Are Druids really going to replace Scrappers after balance?

[PrinceValentine.9320]

What do you guys think? What are the cons and pros of this change to the community? 

[Aeolus.3615]

scrapper wvw will just have to easilly adapt to place wells in critical spots rahter than spam their skills and effects keep folowing will kinda be a l2p adaptation thing, will be interesting to see what happens since most dont have preception where to use wells cause they kept folowing the scrapper.

Besides that scrapper funcions will keep the same if groups have issues they will increase the number of scrappers.

I think there will be 2 types of druids which will be very interesting coward stats aka  minstrells and some will use celestials so they can keep some range pressure if needed like bow/staff.

It will be more interesting cause Anet is even adding a new spec to the game called Warrior and removing that shout monk wanabe, so it will be intereing the % of players testing the changes and how that % of classes will affect groups.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[subversiontwo.7501]

Replace them how and where? You need to keep in mind that, let's say, a pickup meta is shaped and dictated by players. There's a difference between what you can do and what people end up doing. When Anet changes things like these players may respond by adapting to the changes. They may also not respond at all and simply overlook changes that could be made. Additionally, they may also negatively respond to changes and simply care less, resulting in things like metas changing in theory but not in practise as websites are not updated and commanders don't command. There are too many such things muddling the water.

Spoiler

Go back far enough in time and almost every guild and thus every public commander had their own "meta" or there were no squads so you would shape the composition of your party by yourself more often than not. There was still a "meta" but not in the sense people seem to look at it from the outside-in today with fewer people leading the same squads and using the same websites for reference.

If instead, you look at the changes and the balances within the environment, then the patch is mostly a shift from readily available  counter-CC balanced out by clunkier options resulting in, albeit a small, shift in favour of CC in the total balance.

At the end of the day, a party has 5 spots and there are 9 classes. Any meta will involve a meta party with meta classes, a number of off-meta classes for a meta party and then entire off-meta parties. Most players not involved with shaping metas will, same as here, mainly look at what 5 builds become the most popular within the most popular party, but there are a bunch of equally useful ways to play and in most cases the devs don't balance for such a party (or when they do, they make a mistake that cheapens the understanding of their own mode). Whatever becomes meta, starts off as off-meta.

That's also how things seemingly unrelated, like the Alliance betas having no distinct apparent progress, also influence things like meta - because they make players care more or less about playing and doing things that end up shaping a meta.

So, when it comes to something like the Druid, I'm mostly just happy with the fact that they are finally addressing some of its clunky mechanics to make it more enjoyable and functional to play. How it compares to the Scrapper, in just one specific role, isn't really important. What the devs have done is taken down the Scrapper a notch or two to make possible space or room for players to fill that gap in different ways. However, no one here really has any influence over whether that will happen or not. It is also debatable whether that is a good thing or not and in most cases the game would probably benefit more from additional (off-meta) roles being developed and encouraged: Things a Druid could have or even these changes could possibly be more apt at highlighting.

Conversely, when it comes to the Scrapper, the question is rather whether the changes relate to the way we play rather than if they are powerful or not. Does something change that stops a Scrapper from maintaining a 2nd support role? Does something change to also change the role itself? If not, does it really matter whether Scrapper, Tempest, possibly another FB, a Druid or something else is there most popular option for that role? That stuff becomes extra important when they balance through mechanics and not just figures. Changes that make things good to use are generally good while changes that make things needlessly clunky are generally bad for the game regardless of how it affects class-balance or popularity.

Edited September 18, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Custodio.6134]

the changes to scrapper in particular won´t make it necessarily worse than it currently is. 
It´s rather a change of how to use its skills, because effect-wise, nothing will fundamentally change. 

The big difference will be the impact that player-skill/expierience on the class (and fighting in general) will have. The skill floor (the amount of skill/expierience to play the class effectively) will increase, so this change mostly affects inexpierienced players, and players that have difficulties to adapt their playstyle. The more expierienced ("skilled") players won´t feel the impact as much, as long as they are able to adapt their playstyle (from mobile gyros to stationary gyros mostly). 

