Fervent Force trait is broken.

[Antycypator.9874]

Disabling a foe reduces the cooldown of all of your equipped skills by 4 seconds (1/4s cooldown)

...which means: exploiting this trait allows you to gain literally unlimited power. So... having lots of self-sustain with almost no trade-offs (remember the balance patch that came out with EoD release?) is bad because together we are stronger, but having CDs reduced by more than 50% (using only 1 trait) while being able to pull out 25k DPS in Open World SOLO (against champs, not training golem) is OK?

Why isn't it on higher CD? Or maybe once per interval against foes with breakbar? Or recharge one of your equipped skill? Or recharge specific skills, for example only cantrips?

Here's list of similar traits for comparison:

Chaotic Interruption (Mesmer /Chaos) — recharge one of your equipped-weapon skills at random.
Payback (Deadeye) — When Renewing Gaze triggers this trait restores a portion of the recharge needed by your healing, utility and elite skills. [You can somehow exploit this trait but only by killing mobs one-by-one, which doesn't work against champions]
Renewed Justice (Guardian /Radiance) — Virtue skill 1 is reduced when you kill a foe [but for Firebrands it's recharge Tome of Justice by 20%]
Augury of Death (Necromancer /Reaper) — Shouts gain additional recharge reduction for each foe they hit [5% per target]
Dread (Necromancer /Spite) — Shroud skill 3 partially recharges when you defeat foes [by 50%, but only 1 specific skill]
Restorative Virtues (Willbender) — Triggered virtue effects reduce the cooldown of active weapon abilities [by 1/4s]

Do you see something THAT overpowered? Recharge F1 skill, recharge skill #3, partially recharge specific set of skills, weapons skills. Not literally EVERYTHING.

Untamed can be more broken than Mechanist, you just need to push little more buttons than spamming AA rifle.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

Because they knew Untamed is pretty garbage outside of it.

 

Let's be honest- what's outstanding outside of FF? Ferocious Symbiosis isn't that great, it needs you or your pet to constantly be attacking. The unleash pet skills aren't great.  Pets aren't boosted in any way. There isn't enough defensive utility for pets for wvw. Very little defensive utility in general, personal or otherwise. It doesn't function well.

 

Fervent Force is the only reason Untamed has a competitive DPS option as well.

[Antycypator.9874]

35 minutes ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

Fervent Force is the only reason Untamed has a competitive DPS option as well.

This trait does too many things, and by "too many things" I mean it recharges every skill at once; it could be only for weapon skills, not for Utilities, Healing & Elite to gain so much solo potential. It's not just DPS increase, but also self-support (healing and boon). Is there something you have to sacrifice for it? — for example Parasitic Contagion vs. Lingering Curse (200condi damage and +50% condi duration or 5% healing from condi damage — this is HUGE difference). Invigorating Precision vs. No Quarter (+16% crit damage or 6% healing from damage), Might Makes Right vs. Berserker's Power (good healing through might or massive increase of strike damage by 7-21%).

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

22 minutes ago, Antycypator.9874 said:

This trait does too many things, and by "too many things" I mean it recharges every skill at once; it could be only for weapon skills, not for Utilities, Healing & Elite to gain so much solo potential. It's not just DPS increase, but also self-support (healing and boon). Is there something you have to sacrifice for it? — for example Parasitic Contagion vs. Lingering Curse (200condi damage and +50% condi duration or 5% healing from condi damage — this is HUGE difference). Invigorating Precision vs. No Quarter (+16% crit damage or 6% healing from damage), Might Makes Right vs. Berserker's Power (good healing through might or massive increase of strike damage by 7-21%).

Oh yeah it's insanely broken.

 

But it's either broken or busted for untamed right now. It's not good enough to make untamed the best in slot DPS, as it doesn't provide much group support and is incredibly difficult, but I'd rather it be broken OP but not meta than just awful like it was in the past.

[Antycypator.9874]

33 minutes ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

But it's either broken or busted for untamed right now. It's not good enough to make untamed the best in slot DPS, as it doesn't provide much group support and is incredibly difficult, but I'd rather it be broken OP but not meta than just awful like it was in the past.

