Saving Daring Dragon...and Balancing Dragon Trigger

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

@Josh Davis.7865 and @Cal Cohen.2358,

 

I love the idea of Daring Dragon, especially in competitive modes.  Unfortunately, the trait suffers from clumsy mechanics and has yet to find a home in any game mode.  Below is my assessment of the problems and suggestions for improvement.

 

Fix the Mechanics:

The whole point of DD is to use DT as much as possible.  However, the current iteration re-enters DT immediately; if you move, activate another skill, or dodge, you "interrupt" DT and put it on a 4s CD.  This defeats the whole purpose of DD.  Moreover, it is a poor assumption that a player would want to re-enter DT immediately after using it.  You often need to dodge, use your heal skill, set up a damage combo, text your girlfriend, etc.  You want to be able to do those things and THEN use DT.

 

Proposal:  No longer auto-re-enter DT.  Rather, CD for DT is reduced to 0s as long as you can pay the flow cost.  In other words:

"IF Flow > 10, THEN Dragon Trigger CD =0s"

 

Increase the Damage for PvE:

Daring Dragon will likely never find a home in PvE as long as its DPS is significantly worse than 10-charge Unyielding Dragon.  If I understand correctly, the damage in PvE scales non-linearly, with the result that a 10-charge Dragon Slash does more than 2x 5-charge Dragon Slashes.  If the damage scaled more linearly, such that 2x 5-charge Dragon Slashes = 1x 10-charge Dragon Slash, there would be more potential for Daring Dragon to see use in high-end PvE content.

 

Balance Dragon Trigger:

For competitive modes especially, there is no substitute for Unyielding Dragon; unblindable, unblockable CC (with might gain, no less) is too good to pass up.  The lack of utility makes Immortal Dragon and Daring Dragon pale in comparison.  Moreover, people hate the fact that Bladesworn has access to low-CD stability, making it often feel like there is nothing you can do once an enemy BS goes into DT but try to time your dodge.  To address these issues, I propose the following changes:

 

1.) Dragonscale Defense now grants Resistance (3s) instead of stability.  (8s CD).

2.) Triggerguard now grants Aegis and 3 stacks of stability (3s).  (50s CD per charge).

 

This represents a buff-nerf for DT.  It's a Buff, because now ALL GM traits essentially have access to unblindable Dragon Slashes--they are also now resistant to weakness and immobilize, two of Bladesworn's biggest weaknesses currently.  However, this is counter-playable because the boon may be ripped or expire due to its relatively short duration.  Changing Dragonscale Defense to grant Resistance instead of stability is also a Nerf because Bladesworns in DT are now vulnerable to CC--something all professions have access to.  This is partially compensated for, of course, by adding stability to Triggerguard.  Thus, you can protect your Dragon Slashes from being interrupted...just not all the time.  

 

Circling back to the topic of this post, changing Dragonscale Defense to grant resistance buffs Daring Dragon in particular, as you will now be able to fire off multiple unblindable, unweakenable Dragon Slashes (since DD resets Dragoncale Defense).  This will make DD much more appealing, even though you're giving up the might gain, hard CC, and unblockable attack offered by Unyielding Dragon.

 

Thanks for reading! I welcome your thoughts and  feedback.

 

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

@Josh Davis.7865 and @Cal Cohen.2358,

 

I love the idea of Daring Dragon, especially in competitive modes.  Unfortunately, the trait suffers from clumsy mechanics and has yet to find a home in any game mode.  Below is my assessment of the problems and suggestions for improvement.

 

Fix the Mechanics:

The whole point of DD is to use DT as much as possible.  However, the current iteration re-enters DT immediately; if you move, activate another skill, or dodge, you "interrupt" DT and put it on a 4s CD.  This defeats the whole purpose of DD.  Moreover, it is a poor assumption that a player would want to re-enter DT immediately after using it.  You often need to dodge, use your heal skill, set up a damage combo, text your girlfriend, etc.  You want to be able to do those things and THEN use DT.

