Pure OW PvE idea for legendary armor

[Gehenna.3625]

On 9/13/2022 at 9:08 AM, yoni.7015 said:

The legendary raid armor is the pure PvE armor and now with the emboldened mode it’s even easier to get. I see no reason for another PvE armor. 
Also this has been discussed over and over. 

They should've said Open World PvE instead of Pure. And whereas PvP, WvW and raiding have their own versions of legendary armor, OW PvE does not. 

You may see it as unnecessary from your PoV, however, as someone who plays WvW, I can still see why OW PvE'ers should get their own version.

Why? Because I recognise there are a lot of PvE'ers who don't raid, don't WvW and don't PvP (or not enough to make it viable). To ignore such a large part of the player base seems odd to me. MMOs should recognise both OW PvE'ers and Raiders as separate game modes. In the old days that distinction wasn't really relevant. However, since MMOs have catered more and more to casual players, since that's where they make the most money, it's logical to give OW PvE'ers a separate place from Raiders. 

Now I will say that before the legendary armory came about, I was on your side of the argument. But since then the QoL has extended a lot and I don't see why those players shouldn't have their own set.

What the OP suggests, though is too easy, but he's thinking in the right direction; as in part of it should be time gated. For starters, there should be a Gift of Exploration for each piece in the cost. That should make it harder for sure, but more importantly a lot more undesirable for people who play the other modes. But I do think it would have to be along those lines more than just killing World Bosses.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Gehenna.3625

[The Boz.2038]

13 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

And whereas PvP, WvW and raiding have their own versions of legendary armor, OW PvE does not. 

Things that do not have legendary armor:

• Dungeons
• Fractals
• Minidungeons
• Jumping puzzles
• Metas
• Mad King's Labyrinth
• World bosses
• Fishing
• Gambling
• Card swiping
• Giant slaying
• Queen's Gauntlet
• Dragon Response Missions
• Strikes
• Beetle racing
• Griffon flying
• Super Adventure Box
• Trash collecting
• (not an exhaustive list)

Things that have legendary armor:

• PvE
• PvP
• WvW

[kharmin.7683]

38 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Why? Because I recognise there are a lot of PvE'ers who don't raid, don't WvW and don't PvP (or not enough to make it viable). To ignore such a large part of the player base seems odd to me.

While I agree that this it is odd, I believe that Anet has some internal directive to get as many players as possible into the other formats.  Maybe it's part of their original concept of GW2?  There has to be some reason that they continue to make these kinds of decisions.

[Zero.1028]

The only way I would accept legendary armor for open world is this:

1) Full map completion of all the zones for EACH piece of armor. We have 4 map completion gifts now, Gift of Exploration, Gift of Maguuma, Gift of the Desert, and Gift of Dragon Mastery. That's 3 characters for Tyria and 6 characters for the rest

2) Since it's open world then have a collection for each of the zones for both killing bosses, end game metas, mount challenges as well as jumping puzzles. 

3) Strikes drop a different LI to include it in the grind for open world legendary armor.

With how easy open world content is it should be heavily gated to this point, and if you don't want to go through the slog of such an easy set to get then there are the other 3 options.

How can you have a "True" Legendary set of armor if it's just kill bosses until you have enough items? No No No you need to do map completion as well as collections that truly reflect on the open world experience. Open World Legendary Armor needs to embrace the meaning of open world and force the player to actually do everything in the world before it's obtained anything less would just be cheap.

 

[Gehenna.3625]

3 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

While I agree that this it is odd, I believe that Anet has some internal directive to get as many players as possible into the other formats.  Maybe it's part of their original concept of GW2?  There has to be some reason that they continue to make these kinds of decisions.

Could be but that's what the Legendary Weapons are for I would think. I think they should stay the way they are. I mean, I don't have a stake in this myself, I do WvW for that. I just don't get why some people are so against the idea even and aren't open to the idea that OW PvE players (which is a rough definition but I don't have another name for it) far exceeds the group of raiders.

And like I said before the legendary armory I would've agreed that they wouldn't need access to such an armor set from their usual content. However, that legendary armory made the QoL of legendary items so much bigger and that's the only reason why I think that Anet should probably think of doing it. 

Again, it doesn't change anything for me personally, but I just think that the group of casual players that spend most of their time in OW activities probably deserve the added QoL, if they do the effort for it, of course. But it requires a lot of time in the other play modes to get it. I mean people moan about having to get one GoB for a legendary weapon. I think that's whining. But having to play months primarily in another mode that you really don't like is a bit too much I feel. For me it takes up a lot of my play time to play WvW as much as I do (to get the weekly cap of claim tickets). So I get that part of it.

But I do understand that Anet makes decisions based on things that I do not know. I just feel that players could be more considerate to other player groups sometimes I guess.

