Buff Staff (annual update)

[Newholiday.8103]

Buff staff.  Just increase projectile speed. That's it.  Not asking for much.  Just want to actually be able to hit moving targets.

[Animism.7530]

Increase projectile speed, change/revamp fire 3, water 4, air 2, 5, earth 4. 

Make it an AOE class with lower single target DPS but massive AOE. 

Savannah Heat, Tehnai's heat. Maelstrom. 
Invoke lightning, Arc lightning

Unsteady ground (GW1 variant). 

Just some obvious examples. 

Fix Meteor storm as the nerfs over the years have trashed it. 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Animism.7530

[Stand The Wall.6987]

pls buff staff kthxbai

[Junkpile.7439]

Let me at least choose if i wanna drop one big meteor or shower of small ones. Meteor shower really lack impact. Sure you probably do most of damage in blob, but nobody actually care our 2-3k crits. These skills like water 2 should do much more damage. Stupid ice block just hower in the air and wait that enemy slowly walk out of range.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Junkpile.7439

[tykel.6073]

On 10/13/2022 at 5:06 PM, Animism.7530 said:

Increase projectile speed, change/revamp fire 3, water 4, air 2, 5, earth 4. 

Make it an AOE class with lower single target DPS but massive AOE. 

Savannah Heat, Tehnai's heat. Maelstrom. 
Invoke lightning, Arc lightning

Unsteady ground (GW1 variant). 

Just some obvious examples. 

Fix Meteor storm as the nerfs over the years have trashed it. 

Don’t forget air 3 and 4, the most trash skills. Air 5 is good enough in wvw that changing just 2-4 is fine by me. Or just rework air completely. Either is fine.

[EyzKold.8247]

I hardly use staff anymore but I would add more damage and have staff skills set to 1500 range to compete with rifle and longbow.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Yesterday I chose to do WvW again after a long break of gw2 group content :

No joke I casted my Meteor shower on a static group of 5-6 players killing a Lord, only 3 meteors hit 2~3 targets for 4k damage max each !!!??? I could have just spam 1 on the same time for more damage. 

[soulknight.9620]

21 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

No joke I casted my Meteor shower on a static group of 5-6 players killing a Lord, only 3 meteors hit 2~3 targets for 4k damage max each !!!??? I could have just spam 1 on the same time for more damage. 

You are rly lucky that ur targets werent fully buffed. I usually hit enemy zerg for a whooping 1.5-2.5k while being fully buffed myself.

[solemn.9670]

On 10/23/2022 at 9:17 AM, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Yesterday I chose to do WvW again after a long break of gw2 group content :

No joke I casted my Meteor shower on a static group of 5-6 players killing a Lord, only 3 meteors hit 2~3 targets for 4k damage max each !!!??? I could have just spam 1 on the same time for more damage. 

Yup

Full zerk scholar rune with buff, +200 power on kill food buff active, on a secondary staff with 25 stacks of bloodlust active and force (5%) + impact (3% to 10% if cc) and might, meteor shower will do about 3k-4k on avg vs boon blobs 🙂

nerf staff weaver tho I mean too OP right guys I mean everyone was abusing it we had to fix it somehow right? Just nerf staff ele again and again so that all the good players quit the game and we are left with Necro firebrand meta permanently

[soulknight.9620]

21 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

nerf staff weaver tho I mean too OP right guys I mean everyone was abusing it we had to fix it somehow right? Just nerf staff ele again and again so that all the good players quit the game and we are left with Necro firebrand meta permanently

I smell something meta-defining! 

[Strider.7849]

On 10/13/2022 at 2:06 PM, Animism.7530 said:

Increase projectile speed, change/revamp fire 3, water 4, air 2, 5, earth 4. 

Make it an AOE class with lower single target DPS but massive AOE. 

Savannah Heat, Tehnai's heat. Maelstrom. 
Invoke lightning, Arc lightning

Unsteady ground (GW1 variant). 

Just some obvious examples. 

Fix Meteor storm as the nerfs over the years have trashed it. 

Water 4, earth 4, and air 5 are powerful abilities if used correctly. I'm saying this as someone that literally only played elementalist for staff, both in duels and large scale. I would not like those changed or removed.

 

I'd rather them change fire 3, and air 4. My old proposition was to move air 5 to air 4's slot and create a new skill entirely for air 5. A rapid damage, AoE, lightning storm that applies vulnerability would be perfect in my opinion. 

 

The other skills throughout staff just need damage numbers tuned, projectile speed increases, or wider range.

[Animism.7530]

47 minutes ago, Strider.7849 said:

Water 4, earth 4, and air 5 are powerful abilities if used correctly. I'm saying this as someone that literally only played elementalist for staff, both in duels and large scale. I would not like those changed or removed.

 

I'd rather them change fire 3, and air 4. My old proposition was to move air 5 to air 4's slot and create a new skill entirely for air 5. A rapid damage, AoE, lightning storm that applies vulnerability would be perfect in my opinion. 

 

The other skills throughout staff just need damage numbers tuned, projectile speed increases, or wider range.

Those skills are only useful in WvW. I think it's fair to suggest there are more people playing PvE than WvW, and so I'm sorry to undermine your argument by relegating WvW, but that is the reality of the situation. 

PvE comes first. You wouldn't be complaining if Staff Ele was still viable in WvW, but also in PvE, you're just saying that it's fine in WvW so there's no need to care about PvE changes. I'm also not suggesting the vice versa. 