 

Proposal:  No longer auto-re-enter DT.  Rather, CD for DT is reduced to 0s as long as you can pay the flow cost.  In other words:

"IF Flow > 10, THEN Dragon Trigger CD =0s"

 

Increase the Damage for PvE:

Daring Dragon will likely never find a home in PvE as long as its DPS is significantly worse than 10-charge Unyielding Dragon.  If I understand correctly, the damage in PvE scales non-linearly, with the result that a 10-charge Dragon Slash does more than 2x 5-charge Dragon Slashes.  If the damage scaled more linearly, such that 2x 5-charge Dragon Slashes = 1x 10-charge Dragon Slash, there would be more potential for Daring Dragon to see use in high-end PvE content.

 

Balance Dragon Trigger:

For competitive modes especially, there is no substitute for Unyielding Dragon; unblindable, unblockable CC (with might gain, no less) is too good to pass up.  The lack of utility makes Immortal Dragon and Daring Dragon pale in comparison.  Moreover, people hate the fact that Bladesworn has access to low-CD stability, making it often feel like there is nothing you can do once an enemy BS goes into DT but try to time your dodge.  To address these issues, I propose the following changes:

 

1.) Dragonscale Defense now grants Resistance (3s) instead of stability.  (8s CD).

2.) Triggerguard now grants Aegis and 3 stacks of stability (3s).  (50s CD per charge).

 

This represents a buff-nerf for DT.  It's a Buff, because now ALL GM traits essentially have access to unblindable Dragon Slashes--they are also now resistant to weakness and immobilize, two of Bladesworn's biggest weaknesses currently.  However, this is counter-playable because the boon may be ripped or expire due to its relatively short duration.  Changing Dragonscale Defense to grant Resistance instead of stability is also a Nerf because Bladesworns in DT are now vulnerable to CC--something all professions have access to.  This is partially compensated for, of course, by adding stability to Triggerguard.  Thus, you can protect your Dragon Slashes from being interrupted...just not all the time.  

 

Circling back to the topic of this post, changing Dragonscale Defense to grant resistance buffs Daring Dragon in particular, as you will now be able to fire off multiple unblindable, unweakenable Dragon Slashes (since DD resets Dragoncale Defense).  This will make DD much more appealing, even though you're giving up the might gain, hard CC, and unblockable attack offered by Unyielding Dragon.

 

Thanks for reading! I welcome your thoughts and  feedback.

 

 

That would certainly balance out the GM trait's in effectiveness. But then you'll see Immortal Dragon's start to pop up, oh wait they do that already with shouts... But yeah I think it would get worse.

[Vancho.8750]

@CalmTheStorm.2364 

Just to point out that Dragonscale Defense is bugged for Unyielding Dragon and for some reason takes the Dearing dragon Dragonscale Defense reset, that bit of the tooltip is supposed to be one of the sellers of Dearing Dragon. I'm pretty sure the devs know about it but have left the bug as a band aid solution. 

[tunococman.7324]

Daring dragon already good tbh. Being able to reset stability on dragon scale is strong in a different way. Unyielding is better in group fights but daring dragon kinda better in far point distraction because you already kite better with dragon trigger being constantly available incase you get plussed since dragon boost is use-able for mobility.

It's just takes a while to get used to daring dragon compared to unyielding because sometimes you can't press your triggers too fast or too slow. Once you get used to it, it has good match ups really.

The only thing that should happen is fix how sometimes dragon boost doesn't actually leap/boost you at all.

https://webmshare.com/play/Aeb5j

Around 0:09 seconds in, sometimes dragon boost doesn't leap, if they fix it I think itll be fine as is

Also mastering Daring Dragon, they can literally run out of dodges and then you finish with rampage and it's actually fluid. Just have to time your dragon reach vs blocks and dragon boost vs dodges. It's actually really underrated, trust me. Compared to unyielding dragon, you don't care about stun breaks, daring dragon only cares how many dodges the enemy has left, which is easier than counting stun breaks imo. Buffing daring dragon potentially catastrophic actually to be fair.