Back to the original topic: 

i don´t see any reasoning to replace scrapper with anything, really (especially talking about druid, but this goes for tempest as well). 

It seems, like most people reduce scrapper down to its healing- and cleansing-capabilities. While this is one big part that makes scrapper so strong and dominant in the (zerg)-meta, it´s not everything. If scrapper had only its current healing and cleansing, and nothing else, they would most likely be on-par with heal-tempest/druid, if not worse. 
The deciding factor is the other utility scrapper brings along, which tempest, druid, or whatever cannot provide. Those factors are mostly (alongside said healing and cleansing):

condition conversion (Purity of Purpose, even after the prior nerfs)
Mass Stealth (Sneak-Gyro and smoke-blasts)
Damage mitigation (Bulwark-gyro)
Initial stability (Defense Field)
Superspeed (Gyroscopic acceleration)
ranged CC (Thunderclap)

as long as the other supports are not able to cover everything in the same way as scrapper does, i see little opportunity for competition over the spot heal-scrapper currently has in teamcomps. And don´t get me wrong: i would LOVE to see more professions being able to compete with scrapper (prior to the "powerful auras"-nerf i loved to play heal-tempest from time to time, but that nerf made it impossible to compete over a scrapper-spot in a squad)

[subversiontwo.7501]

45 minutes ago, Custodio.6134 said:

condition conversion (Purity of Purpose, even after the prior nerfs)
Mass Stealth (Sneak-Gyro and smoke-blasts)
Damage mitigation (Bulwark-gyro)
Initial stability (Defense Field)
Superspeed (Gyroscopic acceleration)
ranged CC (Thunderclap)

as long as the other supports are not able to cover everything in the same way as scrapper does, i see little opportunity for competition over the spot heal-scrapper currently has in teamcomps. And don´t get me wrong: i would LOVE to see more professions being able to compete with scrapper (prior to the "powerful auras"-nerf i loved to play heal-tempest from time to time, but that nerf made it impossible to compete over a scrapper-spot in a squad)

Personally, I see that the other way around. Beyond the basics, every class has something it brings to the table and that fits into the desired role more or less. The Scrapper has been popular because some of the things in your list are popular.

However, I see them as overvalued rather than undervalued. In the swath of things from poor, to average to good groups many of those things only matter if you can spread and synch them which few groups can do well enough. Once you have a group that can do it you will in most cases also have players who know how to counterplay it.

For example, many groups strive to achieve full stealth gyro coverage but once they are organised enough to achieve it they will also have players who are capable of revealing, which mostly is treated as a lost art. So much of these things valued in the meta, are mostly valued by those who struggle to achieve them but do not yet understand their limitations, full use or counterplay.

Spoiler

You see that with guild groups too: Many very average groups who strive to stealth in plain sight some 1500r away and mostly rely on facing weaker competition. There are those who actually ambush with some surprise but then it is very often as some oversized havoc or third-one in who only pushes the back of some already engaged group: Hardly something impressive compared to achieving a surprise on your own.

In the vast majority of groups that I see most seem to be happy enough with just getting another 2nd support that they are low on or when we face the run-of-the-mill stack-and-push stealthers I can in many cases single-handedly shut that aspect of their gameplay down (and far too often that makes them simply give up, because that is all they have). Anyway, that was mostly my point, that these things are overvalued, if anything, and that is because of how they are seen by people who strive to achieve them rather than those who are used to them: vesting more value in things like group stealths than they actually have (between the number of groups who outright fail to stealth and come running at you with one third of their group revealed or those who execute it so obviously that you can counter-play them with a single player for the same result). A whole bunch of those groups would benefit more from having eg., auras 😇.

