LF HB

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

While things got better for a while and groups were taking alot more diversity in their compositions, in the last few months we're back to "LF HB" (for those who don't know, Looking for HealBrand), in most listings.

 

This is because you tried too hard not to give Firebrand a real contender in the balance updates. There's now three good options for AlacHeal and four if you count AlacRen who is still "okay" at the job, but the only viable contenders for Firebrand for the QuickHeal slot are Herald and Warrior, and QuickHealShout Warrior is being deleted in the upcoming balance patch that destroys Tactical Reload for some reason.

 

So we'll look at Herald specifically and where things went wrong:

- Tomes. The most obvious problem, giving Firebrand instant access to 15 extra skills to deal with a wide variety of situations, including every major task such as heal burst, reflect and Stability provision.

- Weaponswap. Firebrand has two good support weapon combinations (Mace/Shield and Staff) which means that they have effectively double the healing output just from weaponswap alone, while classes like Herald only have one or "one and a half" support weapons, with Herald and Warrior having no supportive mainhand at all. (Druid has the same problem here, even if they don't fit into this discussion.)

- Quickness. Firebrand doesn't have to spam all their skills for Quickness, 2-3 skills at most is more than enough, allowing them to save skills for when they're actually needed instead of always being on cooldown just to provide a boon, improving their ability to adapt to situations.

- Stability. Herald can't take healing (Ventari) and group Stability (Jalis) at the same time. Firebrand can do this easily.

 

This isn't even an exhaustive list, and my goal here isn't to show what's wrong with Herald specifically. Its more to point out that the reason Firebrand continues to dominate all game modes except PvP is you're being too careful with balancing. As long as you're worrying about creating "the next Firebrand", nothing will ever change and we'll be stuck with only one viable class for QuickHeal.

 

Disclaimer: I main QHFB in end-game instanced content..

Edited September 20, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Linken.6345]

59 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

While things got better for a while and groups were taking alot more diversity in their compositions, in the last few months we're back to "LF HB" (for those who don't know, Looking for HealBrand), in most listings.

 

This is because you tried too hard not to give Firebrand a real contender in the balance updates. There's now three good options for AlacHeal and four if you count AlacRen who is still "okay" at the job, but the only viable contenders for Firebrand for the QuickHeal slot are Herald and Warrior, and QuickHealShout Warrior is being deleted in the upcoming balance patch that destroys Tactical Reload for some reason.

 

So we'll look at Herald specifically and where things went wrong:

- Tomes. The most obvious problem, giving Firebrand instant access to 15 extra skills to deal with a wide variety of situations, including every major task such as heal burst, reflect and Stability provision.

- Weaponswap. Firebrand has two good support weapon combinations (Mace/Shield and Staff) which means that they have effectively double the healing output just from weaponswap alone, while classes like Herald only have one or "one and a half" support weapons, with Herald and Warrior having no supportive mainhand at all. (Druid has the same problem here, even if they don't fit into this discussion.)

- Quickness. Firebrand doesn't have to spam all their skills for Quickness, 2-3 skills at most is more than enough, allowing them to save skills for when they're actually needed instead of always being on cooldown just to provide a boon, improving their ability to adapt to situations.

- Stability. Herald can't take healing (Ventari) and group Stability (Jalis) at the same time. Firebrand can do this easily.

 

This isn't even an exhaustive list, and my goal here isn't to show what's wrong with Herald specifically. Its more to point out that the reason Firebrand continues to dominate all game modes except PvP is you're being too careful with balancing. As long as you're worrying about creating "the next Firebrand", nothing will ever change and we'll be stuck with only one viable class for QuickHeal.

 

Disclaimer: I main QHFB in end-game instanced content..

Aint qdps also dominated by firebrands?

[sokeenoppa.5384]

Quick heal scrapper is not that far away from hfb, it also has different kind of utility such as superspeed, aoe stealth, rez gyro and huge heal output.

[Cyninja.2954]

Groups looking for HFB over Hmech atm are pretty much the incompetent little brothers to the actual best-in-slot comp for PvE:

Hmech+qfb.

 

In both cases the reason firebrand excels is:

- insane versatility and access to pretty much all utility skills at will

- access to a lot of stab and aegis

- easy to play

Interesting side fact: all of this versatility is far more useful on a quickness dps firebrand versus a heal firebrand because this way you can opt to take another insane heal support (in this case hmech) and gain access to that classes utility while retaining access to all of the firebrands utility. Ever seen a breakbar react to a fb and mech cc?