But other classes are pretty obnoxious too so it can't be too drastic of a change.

Edited August 10, 2022 by tunococman.7324

[Lighter.5631]

yea unyielding dragon basically has 50% of daring dragon which reset stab, it's so funny with the bug.

simply fix the bug on unyielding dragon.

and all grand master will be equally bad and remove bladesworn from pvp meta.

doesnt even need healing nerf.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

2 hours ago, tunococman.7324 said:

Daring dragon already good tbh. Being able to reset stability on dragon scale is strong in a different way. Unyielding is better in group fights but daring dragon kinda better in far point distraction because you already kite better with dragon trigger being constantly available incase you get plussed since dragon boost is use-able for mobility.

It's just takes a while to get used to daring dragon compared to unyielding because sometimes you can't press your triggers too fast or too slow. Once you get used to it, it has good match ups really.

The only thing that should happen is fix how sometimes dragon boost doesn't actually leap/boost you at all.

https://webmshare.com/play/Aeb5j

Around 0:09 seconds in, sometimes dragon boost doesn't leap, if they fix it I think itll be fine as is

Also mastering Daring Dragon, they can literally run out of dodges and then you finish with rampage and it's actually fluid. Just have to time your dragon reach vs blocks and dragon boost vs dodges. It's actually really underrated, trust me. Compared to unyielding dragon, you don't care about stun breaks, daring dragon only cares how many dodges the enemy has left, which is easier than counting stun breaks imo. Buffing daring dragon potentially catastrophic actually to be fair.

But other classes are pretty obnoxious too so it can't be too drastic of a change.

Maybe, but the auto-re-enter DT is still clumsy and unhelpful. It needs to be available on demand.

 

Further, spamming stab is pretty unhealthy (looking at you, tempest and catalyst).

 

Further still, I would take resistance over stab in most cases. I can get stab from other sources, but resistance is nearly absent from warrior. And you are so susceptible to blind, weakness, and immob on warrior in general but BSw in particular that having resistance would be extremely valuable. All the stab in the world won't save you against a blind-spamming thief or a weakness spamming Necro. 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That would certainly balance out the GM trait's in effectiveness. But then you'll see Immortal Dragon's start to pop up, oh wait they do that already with shouts... But yeah I think it would get worse.

If a trait is overperforming they can adjust/nerf it. But the trait should be viable to begin with. 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

2 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

yea unyielding dragon basically has 50% of daring dragon which reset stab, it's so funny with the bug.

simply fix the bug on unyielding dragon.

and all grand master will be equally bad and remove bladesworn from pvp meta.

doesnt even need healing nerf.

... The goal isn't to remove bladesworn from the meta; it's to make it functional and fair. 

[tunococman.7324]

7 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

 And you are so susceptible to blind, weakness, and immob on warrior in general but BSw in particular that having resistance would be extremely valuable. All the stab in the world won't save you against a blind-spamming thief or a weakness spamming Necro. 

 

Understandable about weakness and blind, but since daring dragon allows you attack fast BACK TO BACK dragon triggers (as shown in the video), you cleanse the blinds anyways. Stability will be more value, and changing it into resistance could be a nerf

 

Mind you, in that video I was DEF TACTICS BSW

 

With STR TACTICS BSW you do more damage and you repeat burst, and building momentum makes it so you dodge more. Enemy dodges cannot keep up if you do well.

You can cleanse blinds and weakness with On My Mark and FGJ, and time it when it counts. With soldier runes you are still doing damage PLUS you have great team support and can help others.

It really isn't that bad, daring dragon is actually sleeper strong. Sure Necro and Thief still catches you through boonrip, but with daring dragon you have more mobility and you can disengage easier, and rotate better into more favorable matches. If you're unyielding dragon vs Necro and Thief, if the fight goes wrong you can't really escape, but daring dragon allows you to escape and regroup.

All sPvP-wise.