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[posthumecaver.6473]

I don't think so,  big thing with healing with Scrapper / Tempest healing is not directional, they can used  while being mobile, Druid has to deliver it heals as ground aimed AOEs, which would be tedious as new ground aimed Gyros ground aimed skills are a pain with skill lag.

 

If you can't drop your skill as druid, your party will die, Scrapper will still do 1-1-1-1 as tempest.....

Edited September 18, 2022 by posthumecaver.6473

[Jski.6180]

Scraper still going to be the end all be all meta as well as FB they will simply have to play a bit more skill minded like ele having to use ground target skills to support for the full life span of the game (or go super high risk with channel support hehe).

I would like to see what druid can pull off after the update but in no way is it giving the same level of super speed or even an easy stealth. Even eng kits will still out preform the full class of druid (as they do with tempest.)

[UNOwen.7132]

Druid? No. Tempest? Yes. Scrapper will be dropped completely and replaced entirely by Tempest. Your condi cleanse is now so much worse that the superspeed just doesnt make up for it, and sneak gyro is unusable now so meh.

[Twilightzone.7452]

My guild already been using druid for months so this is just gravy and using other classes, ventari for heals. Been working out on days when we lack scrappers

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Druid? No. Tempest? Yes. Scrapper will be dropped completely and replaced entirely by Tempest. Your condi cleanse is now so much worse that the superspeed just doesnt make up for it, and sneak gyro is unusable now so meh.

The sneak gyro dose not work like shadow refuges like ppl keep thinking you do not get reviled the sec your out of it making the sneak gyro very much still usable and THE best stealth support in wvw. In no way will you want a tempest over a scraper but you would like an tempest to work with an scraper kind of like it is now but the tempest lacks effects like stealth and scraper makes up for that.

Widely overblown views on balancing on scraper and the free raid they been getting up to this point.

[UNOwen.7132]

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

The sneak gyro dose not work like shadow refuges like ppl keep thinking you do not get reviled the sec your out of it making the sneak gyro very much still usable and THE best stealth support in wvw. In no way will you want a tempest over a scraper but you would like an tempest to work with an scraper kind of like it is now but the tempest lacks effects like stealth and scraper makes up for that.

Widely overblown views on balancing on scraper and the free raid they been getting up to this point.

If youre not staying inside the sneak gyro, youll barely get any stealth. At that point Blinding Powder is already better. Or hell, literally just any smoke field + blast finisher. Its so bad its outclassed by a combo field mechanic, lmao. Also, Veil. No, Sneak Gyro will not be useable whatsoever. It will be one of the absolute worst elites in the game by a very wide margin.

 

Of course you will take a Tempest over a scrapper. Scrapper no longer provides usable stealth, all it has is superspeed, at the cost of having bad condi cleanse. Condi cleanse is key to why you picked Scrapper. Now itll be key to picking Tempest. 

[Jski.6180]

1 minute ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

If youre not staying inside the sneak gyro, youll barely get any stealth. At that point Blinding Powder is already better. Or hell, literally just any smoke field + blast finisher. Its so bad its outclassed by a combo field mechanic, lmao. Also, Veil. No, Sneak Gyro will not be useable whatsoever. It will be one of the absolute worst elites in the game by a very wide margin.

 

Of course you will take a Tempest over a scrapper. Scrapper no longer provides usable stealth, all it has is superspeed, at the cost of having bad condi cleanse. Condi cleanse is key to why you picked Scrapper. Now itll be key to picking Tempest. 

You blast the gyro that why its an smoke field. No one is ruining support thf in wvw big groups i asked ppl to do it they will not sadly. At that point in your logic your better off using bomb kit smoke before a thf hehe. In no way is the bomb kit better (due to its low duration) then stealth gyro.

Scraper has stronger burst clears from its kits and stronger out put of healing. It also has real stab support and now its "on bomb" can be done far better at a ranged with the new blast gryo. Most of the scraper clears and heals are form eng kits not the gyros. Tempests clears and heals are often on longer cast times and only traited at the cost of other good effects like alacrity.

