Well, Steam complaints are starting to flood in...

[Ashen.2907]

29 minutes ago, roederich.2716 said:

everybody knows that but where are your arguments that the current design has to be that way?

what arguments do you have for the little developement over 10 years while making so much money like they do?

anything else but personal attack attempts?

Revenue =/= profit.

3 expansions, LW maps (combined comparable to two more expansions) mounts, gliding, fishing, guild halls, two WvW maps, and more.

To be honest it feels a bit light to me too, but, "so little," seems a bit of a stretch.

[Farohna.6247]

1 minute ago, roederich.2716 said:

you know exactly that there are alot people who not always want to stop playing and rerun to some trader to rebuy tools. also toolslots ony for 1 character. want to use the tools on another character you need to use your low bank space to transfer stuff or buy shared inventory slots to do it quicker...

will you stay in a restaurant which gives you breakable fork and knife so you need to rerun to the waiter all the time during your meal?

the tactics is to make it uncomfortable so people pay and that is not a "complete collection" and not entertainment.

and with a view on anet dont doing anything in most gamemodes with the cash they make with these cheap tactics its absolutely normal people now vent to make their new steam bubble a nightmare.

think omg think 

GG

I'd say you're eating at fast food and complaining they don't have linen napkins and a waitstaff meeting all your demands and want the meal for free because you're an influencer.  

The QoL items are exactly that.  QoL.  Harvesting nodes with unbreakable tools is hardly a gameplay advantage over other players, who could have a bag full of tools for all anyone knows and rarely go to a vendor.  

Steam players are largely very familiar with paying to win as opposed the playing to win.  Being handed everything in a free to play game though is a dead horse that is beat a lot on the forums.  I've never played a game that gave me everything on day one.  

4 minutes ago, roederich.2716 said:

i only described what the people on steam understand with pay2win.

people nowadays call everything pay2win they need to pay extra in a game. having an account with minor possibility to play comfortable and need to unlock stuff for gems is what they call pay2win cause the term pay2playcomfortable has never been established.

stop trying to make the impression others not understand what happens here, can keep your gaslighting for yourself.

You're oddly defensive and I don't think you understand gaslighting, but to clear up your self doubts...  I played the game for a long time without QoL items, as do others.  It's very clearly established that you don't need any of the shinies.  

[Gregg.3970]

18 hours ago, Crono.4197 said:

The game just launched on Steam and the Steam forums are full with people that are:

 

- trying to sabotage the game by telling others to stay away from it because it's "pay to win" or other kind of lies

- people that don't understand that the Free to Play factor is only a trial and they expected full access to the game

- people that complain that 100 dollars for a full collection is too much and that "muh favorite MMO is not priced so high", completely ignoring the "no subscription" factor

- people that call the game pay to win after only logging in for a few minutes in it

- people complaining why Living Stories aren't sold separately

- people that complain about wanting regional pricing

 

Yep, what a great start. People complaining about things they don't understand and don't even wanna try the game first before coming to a conclusion.

I guess that's Steam and mainstream "gamers" for you.

 

@Crono.4197 you know something buddy people complain the world over, over literally everything and ofc that's their choice & perogative.

The best 5 STAR Rated Restaurant in the world will ALWAYS have someone that complains, and you know what if they are a customer they have the right to do so, albeit the likelihood the very vast majority of diners will leave positive reviews, why even make an issue of the ones that complain?

Same in GW2 why even make a thread regarding this, when ofc a certain sector of players will complain, always complain, "glass in life is always half-empty types" , and yes its their given right to complain and Anet can either deal with the complaints accordingly as best they can as a company or choose to ignore them :That's Anet's gain or Anet's loss. 

Personally speaking: Do I let other players complaining affect my own personal gaming experience?  Kitten NO I couldn't care less!!!

But equally neither do I have the right to preach or judge to other players whether they should complain or not, as we're all individuals,  perceive things differently, enjoy or hate different things.  

Let gamers game, forum warriors be forum warriors, let complainers be complainers, let filthy casuals be filthy casuals and toxic elitists be toxic elitists: How and why do I think like this......?