The only area of the game where this applies less is fractal CMs, where players are used to having the hfb cover all the mechanics and a quickness dps firebrand would lose to much time on using defensive skills (costing him dps which other alacrity dps do not suffer). Suffice to say, a hmech and qfb (where the qfb covers the stab mechanics) role through CMs just as well.

TL;DR:

The solution here is not only to bring other classes up to the level of firebrand, which constitutes even more power creep than we have seen lately, it's to redistribute and re-balance alacrity and quickness roles to give equal options in regards to utility when combining different offensive and defensive supports.

Case in point: in this case other quickness supports shouldn't be brought up to the level of firebrand, instead one or some of the alacrity supports should be. Example: let's assume heal tempest was given better access to stability and aegis. This would immediately open up new support compositions where qfb would not have to be the quickness provider.

The defensive supports abilities defines the composition (which is why HFB is so much more flexible in what offensive alacrity support it can be paired with versus other heal supports. The fact most offensive alacrity supports are inferior to their quickness counterparts is the only speed-bump).

Meanwhile, making quickness and alacrity supports more equal in both complexity, utility, gearing and ease of application would also go a long way (currently most quickness supports are far superior to their alacrity counterparts, the reason most see less play than qfb is explained above).

Edited September 20, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Lottie.5370]

4 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Groups looking for HFB over Hmech atm are pretty much the incompetent little brothers to the actual best-in-slot comp for PvE:

Hmech+qfb.

 

In both cases the reason firebrand excels is:

- insane versatility and access to pretty much all utility skills at will

- access to a lot of stab and aegis

- easy to play

Interesting side fact: all of this versatility is far more useful on a quickness dps firebrand versus a heal firebrand because this way you can opt to take another insane heal support (in this case hmech) and gain access to that classes utility while retaining access to all of the firebrands utility. Ever seen a breakbar react to a fb and mech cc?

The only area of the game where this applies less is fractal CMs, where players are used to having the hfb cover all the mechanics and a quickness dps firebrand would lose to much time on using defensive skills (costing him dps which other alacrity dps do not suffer). Suffice to say, a hmech and qfb (where the qfb covers the stab mechanics) role through CMs just as well.

TL;DR:

The solution here is not only to bring other classes up to the level of firebrand, which constitutes even more power creep than we have seen lately, it's to redistribute and re-balance alacrity and quickness roles to give equal options in regards to utility when combining different offensive and defensive supports.

Case in point: in this case other quickness supports shouldn't be brought up to the level of firebrand, instead one or some of the alacrity supports should be. Example: let's assume heal tempest was given better access to stability and aegis. This would immediately open up new support compositions where qfb would not have to be the quickness provider.

The defensive supports abilities defines the composition (which is why HFB is so much more flexible in what offensive alacrity support it can be paired with versus other heal supports. The fact most offensive alacrity supports are inferior to their quickness counterparts is the only speed-bump).

Meanwhile, making quickness and alacrity supports more equal in both complexity, utility, gearing and ease of application would also go a long way (currently most quickness supports are far superior to their alacrity counterparts, the reason most see less play than qfb is explained above).

 

Never seen a TL;DR longer than the actual post before. That said, I mostly agree.

 

Firebrand is obviously the most versatile class, due to the tomes and having having 2 utility slots and 1 elite slot free to run anything (with qFB having 1 + 1 (depending on boon duration) since you want to always run purging, but this can be replaced still) - where as most other supports are locked into specific utilities and aren't able to change much around. I think the main issue is just how much utility is tied to the tomes, which you have access to all the time - doesn't matter what your build/traits are, you always have access to boons (stab + aegis included, with up to 5 stacks of stab even), CC and healing (and condi cleanse) - or just a healing boost for your healers to heal more (Tome 2 - 5). I think they kinda put themselves into a corner with balancing because of it.

 

Other supports need proper access to stab/aegis to compete (mostly stability, lets be honest). The last changes made other classes slightly more viable in some encounters (i.e. a heal tempest can cover stab in KO CM now), but they're still almost laughable to run compared to HAM/hFB/qFB.

I see a lot more different quickness classes than I do alac classes, but it's nearly always qDPS and Alacheal. In the last few months, I think I've seen one HAT, sometimes a druid (raids only), but always at least one HAM (2 in 80% of cases, 99% in strikes). For quickness, I see quite a lot of qFB, but also a lot of qHerald (especially in raids), also qScrapper and qHarbinger, and rarely qChrono.

 

But for qHeals? You basically have hFB and hScrapper, and most people don't really know much about Scrapper, so are likely to just look for hFB if they want a heal quick. Scrapper also doesn't offer the same level of stab or aegis, even if it provides some other things.