Super speed is still there and it still very important to the fight it is on the level of an strong boon and after this update scraper will be better at giving it out as an support class vs what we have now as more of accidental super speed due to bad timing of its last tick of the current gyros.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

11 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

If youre not staying inside the sneak gyro, youll barely get any stealth. At that point Blinding Powder is already better. Or hell, literally just any smoke field + blast finisher. Its so bad its outclassed by a combo field mechanic, lmao. Also, Veil. No, Sneak Gyro will not be useable whatsoever. It will be one of the absolute worst elites in the game by a very wide margin.

 

Of course you will take a Tempest over a scrapper. Scrapper no longer provides usable stealth, all it has is superspeed, at the cost of having bad condi cleanse. Condi cleanse is key to why you picked Scrapper. Now itll be key to picking Tempest. 

How is "literally any smoke field" better than Sneak Gyro when all other smoke fields also...don't move? And also don't passively pulse stealth? It doesn't move with you now, so it is "totally useless"....right. Your whining is so hyperbolic it almost feels like you're trolling. 

[Xenesis.6389]

Even if this changes the meta, that's still a good thing, something to play around and build some new metas than the stale 3 year old meta.

[Jski.6180]

3 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Even if this changes the meta, that's still a good thing, something to play around and build some new metas than the stale 3 year old meta.

I think the meta will ever truly change till they give good stab support to more classes as well as good boon strip to more classes as well. They are giving druid some stab support but we are not sure how much and sadly they are removing boon strips from classes (the real issues of the update that seems lost on ppl).

 

[UNOwen.7132]

14 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

How is "literally any smoke field" better than Sneak Gyro when all other smoke fields also...don't move? And also don't passively pulse stealth? It doesn't move with you now, so it is "totally useless"....right. Your whining is so hyperbolic it almost feels like you're trolling. 

Duration. A blast finisher in a smoke field gives 3 seconds of stealth to everyone. Drop a smoke field, do 2 quick blast finishers, and you can move on with 6 seconds of stealth after 1 second. For Sneak Gyro, after 1 second you will run out with at most 2 seconds of stealth. You see the issue now, yes? 

[UNOwen.7132]

13 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Even if this changes the meta, that's still a good thing, something to play around and build some new metas than the stale 3 year old meta.

Oh boy, youre gonna be very disappointed when you realise that replacing scrapper with Tempest makes the meta no less stale.

[UNOwen.7132]

24 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

You blast the gyro that why its an smoke field. No one is ruining support thf in wvw big groups i asked ppl to do it they will not sadly. At that point in your logic your better off using bomb kit smoke before a thf hehe. In no way is the bomb kit better (due to its low duration) then stealth gyro.

Well yeah. Because Shadow Refuge sucks. But so does Sneak Gyro. Just use a smoke field and blast it. Its way better.

 

24 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Scraper has stronger burst clears from its kits and stronger out put of healing. It also has real stab support and now its "on bomb" can be done far better at a ranged with the new blast gryo. Most of the scraper clears and heals are form eng kits not the gyros. Tempests clears and heals are often on longer cast times and only traited at the cost of other good effects like alacrity.

No it doesnt. Scrapper is poor when it comes to burst clears, its much better at sustained clears. Tempest has the stronger burst clears, and now also sustained clears. Same with healing, Tempest will outvalue Scrapper there too. The stab is not really that relevant given Firebrand exists. And ... did you just even remotely imply the new Blast Gyro is anything but the worst skill in the game by a very very wide margin? It has a 3 second delay. And doesnt move. And can be seen. No one is ever gonna be hit by it. 

 

24 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Super speed is still there and it still very important to the fight it is on the level of an strong boon and after this update scraper will be better at giving it out as an support class vs what we have now as more of accidental super speed due to bad timing of its last tick of the current gyros.