. .  . It's taken me many years, and one of the best things I ever did tbh, but I've learnt to value one word in how I feel about other fellow gamers:

 

ACCEPTANCE 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Gregg.3970

[robertthebard.8150]

27 minutes ago, roederich.2716 said:

you know exactly that there are alot people who not always want to stop playing and rerun to some trader to rebuy tools. also toolslots ony for 1 character. want to use the tools on another character you need to use your low bank space to transfer stuff or buy shared inventory slots to do it quicker...

will you stay in a restaurant which gives you breakable fork and knife so you need to rerun to the waiter all the time during your meal?

the tactics is to make it uncomfortable so people pay and that is not a "complete collection" and not entertainment.

and with a view on anet dont doing anything in most gamemodes with the cash they make with these cheap tactics its absolutely normal people now vent to make their new steam bubble a nightmare.

think omg think 

GG

I do think, and that's the problem.  I think, and therefore I don't buy into the "but it's inconvenient to not have them, so it's P2W".  You let me know when those unlimited gathering tools make you unbeatable in PvP or WvW.  Until then it comes across as more of a "but I can't afford that stuff, and I'm mad, so it's P2W" than any actual argument for what P2W actually means.

[Matthius.9104]

2 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

This makes no sense to me.  You're wanting negative reviews to punish ANet.  Negative reviews would only lead to lost revenue -- revenue that could then be used to put resources toward the content that you say is lacking.

Nice way to shoot yourself in your own foot.

They have not used any of that revenue on pvp or wvw in the last 9 years. Why would they start now? They already said and have shown that pve is a main focus. Look at the patches that have all came out. ALL pve related only. Any revenue that comes into the game will 2/3 be spent on cash shop creation stuff and paying anet. The remaining will be thrown at pve in some form or fashion.

What would be shooting yourself in the foot is if you keep giving positive reviews only, not being honest about how 2/3 of the game is abandoned and giving anet more money.

The only way recourse at this point to get ANY amount of love to pvp is to make sure we are heard on a platform that is not controlled by anet and the pve cult.

[Tukaram.8256]

Regional pricing is a problem.

I live in the Philippines - but I live on American dollars (gloriously retired). So the prices are not a problem for me.  The minimum wage here is about $6 a day!  Yes... a day, not an hour. For them $100 is more than 2 month's rent.

[Tukaram.8256]

48 minutes ago, roederich.2716 said:

you know exactly that there are alot people who not always want to stop playing and rerun to some trader to rebuy tools.

Yes, and for the lazy people (like me) you can buy unbreakable tools.  That is an optional quality of life upgrade, not a pay2play or pay2win item.  Only my main has a set of unbreakable tools. The rest of my avatars buy from vendors, if you carry one set of spares with you then you will never run out during a wandering session.  😎

[Miragen.6127]

Think if there is so much confusion around then you need to look into why it exists and who has done a poor job at explaining what is going on, and if people play the game and think it's pay to win you should wonder why the game leads them to believe it is pay to win, instead of dismissing them as trolls or whatever.

[Rumpus.1234]

2 minutes ago, Miragen.6127 said:

 the game leads them to believe it is pay to win

In my neck of the woods we call this here a disingenuous argument.

[Miragen.6127]

Just now, Rumpus.1234 said:

In my neck of the woods we call this here a disingenuous argument.

 

And in my neck of the woods that's called dismissing someone's experience and being unwilling to consider a different viewpoint and instead just calling them trolls because that's the easy thing to do.

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,
Just a reminder to keep it civil and avoid fighting with each other.
Regards.

[Matthius.9104]

Here is something nobody has thought about. All the spam positive reviews from accounts with less than an hour playtime, especially the one liners, are going to seem like fake bot reviews to the average steam user. They will think its another korean / chinese garbage game and swerve right around it.

[Rumpus.1234]

12 minutes ago, Miragen.6127 said:

 

And in my neck of the woods that's called dismissing someone's experience and being unwilling to consider a different viewpoint and instead just calling them trolls because that's the easy thing to do.

Let's discuss "pay to win". There are games that are legitimately unfair and give people willing to spend the cash a competitive advantage. GW2 is good about equity in competition, from leveling out sPVP to making all gear stats accessible in game for in game currency. No matter how much real money someone pours into gems, they can't do better, just look shinier.

Bank slots and other conveniences are not a competitive advantage. There's no messaging failure, anyone calling GW2 pay to win just really doesn't understand what pay to win means. Or they could be trolling. But that's not my call.

