Rifle Mech is now 28k DPS with 0 input from the player.

[Kuma.1503]

6 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Nah people would have complained about the rifle changes regardless but they could have lessened the impact if they gave us more informations on who and what's next. As of rn the only thing we have is: "focus on buffing a larger set of specializations on August 23".

I've got my fingers crossed for staff ele buffs, but I'm also not holding my breath on that. 

[Treacy.4067]

On 8/7/2022 at 9:46 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

If someone is AFKing an encounter, that's NOT because their build allows them to...

Utter nonsense and again trying to change the narrative.  Two things: a build should never be so unbalanced that someone can afk and get such high dps.  And two, raids aren't the only type of content.  

[Obtena.7952]

13 hours ago, Treacy.4067 said:

a build should never be so unbalanced that someone can afk and get such high dps.  

Again, if people can AFK an encounter with their builds, it's not because the build allows it, it's because the encounter is trivial in design. The amount of DPS a build does is not an issue once the encounter is non-trivial in its mechanics to require engagement. If there is content that only mechanist power rifle can afk, tell us what it is.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Zok.4956]

On 8/8/2022 at 4:21 AM, Sunchaser.9854 said:

Alright my bad guys. Mechanist isn't a afk spec. It has to walk next to the boss and press f to loot it, my bad. Its perfectly balanced. 😜

No need to walk to boss if you have unlocked autoloot. 😉

 

[Ghos.1326]

Personally, I don't think easier builds to play is an issue. So long as the build can fulfill its role properly without also fulfilling every other role better than builds that specifically focus on said role.

Example, a build that's focused on DPS does said DPS easily without much effort, but also tanks like a dedicated tank, bunkers better than a dedicated bunker, moves as fast or faster than an assassin style build, and also heals/provides team boons better than a dedicated support.

The above example would be an instance of being broken. Easier builds to play aren't necessarily bad, what's bad is how effective it is outside of the build's intended role.

[Mell.4873]

What a mess this thread is.... All I can say is Arena Net will probably nerf this playstyle, due solely to the play time of mechanist so why are we all panicking? Same thing happened with other specs.

I mean Arena Net nerf or buff things based on numbers, if the Golem/player-time are to high they nerf, if they have low Golem/play-time numbers they buff. Simple formula so just wait and see what happens. 

[Tails.9372]

38 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Arena Net will probably nerf this playstyle, due solely to the play time of mechanist

Which would be a rather nonsensical thing to do. There are many builds which actually perform really good but no one plays them for reasons unrelated to their performance. Going by that logic there would be an issue worth adressing with them which is certainly not the case. Same with rifle Mechanist, both the "what" and the "how" are generally rather popular things so its popularity in and of itself is not an issue that needs addressing.

39 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I mean Arena Net nerf or buff things based on numbers, if the Golem/player-time are to high they nerf, if they have low Golem/play-time numbers they buff. Simple formula so just wait and see what happens. 

Kind of yes but not really, there are many underperforming things which either never saw any attention or got nerfed even further. Many things often times feel like a mixture of arbitrarity and them responding to the outrage of the week. A-Net already said a lot of things are going to get buffed which will put things further into perspective. They clearly have an end goal in mind here we just don't know what it is and they apparently don't feel like sharing much either so they should honsetly just ignore the current ourage mob, go on with their planned changes, cut down actual outliers in terms of performance and re-evaluate things after everything had enough time to settle down once they are done with their initial round of changes / reworks.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

They clearly have an end goal in mind here we just don't know what it is and they apparently don't feel like sharing much either so they should honsetly just ignore the current ourage mob, go on with their planned changes, cut down actual outliers in terms of performance and re-evaluate things after everything had enough time to settle down once they are done with their initial round of changes / reworks.

I do agree but I believe the whole reason rifle was changed was due the lack of play time. I mean I never used rifle in any of my Engineer builds, since kits were so much better. 