Except now you either pick super speed, or the effect of the gyro. Super speed alone doesnt make the class viable, but the gyros also arent good enough without the superspeed. Leaving you not worth it either way.

[Jski.6180]

1 minute ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Well yeah. Because Shadow Refuge sucks. But so does Sneak Gyro. Just use a smoke field and blast it. Its way better.

 

No it doesnt. Scrapper is poor when it comes to burst clears, its much better at sustained clears. Tempest has the stronger burst clears, and now also sustained clears. Same with healing, Tempest will outvalue Scrapper there too. The stab is not really that relevant given Firebrand exists. And ... did you just even remotely imply the new Blast Gyro is anything but the worst skill in the game by a very very wide margin? It has a 3 second delay. And doesnt move. And can be seen. No one is ever gonna be hit by it. 

 

Except now you either pick super speed, or the effect of the gyro. Super speed alone doesnt make the class viable, but the gyros also arent good enough without the superspeed. Leaving you not worth it either way.

Shadow refuge sucks because its a dark field and it apply revlie if you step out of it. You can torll your own team with it when they are trying to stealth. Steal gyro is an smoke field and dose not apply reivels.

Scraper already was not an sustained clear class scraper is an burst clear class though fumagate and chaining boon clears. As well as having light fields to combo in. Tempest is sustained clear but its only going to do just that it give up every thing even self def to keep up with that clearing over time. Tempest should over clear an scraper because the tempest must put it self at higher risk to clear and the longer the fight the more sustained clear wins out. Its not like scraper gyros where channled skills locking you out of skills and dodge rolls (if you want to get the full effect).

Every bit of stab is important sadly the on swap earth stab for ele is worthless lol.

The new blast gyro combo with thunderclap will be very powerful for bombs. In no way should you be throwing any hard cc or even soft cc solo vs a group or your simply wasting it. Image having +1 hard cc per pt with no less stab support from the FB.

Super speed counter all but hard cc and roots it even counters "getting ppl in combat." Try fighting a group with super speed when  you dont its a nightmare.

Its a "come on" moment where other classes had to use there pAoE skills and if they where bad at using them they where not of real use. The moment your asking other classes who "had it easy game play" to play with some level of skills like every thing else in the game the world is ending. I am not going to say "get good" but realize this is normal for what you should be able to do as an support player.

[UNOwen.7132]

6 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Shadow refuge sucks because its a dark field and it apply revlie if you step out of it. You can torll your own team with it when they are trying to stealth. Steal gyro is an smoke field and dose not apply reivels.

Shadow Refuge sucks because you have to sit in it to get good stealth. Sneak Gyro has the same issue. Its not about the field.

6 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Scraper already was not an sustained clear class scraper is an burst clear class though fumagate and chaining boon clears. As well as having light fields to combo in. Tempest is sustained clear but its only going to do just that it give up every thing even self def to keep up with that clearing over time. Tempest should over clear an scraper because the tempest must put it self at higher risk to clear and the longer the fight the more sustained clear wins out. Its not like scraper gyros where channled skills locking you out of skills and dodge rolls (if you want to get the full effect).

Scrapper was about sustained clear through purge gyro and a bunch of other pulsing effects. Fumigate is also not exactly what I'd call burst cleanse, but it is very good. Tempest can actually burst clear better through applying and transmuting Auras. And nah, you dont really give up much for it.

6 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Every bit of stab is important sadly the on swap earth stab for ele is worthless lol.

The new blast gyro combo with thunderclap will be very powerful for bombs. In no way should you be throwing any hard cc or even soft cc solo vs a group or your simply wasting it. Image having +1 hard cc per pt with no less stab support from the FB.

The new blast gyro will be unusable. I dont think you understand how long 3 seconds is. You thunderclap them, stun for 1 second, then blast gyro. They move out in the 2 seconds theyre not stunned. Wow, how strong. And thats if they dont have stability. As for the stability, its on the same button as your projectile hate, so its not like you will always have it.