EDIT: I figure people can call me out about "equity in competition" because of profession balance, sure there's fixes to be made, but let's just say, uh, two Mechanists, each alike in dignity.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Rumpus.1234

[Miragen.6127]

2 minutes ago, Rumpus.1234 said:

Let's discuss "pay to win". There are games that are legitimately unfair and give people willing to spend the cash a competitive advantage. GW2 is very, very good about equity in competition, from leveling out sPVP to making all gear stats accessible in game for in game currency. No matter how much real money someone pours into gems, they can't do better, just look shinier.

Bank slots and other conveniences are not a competitive advantage. There's no messaging failure, anyone calling GW2 pay to win just really doesn't understand what pay to win means. Or they could be trolling. But that's not my call.

 

It's not about what pay to win is, or even if GW2 is pay to win or not, it's about people not being under the impression that the game is something that it's not.

OP states :  

Quote

people that call the game pay to win after only logging in for a few minutes in it 

Yeah sure, you can say they are wrong but that is not the point, the point is why do people think this? Just saying they don't understand or dismissing them as trolls is not in anyone's best interest.

[Rumpus.1234]

1 minute ago, Miragen.6127 said:

Yeah sure, you can say they are wrong but that is not the point, the point is why do people think this? Just saying they don't understand or dismissing them as trolls is not in anyone's best interest.

Maybe their chosen form of competition is wagging their bank sizes at each other? Then GW2 really is P2W.

[robertthebard.8150]

28 minutes ago, Miragen.6127 said:

 

It's not about what pay to win is, or even if GW2 is pay to win or not, it's about people not being under the impression that the game is something that it's not.

OP states :  

Yeah sure, you can say they are wrong but that is not the point, the point is why do people think this? Just saying they don't understand or dismissing them as trolls is not in anyone's best interest.

They think this because some of them legit believe that there shouldn't be any cash shops, in any games, ever.  I have seen the argument made that any post release content should be free, because the poster "bought the box" on release.  I have seen people carry the same "but cash shop" attitude into SP games, calling them P2W.  Win against whom, in a Single Player game? 

Some of them use P2W to describe other concepts, such as contempt for loot boxes.  Not to say that there can't be some P2W elements included in a loot box, but even where there isn't one, they're P2W, because that's the only argument they know.  When they lay out what they believe makes the game P2W, and it's not something that fits into the actual definition of P2W, there's no need to "look at their perspective", because their perspective is wrong.  You point it out and go on.

Or you discuss it with them, so that people that aren't in their bubble can see just how twisted the use of P2W has become.

[RadiantWolf.2058]

17 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Who said that? It's the truth that you only pay for expansions on other MMORPGs. That's the market standard. There are no "Living World episodes" in other MMORPGs after all. And yes, it's sketchy hat these episodes cost money in GW2 - since they're free if you play the game when they're being released.

The Elder Scrolls Online, our sister in the market of non-subscription western MMOs, also charges by the episode. Sometimes people don't notice because they pay the optional sub which gives automatic access to all DLC unless it's called an expansion

 

The DLC chapters in ESO are basically their living world. So far we've got:

 

• Ascending Tide   ♦   Blackwood (Expansion)  ♦  Clockwork City  ♦  Dark Brotherhood  ♦  Dragon Bones  ♦  Dragonhold  ♦ Deadlands ♦  Elsweyr  (Expansion) ♦  Flames of Ambition  ♦  Gates of Oblivion  ♦  Greymoor (Expansion)  ♦  Harrowstorm  ♦  Horns of the Reach  ♦ High Isle Expansion ♦  Imperial City  (now free)♦  Markarth  ♦  Morrowind  (Expansion) ♦  Murkmire  ♦  Orsinium  ♦  Scalebreaker  ♦  Shadows of the Hist  ♦  Stonethorn  ♦  Summerset  (Expansion)  ♦  Thieves Guild  ♦  Wolfhunter  ♦  Wrathstone

 

They're just more up front about DLCs being bought individually. And unlike in GW2 they are never free, except Imperial City, even if you are there when they go live.

Edited August 24, 2022 by RadiantWolf.2058

[RadiantWolf.2058]

47 minutes ago, Miragen.6127 said:

 

It's not about what pay to win is, or even if GW2 is pay to win or not, it's about people not being under the impression that the game is something that it's not.