I will agree though there is some end goal with all these changes, I mean we had a really stale meta before this where Firebrand and Scourge where you only options in end game content. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Treacy.4067]

15 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, if people can AFK an encounter with their builds, it's not because the build allows it

That makes no sense.  The character must first be able to afk auto attack in their "build" (and I use that term very loosely) to be able to do so in the first place, regardless of boss mechanics.

[Sunchaser.9854]

Imagine, a hypothetical scenario of Work vs effort. Of a job that has 600% more actions required per hour, to receive 2% more, while it's boss can also dock 20-90% of it's pay for any second that it is not currently doing a job, such as using a toilet, taking a rest on the hands, or did a task 80% correctly but resulted in 20% pay loss. 

 

Position A, is a job that CAN pay up to 25.50$ per hour. (2% more than 25$ a hour), but the boss can dock your pay 40-90% based on your activities per hour, so 98% of people working at Position A can be paid anywhere between 2$ a hour to 20$ in practice.

• Only 2% of people make above 20$ in practice, and only 0.5% of people working at Job A make over 25.01$ a hr.  20$ Is considered good pay, and 25.50$ being considered excellent pay, when you simultaneously perform 12 tasks at once like a octopus with laser focus and second precise precision. Your job will always be active and you must constantly be performing tasks 24/7, lest your pay be sapped. 

 

Position M, is a job that pays 25.00$ per hour. It is titled, say, "Master Executive Co-assistant Helper of Turning on Windows". (MECH Windows),Every day, once per 9-5 shift. You arrive at work and you turn on the boss's computer. If you want, you can also press 4 buttons per hour to turn on his google chrome as well.

 

The position also comes with a gaming longue. You can also work from home or even leave the office to go golfing halfway through and nobody will notice. Because the effort to do your job can be accomplished so easily, you can walk away from your job, or even set up a bot to do it for you. 

 

Now, imagine you're the person slaving 9-5 away and every day, you work your butts off, and you see the person winning 3x more employee of the month rewards. Because position M is only available to people who like the same favorite sports team as the Boss. Sometimes the boss will randomly also raise other employee's wages down 20%, so that they can raise mechanist's pay 20%. And sometimes he has a robot that also turns on windows itself for himself. (automated mech abilities), but it's slightly slower, But he still pays the M position the same pay anyways. 

 

Would it seem fair and balanced to know, that 2% of people could make 2% more than the mech, but everyone else in practice is drastically having the boss dock 20-40% of their pay for even pressing a button 1/10th of a second off or not knowing there were hidden interval / autoattack interuption mechanics at play that could make you get paid less, even if you were putting in the same actions as the other guy.

Because your office equipment was so obscurely designed, pressing the button 0.1 s off could somehow dock your pay(dps). because it canceled a invisible autoattack or Mallyx pulse trigger barrier that you didn't know you had to ration your keyboard for, just to get the pulses to line up with your energy ratios While the other dude routinely went golfing and filled up 9 employees of the month for turning on a computer while seeing other class's pay docked around you 20% a week?

Would you be willing to do 600% of the work, to be the lucky 2%, who can get more pay of a robot at a job where 40-90% of your wage could be taken away if even your key presses were 0.1 off, and feel like it was rewarding? Sure you'll do well at other companies, but at that one, it would kinda seem a bit.. jarring.. wouldn't it? Seeing someone more rewarded, for less effort.. For a very basic task anyone could do. (autoattack or turn on a computer), yet rewarded quite decently well for it enough they could leave their job and still be paid for it.

So every day, position A works. And they aren't the worst at position A, they're fair but it still seems sad, staring every day they're told both Position A and position M are fair on paper. But in practice. 98% of people doing the low effort job make more than the people with more tasks, and even when you tie, it's when you've had to work for hours to keep up with a Position M who slept in at work in the morning while watching 50 other people try to work with them.

