Why warrior lacks so hard in utility?

[Zekent.3652]

There are classes like ranger that got a really big amount of utility from their traits, and then there's warrior, the damage is fine, but there's no utility that allows you to land that damage properly, and the class is also too egoistic to be a warrior, a general overhaul is needed.

[Nova.4608]

Because the class is outdated in almost everything it does while other classes are kept up to date, because of having received unjustified nerfs due to Especs (brace for the incoming nerfs to core due to Bladesworn), because classes over time have gotten copy-pastes of warrior abilities but updated to keep up with current metas so they're just straight up better.

One quick example off the top of my head of this is Rush and Phantom's Onslaught. The latter is just a copy-pasted Rush with it's bugs fixed, additional effects slapped ontop, a faster activation time and less cooldown.

Who knows, maybe with recent developments something might change in the upcoming patch but I doubt it'll bring anything outside of Bladesworn nerfs that will, inevitably, end up nerfing the Core class.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Nova.4608

[Fueki.4753]

It's because they have neglected Warrior more than every other profession so far.

Maybe that will change with the latest changes in the skill design team.

But do yourself a favour and do not have any hopes for Warrior.

[eXruina.4956]

not really much we can do but wait, *again, and all will be made plain based on what they push out.

[Shao.7236]

Utility is not that bad, the cooldowns tho. God awful.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Utility is not that bad, the cooldowns tho. God awful.

I would speed up the projectile speed on Throw Bolas, the distance traveled and speed on Kick. I'd also remove the precast delay on Signet of Fury as it has no cast time listed, but still has a psuedo cast time.

On My Mark needs to be an AoE rather than a targeted skill, and change the name to "No One Can Save You!"
"Fear Me!" Needs ammo like the other shouts, or a reduced cast time.
Berserker Stance needs Resolution to be pulsed.

Sundering Leap needs to go further (900 range). Wild Blow needs damage back. Ourtage needs its 10s CD back. Shattering Blow needs a longer block window and a flipover to shatter it early. BE needs to rip more boons, Sight Beyond Sight should be an effect that last for several seconds that makes you blind immune and have guaranteed crits.

Needs a bit more than just CD reductions, though some of that is of course my opinion.

[oscuro.9720]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I would speed up the projectile speed on Throw Bolas, the distance traveled and speed on Kick. I'd also remove the precast delay on Signet of Fury as it has no cast time listed, but still has a psuedo cast time.

On My Mark needs to be an AoE rather than a targeted skill, and change the name to "No One Can Save You!"
"Fear Me!" Needs ammo like the other shouts, or a reduced cast time.
Berserker Stance needs Resolution to be pulsed.

Sundering Leap needs to go further (900 range). Wild Blow needs damage back. Ourtage needs its 10s CD back. Shattering Blow needs a longer block window and a flipover to shatter it early. BE needs to rip more boons, Sight Beyond Sight should be an effect that last for several seconds that makes you blind immune and have guaranteed crits.

Needs a bit more than just CD reductions, though some of that is of course my opinion.

Just to add a few more utils;

Break Enchantment needs to strip more boons in WvW (why does it strip 4 in pvp and 2 in WvW? You could up it to 5 tbh),

Sight Beyond Sight should make all attacks critically hit for the duration or remove boons,

Imminent Threat should have protection as well, or be a stunbreak, 

Featherfoot Grace should have barrier as well
 

Edited September 12, 2022 by oscuro.9720
Phone auto correct make life hard

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I would speed up the projectile speed on Throw Bolas, the distance traveled and speed on Kick. I'd also remove the precast delay on Signet of Fury as it has no cast time listed, but still has a psuedo cast time.

On My Mark needs to be an AoE rather than a targeted skill, and change the name to "No One Can Save You!"
"Fear Me!" Needs ammo like the other shouts, or a reduced cast time.
Berserker Stance needs Resolution to be pulsed.