[ArielRebel.3426]

11 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

1.) Dragonscale Defense now grants Resistance (3s) instead of stability.  (8s CD).

2.) Triggerguard now grants Aegis and 3 stacks of stability (3s).  (50s CD per charge).

Dragon Scale Defense has a 60sec CD in WvW and PvP... Ppl can't complain about that. 
 

 

28 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Further still, I would take resistance over stab in most cases. I can get stab from other sources, but resistance is nearly absent from warrior. And you are so susceptible to blind, weakness, and immob on warrior in general but BSw in particular that having resistance would be extremely valuable. All the stab in the world won't save you against a blind-spamming thief or a weakness spamming Necro. 

Simply make the "blind-ignore + unblockable" part of the base kit of dragon slash instead of just for Unyielding Dragon, this way there's less incentive to always use it over Immortal Dragon or Daring Dragon. That and make Daring Dragon less glitchy and cluncky, like mentionned,  by simply giving it 0sec CD instead of re-entering Dragon Trigger mode.

 

Oh and freaking god damm make Dragon Trigger a kit in itself already. This way it will properly proc weapon switch effects and not force you to switch to Gunsaber each and every time you exit Dragon Trigger mode.
 

Edited August 10, 2022 by ArielRebel.3426

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

27 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

If a trait is overperforming they can adjust/nerf it. But the trait should be viable to begin with. 

The problem I was alluding to has to do with the elite skill not any specific trait.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

2 hours ago, ArielRebel.3426 said:

Dragon Scale Defense has a 60sec CD in WvW and PvP... Ppl can't complain about that. 

It *says*it's 60s, but it appears to be every 8s like it is in PvE.

 

Some people say this is a bug, but I suspect that they just haven't updated the tooltip to reflect an intended change to make the stab more available in competitive modes. Let's be honest; a 2.5s self root is untenable in competitive modes unless you have some defensive mechanic to protect it.

 

2 hours ago, ArielRebel.3426 said:

 

Simply make the "blind-ignore + unblockable" part of the base kit of dragon slash instead of just for Unyielding Dragon, this way there's less incentive to always use it over Immortal Dragon or Daring Dragon. That and make Daring Dragon less glitchy and cluncky, like mentionned,  by simply giving it 0sec CD instead of re-entering Dragon Trigger mode.

 

Exactly. DT needs some of that "unblindable, unblockable CC" to be part of DT at baseline. There are lots of ways you could do this (e. g., Make dragon slash attacks be unblockable at baseline, make dragon slashes daze at baseline (upgraded to a stun with unyielding dragon), etc). But I think the proposal in the OP would bring a lot of utility while not being overpowered and providing opportunities for counterplay. 

[ArielRebel.3426]

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Let's be honest; a 2.5s self root is untenable in competitive modes unless you have some defensive mechanic to protect it.

Yeah, well, I'd say we should keep stab to "once in a while" (maybe have the CD of DragonScale Defence be like 20 or 30s in competitive modes) but have a more reliably way to get resistance on demand with DT.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

11 minutes ago, ArielRebel.3426 said:

Yeah, well, I'd say we should keep stab to "once in a while" (maybe have the CD of DragonScale Defence be like 20 or 30s in competitive modes) but have a more reliably way to get resistance on demand with DT.

Agreed. That's why I suggested putting the stab on triggerguard; you still have it when you need it, but the high CD per charge keeps it in check. 

[ArielRebel.3426]

Just now, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Agreed. That's why I suggested putting the stab on triggerguard; you still have it when you need it, but the high CD per charge keeps it in check. 

Yes that would work, but I disagree about 50s CD, that's WAY too long.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

1 minute ago, ArielRebel.3426 said:

Yes that would work, but I disagree about 50s CD, that's WAY too long.

With 2 charges, though, that averages out to using it once every 25 seconds. Use is even more frequent if you're using tactical reload to gain a 3rd charge. *Shrug* the CD times are debatable, but this seems pretty reasonable to me, esp since the idea is to NOT have every DT be protected by stability.