 

The fact is, any group running hFB + Alacdps is going to do just fine pretty much anywhere (let's ignore HT CM for this). I think the problem is that, then the utility is shoved almost completely onto the hFB. Alacdps classes just don't offer as much, so you either just run a HAM and a useful quick, or a stacked heal quick and an alacdps.

 

The changes to Alac Spectre will give it access to (forgot the word I want to say, but before Well of Bounty was random boons, and now you know the boons you will give, in the order of application) stab and aegis, but otherwise it's receiving another nerf (shroud heal, which also will lower DPS on fights with a lot of dmg as you'll have less shroud). Otherwise Spectre has great CC with basi/pistol, but basically provides no might (locking you into a quickness that provides full/nearly full might uptime - hFB).

 

Power/Condi Alac Mech has no access to stab, but provides a decent amount of might. This opens you up to other heal quicks that maybe can't give might, but then they need to be able to provide stab if required. qScrapper doesn't have great access to stab (bulwark gyro toolbelt skill is the only one I can think of, which might not be enough for some encounters due to cooldown/range viability).

 

I can't really think of another Alacdps class. Revenant hasn't been meta in ages, I don't even see them for ventari bubbles anymore as people just run a qHerald from my experience.

 

Oh right, there's staff mirage... tl;dr might ok, damage bad/mediocre (except for Largos/SH), cc ok, no stab. Disadvantage to other classes is the lack of viability across content.

 

There's not a single encounter where HAM or hFB are bad (or well, the only encounter I can think of where hFB is less viable is HT CM) - you can't say that for other classes.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

When it comes to balancing support, ANet is quicky adjusting any spec but Firebrand in order to give other professions a chance. I understand why both ANet and certain groups of our community adore FB so much. It is basically the most optimized class in the game. Any change done to it results in weakening it. But it carries every support-required content almost single handedly. There are a few jobs FB is not so good at, but still sufficient. And there are some jobs it is unrivaled by any other profession - except if they focus every ounce of potential into that one aspect and ultimately sacrifice versatility and often precious DPS.

Is this a good situation?
It definitely is a convenient situation. Everyone profits from this, especially because Guardian in general and FB in particular are rather 'easy' to learn and master.

And on the other side?
Firebrand is stuck in development. Most elite specializations have faced numerous changes, even reworks of mechanics to allow them access to different functionalities. Some became meta (e. g. Untamed) and some fell out of the meta (e. g. Catalyst). Specializations as e. g. Scrapper are basically the exact opposite of the FB. They are constantly facing changes that impact them drastically.

But that is not a bad thing. Sure the class swaps in and out of the meta, depending on the 'mood of the balance team', but there is a constant evolution in design. There is progress. How many different roles we had since Heart of Thorns? We have been tanks, bruisers, buffers, healers. On a single elite-specialization!

Those are the two examples in the list, the other specializations also faced changes. Some faced more changes, some less. Progress requires change. 

Do we need class progression?
FB is perfect the way it is. Never change a winning system.

Well the game does not stop in time and neither does its community. Preferences change over time. Requirements change over time. The convenience we earn from leaving the FB as it is, we pay later for the inability to adapt to changed circumstances.

Note: I do not ask for a nerf of FB! It has its place in the game right now and it is needed the way it is to maintain stability.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I didn't count QuickHeal Scrapper since the Medkit change really hurt it and made HAM superior in basically every way since they still have barrier generation and its healing+barrier that pushes it over the top.

 

I don't have the numbers on me but Warrior was also putting out more healing due to sheer spam.

 

Oh, and you know, the gyros are getting destroyed in PvE too for some reason. I mean, they'll still be okay on static bosses that don't move around, but otherwise its not going to do anything to help Scrapper's viability for the QuickHeal slot and I'd say its nearly dead as a support in PvE.

 

(And yes, I do play it.. my original Dungoneer is a QHSc since they're king of skips.)

Edited September 20, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[sokeenoppa.5384]

10 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I didn't count QuickHeal Scrapper since the Medkit change really hurt it and made HAM superior in basically every way since they still have barrier generation and its healing+barrier that pushes it over the top.

 

I don't have the numbers on me but Warrior was also putting out more healing due to sheer spam.

 

Oh, and you know, the gyros are getting destroyed in PvE too for some reason. I mean, they'll still be okay on static bosses that don't move around, but otherwise its not going to do anything to help Scrapper's viability for the QuickHeal slot and I'd say its nearly dead as a support in PvE.

 

(And yes, I do play it.. my original Dungoneer is a QHSc since they're king of skips.)