Sundering Leap needs to go further (900 range). Wild Blow needs damage back. Ourtage needs its 10s CD back. Shattering Blow needs a longer block window and a flipover to shatter it early. BE needs to rip more boons, Sight Beyond Sight should be an effect that last for several seconds that makes you blind immune and have guaranteed crits.

Needs a bit more than just CD reductions, though some of that is of course my opinion.

Believe in their ability to at least change the cooldowns first then I'm sure we can definitely tell if something else is needed.

The slightest overperformance always resulted in 2 to 3 way nerf that made the involved skill dead.

I can promise you I ain't kidding when I say it, you can look at core revenant legends just to confirm my statement.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Gorem.8104]

What I find interesting about Warrior utilities is even when we get new ones, the new ones still feel outdated and not as strong as they should be. Take flow stabilizer, it was nerfed and had its stab removed and replaced with fury, a boon we get from basically everything else before eod launch. Why can't it give both? Pretty much every single utility we have is weaker then what other classes get, Spellbreaker used to have an interesting Elite in WoD, but they nerfed it hard because they like us playing wvw only by boon balling, the thing everyone in game almost hates. 

I'd give Warrior buffs across the board and make our signet buffing trait give us signet buffs even when they are on cooldown (like other classes get). Every utility, even our newest ones should be buffed in some way more so then just reduced cooldowns. On my Ranger, in Soulbeast, a single utility can change the tide of an entire battle. Just one. Pop Dolyak stance? suddenly i'm taking 0 damage while its active and can live through anything and am able to get a full heal off. Warrior? We can kick and strip one buff off. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Gorem.8104

[Mungrul.9358]

The problem with buffing warrior even slightly is we've spent so long playing a nerfed profession, even a minor boost would result in an outsized effect because of this simple fact:

 

Warriors are now better players than all the other professions.

 

*FLEX*

We have spent years in the gutters, scrabbling for scraps. Those who have survived are the strongest of the strong, more cunning than the Wall Street broker, more brutal than a car crash.

Give us an inch and we will take the proverbial mile.

That mile shall be paved with the skulls of the vanquished.

And ANet will drown in the sea of tears shed by the other professions.

/*END FLEX*

 

And more seriously, that's probably a large part of why ANet doesn't know what to do with Warrior. In the past, Warriors have learned to leverage their tools to the best of their abilities. When they were nerfed, they remained the only tools available to the profession, so players had to learn to perform at the same level as other professions with inferior tools.

Buff those tools and you're going to see a lot of whining... as Warriors frolick in the fields of severed limbs reaching for the sky like grisly sunflowers... 

Ahem. Got carried away again.

[Fueki.4753]

7 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Warriors are now better players than all the other professions.

That's not a respectable reason excuse to let Warrior remain in its current neutered state. There'll always be people who want to enjoy Warrior and are not part of those "better" players.

They need to do something against Warrior being below the bottom of the barrel.

[Mungrul.9358]

Pssst, it was kinda tongue-in-cheek 😉

Well, kinda.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

TBH the amount of times I encounter other players who can't dodge obvious telegraphs and instead rely on their own bloated profession designs to survive is evidence to me that when warrior gets buffs that other professions will not be able to cope.

They can barely cope now with BSW's sustain when all they need to do is focus it/overwhelm it with condis.

[felix.2386]

On 9/12/2022 at 2:31 PM, Shao.7236 said:

Utility is not that bad, the cooldowns tho. God awful.

you think utility is not that bad, it is because you simply compare one utility to one utility.

 

warrior lack utility so bad it is that, warrior can not afford to slot utility and only have 5 utility slots including heal, while rev has 10.

and you are not looking at warrior weapon's utility.

 

not only warrior has minimum utility slot, also warrior's weapon side of skills has minimum utility for warrior to choose utility for playstyle, instead of locking into shouts, bullcharge and endure pain to even be viable.

 

i'm sure every one would love break enchantment a 25 second CD aoe that rips 4 boon, would be first choice, if warrior does not get destroyed without shout,bullcharge and endure pain.