And it's called balance because you COULD be paid better than them. But in practice the pay for M is just tuned so high, and Position A's boss so eager to dock at least 10-40% of pay even for a top yearly vet. That you rarely if ever see the 98% pay beat just since you have to do 700% the work to match 2% the effort.  So every group is just 10 afk mechanist players to one normal player in 50 maybe just managing to compete or show up with a list of 10 position M at them.

So you try another group and another group and you literally had top 0.1% wow Mythic Raiding parses and picked a class because you loved the theme. And you're like Jesus this is way overtuned for a afk spec.

Position A has all these weird clunky mechanics that lower dps. And you can be docked pay for breathing, not knowing hidden pulsing interactions, not having a mob live long enough for the condi to matter, not being able to switch targets from 1200 range away, not having a mech auto damage through 10-20% of the fight that's spent CCed as the bosses fly you into the air.

You can make a decent living but you're just watching position M take over every job and be called 'balanced' on paper while in practice, it's just tuned so high 98% of the time. Position M in real world results ends up getting more results than 98% of the population for less efforts than 98% of the population. 

You wouldn't do 600% of the work IRl to have a boss that could dock you 40-90% of your pay at whim, if you weren't slaving away every second over a job that 'could' pay 2% more.. 2% of the time.

Why would anyone pick Position A, when position M still makes more in practice than 98% of position A with 2% of the effort? 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Sunchaser.9854

[Yaki.9563]

On 8/7/2022 at 12:30 AM, Liisjak.4509 said:

If you google TeaPot's LI builds contest you can see that every class can perfom well with 4 buttons (30k dps+). It feels like you people are whining just for the sake of whining...or you're not capable of pressing 4 buttons? Now that's a different problem.

 

Why aren't you complaining about Sup Mech and FB, those are real issues that need fixing.

 

I searched, I didn't find. I see some LI build contest in May but found no winning builds. 

You can claim that every class has a high DPS LI build but if that actually were the case people would be playing those builds. They aren't. They are, however, playing Mechanist in droves and it's not because they like the look of the giant green robot.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Yaki.9563

[Obtena.7952]

19 hours ago, Treacy.4067 said:

That makes no sense.  The character must first be able to afk auto attack in their "build" (and I use that term very loosely) to be able to do so in the first place, regardless of boss mechanics.

So let me get this straight .. YOU THINK the only build in the game that you can press 1 and walk away during an encounter is mechanist? OK ... 😆Let's just say ... that's a lack of experience on your part. I mean, what character does not have the ability to afk auto attack on their build? That's the default setting on AA. Literally EVERY build meets the criteria you define here ... so what I say makes LOTS of sense. 

Your limited experience doesn't invalidate what I said. If players are AFKing encounters in the game with a mechanist, it's because the encounter is trivial or they don't care about the consequences, not because that using a mechanist is somehow unique in enabling an encounter to be AKFed. 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Jtoon.6907]

Balancing consideration also to include losing the pet in water while other classes don’t. 

[ThunderX.6591]

Sunchaser, you have represented the real world works mostly perfectly......... i can only add that people take position A and position M indifferently, because that is the real world....... if you want to work, you get position A or try next round, same for position M obviously, it's your choice.

On Yaki, yeah, most "casual" play Mecha because has the Robot........ because a robot is in the login window of the game....... (and what is in a strategic position is perceived as "good thing to play in game", and "casual" try to play directly the class literally advertased on the front of the game.

As i sayd before, my main is ranger (Soulbeast even when the class was subpar), FB Condi, nothing fancy here, renegade alac (started as Herald, but then, people needed Alac for all...........), and many other, even holo, but now i use Mecha too because, (big reveal) i like robots and mechanics, so i choose it.

AS i posted various time, Mecha with 01/08 patch lost 2k dps, so from the 36k dps on Snowcrow (old test), you need to sub 2k (so around 34k), dps that take the class on the lower part of the ranking benchmark......... but i will continue to use it cause i like robot...... simple as that.