[Strider.7849]

29 minutes ago, Animism.7530 said:

Those skills are only useful in WvW. I think it's fair to suggest there are more people playing PvE than WvW, and so I'm sorry to undermine your argument by relegating WvW, but that is the reality of the situation. 

PvE comes first. You wouldn't be complaining if Staff Ele was still viable in WvW, but also in PvE, you're just saying that it's fine in WvW so there's no need to care about PvE changes. I'm also not suggesting the vice versa. 

These are useful skills in PvE as well. 

[Animism.7530]

53 minutes ago, Strider.7849 said:

These are useful skills in PvE as well. 

Mind answering why you believe an AOE chill, and a couple poor movement blocks are valuable in PvE? 
Are you aware they were made before changes to CC, back when the effects would work on all enemies, not just weak enemies? 

 

 

[Infinity.2876]

Air is garbage earth is a major dps loss water is good for support and fire is ok but fire 5 is a waste of time.

Elementalist already has scepter for range dps what staff needs to be is a support weapon

 

Meteor shower: either increase damage coeff and decrease aoe, reduce cast time, or add might to ally hit

Air 1: add enemies already effected gain a lightning strike which does increased damage on crit.

Air 2: add fury

Air 5: increase aoe

Earth 5: instead of tunnel effect have a half circle effect radius

Earth 4: add if used stability immobilize on cross

[Strider.7849]

16 hours ago, Animism.7530 said:

Mind answering why you believe an AOE chill, and a couple poor movement blocks are valuable in PvE? 
Are you aware they were made before changes to CC, back when the effects would work on all enemies, not just weak enemies? 

 

 

Combine the skills. You can trap groups of enemies with earth 4/air 5 with chill over that. Both the chill and air5 are unblockable as well. You can also combine 2 of these AoE cc's with lightning rod - taking aside the damage/weakness portion, this also helps immensely with waves of mobs/tagging. Water 4 can be blasted with water2 for an AoE frost aura, air5 gives swiftness (hence my suggestion on removing the current air4 and giving air some AoE damage/vulnerability).

 

These CC's also help you get off casting skills with long channels. If you've been playing PvE only as a staff user and not using your crowd control abilities (outside of many raids/strikes or bosses) you'd probably find yourself in down state more often than you really should. I understand you don't do anything pvp, but you won't understand the true value of these skills if you don't see a competent player using them - these skills also translate to PvE, especially open world and festivals like our current one. 

 

If you remove the CC's from staff, it will be a garbage weapon.

[Vissarion.6509]

They need to update staff projectile auto-attacks, they are terrible and don't compete with today's standards. 

Decrease damage, make them faster to cast/land on targets, bigger AOE radius for fire (240 instead of 180), earth #1 should give bleed and have some kind of AOE, maybe remove weakness in PvP to compensate or something, it's a really bad skills as is, Air #1 should hit 5 targets and have 1/2 cast time, less damage to compensate, but faster projectile speed.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

Very good thread, and very good analysis from everybody. 

 

I really enjoy playing elementalists.

I have 5, all unique in their own way.

I agree with everyone.

Elementalists need major buffs, especially on staff.

 

Fire needs to do more damage. Its been way overly nerfed.

Fire 2 has to inflict burning for longer and vulnerability. 

Also needs to start inflicting damage earlier to coincide with animation and also inflict crippling or slow.

3 needs to inflict burning for longer and be THE fire signature skill, inflicting massive damage. Since its a single cast with no pulses.

5 needs to cast faster and do more damage, or cause knocked down.

 

Water is too low on damage.

Either increase its damage output or increase healing and regen both in value and frequency.

Water 2 needs to be an instant cast. The Ice spike need to drop immediately; not hover above for that period of time. 

3 needs a complete rework as it's just a mini version of 5.

Perhaps making healing orbs float and seek allies; then hover around them for healing and frost aura. 

 

Air needs to apply quickness, swiftness and alacrity with every cast.

2 could display lighting bolts on target.

3 Gust AoE needs an increase.

 

Earth needs to offer more protection,  aegis, stability, and resolution.

Earth 2 needs to be cast instantly and have more visible visual effects. Also cause knock down before the cripple and bleeding.

 

 

[Animism.7530]

On 10/28/2022 at 7:49 AM, Strider.7849 said:

Combine the skills. You can trap groups of enemies with earth 4/air 5 with chill over that. Both the chill and air5 are unblockable as well. You can also combine 2 of these AoE cc's with lightning rod - taking aside the damage/weakness portion, this also helps immensely with waves of mobs/tagging. Water 4 can be blasted with water2 for an AoE frost aura, air5 gives swiftness (hence my suggestion on removing the current air4 and giving air some AoE damage/vulnerability).

 

These CC's also help you get off casting skills with long channels. If you've been playing PvE only as a staff user and not using your crowd control abilities (outside of many raids/strikes or bosses) you'd probably find yourself in down state more often than you really should. I understand you don't do anything pvp, but you won't understand the true value of these skills if you don't see a competent player using them - these skills also translate to PvE, especially open world and festivals like our current one. 

 

If you remove the CC's from staff, it will be a garbage weapon.

I half agree with you and half disagree. 
The CC skills are outright bad compared with other classes abilities. It's not that they are entirely functionally useless, but it's limited benefit. 

Essentially I think these skills should be buffed in some way if not removed entirely. I still think the staff should have way more AOE DPS than it currently has, replacing a few skills; and that meteor shower is far too weak for its cast time and as a major DPS ability. 