6 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Super speed counter all but hard cc and roots it even counters "getting ppl in combat." Try fighting a group with super speed when  you dont its a nightmare.

Sure its strong. Are you willing to give up everything for it though? Especially with how short the duration is now?

6 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Its a "come on" moment where other classes had to use there pAoE skills and if they where bad at using them they where not of real use. The moment your asking other classes who "had it easy game play" to play with some level of skills like every thing else in the game the world is ending. I am not going to say "get good" but realize this is normal for what you should be able to do as an support player.

Except other classes dont have to use them. The other supports dont use wells like that, except exactly Chronomancer on exactly one skill. They use self-centered effects that either pulse, or dont pulse. Like this is something only Scrappers would have to rely on. And much like Druid before them, it makes them unusable. Im sorry, but if you dont realise that this absolutely is normal, then you need to "get good".

[Grand Marshal.4098]

I agree. Tempest will be the main cleanser now. DPS Scrapper may be a bit better tho given the range. 

[Xenesis.6389]

1 hour ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Oh boy, youre gonna be very disappointed when you realise that replacing scrapper with Tempest makes the meta no less stale.

I won't be disappointed because I'm not on that side of the fence, I play the boon strip classes, mesmer, necro, use to spellbreaker. I'm disappointed null field gets nerfed, and boon strips getting reduced yet again, so regardless of who gets moved around in the meta, scrapper for tempest(laugh yeah right), boon spam still wins. 🤷‍♂️

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Xenesis.6389

[Jski.6180]

32 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Shadow Refuge sucks because you have to sit in it to get good stealth. Sneak Gyro has the same issue. Its not about the field.

Scrapper was about sustained clear through purge gyro and a bunch of other pulsing effects. Fumigate is also not exactly what I'd call burst cleanse, but it is very good. Tempest can actually burst clear better through applying and transmuting Auras. And nah, you dont really give up much for it.

The new blast gyro will be unusable. I dont think you understand how long 3 seconds is. You thunderclap them, stun for 1 second, then blast gyro. They move out in the 2 seconds theyre not stunned. Wow, how strong. And thats if they dont have stability. As for the stability, its on the same button as your projectile hate, so its not like you will always have it.

Sure its strong. Are you willing to give up everything for it though? Especially with how short the duration is now?

Except other classes dont have to use them. The other supports dont use wells like that, except exactly Chronomancer on exactly one skill. They use self-centered effects that either pulse, or dont pulse. Like this is something only Scrappers would have to rely on. And much like Druid before them, it makes them unusable. Im sorry, but if you dont realise that this absolutely is normal, then you need to "get good".

Its not Sneak gyro is an smoke field and dose not apply reveal its a LOT stronger.

Scraper has one pulsing gyro effect that was clear just purge every thing else was pAoE. Fumigate is a very powerful burst clear due to how fast it channels its clear effect. Transmutation are often to short of ranged to be effect burst clear for big groups its always been an issues. Even the cast time can mess up the "burst" of 2 condis cleared. If 2 is burst then there a lot more burst condi clear in the game even healing rain cleaning 2 condis per tick is now burst clear hehe. You must go all in to clear like that on tempest for traits for scraper you just need to run a utility skills. That a high cost for a class to need to do that.

That an skill issues at that point you must know where they want to go to land you skill and you must use your skills in combo with other of your own and other players to make sure you land it to its full effect. That and the blast gyro on a much lower cd the most hard cc utility. The stun rate at a range is going to be crazy after the update.

You dont give up every thing for it its part of your game play and only one trait that makes your utility able to give such effects.

They are still wells if you did not want them to be fields and have an pulsing effect then they could be something else but they do have fields and pulsing effect so they must play by that set of rules. I love to see shouts on tempest be ground tarted but that not an shout. Heck i would love if tempest shouts where wells that you place on the ground for fields and pulsing effects most support classes would LOVE that. Image FB getting support wells and not mantras getting water fields fire lights maybe even a frost field. Or if druid got wells over glyph with fields and pulsing effects like root and boon out put.