OP states :  

Yeah sure, you can say they are wrong but that is not the point, the point is why do people think this? Just saying they don't understand or dismissing them as trolls is not in anyone's best interest.

 

The Gem Store does offer solutions to problems built into the game, chiefly inventory ones. And I do think this is an issue. Bag slots should be able to be bought in game and we should be able to stack harvesting tools. Just those two things would go a long way in softening the gem store. I know it won't happen at this point but it would be nice.

 

Still, is it pay to win? I'd say no. And some of these new players might not realize that once they learn the game and get good at making gold they can earn enough gold to buy things from the gem store with only in game currency. It takes a loooong time to get there but I don't think any purchase makes or breaks the game early on except the Living Worlds (I am glad new players have a more straightforward way of getting these up front).

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

10 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Which notabe mmorpg regulary offers free "content" patches tho? WoW doesn't, FFXIV doesn't, ESO doesn't. Free content is not the norm.

literally in all MMOs you just listed there is story content after the expansion added later on. disregarding the monthly fees WoW has dungeons, raids and numerous story update for "free". Same with FF14, either the uneven or even patches provide additional story, whilst the other patches provide gameplay content and ESO give you depending how many part an expansion has the parts for free without the need to purchase them separately as new players need to do with living world in guild wars2.

"BuT tHe MoNtHlY fEeS!" you may be typing furiously on your keyboard but here is the thing. you pay them even if you do NOT buy the expansion packs: in

In ESO you get minor DLC stuff but NO expansions and thus new stories only come with extra purchase.

In WoW you can run around the old 1-60 zones and never went into BC and later expansions you still need to pay the fees.

FF14 is a bit different in that as it offers the core game and the first expansion for free and only if you got further you'd be requested to pay monthly, but one can reasonably expect that to expand to storm blood and shadowbringer eventually. But you'd still be paying a monthly fee and NO story access if you stayed in stormblood. heck there would have been a riot last summer during the WoW refugee crisis if the entire ul'dah story line leading up to heavensward would have been an extra purchase. AND YES this entire story line and royal assassination plot were free patch update story content.

Monthly fees are not relevant to access to story but access to the game itself regardless of what story content you have access to.  And the average and also majority MMO player outside of GW2 will see the numerous skins in the gemstore as monthly fee circumvention.
but NOT the story. story in any other MMO was and always has been tied to the expansion purchase even patches adding stuff later.
 

[Miragen.6127]

13 minutes ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

They think this because some of them legit believe that there shouldn't be any cash shops, in any games, ever.  I have seen the argument made that any post release content should be free, because the poster "bought the box" on release.  I have seen people carry the same "but cash shop" attitude into SP games, calling them P2W.  Win against whom, in a Single Player game? 

Some of them use P2W to describe other concepts, such as contempt for loot boxes.  Not to say that there can't be some P2W elements included in a loot box, but even where there isn't one, they're P2W, because that's the only argument they know.  When they lay out what they believe makes the game P2W, and it's not something that fits into the actual definition of P2W, there's no need to "look at their perspective", because their perspective is wrong.  You point it out and go on.

Or you discuss it with them, so that people that aren't in their bubble can see just how twisted the use of P2W has become.

 

It's not pay to win in GW2, but cash shops have always been a freemium model used in free to play MMOs in which they often are, I definitely do not appreciate seeing cash shops in games with a $60 price tag, or $100+ in the case of GW2.

 

[robertthebard.8150]

2 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

literally in all MMOs you just listed there is story content after the expansion added later on. disregarding the monthly fees WoW has dungeons, raids and numerous story update for "free". Same with FF14, either the uneven or even patches provide additional story, whilst the other patches provide gameplay content and ESO give you depending how many part an expansion has the parts for free without the need to purchase them separately as new players need to do with living world in guild wars2.

"BuT tHe MoNtHlY fEeS!" you may be typing furiously on your keyboard but here is the thing. you pay them even if you do NOT buy the expansion packs: in

In ESO you get minor DLC stuff but NO expansions and thus new stories only come with extra purchase.

In WoW you can run around the old 1-60 zones and never went into BC and later expansions you still need to pay the fees.