 

only two way,

one you buff warrior weapon utility so warrior dont rely so much on utility to live, so warrior can actually slot different utility.

or you overload all skill utility like they did to bullcharge to have every utility include sustain.

Edited September 16, 2022 by felix.2386

[oscuro.9720]

11 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

TBH the amount of times I encounter other players who can't dodge obvious telegraphs and instead rely on their own bloated profession designs to survive is evidence to me that when warrior gets buffs that other professions will not be able to cope.

They can barely cope now with BSW's sustain when all they need to do is focus it/overwhelm it with condis.

The one that always got me was people calling Full Counter OP when it was doing 2k damage (when it did 8-10k, it was legitimately OP). You are the one who hit it, don’t whine to me. Just don’t hit it and you’ll never have to deal with its “OP” effect. 

[Shao.7236]

12 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

you think utility is not that bad, it is because you simply compare one utility to one utility.

 

warrior lack utility so bad it is that, warrior can not afford to slot utility and only have 5 utility slots including heal, while rev has 10.

and you are not looking at warrior weapon's utility.

 

not only warrior has minimum utility slot, also warrior's weapon side of skills has minimum utility for warrior to choose utility for playstyle, instead of locking into shouts, bullcharge and endure pain to even be viable.

 

i'm sure every one would love break enchantment a 25 second CD aoe that rips 4 boon, would be first choice, if warrior does not get destroyed without shout,bullcharge and endure pain.

 

only two way,

one you buff warrior weapon utility so warrior dont rely so much on utility to live, so warrior can actually slot different utility.

or you overload all skill utility like they did to bullcharge to have every utility include sustain.

Most passives would make Warriors unkillable back then and those had hardly any higher of a cooldown compared to what their current utility is now.

If Warriors could actually use their utility as often as a ranger can, you'd easily realize why changing anything is a bad idea.

Balanced Stance is not bad, long CD prevents it from being viable, same can be said for berserker Stance and so on with many skills that have huge effects that are only useful in large scale fights, in pvp the winning utilities are always those you can use as often as possible and warrior currently does not have anything but shouts that can do that.

Warrior hardly needs damage, it needs stuff to work around so that it can make the damage work and long cds are not good at that.

I remember very well how good the skills were before 2020 and how greataxe warrior would rock even though spellbreaker was super braindead, because it had utilities to be used in times often rather than just be a sitting target.

Most of the cool synergy to be had with warrior is stopped short by huge cooldowns, you never can get a flow in unlike other specs. Spellbreaker was the only thing that could live so long because its got an utility that helps it manage pressure often, you get none of that on core/zerk.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Shao.7236

[prototypedragon.1406]

I kinda expect the changes to go like this for the 300 second cooldown traits. Everyone but warrior your now down to 40 seconds. Warrior your down to 295 anet winky face.

[felix.2386]

56 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Most passives would make Warriors unkillable back then

 

and that was the only thing warrior was ever meta ever, and also the reason why warrior could only be side noder, because warrior has no utility

 

also you say if warrior can use utility as often as ranger?

endure pain is 40 CD > protect me is 40 CD > signet of stone is 40 CD

frenzy is 40 CD > quickening zephyr is 40 CD

signet of might is 25 CD > signet of hunt is 40 CD

ranger signet has a overall CD of 42.5 second

warrior signet has a overall CD of 36.25 second

ranger heal has an overall cd of 26 seconds

warrior heal is 23.75 seconds

warrior overall utility cooldowns are all lower then ranger.

ranger's both main stability access have longer cooldown then balance stance and dolyak signet

so none of you said really stand.

unless you want to talk about the fact that ranger gs has 2 evade, endurance gen, a block and CC and leap

and smokescale has cc and smoke field etc.

if you want to compare utility alone, warrior utility in fact has overall lower cooldown,

yet ranger is more free with utility thank to how overloaded ranger weapon + pet combo is.