[Gehenna.3625]

12 minutes ago, Zero.1028 said:

The only way I would accept legendary armor for open world is this:

1) Full map completion of all the zones for EACH piece of armor. We have 4 map completion gifts now, Gift of Exploration, Gift of Maguuma, Gift of the Desert, and Gift of Dragon Mastery. That's 3 characters for Tyria and 6 characters for the rest

2) Since it's open world then have a collection for each of the zones for both killing bosses, end game metas, mount challenges as well as jumping puzzles. 

3) Strikes drop a different LI to include it in the grind for open world legendary armor.

I think 3 is a bit much but 1 and 2 I can agree with. Strikes are closer to raids than to OW content. Dungeons could be included for sure in OW content (even though it's technically a group instance).

12 minutes ago, Zero.1028 said:

With how easy open world content is it should be heavily gated to this point, and if you don't want to go through the slog of such an easy set to get then there are the other 3 options.

WvW legendary armor is totally easy, it just takes more time. Point 1 or 2 already make it more work than WvW armor. So the fact that most open world content is easy, is not a valid point.

12 minutes ago, Zero.1028 said:

How can you have a "True" Legendary set of armor if it's just kill bosses until you have enough items? No No No you need to do map completion as well as collections that truly reflect on the open world experience. Open World Legendary Armor needs to embrace the meaning of open world and force the player to actually do everything in the world before it's obtained anything less would just be cheap.

I would change the word force to require, but I do agree with you in essence. Again though, WvW is totally easy...easier than a lot of OW content if you think about it. So again, that's not a valid argument. You can cap a camp and wait 15 minutes and cap another camp (tagging along with other players) and get pips just the same. Do that for a 2-3 hours a day and you'll get there. Or you can go around killing one guard at a time etc. I mean that's totally easy, is it not?

Edited September 14, 2022 by Gehenna.3625

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

35 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

While I agree that this it is odd, I believe that Anet has some internal directive to get as many players as possible into the other formats.  Maybe it's part of their original concept of GW2?  There has to be some reason that they continue to make these kinds of decisions.

If this is true (which is plausible), I really wish they'd do it by incentivising other content, rather than restricting the main mode.  Add a different legendary armour skin to the WvW/PvP modes, add a set of unique legendary weapons to those modes as well (they already have unique sets, just make them flashier and give them legendary stats/recipes).

 

Locking such a massive QoL/long term goal behind content that a huge amount (most?) players don't want to play really doesn't make sense in terms of maintaining the player base (at least intuitively, there may be data that disagrees).

[The Boz.2038]

14 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

incentivising other content, rather than restricting the main mode

I can't wait for you to mentally gymnast your way around how legendary armor isn't an incentive for raids, but a restriction of non-raids.

[Certero.2594]

Personally I think getting people that just play open world to join other game modes through reward incentive is exactly what the company should be doing, legendary armor and the legendary backpacks being a great example of this. 

However, I'm also aware some stats are really hard to get (ritualist) and might make people less likely to attempt other more challenging content that requires said armor.

 

So I'm not completely against an open world legendary armor

This is what I would do for the crafting Recipe:

 

Gift of Prosperity

Same as raid armor

 

Gift of Perseverance

   -Gift of Tyria

         -Gift of Eploration

         -Gift of Maguuma

         -Gift of the Desert

         -Gift of Cantha

   -Eldritch Scroll

   -50 Obsidian Shards

   -Cube of Stabilized Dark Energy

  

Gift of Challenge

50 shards of tyria

50 shards of maguuma

50 shards of the desert

50 shards of cantha

 

Here's where you get your autoattacking 11111 at bosses and metas, 1 per meta per day per account

You only get shards of Tyria from mayor world bosses, Hard World Bosses on the wiki (tequalt, karka and triple trouble + the risen high wizard form gates of arah to complete the 4 daily all others have)

 

Precursor Armor

A new item gets added to the map completion loot table, if the current is (I'm not saying these are the numbers, is just an example):

-80% change transmutation charge and 20% black lion key

It gets changed to

-60% transmutation charge 20% black lion key 20% Shard of the world

 

You can craft a new precursor armor piece like a raid armor, but change raid insignia for for World's Insignia, you require 20% shards to purchase one

Shards of the world are locked for level 80 characters, so you cannot get them on fresh characters.

 

 

 

 

You could go further by making the exploring gifts into their refine gifts, such as gift of mastery or gift of desert mastery, but I think that would be overkill.

And the good thing is, this armor has even less timegate than raid armor, a total of you can get a new piece in a week and a half as the only timegate is the meta rewards, and you can afk those. You'd need to do map completion a lot of times to get a full set, but I think that's justified, and would get Anet to sell more character slots and expansions

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, Certero.2594 said:

However, I'm also aware some stats are really hard to get (ritualist) and might make people less likely to attempt other more challenging content that requires said armor.

