Preserving Class Fantasy and Build Diversity

[itspomf.9523]

I'm not going to rant about "homogenizing" professions, because that isn't what's happening here -- rather, the overabundance of common common boons is -- but instead say that the loss of unique skill effects has robbed a lot of professions of their former feel and fun to play.

And I do get it, balancing a bunch of unique passive effects was a pain and "needing" to take a Guardian, Ranger, Warrior, Revenant, and Necromancer (and a few I've probably forgotten) into every big mission really brought down build diversity, because of the need to add those extra bumps to our defenses and DPS.  So the fact they're gone is for the better.

But the problem is that we've replaced them with something that isn't unique.  Pulsing Might or Fury or Protection or whatever isn't a solution, it's a stopgap that just shifts the onus elsewhere, and fundamentally removes the purpose of these older traits and a significant part of what made each profession so special.

Perhaps Strength in Numbers would make more sense by saying "For each ally within 600 units, you and your allies take 1% less strike and condition damage (max: 10%)."  This preserves the original fantasy of the Guardian as a protective presence on the battlefield while also ensuring that clever positioning and group cohesion is rewarded -- because that remains the point, after all:  stay close, stay protected.

The same could be said of Empower Allies, by changing it to read "For each ally within 600 units, you and your allies deal 1% more strike and condition damage (max: +10%)."  Like before, it helps bolster the view of Warrior as a powerful leader and inspiring force, and would still mean that they and their allies are more efficacious in combat.

A Counterpoint:

Though perhaps we should rethink them altogether:  the proposal above simply recreates the original problem and allows players to "double-dip" on the overabundance of boons (imagine 43% less damage taken, or +35% dealt).  Perhaps it would be better to let classes be more selfish and have unique flavor.

To that end, consider something like this for Warrior:

Insurmountable Odds (Master Tactics - Proposed):  for each enemy within 320 units, you take 1% less damage and deal 1% more damage to foes (max 10%).

After all, Warrior's entire theme is a master of combat techniques that never goes down without a fight, and fighting harder and stronger in the thick of things just feels right.

Some Closing Words:

In case it wasn't obvious, this is all stuff I came up with in the moment that's only intended to illustrate the different ways to interpret existing traits without relying upon boon application.  The numbers are arbitrary and not designed to replace anything outright -- they're just easier for a thought experiment than a handful of vague words.  The use of countless multiplicative buffs is an entirely different discussion, and one I'm not ready to address here (though it does need to be, in the near future).

[itspomf.9523]

So as not to clutter things, I'll toy around with more ideas here:

1. Ranger:  Read the Wind (replaces Spotter) -- the projectiles of you and up to 9 additional allies are faster and have an increased chance of dealing critical hits.  Critical hits dealt with projectiles for you and these allies deal more damage.
2. Revenant:  Assassin's Presence (rework) -- you and up to 9 additional allies have an increased chance of dealing critical hits while flanking a target.  Critical hits with flanking strikes for you and these allies deal more damage.
3. Warrior:  Insurmountable Odds (replaces Empower Allies) -- strike and condition damage dealt by you and up to 9 additional allies is increased when outnumbered.  Increase these bonuses against powerful foes (champions and legendaries).
4. Guardian:  Strength in Numbers (rework) -- conditions received by you and up to 9 additional allies expire faster and are less debilitating.  Damaging conditions received have reduced effect.
5. Engineer:  Well-Oiled Machine (replaces Pinpoint Distribution) -- conditions applied by ranged attacks by you and up to 9 additional allies gain bonus duration and have increased efficacy.

Right now they're just ideas, but try to follow in the theme of each class (and its related trait line, as best as I'm able) and the original trait.

[Zaret.1450]

you must think about somethink, those boons are too good, in revs case we have been forced to use that boon forever, because it was just too overpoweredgiving boons instead might be bland but unique modifiers are just forcing players to play something and i think that is worse than loosing one "identity" buff, classes are unique enought as they are that even if unique modifiers die you still feel youre playing a rev or a warrior or a ranger.

[Mell.4873]

I mean prior to these unique traits being replaced, all benchmarks required them. This meant if you did end-game content an one of the professions was missing you where not doing benchmark dps (for some classes this was really bad). 

You know what would make my Class Fantasy worse, if I was only there becouse I provided a unique boon with a traitline or utility. I want to be there let's say as a Ranger because I'm really good at playing it. 

[Dawdler.8521]

For this idea to be good, it would mean all boons have to be poofed out of existance.

Not saying thats a bad idea, just that Anet has doubled, tripled, quadroupled, centoupled down on making boon generation so obscenely oppressive its the only way people feel they can play nowadays.