Edited September 16, 2022 by felix.2386

[Nova.4608]

2 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

The one that always got me was people calling Full Counter OP when it was doing 2k damage (when it did 8-10k, it was legitimately OP). You are the one who hit it, don’t whine to me. Just don’t hit it and you’ll never have to deal with its “OP” effect. 

Most people on the forums get stomped by Warriors in their current state then complain about it and get hostile towards anyone listing how many flaws and issues this class has or towards people asking for changes.

It's not surprising. Warriors are a no-kitten class. There's nothing that can objectively feel unfair in it's kit and is as bland as it can get to play against which results in people getting a big ego check once they realize the blame lies entirely on them for getting outplayed instead of having the easy way with complaining about the opponent's class. It's nothing new either, I still remember people complaining they died to GS/Bow builds back in 2012 just like they complain today about things like Bull's Charge.

Unironically, I think this is one of the reasons why Warriors (Outside of Bladesworn for marketing's sake) are in such poor state. It's easier to erase the class that forces people to realize they got outplayed than to have them constantly whine and thrash on the forums.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Nova.4608

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

The one that always got me was people calling Full Counter OP when it was doing 2k damage (when it did 8-10k, it was legitimately OP). You are the one who hit it, don’t whine to me. Just don’t hit it and you’ll never have to deal with its “OP” effect. 

And the same people whined about Backbreaker and Earthshaker doing damage. Like how did they not see the telegraphs...

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

 

and that was the only thing warrior was ever meta ever, and also the reason why warrior could only be side noder, because warrior has no utility

 

also you say if warrior can use utility as often as ranger?

endure pain is 40 CD > protect me is 40 CD > signet of stone is 40 CD

frenzy is 40 CD > quickening zephyr is 40 CD

signet of might is 25 CD > signet of hunt is 40 CD

ranger signet has a overall CD of 42.5 second

warrior signet has a overall CD of 36.25 second

ranger heal has an overall cd of 26 seconds

warrior heal is 23.75 seconds

warrior overall utility cooldowns are all lower then ranger.

ranger's both main stability access have longer cooldown then balance stance and dolyak signet

so none of you said really stand.

unless you want to talk about the fact that ranger gs has 2 evade, endurance gen, a block and CC and leap

and smokescale has cc and smoke field etc.

if you want to compare utility alone, warrior utility in fact has overall lower cooldown,

yet ranger is more free with utility thank to how overloaded ranger weapon + pet combo is.

@Shao.7236, there is a lot of utility, as in function not the right side of the skill bar, built into other spec's weapons that warrior does not have. I once posted a tally of all the means of active defense, including stealth and teleports/shadowsteps, that the professions have access to. The ones with less access than warrior had long duration damage reductions/negations available to them that warrior can't replicate.

More than just CD reduction is needed. The weapon bars need more defenses added to them.

Things like:
Cyclone Axe getting a 1/2s evade
Whirling Axe blocking projectiles
Staggering Blow gaining 1/2s evade
Counterblow and Riposte becoming proper full channel blocks like Ranger's GS4
Brutal Shot dodging before firing rather than after
Savage Leap gaining an 3/4s evade

[Shao.7236]

7 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Shao.7236, there is a lot of utility, as in function not the right side of the skill bar, built into other spec's weapons that warrior does not have. I once posted a tally of all the means of active defense, including stealth and teleports/shadowsteps, that the professions have access to. The ones with less access than warrior had long duration damage reductions/negations available to them that warrior can't replicate.

More than just CD reduction is needed. The weapon bars need more defenses added to them.

Things like:
Cyclone Axe getting a 1/2s evade
Whirling Axe blocking projectiles
Staggering Blow gaining 1/2s evade
Counterblow and Riposte becoming proper full channel blocks like Ranger's GS4
Brutal Shot dodging before firing rather than after
Savage Leap gaining an 3/4s evade

That's because of game design, its assumed that because Warrior has Heavy and Large Health pool it doesn't need it.

Of course evades and whatever passives are stronger in most cases but can we not neglect how Warrior had the ability to ignore damage and that's mostly either gone or not reasonably accesible?