Does actually someone care about how much support you can provide — exept CC skills — as a damage dealer? I've done more than 1000 successful raid-boss encounters (85% as a pug) and nobody really cared about DPS class. You just need to bring big numbers, or in some cases be power or condi. Especialy today, when there are no unique boons (Assassin's Presence, Spotter...)

[Beddo.1907]

The trait is broken, but it's on ranger who has barely any good cooldowns.
Also pulling high dps on a golem when you play on a piano made out of skills isn't the best balance indicator.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

Because they knew Untamed is pretty garbage outside of it.

 

Let's be honest- what's outstanding outside of FF? Ferocious Symbiosis isn't that great, it needs you or your pet to constantly be attacking. The unleash pet skills aren't great.  Pets aren't boosted in any way. There isn't enough defensive utility for pets for wvw. Very little defensive utility in general, personal or otherwise. It doesn't function well.

 

Fervent Force is the only reason Untamed has a competitive DPS option as well.

The only real use case for Ferocious Symbiosis is Power Greatsword and Longbow since they have long cooldowns on their stuns. Some sort of Teleporting one shooting build I guess.

11 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

The trait is broken, but it's on ranger who has barely any good cooldowns.
Also pulling high dps on a golem when you play on a piano made out of skills isn't the best balance indicator.

The rotation is worse than a piano since you can interrupt your Axe 2 very easily so its more like a Electric Guitar level of playing. Not to mention weapon swamping at 8 and Ambush at 15 seconds, You might as well have an overlay counters since a single icon on the bar for the Ambush skill is impossible to see.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I'm not sure if I'm happier people are off the 'Dolyak Stance is broken!' wagon and onto this one or annoyed at these types of topics which post a bunch of crap and not have any tradeoff in mind.

Especially since I can '25k open world solo champs' with a power soulbeast and use 100% less buttons to do so.  

Fervent Force is not broken because ranger has few good disables.  To bring more disables you ruin your bar or have to run spirits and ruin your already awful damage.

Really the last sentence tells me everything though--where exactly is Mechanist broken at the moment outside nuking players that shouldn't be in competitive or pulling big numbers on easy bosses? That is to say a LOT of things are more broken than Mechanist at the moment lol.  

[Dadnir.5038]

Everybody know that fervent force is imbalanced, the issue is that Untamed wouldn't be good enough without that much power into this single trait.

There are many professions that have traits that similarly overshadow the other trait options of their traitline. Unfortunately it is a pretty common occurence.

[Mell.4873]

I really hope they don't touch or change Fervent Force since it really makes this Elite Specialization. I mean we have no reason to pick it for DPS if they nerfed or removed this trait.

The main reason I use Untamed over Soulbeast is purely how tanky it can be even if technically it is less damage (100 APM build is literally impossible to do).

[Levetty.1279]

Everybody knew the trait was OP since beta but nobody cared because neither core nor Untamed had anything worth abusing it for.

Axe 2 buff finally gave it something but it still isn't mind boggling. Untamed needs to be reworked from the ground up.

[Inoke.8793]

Honestly if it didn't have this trait it'd be be unplayable. With this trait in raids/strikes you can do alac DPS, DPS, heal alac, or tank heal alac. But unless you have practiced a lot/are epic at the game for DPS compared to the others on your team you won't be best in slot by far for any of those options and I wouldn't heal outside of a static or experienced group with it, as it is on the more difficult end. I say this after having fully tank heal alac untamed earlier tonight in w1-4, including several cms. It lacks more of the bursty heals.

The only real thing that it breaks would be near unlimited use of claim on MO.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Inoke.8793

[Jianyu.7065]

On 9/3/2022 at 7:25 PM, Levetty.1279 said:

Everybody knew the trait was OP since beta but nobody cared because neither core nor Untamed had anything worth abusing it for.

Axe 2 buff finally gave it something but it still isn't mind boggling. Untamed needs to be reworked from the ground up.