[Ruisenior.6342]

   They have removed almost every single unique buff provided to the party so i don't expect anything close to your thoughts happening. At the end of the day nothing has changed, mechanist are kings on almost every spot required, firebrands are still a must cause no class can provide the ammount of boons and boon uptime they bring to the table and thats it. 

   Just a question, what will happen if every single class can toss every single boon up to 100% uptime? I'll answer you; Firebrand will become low tier and specs that provide the highest self/unique boosts to dps will reign (lethal tempo on willbender/ elemental empowerment on Catalyst to name some) and then people will complain again.

   People is missing something here, we are playing a mmoRPG so every single class will be stronger on its own way, dont try to match a class on it's own strengths and provide something 'unique' that others can't do, if not, what's the point on bringing here different classes. I dont like the solutions that Anet is providing to us to solve this 'problem' ejem..... Maybe delete all type armors and classes and bring them all on one package so no one will complain. My god anet stop messing arround with your game.

[Mell.4873]

2 minutes ago, Ruisenior.6342 said:

   They have removed almost every single unique buff provided to the party so i don't expect anything close to your thoughts happening. At the end of the day nothing has changed, mechanist are kings on almost every spot required, firebrands are still a must cause no class can provide the ammount of boons and boon uptime they bring to the table and thats it. 

   Just a question, what will happen if every single class can toss every single boon up to 100% uptime? I'll answer you; Firebrand will become low tier and specs that provide the highest self/unique boosts to dps will reign (lethal tempo on willbender/ elemental empowerment on Catalyst to name some) and then people will complain again.

   People is missing something here, we are playing a mmoRPG so every single class will be stronger on its own way, dont try to match a class on it's own strengths and provide something 'unique' that others can't do, if not, what's the point on bringing here different classes. I dont like the solutions that Anet is providing to us to solve this 'problem' ejem..... Maybe delete all type armors and classes and bring them all on one package so no one will complain. My god anet stop messing arround with your game.

The problem is you had to bring that class in that exact preset for the unique buff. People now just require the boon and not the class, just check the LFG's.

[Ruisenior.6342]

18 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

The problem is you had to bring that class in that exact preset for the unique buff. People now just require the boon and not the class, just check the LFG's.

There will be always an optimal preset for a certain scenario, so you wont be able to flex anyways in case you try to max out your strengths in that kind of high end content

Edited September 19, 2022 by Ruisenior.6342

[Mell.4873]

7 hours ago, Ruisenior.6342 said:

There will be always an optimal preset for a certain scenario, so you wont be able to flex anyways in case you try to max out your strengths in that kind of high end content

You are wrong, most metabattle builds in particular encourage swapping out traits or utilities. If you have to bring something unique for a benchmark then you can't swap anything. 

[Ruisenior.6342]

2 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

You are wrong, most metabattle builds in particular encourage swapping out traits or utilities. If you have to bring something unique for a benchmark then you can't swap anything. 

I will end with this. Yes

[Mell.4873]

32 minutes ago, Ruisenior.6342 said:

I will end with this. Yes

Yes....? 

Removing unique buffs significantly improved the game since all golem numbers don't rely on an arbitrary class specific buff.

Imagine trying to balance critical chance when you need Spotter from Ranger and no one wants to play it. You end up sitting around waiting for one class so you can start let say a Raid.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Mell.4873

[itspomf.9523]

10 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

For this idea to be good, it would mean all boons have to be poofed out of existance.

Not saying thats a bad idea, just that Anet has doubled, tripled, quadroupled, centoupled down on making boon generation so obscenely oppressive its the only way people feel they can play nowadays.

I hate how right you are.  It's really unfortunate, too, because it just keeps reinforcing the perception that we "need" boons to succeed.

Makes me yearn for the days of GW1 when it was the timely and thoughtful application of skill effects, covers, and weird synergies that made a build impactful, rather than "who can fart out the most quickness and alacrity."

[Mell.4873]

14 minutes ago, itspomf.9523 said:

I hate how right you are.  It's really unfortunate, too, because it just keeps reinforcing the perception that we "need" boons to succeed.

Makes me yearn for the days of GW1 when it was the timely and thoughtful application of skill effects, covers, and weird synergies that made a build impactful, rather than "who can fart out the most quickness and alacrity."

Boons are a much better alterative to Unique Buffs, since more classes can apply them. It also opens up the idea of a non-selfish DPS that contributes to the Boon pool.

I mean did you know you can play Virtuoso as an Off-Healer with a 5k DPS drop while adding about 500 HPS(roughly). It might not seem like much but if you can synergies this with other classes you can create a unique party composition.

[Ashen.2907]

4 hours ago, itspomf.9523 said:

Makes me yearn for the days of GW1 when it was the timely and thoughtful application of skill effects, covers, and weird synergies that made a build impactful, rather than "who can fart out the most quickness and alacrity."

This.