FF14 is a bit different in that as it offers the core game and the first expansion for free and only if you got further you'd be requested to pay monthly, but one can reasonably expect that to expand to storm blood and shadowbringer eventually. But you'd still be paying a monthly fee and NO story access if you stayed in stormblood. heck there would have been a riot last summer during the WoW refugee crisis if the entire ul'dah story line leading up to heavensward would have been an extra purchase. AND YES this entire story line and royal assassination plot were free patch update story content.

Monthly fees are not relevant to access to story but access to the game itself regardless of what story content you have access to.  And the average and also majority MMO player outside of GW2 will see the numerous skins in the gemstore as monthly fee circumvention.
but NOT the story. story in any other MMO was and always has been tied to the expansion purchase even patches adding stuff later.
 

No, ESO doesn't.  Those extras are free, so long as you pay your sub, if you don't buy them, and drop your sub, you will no longer be able to access them.  So, you have a choice, buy them outright, or pay by the month, but either way, they are not free.

[RadiantWolf.2058]

I do wish there was a way to make living worlds free baseline for everyone, and I do say that as someone who has paid for them already.

They're such strong content on their own and HUGELY important to setting up the expansions. That is the main issue with the price tag to me. It makes them seem optional when, really, if you want to have a linear story experience as a new player they super aren't.

ESO has this issue too where some DLC chapters lead into the expansions (Ascending Tide is the precursor to High Isle for example). But ESO's story is kinda a mess.

[robertthebard.8150]

1 minute ago, Miragen.6127 said:

 

It's not pay to win in GW2, but cash shops have always been a freemium model used in free to play MMOs in which they often are, I definitely do not appreciate seeing cash shops in games with a $60 price tag, or $100+ in the case of GW2.

 

What is it, do you suppose, that pays for future development?  Good will?  That'll go a long way, just read through some of the first page here to find that out.  There is no monthly subscription fee here, so people's paychecks have to come from somewhere.  The lack of actual P2W elements in this shop is held up in every other MMO forum, except this one, as how a cash shop should be done.  Isn't that ironic?

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

1 hour ago, Miragen.6127 said:

 

It's not about what pay to win is, or even if GW2 is pay to win or not, it's about people not being under the impression that the game is something that it's not.

OP states :  

Yeah sure, you can say they are wrong but that is not the point, the point is why do people think this? Just saying they don't understand or dismissing them as trolls is not in anyone's best interest.

it is P2w if you stop using only a 17 year old mindset. what you know is p2w is only the most blatant form of it. 
But when games shift focus from mastery and success over others to ...let's say... cosmetics...HAVING a cosmetic is an "advantage" over those who do NOT HAVE it.

It's a psychological game of "have's" and "not-have's"
here is how 6-7 years ago this was already known and merely presented to a broad field of publishers, CEOs and managers. 

basically the games industry has already changed what p2w means and since most gamers are not interested in the business side of the industry, they completely slept on how they are being  fed a mindset that is not up-to-date anymore

Edited August 24, 2022 by ShroomOneUp.6913

[Miragen.6127]

4 minutes ago, RadiantWolf.2058 said:

 

The Gem Store does offer solutions to problems built into the game, chiefly inventory ones. And I do think this is an issue. Bag slots should be able to be bought in game and we should be able to stack harvesting tools. Just those two things would go a long way in softening the gem store. I know it won't happen at this point but it would be nice.

 

Still, is it pay to win? I'd say no. And some of these new players might not realize that once they learn the game and get good at making gold they can earn enough gold to buy things from the gem store with only in game currency. It takes a loooong time to get there but I don't think any purchase makes or breaks the game early on except the Living Worlds (I am glad new players have a more straightforward way of getting these up front).

 

I don't think it's pay to win, but it doesn't mean that to new players it might look that way if they see all these items without knowing exactly what it is and what alternatives you can obtain, a perspective worth considering.

 

Inventory management is a pain, every few minutes you have to stop and salvage items, store materials, destroy or sell junk, then find a merchant again to buy new salvage kits or harvesting tools and that is something you perpetually have to deal with, it's not pay to win, but it's annoying, your bank space is also very limited and you'll quickly run into issues with that as well.

 

Mechanics that remind you of free to play, pay to win MMOs and honestly feel tacky and cheap, which is a shame that it degrades the game like that.