 

So I'm not completely against an open world legendary armor

This sounds like a "I have a splinter; better amputate" type of handling the problem...

[Zero.1028]

34 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

I think 3 is a bit much but 1 and 2 I can agree with. Strikes are closer to raids than to OW content. Dungeons could be included for sure in OW content (even though it's technically a group instance).

WvW legendary armor is totally easy, it just takes more time. Point 1 or 2 already make it more work than WvW armor. So the fact that most open world content is easy, is not a valid point.

I would change the word force to require, but I do agree with you in essence. Again though, WvW is totally easy...easier than a lot of OW content if you think about it. So again, that's not a valid argument. You can cap a camp and wait 15 minutes and cap another camp (tagging along with other players) and get pips just the same. Do that for a 2-3 hours a day and you'll get there. Or you can go around killing one guard at a time etc. I mean that's totally easy, is it not?

I would agree with including dungeon currency as a way to get another form of LI, I only mentioned strikes cuz I forgot dungeons exist

The whole purpose of WvW Legendaries was to give the people who only did WvW a way to obtain Legendaries that's why there's a long time gate.

I see flipping camps as the trade off for enjoying and learning the content, either have fun and roam or zerg or just do the bare minimum and flip camps. I would not be able to flip camps every week just to finish all the chests, however if I'm actively roaming and zerging I barely notice when I'm almost done because I'm having so much fun. 

I think people are always going to find ways to do the bare minimum in content, the only content that forces you to do something about it is Raids since most people run dps meters and can tell when someone isn't puling their weight. The way I see it is open world makes players engage in content and eventually will reward them with legendary armor whereas if you don't want to do pve content all day you can mix in some WvW and just casually work towards a separate piece to lessen the load. 

 

 

 

[Certero.2594]

2 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

This sounds like a "I have a splinter; better amputate" type of handling the problem...

I completely agree, but other than "I want to acquire easy and smooth access the gear to get into instance content and access to more instance oriented builds" I can't think of a reason that legendary armor would be that necessary for open world players.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

Just now, Certero.2594 said:

I completely agree, but other than "I want to acquire easy and smooth access the gear to get into instance content and access to more instance oriented builds" I can't think of a reason that legendary armor would be that necessary for open world players.

Necessary is strong.  But here are a few appeals:

 

1) It acts as a long term goal for players (basically essential in an MMO, and a lot of vets will have completed the lower hanging fruit)

2) A lot of players have alts, and the armoury is hugely helpful here

3) It allows for more build experimentation (which is also appealing to Open World players, especially as there are now nine classes, with three elite specs each)

[Vilin.8056]

3 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

I know exactly the definition. You are trying to jam a very broad definition into something that's not.Please explain how an intentional design is a bug or a flaw? The only flaw is the unintended consequence. It is not a flaw in design because the rewards were distributed as intended. But rather a flaw in concept.

The only advantage here is the player can watch Netflix. There is zero other advantages that will skew the game in any way. The player still has to be online the same amount of time regardless of whether that person is active or not. The player do not gain any loots while inactive other than what will be given. And how does it disadvantage you?

I don't see what's the point debating the obvious just for the purpose of debating. You clearly missed the point on the definition of Exploit in the previous 2 threads and is now changing the subject. 

As an intended design, the term "WvW Skirmish Claim Tickets" makes the message clear enough to everyone.

You can kept justifying that AFK farming is as developer intended, and see if developers will spend further resources to contribute that aspect to other game modes.

[yoni.7015]

5 minutes ago, Certero.2594 said:

I can't think of a reason that legendary armor would be that necessary for open world players.

Because there is no reason. Legendary armor is not necessary for open world. I doubt that open world only players would start experimenting with builds and gear. 
And every player who wants to have it as a long term goal can already choose between three methods to get it. 

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

4 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

Because there is no reason. Legendary armor is not necessary for open world. I doubt that open world only players would start experimenting with builds and gear. 
And every player who wants to have it as a long term goal can already choose between three methods to get it. 

You're just flat wrong about Open World players not experimenting with gear.  As for long term goals, the point that keeps being hammered to you is that a long term goal should be fun (otherwise WvW camp flipping is right there as an option).

 

I don't understand why you're in this thread.  You obviously aren't invested in Open World, and you obviously aren't actually reading the responses being given to you.  So what is the point?

Edited September 14, 2022 by CrashTestAuto.9108

[Vilin.8056]

3 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Necessary is strong.  But here are a few appeals:

 

1) It acts as a long term goal for players (basically essential in an MMO, and a lot of vets will have completed the lower hanging fruit)

2) A lot of players have alts, and the armoury is hugely helpful here

3) It allows for more build experimentation (which is also appealing to Open World players, especially as there are now nine classes, with three elite specs each)

None of these 3 points appeals the majority of casual players, who only play one build, does not posses more than 5 alts, hates gear grinding, and mostly log in for new stories and exploration.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

Just now, Vilin.8056 said:

None of these 3 points appeals the majority of casual players, who only play one build, does not posses more than 5 alts, hates gear grinding, and mostly log in for new stories and exploration.