I do go into PVP. I'm aware of what it is like and how weak the weapon is compared to others. WvW is slightly different. This is really indisputable. 

 

Ele has way too many problems which is compounded by the fact that the weapon the majority of people want to play with as a typical archetype, is awful. I base this on the fact that I play with all the different caveats in mind - and I will always keep relating things to Mechanist, as it is the sole reason I started playing an Engineer. The rotation is absurdly easy while the DPS is above others in many situations due to its ranged ability. 

I mean just think about that - the Mechanist has better ranged ability, easier DPS, better survivability, better access to boons; so what is the point in me playing Ele (my favourite class since GW1 Prophecies trailer)? 
I want to play it, but Anet have literally forced me off of it by nerfing and promoting other classes that tower over it. 

[ATMAvatar.5749]

One of my biggest gripes with staff is how long it takes for most skills to do damage.

 

• Meteor Storm takes a second or two before the first meteor drops
• Lava Font takes a second before the first pulse
• Ice Spike takes a second or two before it hits
• Lightning Surge doesn't damage until the cast time is completed
• Eruption takes a second or two to finally erupt
• ...and every projectile takes a second or two before striking the target

 

Literally the only staff skill that provides instant damage is Flame Burst, and before August, nearly all its damage came from the burning.

 

As a result, most specs can do massive damage before staff even gets started.  The mediocre damage is already problematic, and the delayed damage just makes it feel even less powerful.

 

I'm not going to lie: the spec still needs significantly more damage to be viable, but it also needs to do its damage much quicker or it will always feel clunky.

Edited October 29, 2022 by ATMAvatar.5749

[Incurve Giidis.7829]

revert this ty

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Incurve Giidis.7829

[soulknight.9620]

20 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Fire needs to do more damage. Its been way overly nerfed.

Fire 2 has to inflict burning for longer and vulnerability. 

Also needs to start inflicting damage earlier to coincide with animation and also inflict crippling or slow.

3 needs to inflict burning for longer and be THE fire signature skill, inflicting massive damage. Since its a single cast with no pulses.

5 needs to cast faster and do more damage, or cause knocked down.

 

Water is too low on damage.

Either increase its damage output or increase healing and regen both in value and frequency.

Water 2 needs to be an instant cast. The Ice spike need to drop immediately; not hover above for that period of time. 

3 needs a complete rework as it's just a mini version of 5.

Perhaps making healing orbs float and seek allies; then hover around them for healing and frost aura. 

 

Air needs to apply quickness, swiftness and alacrity with every cast.

2 could display lighting bolts on target.

3 Gust AoE needs an increase.

 

Earth needs to offer more protection,  aegis, stability, and resolution.

Earth 2 needs to be cast instantly and have more visible visual effects. Also cause knock down before the cripple and bleeding.

No, you dont get it at all. All of what you propose is broken by default.

Fire 2 doesnt need vuln, we have plenty of vuln access already. And more burn? have you seen how dps for staff went up for like 10-20% from JUST adding a single stack of might on this skill? This would be op and gets nerfed asap.

Fire 3 doesnt need more damage, its a perfectly balanced skill atm, decent on hit dmg and condi dmg. (this and fire 2 buff made staff viable as a dps option last patch, so no need to buff it further). 

Fire 5 the problem is not damage/cast time, the problem is 1) unreliance (it can hit all meteors on a target or none at all), 2) dmg fall off for being hit (this needs to go). Knockdown on this skill would be op and broken. Anet needs to make this skill reliable and revert fall off nerfs. And then and only then look at dmg coefficents. 

 

Water is not about damage and it shouldnt be. The healing in water is nuts atm. AA heals a good amount, same goes for geyser. Combo it with water trait line (u always want this if you go for healing) and you get broken heal that can outheal any incounter just by AA.

Water 2 is fine, it hits hard, is a blast finisher (hello water fields), and has that vuln to it (the one u requested in fire remember?). Insta casting this would make it op beyond repair (just ask wvw guys how it feels to get hit with this).

Water 3 is in no universe a mini version of water 5. They function differently in every single way possible. This skill is a powerfull healing/ressing skill. Water 5 is NOT a healing skill, its a water field (hello my friend water 2) and a condi cleanse with some thrown in regen as a BONUS. If you spec into water you can get loads of condi cleanses out of this skill in a large radius (as people in wvw how it feels to have this). 

 

Air: sure, quickness, swiftness, alacrity, throw in some stab, superspeed and aegis here on every cast, wouldnt make it more op you know. "sarcasm"

Air needs a rework for sure, but not "add every single op buff in the game" kind of rework. To make air work they simply have to make AA projectile speed faster (like a lot faster) and thats it. Air 2 is a powerfull nuke atm (ask people in wvw how they feel to get hit with Air2-air/earth 3 combo). 

Air 3 doesnt need aoe increase. It has a big hitbox atm. The problem is the projectile speed. But honestly they just need to either up the projectile speed/accuracy OR make it a 360 radius aoe push around ele (although that would change skills purpose so idk if it is a good idea). 

 

Earth: Ah here is stab/aegis from my sarcastic Air version. Ele has a lot of protection generation via traits AND transmuting magnetic auras it just doesnt need more. As for aegis stab and reso, these boons are pretty strong and should not be easily availible on weapon skills (otherwise anet would need to compensate for this by nerfing staff skills even more, u want that?). 