 

What is the likelihood of a ground up rebuild? Serious question. Has Anet done this with any other traitline/class. And if that's the case, how many other classes need a ground up rebuild - I'm sure many players can make a case here. In any event, a rebuild probably doesn't happen before a nerf; which hopefully isn't happening soon either since FF is making Untamed "playable".

[Beddo.1907]

1 hour ago, Jianyu.7065 said:

 

What is the likelihood of a ground up rebuild? Serious question. Has Anet done this with any other traitline/class. And if that's the case, how many other classes need a ground up rebuild - I'm sure many players can make a case here. In any event, a rebuild probably doesn't happen before a nerf; which hopefully isn't happening soon either since FF is making Untamed "playable".

I believe Tempest got some major changes shortly after it was out, but can't say for sure since it was LONG ago and I didn't really focus on balance changes at the time.

We were promised Untamed changes a few months back, so the longer it takes the bigger the difference from the base.
This combined with how many design issues Untamed has, makes it reasonable to assume it's going to be rebuild.
However I don't think they will do ANYTHING to Untamed (and FF) until the main changes, since it's only over performing on paper and in reality it's inconsistent in gameplay. Also after what happened to Catalyst, Anet said that they will be more careful with nerfing.

As you can see it's mostly a speculation.

 

[Mell.4873]

15 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

I believe Tempest got some major changes shortly after it was out, but can't say for sure since it was LONG ago and I didn't really focus on balance changes at the time.

We were promised Untamed changes a few months back, so the longer it takes the bigger the difference from the base.
This combined with how many design issues Untamed has, makes it reasonable to assume it's going to be rebuild.
However I don't think they will do ANYTHING to Untamed (and FF) until the main changes, since it's only over performing on paper and in reality it's inconsistent in gameplay. Also after what happened to Catalyst, Anet said that they will be more careful with nerfing.

As you can see it's mostly a speculation.

 

Untamed is fine the way it is. It has its place in the Meta which is a high APM sustain build as appose to Soulbeast which is a low APM burst build.

Currently you can build a ranger around both these concepts, conceivably a support Spirit Untamed or Soulbeast can be made with the same idea in mind. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Levetty.1279]

22 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Untamed is fine the way it is. It has its place in the Meta which is a high APM sustain build as appose to Soulbeast which is a low APM burst build.

Why do you keep using words you don't know the meaning of?

[Mell.4873]

2 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Why do you keep using words you don't know the meaning of?

Okay let break it down more.

If you want to play Soulbeast in end-game you are waiting for Exposure since you want your burst rotation 40k+ to do the most damage. This means waiting for your cooldowns and trying to do the most damage during this window. Most if not all fractals speed runs relying on this fact.

Untamed is different since it relies on using Fervent Force to reset Axe 2 Splitblade. This can be reset every time you CC so you have to hit this skill first between CC and most of the Ranger CC skills don't trigger right away so it worse than a Keyboard playstyle since it is very easy to accidentally animation cancel Axe 2 or miss the stun window of 6 second (so 2 seconds).
 

I hope that makes sense now.

[Sirius.4510]

There is a place in the game for high-difficulty, high-reward builds but I think the Untamed in its current incarnation takes it too far. If only 1-2% of Ranger players can play it well enough that they wouldn't perform better just running Soulbeast, it's getting awfully close to the "does this spec really need to exist?" threshold.

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, Sirius.4510 said:

There is a place in the game for high-difficulty, high-reward builds but I think the Untamed in its current incarnation takes it too far. If only 1-2% of Ranger players can play it well enough that they wouldn't perform better just running Soulbeast, it's getting awfully close to the "does this spec really need to exist?" threshold.

I think the biggest problem is the current top Untamed build isn't the only thing that is on offer but it is all people see when they go on benchmark websites (Metabattle is even worse) 

I mean a perfect ranger example is the fact that a hybrid builds literally got deleted untill recently when they realised hybrid Soulbeast has better numbers. 