Because that's what it was based around and not in need of evades/much passives.

 

@felix.2386

Side to side for the other cd comparison reply, ranger doesn't have anything that sits at 60 seconds while Warrior has no reliable 30 seconds but has many valid skills that could and so much so 40 seconds. Balanced Stance is one of the strongest skill and yet sees 0 usage because 60 seconds is too much.

The argument still remains.

It's the one spec that needs it the most for having not as many passives that are game changing.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Mikali.9651]

Actually there's a lot of traits that I don't find useful in their current forms, and I would rather see complete rework of them, as well as trait specializations getting their role modernized. 

 

If we look as Strength:

Brave Stride trait - I was thinking about it a lot, and came to conclusion that it should be a trait in Discipline tree. 

I look at Discipline as that one "core spec" that you would use in Open World and PvP/WvW. It would be that spec that one would combine with Power/Condi/Support builds - so, with Strength, Arms, Tactics - even Defense. 

You want stability for all of those playstyles, not only just for Strength. 

Body Blow - it doesn't belong to Strength, and I would change bleeding for Cripple/Vulnerability/Blind

Merciless Hammer - give some new effect on CC, like Stability or Barrier or combine with Sundering Mace

 

if we look at Arms:

Signet Mastery - why is it here? It belongs to Strength

Unsuspecting Foe/Burst Precision/Dual Wielding - they should be reworked, they do not really work with Condi builds, I advocate to remove them completely and change to more fitting Condition playstyle. 
Grand trait could be a different playstyle: consistent stacking dmg (Furious that we have)/burst dmg (example stacks of condi/burning)/burst ability oriented (on burst do X).

 

if we look at Defense:

I actually want Taunt here - it can be on Burst use, on Shield skill use.

The change I would like to see is instead of getting healed with Rousing Resilience, you get Barrier.

I would like to see Barrier here, even so far as having a trait that would work something like: "Grant 50% of Barrier you inflict on yourself to your allies".

I don't know, for some reason I see Warrior as a cool Barrier class, that would grant Barrier with Burst skills, CC skills, Warhorn, etc.

I really want to play Warrior as a tank in Raids 🙂

Cull The Weak - it just doesn't fit for Defense playstyle,  Weakness on CC no matter the health % would be alright.

 

if we look at Tactics:

This would be the ultimate Support spec.

Warrior's Cunning doesn't belong here.

Mending Might should also heal Allies that receive your Might

 

if we look at Discipline:

for how core this trait spec feels, if you ask me, it got lots of bad things.

Crack Shot does not belong here. Put it in Arms

Vengeful Return - I want to see different trait here, there are many things Warrior lacks that could be created instead of this trait, give something new

Axe Mastery - I never liked it here...I would rather have Berserker's Power so it can work both for Power and Condi builds. Axe Mastery should be in Strength instead of it. 

Heightened Focus - is this ever used? Give something completely new

 

if we look at Berserker spec:

Dead or Alive - don't want it, change for something new

I like Berserker spec, and I would like it to be that Power or Condi damage spec, it needs a bit more love, but it is actually playable IMO. Just, remove -300 toughness and give resistance when entering Berserker, also, if we are talking skills, pls Knockdown on Wild Blow with Resistance upon using it, let's smash!! ❤️

 

if we look at Bladesworn spec:

The most boring trait spec that I've ever seen is my reaction to it. I can't say anything useful here because I just don't care about Bladesworn's playstyle

 

if we look at Spellbreaker spec:

Duelist/Tank spec anyone?

Remove boons, inflict slows, gain Barrier instead of healing with Sun and Moon, gain Barrier instead of Protection with Guard Counter...a lot could be done to make this more interesting, and even less selfish with changes to Defense spec. 
I find it interesting that Spellbreaker has Taunt effect with Imminent Threat, but they never really went anywhere with it. Double down on that playstyle I say.

 

Ofc, these are just my observations, I am no where good as many of you are, but I do think that most of things I've pointed out need changes

 

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Mikali.9651