Earth 2 is like water 2. Most arguments apply to both of them. Knockdown would be op in wvw. And this skill already hits like a truck and does decent condi dps (in pve). It already has a nice telegraph for counterplay. Did i need to even mention its a combo blast?

 

All staff needs atm is a bit of numbers adjust for dps purposes, projecile speed adjustments and a rework to MS inconsistency. Thats it. Staff is performing quite nice in pve since last patch and in wvw it is decent.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

1 hour ago, soulknight.9620 said:

No, you dont get it at all. All of what you propose is broken by default.

Fire 2 doesnt need vuln, we have plenty of vuln access already. And more burn? have you seen how dps for staff went up for like 10-20% from JUST adding a single stack of might on this skill? This would be op and gets nerfed asap.

Fire 3 doesnt need more damage, its a perfectly balanced skill atm, decent on hit dmg and condi dmg. (this and fire 2 buff made staff viable as a dps option last patch, so no need to buff it further). 

Fire 5 the problem is not damage/cast time, the problem is 1) unreliance (it can hit all meteors on a target or none at all), 2) dmg fall off for being hit (this needs to go). Knockdown on this skill would be op and broken. Anet needs to make this skill reliable and revert fall off nerfs. And then and only then look at dmg coefficents. 

 

Water is not about damage and it shouldnt be. The healing in water is nuts atm. AA heals a good amount, same goes for geyser. Combo it with water trait line (u always want this if you go for healing) and you get broken heal that can outheal any incounter just by AA.

Water 2 is fine, it hits hard, is a blast finisher (hello water fields), and has that vuln to it (the one u requested in fire remember?). Insta casting this would make it op beyond repair (just ask wvw guys how it feels to get hit with this).

Water 3 is in no universe a mini version of water 5. They function differently in every single way possible. This skill is a powerfull healing/ressing skill. Water 5 is NOT a healing skill, its a water field (hello my friend water 2) and a condi cleanse with some thrown in regen as a BONUS. If you spec into water you can get loads of condi cleanses out of this skill in a large radius (as people in wvw how it feels to have this). 

 

Air: sure, quickness, swiftness, alacrity, throw in some stab, superspeed and aegis here on every cast, wouldnt make it more op you know. "sarcasm"

Air needs a rework for sure, but not "add every single op buff in the game" kind of rework. To make air work they simply have to make AA projectile speed faster (like a lot faster) and thats it. Air 2 is a powerfull nuke atm (ask people in wvw how they feel to get hit with Air2-air/earth 3 combo). 

Air 3 doesnt need aoe increase. It has a big hitbox atm. The problem is the projectile speed. But honestly they just need to either up the projectile speed/accuracy OR make it a 360 radius aoe push around ele (although that would change skills purpose so idk if it is a good idea). 

 

Earth: Ah here is stab/aegis from my sarcastic Air version. Ele has a lot of protection generation via traits AND transmuting magnetic auras it just doesnt need more. As for aegis stab and reso, these boons are pretty strong and should not be easily availible on weapon skills (otherwise anet would need to compensate for this by nerfing staff skills even more, u want that?). 

Earth 2 is like water 2. Most arguments apply to both of them. Knockdown would be op in wvw. And this skill already hits like a truck and does decent condi dps (in pve). It already has a nice telegraph for counterplay. Did i need to even mention its a combo blast?

 

All staff needs atm is a bit of numbers adjust for dps purposes, projecile speed adjustments and a rework to MS inconsistency. Thats it. Staff is performing quite nice in pve since last patch and in wvw it is decent.

Everyone else is asking for staff buffs.

That's what the OP is about.

99% of replies agree. 

Then here you come along and disagree. 

 

I wonder why with everyone that replied, you felt the need to quote/reply to me?

Anyways, doesn't matter.

 

I gave up reading your "sarcastic" post, as you repeated several times.

I don't think that you trying to make a mockery of my post entitles you to be taken seriously or my time. But I'll indulge you nevertheless, at least for a few more minutes of my time.

 

Just a few examples

Staff fire 5 misses at least 80% of hits. It's easily dodged.

Doesn't do enough damage to compensate the casting time and the caster's vulnerable position to interrupts, damage, etc...

So your point isn't valid.

 

Water ice spike takes way too long to take effect.

Sarcasm back at you. WvW players don't never get hit by it.

They dodge it every single time or has no effect whatsoever. Especially on zergs.

And don't try argue with me about WvW. I play it every single day for many hours.

So your statements about WvW are false as far as I'm concerned.

 

Most of your contradictions to my suggestions are pure nonsense. 

Another example you gave was fire lava font.

The damage only occurs a second or two after cast animation.

Easily dodged. You can see it appearing before it does anything at all.

Hence why my suggestion that it needs to cripple players first before they have time to dodge.

How can you possibly oppose this?

 

You apparently don't play WvW or elementalist half as much as you claim to do.

Staff in WvW is a great support weapon only IF you time every single cast right, which is extremely hard to do due to its lenghty cast times in most skills.

Therefore needs either cast timing to be sped up or damage increase.

 

In pve is not much different in high end content.

All those mediocre and "sarcastic" changes you suggested could work for low end moas in starting areas, but if you try doing the final area before your final battle with Balthazar, you have a very hard time soloing it.

Such as stab on ele staff?

Stab? Superpeed? On staff?

You'd be left behind trying to cast fire 5.

Most of your skills would become useless, and the skills that are instant cast are few and far between. Your rotation would not be fast enough to do anything significant in a stab.

Ele staff is not the choice for a stab by any stretch of the imagination. 