 

Probably not worth getting too hung up on CDs anyway, as the likelihood that these suggestions will get implemented is exceedingly low 🤣😂😀🥺😭

[ArielRebel.3426]

11 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Probably not worth getting too hung up on CDs anyway, as the likelihood that these suggestions will get implemented is exceedingly low 🤣😂😀🥺😭

Indeed. I always thought how warrior mains complained a lot but as a somewhat recent warrior mainer (decided to try out BladeSworn when I returned to the game)... man it's true. It seems to be one if not the most forsaken class. There's some clear bias going on in balancing if you look at gw2wingman statistics. Raids : top 2 subclasses (firebrand and mechanist) make up for more than 40% of usage. Fractals : Firebrand makes up for a bit more than 29% which is nearly 1/3 of all usage by itself where as Bladesworn (most popular warrior subclass) doesn't even make up for 2%. Strikes : top 2 are again mechanist and firebrand totalling 44% of all usage... almost half of everybody doing strike for kitten's sake. This is outrageous. 

[Lighter.5631]

6 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

... The goal isn't to remove bladesworn from the meta; it's to make it functional and fair. 

and by simply fixing bugs alone would remove bladesworn entirely from meta lol.

you want a functional and fair class? better remake the entire bladesworn spec and rework all the core weapons.

every single time whenever warrior becomes meta, it is because it is unkillable that require 0 effort to play.

warrior the class itself is flawed to a point it can never be meta without being completely overpowered at passive/spammable self heal

Edited August 10, 2022 by Lighter.5631

[oscuro.9720]

On 8/10/2022 at 12:49 PM, ArielRebel.3426 said:

Indeed. I always thought how warrior mains complained a lot but as a somewhat recent warrior mainer (decided to try out BladeSworn when I returned to the game)... man it's true. It seems to be one if not the most forsaken class. There's some clear bias going on in balancing if you look at gw2wingman statistics. Raids : top 2 subclasses (firebrand and mechanist) make up for more than 40% of usage. Fractals : Firebrand makes up for a bit more than 29% which is nearly 1/3 of all usage by itself where as Bladesworn (most popular warrior subclass) doesn't even make up for 2%. Strikes : top 2 are again mechanist and firebrand totalling 44% of all usage... almost half of everybody doing strike for kitten's sake. This is outrageous. 

Brother, I see ye hath cast aside the crutches of thine own creation. Long past are the days of leaning upon the foolish magicses or useless morals. Forward, I say unto thee, forward march into the promised land, where blood and mead flow like a spring river fueled by the melt of the long accumulated snow that sits high upon the mountains. For you are a warrior now! Cast aside doubt and misgiving, there is no longer space for such inefficiencies. Take up your courage, take up your pride, brandish then on your chest! Come, Brother, stride up the mountain of tribulation with your thicc legs, pick up thine burden on your broad back. Join us as we march into the land that lies beyond the reach of fate, beyond the gaze of destiny. Welcome, Brother, to the cult of the warrior. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Deep Horse Stance.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

1 hour ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Brother, I see ye hath cast aside the crutches of thine own creation. Long past are the days of leaning upon the foolish magicses or useless morals. Forward, I say unto thee, forward march into the promised land, where blood and mead flow like a spring river fueled by the melt of the long accumulated snow that sits high upon the mountains. For you are a warrior now! Cast aside doubt and misgiving, there is no longer space for such inefficiencies. Take up your courage, take up your pride, brandish then on your chest! Come, Brother, stride up the mountain of tribulation with your thicc legs, pick up thine burden on your broad back. Join us as we march into the land that lies beyond the reach of fate, beyond the gaze of destiny. Welcome, Brother, to the cult of the warrior. 

Don't forget to shout incessantly while doing so

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Bumping this thread. Now that stab has been removed from Dragonscale Defense, I think the OP's recommendations deserve a second look.

 

And Daring Dragon still sucks, so making that better would also help diversify gameplay.