The current boonspam meta is bad design.

[Kaleban.9834]

I've been thinking about this too, and one solution can actually be baked into the fact that we now have a base profession and 3 Elite specs per profession. In PvE you generally have 3 types of builds: Defensive Support/Healer, Offensive Support, DPS.

Each Profession could have a unique buff they bring as part of their core mechanic, such as a Warrior decreasing weapon swap time (and on-swap sigil CDs) on him/herself and up to 9 allies.

Then Spellbreaker would be the Defensive Support spec, Bladesworn the Offensive Support, and Berserker the DPS. Each spec's boon generation would be focused rather than haphazard, so a Defensive Support wouldn't generate Might or Quickness, but would bring Regeneration and Aegis for example.

Then apply the same formula to each profession. That way every profession brings something wholly unique to the group, while at the same time having build options that can then fill any empty gaps.

ANet could also drill down further into profession Archetypes, something like Supportive, Jack-Of-All-Trades, Offensive. Supportive types would have more access to boons, but their top end DPS builds would lag behind the Offensive who would have the least amount of boons. Essentially a sliding scale of selfishness, so a Guardian as a "Supportive" archetype would never be top tier DPS in any role but has the most access to boon generation, whereas a Thief as an "Offensive" archetype would be the opposite. You could still play a DPS Guardian or a Defensive Support Thief, but neither will be as effective as the other in a "contra-indicated" role.

[Dawdler.8521]

12 hours ago, itspomf.9523 said:

Makes me yearn for the days of GW1 when it was the timely and thoughtful application of skill effects, covers, and weird synergies that made a build impactful, rather than "who can fart out the most quickness and alacrity."

Why go back to GW1? 

We had that in GW2.

Keyword being had.

[pierwola.9602]

I still don't understand why they didn't split support builds on 3 category with HoT expansions (Buffer, Debuffer and Healer). 

 

For example:

• Buffers: Mesmer (light armor), Engineer (medium armor), Guardian (heavy armor). Provide AoE might and fire combo fields but can't apply vulnerability to enemies or cure conditions.  
• Debuffers: Necromancer (light armor), Thief (medium armor), Warrior (heavy armor). Apply vulnerability to enemies but can't buff allies or cure conditions.
• Healers: Elementalist (light armor), Ranger (medium armor), Revenant (heavy armor). Cure conditions (Weakness) but can't buff allies or debuff enemies.

or

• Buffers: Mesmer (light armor), Engineer (medium armor), Guardian (heavy armor). Provide AoE Protection but can't apply weakness to enemies or cure conditions.  
• Debuffers: Necromancer (light armor), Thief (medium armor), Warrior (heavy armor). Apply weakness to enemies but can't buff allies or cure conditions.
• Healers: Elementalist (light armor), Ranger (medium armor), Revenant (heavy armor). Cure conditions (vulnerability) but can't buff allies or debuff enemies.

or

• Buffers: Mesmer (light armor), Engineer (medium armor), Guardian (heavy armor). Provide AoE blocks but can't apply blind to enemies or heal allies.  
• Debuffers: Necromancer (light armor), Thief (medium armor), Warrior (heavy armor). Apply blindess on enemies but can't AoE block or heal allies.
• Healers: Elementalist (light armor), Ranger (medium armor), Revenant (heavy armor). Heal allies but can't AoE block or blind.

They do different things but the outcome is the same. More damage and better survivability.

Edited September 20, 2022 by pierwola.9602

[Kaladel.1670]

23 minutes ago, pierwola.9602 said:

...

The game could have been better if more boons and conditions were treated the same way Aegis was (and still is, mostly). Aegis has always been a guardian thing, with very little of it available to other professions. If that kind of proprietary boon/condition had been more widespread, some profession would have been more valuable in some game mode and not just considered trash tier with nothing meaningful to contribute.

Quote

Debuffers: Necromancer (light armor), Thief (medium armor), Warrior (heavy armor). Apply vulnerability to enemies but can't buff allies or cure conditions.

The idea here was probably what was intended for Necro at launch, for instance. But everyone and their pet dog being able to apply vuln without even thinking about it made it irrelevant. If 5 players can max the vulnerability stacks, why would you want a vulnerability specialist?

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, Kaleban.9834 said:

I've been thinking about this too, and one solution can actually be baked into the fact that we now have a base profession and 3 Elite specs per profession. In PvE you generally have 3 types of builds: Defensive Support/Healer, Offensive Support, DPS.

Each Profession could have a unique buff they bring as part of their core mechanic, such as a Warrior decreasing weapon swap time (and on-swap sigil CDs) on him/herself and up to 9 allies.

Then Spellbreaker would be the Defensive Support spec, Bladesworn the Offensive Support, and Berserker the DPS. Each spec's boon generation would be focused rather than haphazard, so a Defensive Support wouldn't generate Might or Quickness, but would bring Regeneration and Aegis for example.