 

Ele staff is dependant of hiding behind a crowd of friends and time every cast right on endgame and high end content.

I don't necessarily have a problem with this directly, but you trying to dismiss my suggestions by making a mockery out of it I do have a problem with.

Then suggest much worse changes like superspeed for a wvw stab using staff on ele.

You cannot possibly expect me to take you seriously. 

 

You can't argue with someone who does WvW a lot and has been playing elementalists for a very long time.

Elementalist was my first created character in this game and soled almost everything with it.

But you cannot possibly say that is fine in WvW and high end content by trying to mock my suggestions and making things up.

I've done a lot of WvW with ele staff and most of the things you implied are simply just not true.

A zerg isn't going to stay still the whole time and wait for you to cast on them.

You obviously have no xp in wvw and just blatantly made things up to try make your points valid and dismiss mine.

 

Again, ele staff is hard to master especially in wvw. Changes have to be made... and don't get caught by enemy roamers in wvw while using staff; especially thieves, any heavy class, rangers, and basically just about any other class.

Even a ele scepter/dagger will have no trouble killing you.

Edited October 30, 2022 by SoulGuardian.6203

[soulknight.9620]

20 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Everyone else is asking for staff buffs.

That's what the OP is about.

99% of replies agree. 

Then here you come along and disagree. 

 

I wonder why with everyone that replied, you felt the need to quote/reply to me?

Anyways, doesn't matter.

I will gladly answer that. There is no doubt that staff needs more work from anet. Majority agrees to that. But there is also a thing that majority understands that there is no need for making staff broken by default with OP changes that wouldnt even pass the initial balance check. And if by any means they would the nerfs compensating this would be so major that staff becomes less playable then it is now. Since the majority proposes mild changes that could actually make staff balanced i have no problem with it. But ur post suggested making staff as imbalanced as it could possibly be. Thats why i commented on ur post and went point by point in showing how it wouldnt work at all. 

This is a forum u know, if you post something, people may react to it, thats how discussions work. No need to take it personally. 

20 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

I gave up reading your "sarcastic" post, as you repeated several times.

I don't think that you trying to make a mockery of my post entitles you to be taken seriously or my time. But I'll indulge you nevertheless, at least for a few more minutes of my time.

So you are answering me without reading my arguments? Ok, lets see how it goes. 

 

20 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Just a few examples

Staff fire 5 misses at least 80% of hits. It's easily dodged.

Doesn't do enough damage to compensate the casting time and the caster's vulnerable position to interrupts, damage, etc...

So your point isn't valid.

So you are basically agreeing with the things i said without agreeing to it? 
Just a reminder: "Fire 5 the problem is not damage/cast time, the problem is 1) unreliance (it can hit all meteors on a target or none at all), 2) dmg fall off for being hit (this needs to go). Knockdown on this skill would be op and broken. Anet needs to make this skill reliable and revert fall off nerfs. And then and only then look at dmg coefficents. "
 

20 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Water ice spike takes way too long to take effect.

Sarcasm back at you. WvW players don't never get hit by it.

They dodge it every single time or has no effect whatsoever. Especially on zergs.

And don't try argue with me about WvW. I play it every single day for many hours.

So your statements about WvW are false as far as I'm concerned.

So what u are saying is that you cant hit people with it? Then again a lot of people can. Its quite easy if you know how to predict where enemy blob is moving (which is the basics of wvw). The argument that u cant hit people with a skill is not valid to make drastic changes like instant cast/instant fall. Have you ever heard of counterplay? Every skill should have a counterplay to it. The counterplay to this one is dodging/moving out of its range. If this skill wouldnt have cast time/fall time it would be doing 8-12k dmg on 5 targets in like sec with from range of 1200. Surely that wouldnt make it op? Lets ask rev hammer 2 why it has been nerfed?

20 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Most of your contradictions to my suggestions are pure nonsense. 

Another example you gave was fire lava font.

The damage only occurs a second or two after cast animation.

Easily dodged. You can see it appearing before it does anything at all.

Hence why my suggestion that it needs to cripple players first before they have time to dodge.

How can you possibly oppose this?

Ill try. We have to take into consideration that this skill has a different purpose in pve and wvw. In pve you usually use it in fire dps rotation on stationary targets. That means most of its dmg will land. The cast time of this skill is low, it stacks bonus from fire Persisting Flames trait and it does decent dps for a low cast time skill. So no problems here. Some QoL is welcome here, but not a "add longer duration of burn and vulnerability and crippling or slow" cause that would overload this skill with unneaded mechanics like vulnerability (which we can already cap quite easily). 
As for wvw. Counterplay? This skill is a fast casting aoe skill that does somewhat mediocre dps in wvw, but it still stacks Persisting Flames and it can only be dodged by fighting in a duel or small scale fights. For big blob fights the things i described for water 2 still apply - predict where the blob is moving  - cast it there. I dont actually know why i have to explain this to a veteran wvw player but ok. Every other class does the same, ask scourges how they put their shades, i dont think it differes that much. 
 

20 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

You apparently don't play WvW or elementalist half as much as you claim to do.

Staff in WvW is a great support weapon only IF you time every single cast right, which is extremely hard to do due to its lenghty cast times in most skills.

Therefore needs either cast timing to be sped up or damage increase.

Sure, never seen wvw in my life. I just like to pretend i do. You got me. Bought my 2 coalescences and wvw exclusive skins from a passing by skritt (i hate skritt). 