And remember, the majority of "casual" want to play easy the game, no "piano/complicated rotation", they are "casual"...... (Major part of the Steam community too)

[Jerus.4350]

4 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

AS i posted various time, Mecha with 01/08 patch lost 2k dps, so from the 36k dps on Snowcrow (old test), you need to sub 2k (so around 34k), dps that take the class on the lower part of the ranking benchmark......... but i will continue to use it cause i like robot...... simple as that.

 

Naw that 36k was updated Aug 2nd, it's current.  That latest balance patch did cut the Mech's AAR damage in half (3s to 6s ICD) losing ~1500 dps, but the Rifle 1 skill was fixed to have the correct (shorter)cast time, countering the better portion of that nerf.

 

Of course, you're not getting that 36k afk, and personally I think 34k is my best attempt so far and that's at something like 90 APM.  Completely AFK got me 27.5k DPS last I tried.

[Treacy.4067]

15 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So let me get this straight .. YOU THINK the only build in the game that you can press 1 and walk away during an encounter is mechanist? .....that's a lack of experience on your part......Your limited experience

Don't make up stuff then assume things about someone based on your false premise.  Any class can technically press 1 and walk away and afk, but not all will have the same result.  So I'll say it again for you:  balance.  I'm not going to assume your experience with games in general but you seem oblivious to its intricacies and its importance in mmos.  

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, Treacy.4067 said:

Any class can technically press 1 and walk away and afk, but not all will have the same result.  So I'll say it again for you:  balance.  I'm not going to assume your experience with games in general but you seem oblivious to its intricacies and its importance in mmos.  

That's right ... anyone can do that with ANY build. That's why it's an encounter issue if someone can AFK an encounter. The result (or balance) of a specific build has nothing to do with being able to AFK an encounter because ANY build can do it.  So when people say we need to nerf mechanist because it's an AFK build ... they are WRONG. 

Again, people MUST engage with the mechanics of the build and the encounter to achieve the top DPS of the build. That's always true, even if a build has a single button DPS rotation. 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Treacy.4067]

28 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's right ... anyone can do that with ANY build. That's why it's an encounter issue if someone can AFK an encounter. The result (or balance) of a specific build has nothing to do with being able to AFK an encounter because ANY build can do it.  So when people say we need to nerf mechanist because it's an AFK build ... they are WRONG. 

Again, people MUST engage with the mechanics of the build and the encounter to achieve the top DPS of the build. That's always true, even if a build has a single button DPS rotation. 

They need to nerf mechanist because their auto attack is too strong.  As stated earlier, there are two issues at play here:  balance and having a class that can do ridiculous damage through automation.   And you hit the nail on the head when you said "Must engage with the mechanics of the build" because that's the problem, there is no engagement with automation. 

[Obtena.7952]

26 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said:

They need to nerf mechanist because their auto attack is too strong.  As stated earlier, there are two issues at play here:  balance and having a class that can do ridiculous damage through automation.   And you hit the nail on the head when you said "Must engage with the mechanics of the build" because that's the problem, there is no engagement with automation. 

So hold on, WHAT AA are you talking about? Mace or Rifle?  

And again, it's not a problem if there is a minimum engagement with the build because the engagement with the encounters is still necessary to get the damage you have issue with. That's the whole point of LI builds. You can't just single out mechanist and say it needs a nerf because if it's lack of engagement with it's build. It's not unique that way. 

LI builds need to do damage that enables low capability players to integrate with teams at a reasonable level of performance. That's why we have them. Rifle AA is overtuned, but it's not really a priority to change it because in a team, mechanists aren't being stacked because of the DPS of a power rifle mechanist. 

The damage isn't a problem, EVEN if it's through automation, because a player can't get that DPS without engaging in the encounter. The BALANCE is a problem because you can stack mechanists for multiplied effects in teams. Don't sit there and claim we need power rifle mechanist nerfs because of the balance issue that results in stacking. Don't even go there. 

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Treacy.4067]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So hold on, WHAT AA are you talking about? Mace or Rifle?