Landing skills and effects with well timing is the game play of support in gw2. If the effect simply stays on you with no means of counter (cant be cc out of the skill) then why would you ever need to be better at the game?

[UNOwen.7132]

29 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

I won't be disappointed because I'm not on that side of the fence, I play the boon strip classes, mesmer, necro, use to spellbreaker. I'm disappointed null field gets nerfed, and boon strips getting reduced yet again, so regardless of who gets moved around in the meta, scrapper for tempest(laugh yeah right), boon spam still wins. 🤷‍♂️

 

But I thought you hate stale metas, yet youre not happy with the Null Field nerf or the winds of disenchantment nerf?

[UNOwen.7132]

16 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Its not Sneak gyro is an smoke field and dose not apply reveal its a LOT stronger.

Its a lot weaker. The smoke field is as good as thieves pistol 5, which wow, thats not very good. And the reveal thing, I already explained why its moot.

16 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Scraper has one pulsing gyro effect that was clear just purge every thing else was pAoE.

Sneak Gyro and Bulwark gyro also pulse.

16 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Fumigate is a very powerful burst clear due to how fast it channels its clear effect.

Burst clear are called that because they happen instantly, not over 2.5 seconds. Its a very good condi clear, but its not a burst clear.

16 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Transmutation are often to short of ranged to be effect burst clear for big groups its always been an issues. Even the cast time can mess up the "burst" of 2 condis cleared. If 2 is burst then there a lot more burst condi clear in the game even healing rain cleaning 2 condis per tick is now burst clear hehe. You must go all in to clear like that on tempest for traits for scraper you just need to run a utility skills. That a high cost for a class to need to do that.

3 nearly instantly is burst, yes. Also, the cast time there is an issue, but the much longer one on fumigate is not? That doesnt make sense. Oh and as for transmute auras radius, that one can be an issue, but its still a decently large radius.

16 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

That an skill issues at that point you must know where they want to go to land you skill and you must use your skills in combo with other of your own and other players to make sure you land it to its full effect. That and the blast gyro on a much lower cd the most hard cc utility. The stun rate at a range is going to be crazy after the update.

You dont give up every thing for it its part of your game play and only one trait that makes your utility able to give such effects.

Blast Gyro is unusable. Full stop. Saying that its usable is a skill issue. It doesnt matter if you know where they want to go, its a very obvious area that takes 3 goddamn seconds  to blow up. No one is ever going to be hit by it. They can literally just walk through it or around it. It doesnt matter how low its cd is either, its unusable because it will never hit it. 

16 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

They are still wells if you did not want them to be fields and have an pulsing effect then they could be something else but they do have fields and pulsing effect so they must play by that set of rules. I love to see shouts on tempest be ground tarted but that not an shout. Heck i would love if tempest shouts where wells that you place on the ground for fields and pulsing effects most support classes would LOVE that. Image FB getting support wells and not mantras getting water fields fire lights maybe even a frost field. Or if druid got wells over glyph with fields and pulsing effects like root and boon out put.

Landing skills and effects with well timing is the game play of support in gw2. If the effect simply stays on you with no means of counter (cant be cc out of the skill) then why would you ever need to be better at the game?

What set of rules? The wells dont have any set set of rules. Thieves shadowstep the thief for example. No other well does that. Should we remove that? Mesmers wells have an effect when the well ends, should we also remove that? Yeah no, the "they must play by the well rules" thing is kitten. As they are, is perfectly fine. 

 

No, supports would absolute hate that. It would make them so much worse. It would instantly make Tempest unplayable. No, the gameplay of supports is timing your skill. It is not aiming, because none of them ever aim. Also whats the counter to shouts, hm? It sounds like you just dont play support and dont get it.