Have you tried weaver with staff or catalyst? The there are skills that hit hard on staff, like water 2, earth 2, fire 5 (just look at a dps meter when you hit a blob with it), fireballs for 5-7k? Im not even goint to start a discussion on weaver double skill since a few combos could delete a non heave armor user in 2 casts (hi air-earth 3 - air 2 combo). Or air-fire 3 (which is hard to hit, but if you do...). And you know what makes it even more powerfull? most of them are aoe skills that can hit up to 5 people. And the only counterplay to this is - dodging/moving/positioning. So yeah this skill have to be hard to land otherwise it would be op. 

And no staff is not great if you time EVERY single cast right, it is great if you land some of the casts right. Which is a l2p issue. Like i said possitioning and prediction is ur friend. Staff is an aoe weapon it excels in large scale fights. Dont try to fight 1v1 or 5v5 unless u are Solemn. 

21 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

In pve is not much different in high end content.

All those mediocre and "sarcastic" changes you suggested could work for low end moas in starting areas, but if you try doing the final area before your final battle with Balthazar, you have a very hard time soloing it.

Such as stab on ele staff?

Stab? Superpeed? On staff?

You'd be left behind trying to cast fire 5.

Most of your skills would become useless, and the skills that are instant cast are few and far between. Your rotation would not be fast enough to do anything significant in a stab.

Ele staff is not the choice for a stab by any stretch of the imagination. 

As Fennec how staff underperforms in high end content. 36-40k dps depending on a target hitbox is not "mediocre". Sure it is not meta, but it is viable for some raid encounters, t4(and cm) fracs, strikes. But yeah you need to know how to play it. Im no way near Fennec when it comes to mastery of ele, but i can do 33k dps on small target golem any day. So it is still viable for me. If you cant master it - put some work to it. It only took me an hour to reach this result when patch hit. 

As for the changes. A single stack of burn on fire 2, a bit of power dmg boost to fire 3, and a bit of a buff to earth 5 power dmg made condi staff weaver a viable pick for dps. You seem to not understand how fragile is the balancing of ele. A single stack of burn can be the difference between "nerf it into oblivion its op" and "its fine". Thats why i prefer mild changes so there wouldnt be any nerfs after. 

Stab/superspeed on staff? where did i propose that? Ah i remember "I gave up reading your "sarcastic" post, as you repeated several times.". Reading... yeah... 

By the way staff ele can have superspeed already, but yeah, i didnt propose that. 

You were the one that proposed stab on a staff: "Earth needs to offer more protection,  aegis, stability, and resolution."
So whats ur problem with stability (aka stab)? How does it impact cast time of fire 5? How would it make my skills useless? And how would stab make my rotation not be fast enough "in a stab"? 

"Ele staff is not the choice for a stab by any stretch of the imagination. " But... you... were... the one... saying... that earth needed stability... Now im confused. Are you agreeing with me without agreeing with me again? 

As for soloing final battle with balthazar? Did you know this enounter is not tough at all? Try soloing something challenging like a legendary bounty for a change. And yes you can easily do it with cele staff weaver/tempest. Like any other soloable content. 

 

21 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Ele staff is dependant of hiding behind a crowd of friends and time every cast right on endgame and high end content.

Excuse me? Hiding behind a crowd of friends? Am i playing different kind of high end content? Raids/frac cms/strike cms? You dont "hide". You stack, boon up, do mechnics and do dps. Ur survivability (like any other glass dps) is your healers job unless u fail mechanics. Thats it. You must be doing something wrong if you "hide behind a crowd of friends". 

21 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

You can't argue with someone who does WvW a lot and has been playing elementalists for a very long time.

Elementalist was my first created character in this game and soled almost everything with it.

But you cannot possibly say that is fine in WvW and high end content by trying to mock my suggestions and making things up.

I've done a lot of WvW with ele staff and most of the things you implied are simply just not true.

A zerg isn't going to stay still the whole time and wait for you to cast on them.

You obviously have no xp in wvw and just blatantly made things up to try make your points valid and dismiss mine.

First of all, saying "ive been playing wvw", "my first created character", "ive soloed almost everything" doesnt make ur arguments strong. Thats just plain logic. 

Secondly, noone mocked ur suggestions. This is a forum where anyone can post their opinion on the topic. You posted urs, i posted mine. The fact that i dissagree with you doesnt mean that i "mock" ur suggestions. Ive stated my arguments thats all. 

Thirdly, the fact that u had a different experience than me or other people doesnt make ur arguments strong too. Its subjective. 

Fourthly, ur attempts to mark me as "no xp in wvw" isnt going to help ur arguments too. If you have something to say on the subject, then state ur arguments, or counterarguments to my statements. Thats how discussions work. 

Fifthly, i didnt insult you, i didnt call you "incompetent", "having 0 xp in wvw" etc a single time. If you post stuff on a forum be ready for criticism. 

21 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Again, ele staff is hard to master especially in wvw. Changes have to be made... and don't get caught by enemy roamers in wvw while using staff; especially thieves, any heavy class, rangers, and basically just about any other class.

Even a ele scepter/dagger will have no trouble killing you.

So agreeing without agreeing again? Thats what i said, staff needs changes. But carefull ones, not the OP ones like u proposed. I never did say that staff is perfect and has no issues (like really not a single ele player would say this). 

Staff ele in wvw is a group fighter (a zerg fighter if you will), its obvious that it cant handle roamers and build that are dedicated for roaming. 

