and with Daredevil as a result).

Vigorous Recovery:  is ... lackluster, to say the least.  Providing a minimum of 50 endurance (ideally 100 with Vigor, for more synergy) upon using a heal skill would be far more viable, a presently it feels redundant against Feline Grace. 

Pain Response:  also suffers terribly, and has been absolutely gutted in competitive modes.  Unfortunately, Escapist's Fortitude killed any hope of "remove condition on dodge / evade," and is basically a worse version of Guarded Initiation (despite different conditions being removed). 

The only way I can think to remedy this is through the Regeneration effect:  "once per interval, ignore lethal damage and gain a modest sum of healing" (perhaps even a bit better than the pitiful 1300 HP restored by the 10s of Regeneration).

Feline Grace:  shouldn't be touched.  It's honestly fine as-is.

Guarded Initiation:  is a trait I've never been convinced actually works.  However, with the changes to Pain Response, this trait would need to be updated to remove any condition, rather than a limited subset. 

Better yet, change it to "Remove 1 condition per 3 initiative spent," potentially granting thief a way to turn its bursts and more expensive weapon skills into a defensive edge.

Swindler's Equilibrium:  is honestly reasonable, but I'd actually prefer to see a shorter ICD and smaller recharge percentage (maybe 10% once every 2 seconds?) to make it feel a bit more dynamic and active a skill, rather than something that pops every once in a while. 

I would also remove the restriction for dodges while wielding a sword or spear, and simply have it grant the above bonuses for all weapons (in addition to increasing base sword and spear damage).

Hard to Catch:  another trait absolutely wrecked in competitive modes, it also doesn't even prevent the disable from occurring, which is just plain tripe.  Also, it doesn't play well with Stability, making it almost useless in group play. 

Instead, and per the above changes to Vigorous Recovery, it should simply negate any single incoming disabling effect from occurring once within a window, which could be made dramatically shorter by using the same endurance drain proposed for Instant Reflexes.  In essence, think of it as a "soft" version of the old Defiance stacks.

Endless Stamina:  does exactly what it needs to, and can stay.

Assassin's Reward:  is a woefully stale trait that, while effective, still isn't pulling its weight as a grandmaster. 

Instead, it should heal a blanket amount (with a modest coefficient for Healing Power) whenever you strike a foe from the side or behind, with an increase to the amount healed when performing stealth attacks (because Jormag knows thief needs it).

Upper Hand:  is likewise outshone by Escapist's Fortitude and even the new Shadow Arts traits, such as Shadow's Rejuvention.

Quite frankly, it should simply allow for faster Initiative generation (+20%, perhaps) as a baseline, and once per interval, should recharge any skills on cool-down by some percentage (not a static amount of time) whenever successfully evading an attack.

Don't Stop:  is probably one of the most powerful traits here, let alone in the grandmaster category.  While the effects are quite solid, it doesn't feel like it belongs here, and should be swapped with new version of Hard to Catch or Pain Response.

---

p.s.:  Yes, I realize this would make thief a potential pain in the tail to fight, but let's be real:  at least they won't be in stealth!

Edited July 24, 2022 by itspomf.9523
Fix formating because forum adds extra line height before/after paragraphs (fix your CSS)

[Chips.7968]

Not even reading all that - solutions don't include trying to make utilities the best option for every other build. 25% movement increase AND teleport AND stealth? How does this only benefit S/D Acro? It doesn't, it becomes the go to for most other builds, not sword. 

The game is a mess. Beyond all expectations. You may well have excellent suggestions after that, but... life is  short and the devs are neither going to read, nor care, about what's said on the forums.

If they did, we'd not STILL HAVE 300s COOLDOWNS IN A TRAIT LINE AFTER 3 BLOODY YEARS.

 

Meanwhile we have nearing 3k gem store skins to purchase. Let that sink in.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Chips.7968

[Sahne.6950]

When slotted acrobatics you Evadeframe from dodging will be extended by 50%. The evade animation gets changed to something like the Conditiondodge on Daredevil animationwise. During the evade, you will hit any projectiles that are coming at you with your weapons and reflect them. This will give acro further offensive power, especially in the current projectilemeta(similar mechanic like Mesmer reflects on dodge). (This will NOT apply should you also trait Daredevil. It will execute the chosen Daredevil dodge when equipping both)

Give instant reflexes a 40 second CD just like in pve. Basicly revert the 300sCD. (YUP 40 seconds... Acro should be your "holy kitten i cant touch this thief"-trait in terms of evadeframes. overall it competes with Shadowarts and or Daredevil... both are incredible offensively and defensively)

Swindlers equilibrium: increase powerbonus from 240 to 340.  Steal recharge back to 50%, basicly remove the pve/pvp split. reducing the steal CD even more makes room for some really nice gameplay with dagger offhand.

Buff assasins reward by ~30% and finally fix it (over the course of the game they increased initiative costs on alot of skils, but the trait still gives hp of the original initiative cost.

Upperhand: Remove the regeneration and add another point of initiative on it. (you have hp sustain in assasins reward)

 

With these changes you would have atleast 1 viable trait in every tier.

if its to much... they have the +Power wheel that they can turn down to bring it in line.

Those changes would buff the Spec while also making equipping it together with Daredevil NOT viable because your are loosing a core aspect of the traitline.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Xaylin.1860]

On 7/24/2022 at 3:44 PM, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

I'd prefer they reworked daredevil into something that isn't core thief 2.0 and then buffed acrobatics by adding things from current daredevil like the weakness application on dodge etc so it covers the same niche as current daredevil.

Imho, Weakness is actually something that suits the bruisery style of Daredevil way better than Acrobatics. Plus, there already is Weakness in kitten.

 

On 7/24/2022 at 3:44 PM, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Some stuff is just plain outdated, like why would you ever spec for vigor on heal when feline grace

Actually, it probably never was up to date due to Feline Grace. I don't really remember the history of those traits and what came first.

There clearly is stuff that is not just not up to date but plainly doesn't make sense. It probably never impacted Thief or the game enough for ANet to actually rework it properly. I mean, what is the boon duration for? In a line that literally only offers kind of self-sufficient boons? Personally, I think it would be interesting to move the Lead Attacks buff to Acrobatics and rework the GMs into 3 traits that grant Initiative via different ways and build up the playstyles from there (one clearly being focussed on evades and one probably being self-boon focussed). This would also open up alternatives to Prepardeness but instead of having a bigger pool, regenerating Initiative would be faster.