I mean a good build I currently run is Power Hammer Untamed which doesn't have as much burst as Soulbeast but easily can keep up with its sustain. 

[Levetty.1279]

13 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Okay let break it down more.

If you want to play Soulbeast in end-game you are waiting for Exposure since you want your burst rotation 40k+ to do the most damage. This means waiting for your cooldowns and trying to do the most damage during this window. Most if not all fractals speed runs relying on this fact.

Untamed is different since it relies on using Fervent Force to reset Axe 2 Splitblade. This can be reset every time you CC so you have to hit this skill first between CC and most of the Ranger CC skills don't trigger right away so it worse than a Keyboard playstyle since it is very easy to accidentally animation cancel Axe 2 or miss the stun window of 6 second (so 2 seconds).
 

I hope that makes sense now.

I repeat my question.

[Mell.4873]

16 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

I repeat my question.

What words? 

[draxynnic.3719]

On 9/3/2022 at 6:36 AM, Antycypator.9874 said:

Does actually someone care about how much support you can provide — exept CC skills — as a damage dealer? I've done more than 1000 successful raid-boss encounters (85% as a pug) and nobody really cared about DPS class. You just need to bring big numbers, or in some cases be power or condi. Especialy today, when there are no unique boons (Assassin's Presence, Spotter...)

This is where a lot of the strength (and therefore hate) of firebrand comes from. A full DPS firebrand has somewhat lower DPS than average for DPS roles, but it has a fair amount of support through tomes in a pinch, and can bring additional support if needed with relatively small DPS losses. Quickbrand and healbrand, similarly, aren't strong because they do their basic jobs better than others, but because they can often cover a third or fourth function as well.

How much of a difference that really makes depends on the quality of the group and the specific circumstances of the encounter, however. Ideally, for instance, a DPS firebrand will never touch tome 2, and will only use tome 3 for mechanics if at all. But having the potential to bring more than your basic role(s) is generally an advantage.

[anduriell.6280]

Another wiki warrior. This is very disheartning. 

If instead using the wiki to ask for nerfs why not you play the game with the unDeveloped.

Just do PvP in that gamemode you don't need to grind or forced to do the scavenger hunt for the pets. This last pets being gated behind meta events is just disgusting. 

Once you do that come back here and share your experiences. Yes it is fine if you admit you were in the wrong. 

 

[Sirius.4510]

On 9/8/2022 at 3:06 AM, Mell.4873 said:

I think the biggest problem is the current top Untamed build isn't the only thing that is on offer but it is all people see when they go on benchmark websites (Metabattle is even worse) 

I mean a perfect ranger example is the fact that a hybrid builds literally got deleted untill recently when they realised hybrid Soulbeast has better numbers. 

I mean a good build I currently run is Power Hammer Untamed which doesn't have as much burst as Soulbeast but easily can keep up with its sustain. 

Yeah, you do have to go looking for non-meta stuff. Power hammer untamed looks like it isn't bad but it's about 1-2k dps less for a much harder rotation; the video I found on YouTube manages 34.8k, and the player in question had to turn off autoattacks to get there (and is by no means a noob, I've seen them in the leaderboards on Wingman quite a bit).

Meanwhile I've hit 35.5k on greatsword soulbeast, and Umbra has a 36.4k video... and that doesn't require even close to a 100 APM rotation to do it...

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

54 minutes ago, Sirius.4510 said:

Yeah, you do have to go looking for non-meta stuff. Power hammer untamed looks like it isn't bad but it's about 1-2k dps less for a much harder rotation; the video I found on YouTube manages 34.8k, and the player in question had to turn off autoattacks to get there (and is by no means a noob, I've seen them in the leaderboards on Wingman quite a bit).

Meanwhile I've hit 35.5k on greatsword soulbeast, and Umbra has a 36.4k video... and that doesn't require even close to a 100 APM rotation to do it...

Yeah on paper untamed is great and if you can remotely hit the number for the strong builds I definetly reccomend it but you need to be a real epic gamer to get those numbers. Soulbeast is currently better (thank God cslb is back)