[SoulGuardian.6203]

50 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

I will gladly answer that. There is no doubt that staff needs more work from anet. Majority agrees to that. But there is also a thing that majority understands that there is no need for making staff broken by default with OP changes that wouldnt even pass the initial balance check. And if by any means they would the nerfs compensating this would be so major that staff becomes less playable then it is now. Since the majority proposes mild changes that could actually make staff balanced i have no problem with it. But ur post suggested making staff as imbalanced as it could possibly be. Thats why i commented on ur post and went point by point in showing how it wouldnt work at all. 

This is a forum u know, if you post something, people may react to it, thats how discussions work. No need to take it personally. 

So you are answering me without reading my arguments? Ok, lets see how it goes. 

No need to be rude either.

I think because you though that we share a similar name somehow gives you a green card to be arrogant and disrespectful. 

Yes it is a public forums, but there are rules.

Highlighting someone for ridicule is one of them.

Maybe you ought to learn a little humility instead of patronising me with your replies.

 

Let's see how it goes.

Yes we shall.

 

50 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

 

So you are basically agreeing with the things i said without agreeing to it? 
Just a reminder: "Fire 5 the problem is not damage/cast time, the problem is 1) unreliance (it can hit all meteors on a target or none at all), 2) dmg fall off for being hit (this needs to go). Knockdown on this skill would be op and broken. Anet needs to make this skill reliable and revert fall off nerfs. And then and only then look at dmg coefficents. "

This skill is too unreliable indeed.

I suggested initial knockdown as an idea from GW1 original meteor shower.

The casting time and casters vulnerable position while performing the cast does makes it too much of a hit or miss gamble.

Adding more damage would be better than nothing, but a faster cast with more hit probability or knockdown would make it more reliable, and I don't agree that would make it OP at all. 

More damage would but still remaining unreliable.

50 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

So what u are saying is that you cant hit people with it?

That's right.

Most of the time in WvW people simply dodge it, unless they have been knocked down or immobilised.

It's even worse in PvP.

50 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Then again a lot of people can. Its quite easy if you know how to predict where enemy blob is moving (which is the basics of wvw).

This is utter nonsense, and you know it.

50 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

The argument that u cant hit people with a skill is not valid to make drastic changes like instant cast/instant fall. Have you ever heard of counterplay? Every skill should have a counterplay to it. The counterplay to this one is dodging/moving out of its range. If this skill wouldnt have cast time/fall time it would be doing 8-12k dmg on 5 targets in like sec with from range of 1200. Surely that wouldnt make it op? Lets ask rev hammer 2 why it has been nerfed?

This isn't about rev.

The point is very valid and factual.

Every real WvW player knows this.

It's fact.

50 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Ill try. We have to take into consideration that this skill has a different purpose in pve and wvw. In pve you usually use it in fire dps rotation on stationary targets.

What stationery target?

Only ranger Npcs stay stationery in WvW.

Whst are you on about?

50 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

That means most of its dmg will land.

Wrong

50 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

The cast time of this skill is low, it stacks bonus from fire Persisting Flames trait and it does decent dps for a low cast time skill. So no problems here.

You cannot possibly be serious about these statements and hope that any real elementalists will just turn a blind eye to it.

50 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Some QoL is welcome here, but not a "add longer duration of burn and vulnerability and crippling or slow" cause that would overload this skill with unneaded mechanics like vulnerability (which we can already cap quite easily). 

Are we still talking about the same skill?

50 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

As for wvw. Counterplay? This skill is a fast casting aoe skill that does somewhat mediocre dps in wvw, but it still stacks Persisting Flames and it can only be dodged by fighting in a duel or small scale fights. For big blob fights the things i described for water 2 still apply - predict where the blob is moving  - cast it there. I dont actually know why i have to explain this to a veteran wvw player but ok. Every other class does the same, ask scourges how they put their shades, i dont think it differes that much. 

You are comparing scourges sand wells that are instant cast to most of eles staff skills that only activate after a few seconds delay like ice spike, and staff 5 that, again places the caster in a very vulnerable position while casting it, and the results are no where near optimal to compensate those two factors.

 

You keep denying that in WvW is hard to hit any moving targets with ele staff skills that take too long to activate.

You are certainly not being truthful.

Any real wvw player knows it.

 

The only time you can really hit a crowd is at confined places, such as inside a tower, keep or SM whilst the enemy zerg is trying to hold and capture the structure. 

Even then they will keep moving wherever possible and they will chase you and kill you.

Stop trying to deny these facts.

50 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

 

Sure, never seen wvw in my life. I just like to pretend i do. You got me. Bought my 2 coalescences and wvw exclusive skins from a passing by skritt (i hate skritt). 

Have you tried weaver with staff or catalyst? The there are skills that hit hard on staff, like water 2, earth 2, fire 5 (just look at a dps meter when you hit a blob with it), fireballs for 5-7k? Im not even goint to start a discussion on weaver double skill since a few combos could delete a non heave armor user in 2 casts (hi air-earth 3 - air 2 combo). Or air-fire 3 (which is hard to hit, but if you do...). And you know what makes it even more powerfull? most of them are aoe skills that can hit up to 5 people. And the only counterplay to this is - dodging/moving/positioning. So yeah this skill have to be hard to land otherwise it would be op. 

Skills like ice spike and erruption do not cause enough damage or conditions to justify the cast delay time.

Another fact you keep denying.

I'm beggining to question what kind of elementalist are you?