Then apply the same formula to each profession. That way every profession brings something wholly unique to the group, while at the same time having build options that can then fill any empty gaps.

ANet could also drill down further into profession Archetypes, something like Supportive, Jack-Of-All-Trades, Offensive. Supportive types would have more access to boons, but their top end DPS builds would lag behind the Offensive who would have the least amount of boons. Essentially a sliding scale of selfishness, so a Guardian as a "Supportive" archetype would never be top tier DPS in any role but has the most access to boon generation, whereas a Thief as an "Offensive" archetype would be the opposite. You could still play a DPS Guardian or a Defensive Support Thief, but neither will be as effective as the other in a "contra-indicated" role.

I guess what you are saying is infact how the game plays out but what if you want to play a Class but be a different archetype. Would you not feel useless compared to the superior Class with the archetype you want.

I mean for the longest time the support role was dominated by Guardian and now we have many more option. For example I like Mesmer support but people won't pick me in the line up of potential classes. 

[Sahne.6950]

anyone remembers chrono being king of alac and quickness? you know... time theme....

[Diktator.8927]

3 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I guess what you are saying is infact how the game plays out but what if you want to play a Class but be a different archetype. Would you not feel useless compared to the superior Class with the archetype you want.

That's the point? It's an RPG game after all. You can't have everyone doing everything, you need some defined roles. 

Would you be complaining about Druids being kitten at dps right now? Their role is very-well defined, they're primarily a healing/support spec. If you wanted to go the DPS route, you technically could, but you're not gonna be great at it, in fact you'll be quite bad at it. 

Every other MMORPG I've played has defined roles, if you want to pick a certain role, you need to pick a certain class. That's the case with most games that deal with different classes.
If we take @Kaleban.9834's example, where each elite spec is designed for a different role, in GW2 you would have access to all roles in all 9 professions. 

[Mell.4873]

7 hours ago, Diktator.8927 said:

That's the point? It's an RPG game after all. You can't have everyone doing everything, you need some defined roles. 

Would you be complaining about Druids being kitten at dps right now? Their role is very-well defined, they're primarily a healing/support spec. If you wanted to go the DPS route, you technically could, but you're not gonna be great at it, in fact you'll be quite bad at it. 

Every other MMORPG I've played has defined roles, if you want to pick a certain role, you need to pick a certain class. That's the case with most games that deal with different classes.
If we take @Kaleban.9834's example, where each elite spec is designed for a different role, in GW2 you would have access to all roles in all 9 professions. 

Meh it was just me countering or adding the discussion. I think the Devs do plan to move away from classes having defined roles rather the Elite Specialization will have those roles. This is a natural transition since we will have another round of new Elites.

The end result will every class can preform every role in there own unique way. Some Classes can already do this like Mesmer, in a Strike or Raid setting they can definitely fill a slot for any role, maybe not in fractals quite yet.

I do like the idea that everyone Elite specialization has least have one good DPS option and one Good support option(even Druid). I mean for the longest time people complained about Selfish DPS like Virtuoso and Reaper, providing them some group synergy would be nice.
(On a side note Virtuoso can group heal a little if they take Inspiration traitline)

 

[Dawdler.8521]

On 9/20/2022 at 12:48 PM, Sahne.6950 said:

anyone remembers chrono being king of alac and quickness? you know... time theme....

Alacrity? Quickness? Ooh new and shiny boon stuff.

I remember when core mesmer was the king of confusion and could kill a zerg with the feedback bubble.

[Sahne.6950]

17 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Alacrity? Quickness? Ooh new and shiny boon stuff.

I remember when core mesmer was the king of confusion and could kill a zerg with the feedback bubble.

OHHHH the nostalgia.... i remember that! i just shed a tear....    Thank you for this moment.

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Kalthea.4326]

I feel that this is being far too over-thought, and is going the wrong way. Instead of focusing on buffs for the entire party, I would argue that a lot of the buffs should be self-centered primarily. Provide a buff to yourself from a profession, giving it a meaningful change to your kit or providing a different playstyle, and remove the boons that have no reason to be around in a game like this. Remove all traits and boons that adjust cooldown timers (alacrity, slow, 20% weapon/skill traits), and then you can balance everything else far more easily. Don't want quickness to be up 100% of the time? Either make it a personal boon, or remove it and make 50% of its speed bonus baseline, this resolving a lot of timing issues some classes may have with their abilities. Or just remove it entirely. Point being, there are too many boons that are too powerful and too easy to keep up for balance to be feasible in a game like this. So long as those boons exist, you're only going to dig the balance hole deeper and deeper. As I've stated many times before, classes need to be designed in isolation.