Gyro change is weird but its also a small buff in some way. After the patch you will give quickness with first pulse with your ground targeted gyros, so ppl dont really have time to walk away from them. quickness time also won't drop If multiple mechanics force you to leave Stack for whatever reason.

Upkeeping quickness while tanking a bit bigger boss where group sometimes won't stack close enough gets easier aswell, such as w6 qadim Hydra.

 

Or maybe i just try to like my qdps scrapper 😅

Edited September 21, 2022 by sokeenoppa.5384

[Alcatraznc.3869]

Firebrand is an issue however there is another side of the coin that is people misconception of other support.

 

Firebrand needs to be changed that is true however it does not means other support like quickness Scrapper(both as healer and DPS) , Heal Tempest alac or even Druid alac are bad support. Yeah the nerf on the medkit and elixir gun were completely stupid and had 0 thought behind but it can still be a decent healer

 

A lot of people sleep on those support just because hurr durr Ham and HFB stonk, even though they can perfectly do the same job and that is really sad. 

 

 

 

 

[RenneBright.2473]

On 9/20/2022 at 9:04 AM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

This is because you tried too hard not to give Firebrand a real contender in the balance updates. There's now three good options for AlacHeal and four if you count AlacRen who is still "okay" at the job, but the only viable contenders for Firebrand for the QuickHeal slot are Herald and Warrior, and QuickHealShout Warrior is being deleted in the upcoming balance patch that destroys Tactical Reload for some reason.

 

 

- Quickness. Firebrand doesn't have to spam all their skills for Quickness, 2-3 skills at most is more than enough, allowing them to save skills for when they're actually needed instead of always being on cooldown just to provide a boon, improving their ability to adapt to situations.

- Stability. Herald can't take healing (Ventari) and group Stability (Jalis) at the same time. Firebrand can do this easily.

 

This isn't even an exhaustive list, and my goal here isn't to show what's wrong with Herald specifically. Its more to point out that the reason Firebrand continues to dominate all game modes except PvP is you're being too careful with balancing. As long as you're worrying about creating "the next Firebrand", nothing will ever change and we'll be stuck with only one viable class for QuickHeal.

 

Disclaimer: I main QHFB in end-game instanced content..

 

I disagree with the Herald parts, and not just because of Herald heal tank on raids and heal quick Herald on CMs+T4s being one of my main healers lately.

- The only edge Hfb has over Herald is Aegis. Otherwise, Herald has a MUCH better duration upkeep for all boons. And almost NO ONE plays with Shield of the Avenger in W7 when it comes to Hfb. Ventari's dome is always preferred over Hfb. Aegis ONLY matters for Qadim CM & Deimos CM's Mind Crush. Even Resistance is a decent alternative to counter Sloth's fear or Matt's during the 40% transition (+ his perma chill). Hfb only has the edge over heal Herald in VERY SPECIFIC situations/bosses.
- You don't really need Ventari for bosses like Skorvald, QTP, Gorseval, Samarog (including CM) etc. where stability matters more than more overhealing. I only use Ventari when the pressure is clearly higher than other bosses (No need of healing food either, I did the testing several times, assuming you're running full Harrier or similar). Referring to bosses like VG, SH or as HK/tanking Deimos' Mind Crush during the split etc. It's only a problem on Gorse if you wanna slow CC, I usually do fast CC with higher group DPS though so I have no problems with that.
- Specifically for Fractals, the problem comes from your average pug being sectarian or ignorant who only plays as OTP Hfbs. I even saw one DPS ragequitted the party because I was playing Herald quickheal and not his OTP Hfb spec . It's CLEARLY a mindset issue from people.
- I've yet to see a Quickheal Warrior, Heal Scrapper remains more common than the former. And Heal Herald isn't even played THAT often. Some pugs said they even didn't know Herald could heal + quick 2-3 months after the first patch for that. Not everyone read patch notes.
- I'm not against competition in spec choice, I played with a Heal Scrapper, Dudu (outside of W5), Tempest just fine as a DPS or Pylon (I know it's about Hfb, so I'm talking more in general about which healer specs are being spammed over the others). The problem again comes from people's willingness to play the specs outside of the ones being spammed, and ignorance for others. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Thel.9087

[Stand The Wall.6987]

On 9/20/2022 at 12:04 AM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

QuickHealShout Warrior is being deleted in the upcoming balance patch that destroys Tactical Reload for some reason.

it makes bs too strong in terms of sustain in pvp.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

If you want quick heal shout warrior then swap Martial Cadence and Warrior's Cunning, double the healing on VS, and double the barrier on Call of Valor.