50 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

And no staff is not great if you time EVERY single cast right, it is great if you land some of the casts right. Which is a l2p issue. Like i said possitioning and prediction is ur friend. Staff is an aoe weapon it excels in large scale fights. Dont try to fight 1v1 or 5v5 unless u are Solemn. 

As Fennec how staff underperforms in high end content. 36-40k dps depending on a target hitbox is not "mediocre". Sure it is not meta, but it is viable for some raid encounters, t4(and cm) fracs, strikes. But yeah you need to know how to play it. Im no way near Fennec when it comes to mastery of ele, but i can do 33k dps on small target golem any day. So it is still viable for me. If you cant master it - put some work to it.

And yet being arrogant again.

What makes you think thst you are better than anybody here as an elementalist? 

I can give you the names of at least two or three most popular commanders in WvW and they will all tell you how unreliable ele staff is in wvw and even worse in pvp.

Here you are with patronising someone who already said to you has been an elementalist for a very long time and done almost every bit of content with it.

The only thing I didn't play yet are Raids.

 

50 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

It only took me an hour to reach this result when patch hit. 

As for the changes. A single stack of burn on fire 2, a bit of power dmg boost to fire 3, and a bit of a buff to earth 5 power dmg made condi staff weaver a viable pick for dps. You seem to not understand how fragile is the balancing of ele. A single stack of burn can be the difference between "nerf it into oblivion its op" and "its fine". Thats why i prefer mild changes so there wouldnt be any nerfs after. 

Weaver does tremendous damage compared to core staff.

Are you saying that sword should be nerfed?

You don't seem like a legit ele to me pal.

You don't want to accept that the staff needs major improvements. 

You want to fine tune a staff just by adding a small percentage of dps but then say it would be op, or I don't really get what you're saying.

You're not being clear and are contradicting yourself at every turn.

This happens when you're not being honest and truthful.

 

 

50 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Stab/superspeed on staff? where did i propose that? Ah i remember "I gave up reading your "sarcastic" post, as you repeated several times.". Reading... yeah... 

By the way staff ele can have superspeed already, but yeah, i didnt propose that. 

You were the one that proposed stab on a staff: "

Wrong. I did not purpose stab on staff.

You were patronising me and I proved to  you that you are contradicting yourself by trying to prove that staff is a reliable weapon in WvW and pvp.

I showed you that it's not, but you didn't seem to understand that.

50 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Earth needs to offer more protection,  aegis, stability, and resolution."
So whats ur problem with stability (aka stab)? How does it impact cast time of fire 5? How would it make my skills useless? And how would stab make my rotation not be fast enough "in a stab"? 

At this point, you are already starting to be arrogantly patronising and I think I'm going to leave it at that.

I'll just skip to the end for a final word, and we're done.

50 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

"Ele staff is not the choice for a stab by any stretch of the imagination. " But... you... were... the one... saying... that earth needed stability... Now im confused. Are you agreeing with me without agreeing with me again? 

As for soloing final battle with balthazar? Did you know this enounter is not tough at all? Try soloing something challenging like a legendary bounty for a change. And yes you can easily do it with cele staff weaver/tempest. Like any other soloable content. 

 

Excuse me? Hiding behind a crowd of friends? Am i playing different kind of high end content? Raids/frac cms/strike cms? You dont "hide". You stack, boon up, do mechnics and do dps. Ur survivability (like any other glass dps) is your healers job unless u fail mechanics. Thats it. You must be doing something wrong if you "hide behind a crowd of friends". 

First of all, saying "ive been playing wvw", "my first created character", "ive soloed almost everything" doesnt make ur arguments strong. Thats just plain logic. 

Secondly, noone mocked ur suggestions. This is a forum where anyone can post their opinion on the topic. You posted urs, i posted mine. The fact that i dissagree with you doesnt mean that i "mock" ur suggestions. Ive stated my arguments thats all. 

Thirdly, the fact that u had a different experience than me or other people doesnt make ur arguments strong too. Its subjective. 

Fourthly, ur attempts to mark me as "no xp in wvw" isnt going to help ur arguments too. If you have something to say on the subject, then state ur arguments, or counterarguments to my statements. Thats how discussions work. 

Fifthly, i didnt insult you, i didnt call you "incompetent", "having 0 xp in wvw" etc a single time. If you post stuff on a forum be ready for criticism. 

So agreeing without agreeing again? Thats what i said, staff needs changes. But carefull ones, not the OP ones like u proposed. I never did say that staff is perfect and has no issues (like really not a single ele player would say this). 

Staff ele in wvw is a group fighter (a zerg fighter if you will), its obvious that it cant handle roamers and build that are dedicated for roaming. 

Alright.

You obviously don't deserve attention if you're going to be arrogant and patronising all the time.

If you want to continue this discussion, do so in a more polite manner and don't make things personal.

Learn a little humility and honesty if you want people to take you seriously. 

 

Your typing is messy, confusing, and generally just all over the place.

 

I still didn't quite grasp what your points were, other than a really intense attitude towards staff buffs.

You're worried that if ANet improves ele staff in some ways, they'll have to nerf it in other ways.

So you just want the staff to stay as it is right now, or do it your way, which wasn't quite clear, since you asked for a tiny dps increase but then also stated it would be overpowered.

You typed a lot, but nothing that you did type, at any point, looked like anything logical, or coherent. 

 

One thing I do say.

Let's meet in WvW, PvP, or somewhere, and you are going to show me those ele staff talents of yours.

Amaze me.