How do you not know what we're talking about by this point in the conversation?  I and others have posted numbers in this thread and yes, those are two listed.

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said:

How do you not know what we're talking about by this point in the conversation?  I and others have posted numbers in this thread and yes, those are two listed.

I'm simply asking you to be clear about what you are talking about because one of those is relevant to the thread about rifle mech and the other isn't. The damage isn't a problem, EVEN if it's through automation, because a player can't get that DPS without engaging in the encounter. The BALANCE is a problem because you can stack mechanists for multiplied effects in teams and that has nothing to do with damage rifle mechanist has.

Don't sit there and claim we need power rifle mechanist nerfs because of the balance issue that results in mechanist stacking. That's confusing two different issues on two completely different builds. It's not an honest assessment. 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Treacy.4067]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm simply asking you to be clear about what you are talking about because one of those is relevant to the thread about rifle mech and the other isn't. The damage isn't a problem, EVEN if it's through automation, because a player can't get that DPS without engaging in the encounter.

Yes damage is the very problem we're discussing.  And afk by definition means lack of engagement. That's the whole point. 

[Obtena.7952]

55 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said:

Yes damage is the very problem we're discussing.  And afk by definition means lack of engagement. That's the whole point. 

Yup I get that point. Again, the players do engage with the content and their team in the encounter to get that damage, so it's not AFK. Continually describing this as part of the problem is a completely disingenuous way to describe it. 

Clearly, you are just one of these people that is unwilling to accept LI builds need to perform at a level that is equivalent to others to do enable low capability players to integrate.  I hope Anet has the Judgement of Solomon to expose the true intent of these sensational points. 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Tails.9372]

2 hours ago, Treacy.4067 said:

They need to nerf mechanist because their auto attack is too strong.

The rifle AA is already weaker than what compatible weapon sets from other classes have. They also already nerfed mechanist in the exact same way you guys have been asking for (reduce the damage of the mech and give it to the player character + reduce the ability of the mech to tank for the player) which is something you guys just seem to love to ignore but it really reveals the main issue here: you just don't like what the spec is supposed to be. Ofc. this by itself is completely fine as you're obviously not the target audience but that also means that A-Net is best advised to just completely ignore most of your feedback here as you're clearly biased against the spec and are therefore not arguing from a position of good faith.

2 hours ago, Treacy.4067 said:

As stated earlier, there are two issues at play here:  balance and having a class that can do ridiculous damage through automation.

There is no balancing issue here. At best you can say it's a gameplay "issue" caused by a "passive component" which is inherent to the nature of the spec, luckily this "problem" can easily be solved by just playing something else with a focus on more active gameplay.

2 hours ago, Treacy.4067 said:

And you hit the nail on the head when you said "Must engage with the mechanics of the build" because that's the problem, there is no engagement with automation. 

Ah yes the classic "let's just cut of half of what the other person said" to completely change the meaning of the sentence. Fist of your not achieving "top DPS" if you only "AA" as you're still missing out on about 8k. Also like its been said, unless you can burst down the enemy in question before it gets to do anything: if someone can truly "AFK" through an encounter then the issue is always either: too much self-sustain on the player / group or the too little pressure / mechanical demand from the encounter. But if you really think the encounter is not a factor and it's all on the build: go ahead, join the Queen's Gauntlet and fight Liadri. Go in the arena, press 1 and "go AFK", if it's really just an issue with the build in question like some of you claim it is then it should be able to clear the fight no problem.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Treacy.4067]

12 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yup I get that point. Again, the players do engage with the content and their team in the encounter to get that damage, so it's not AFK. Continually describing this as part of the problem is a completely disingenuous way to describe it. 

Clearly, you are just one of these people that is unwilling to accept LI builds need to perform at a level that is equivalent to others to do enable low capability players to integrate.  

 

 

Again, I'm all for LI builds for people with disabilities and they should be in the game. I myself play with my left hand.  However afk automated play is not low intensity, it's no intensity.  And you're being naive if you think that this only affects raids.