So the players who aren't affected by legendary armour anyway?  Cool, glad we could clear that up.

[Certero.2594]

3 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

1) It acts as a long term goal for players (basically essential in an MMO, and a lot of vets will have completed the lower hanging fruit)

I mean, getting into raids is a long term goal, and it allows people to get into content that have not completed yet, which is sort of what you want to do as a developer in the first place, you don't want your content to rot and nobody to play it. Rewards and long term goals in said content are a great way to incentivize players to play content.

Is sort of what was criticized about the new strikes, no long term goals.

Again, other than to get people to have easier access to other game modes, I don't see this as a good investment from the developer's perspective (which is why I made all expansions a requirement and multiple world completions per piece, to sell more expansions and character slots)

 

3 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

2) A lot of players have alts, and the armoury is hugely helpful here

Yeah, but you can still get the regular gear in the trading post, or craft it. I don't really see this as a deal breaker.

 

 

3 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

3) It allows for more build experimentation (which is also appealing to Open World players, especially as there are now nine classes, with three elite specs each)

Thing about open world is, you don't really need min-max ascended stats, running a few orange pieces is not the end of the world, heck, even raids can be done in orange gear, and many exotics are cheap.

But still, easy access to cumbersome stats is still an issue when open world players want to get into instance content (I believe we don't have a ritualist ascended backpiece yet)

 

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

17 minutes ago, Certero.2594 said:

I mean, getting into raids is a long term goal, and it allows people to get into content that have not completed yet, which is sort of what you want to do as a developer in the first place, you don't want your content to rot and nobody to play it. Rewards and long term goals in said content are a great way to incentivize players to play content.

Is sort of what was criticized about the new strikes, no long term goals.

Again, other than to get people to have easier access to other game modes, I don't see this as a good investment from the developer's perspective (which is why I made all expansions a requirement and multiple world completions per piece, to sell more expansions and character slots)

 

Yeah, but you can still get the regular gear in the trading post, or craft it. I don't really see this as a deal breaker.

 

 

Thing about open world is, you don't really need min-max ascended stats, running a few orange pieces is not the end of the world, heck, even raids can be done in orange gear, and many exotics are cheap.

But still, easy access to cumbersome stats is still an issue when open world players want to get into instance content (I believe we don't have a ritualist ascended backpiece yet)

 

Raids is a long term goal for some people (and that's great).  For people that don't want to raid, not so much.

 

On the other points.  Your arguments basically undermine the existence of legendary armour across the board.  You can get exotics and ascended elsewhere, so why do WvWers/PvPers/Raiders need legendary?  Obviously people find Legendary Armour incentivising for some reason, so the argument they don't need it (which is true, for everyone) doesn't really hold up.

[Woof.8246]

38 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Necessary is strong.  But here are a few appeals:

 

1) It acts as a long term goal for players (basically essential in an MMO, and a lot of vets will have completed the lower hanging fruit)

This is true , that why the Devs offered in  CM Strikes , unique new rewards (flower aura effect , New weapon skins) , rather than telling the instance population that they can get the Raid Set more easily and call it  a day .

 

I say let's hear "Boz" idea and implant various set for different parts of the game , like dungeons .

Hopefully the population will play them more

Edited September 14, 2022 by Woof.8246

[Gibson.4036]

Ima take my PVT bearbow into raids now that I know you can use the same builds and gear! So geeked.

Also, I use my PVE Holo build and gear in WvW because it makes it super easy to flip camps. So I guess WvW=PvE. Something I’ve seen PvPers claim since launch, so no surprise there.

😄

Edited September 14, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[god fragment.5716]

If they did make an open world legendary armour, I can see them making something like an item that you have to charge at every "place of power" in open world. That's about a hundred locations. Basically you would have to redo a lot of the acheavements in the general tab. This would be the level of effort required to get an open world legendary armour. 

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

5 minutes ago, civokenes.3284 said:

If they did make an open world legendary armour, I can see them making something like an item that you have to charge at every "place of power" in open world. That's about a hundred locations. Basically you would have to redo a lot of the acheavements in the general tab. This would be the level of effort required to get an open world legendary armour. 

It'd be awesome if they do new tabs, rather than make people redo old ones.  The Return To achievements, even though they went over old content, were such a brilliant approach.  The skyscale and griffon were also fun (skyscale got boring in its design, admittedly, as it kept sending you around the same map).

[Forum Moderator.3419]

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