My biggest "Pain point" with WvW atm

[AlCapwnd.7834]

2 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

I like how it's always subpar people with no kps who talk up PVE's difficulty in this game...

While i agree with your comment (mostly) phrasing it like that is one of the main reasons I and others never wanted to get into Raids. However, our WvW guild has some really good PVE Raiders who helped me and some others with Raid content. Raids are not as hard as they make them out to be. But when learning them you 100% have to know the mechanics (watch and master a video for your class and specific raid) OR join a discord and be in coms and listen to someone that explains it.

[Zok.4956]

6 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Another one without PvE kps touting PvE...my prediction above was eerily accurate.

Yes, in WvW you need 17.5 hours of semi active gameplay vs 2 hours of moving your character and gg'ing 25 times in PvE. I wonder which one is more active. I mean, even if you do play raids and don't get carried, with an equivalent amount of time investment as the one required in WvW you should achieve a level of proficiency with your PvE rotations to be able to speed clear any boss in any wing. 

What exactely is your point in writing this as a response to my text/post? 

[Zekent.3652]

These people are so against rewards lmao, despite PvE open world giving you more rewards with even less effort, and ANet removing the outnumbered rewards
 

 

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

16 minutes ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

These people are so against rewards lmao, despite PvE open world giving you more rewards with even less effort, and ANet removing the outnumbered rewards
 

 

Show us where OW PvE can get Legendary Armor for less effort 🤣

[Xenesis.6389]

6 minutes ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

These people are so against rewards lmao, despite PvE open world giving you more rewards with even less effort, and ANet removing the outnumbered rewards

Yet those same people come to wvw because it's easier to get it's legendaries than raiding, and STILL complain to try and get it with even less effort.

No one is against rewards, but players like me are against flybynight pve players who don't actually give two kittens about the game mode, but want to pillage it for the rewards with even less effort than the actual wvw players put in. We also don't want to turn wvw into some eotm-ktrain-pve-fest, the camping keeps for bags is already dumb enough as it is, or promote stacking for wins more than it already is, so the type of rewards and how often it's handed out needs to be controlled.

If you don't understand this, or confuse emote this post, then you don't care about wvw either.

 

Go complain about raids, or ask for an OW upgrade instead, if you can't stand half afking your time for wvw legendaries already.

[Zekent.3652]

3 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Yet those same people come to wvw because it's easier to get it's legendaries than raiding, and STILL complain to try and get it with even less effort.

As a person that does PvE raids and WvW , i'll never understand this, and why PvE heavy legendary armor is far better in design than WvW armor "because it's easier", no, raids are not that hard, it's just a coordination thing, and the "hard" fights like Dhuum, are not even needed for PvE legendary armor.

 

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

4 minutes ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

As a person that does PvE raids and WvW , i'll never understand this, and why PvE heavy legendary armor is far better in design than WvW armor "because it's easier", no, raids are not that hard, it's just a coordination thing, and the "hard" fights like Dhuum, are not even needed for PvE legendary armor.

 

It’s called amount of effort, WvW legendary takes minimal effort vs Raiding

[Xenesis.6389]

1 minute ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

As a person that does PvE raids and WvW , i'll never understand this, and why PvE heavy legendary armor is far better in design than WvW armor "because it's easier", no, raids are not that hard, it's just a coordination thing, and the "hard" fights like Dhuum, are not even needed for PvE legendary armor.

🤷‍♂️

Tell that to them, we keep getting threads every month from newbies trying to get tickets faster for the legendaries while they sit afk watching netflix in between flipping a camp every 10 mins.

🤷‍♂️

[Daredevil.2745]

Your best reward is self-satifaction and pride when your server wins the matchup, erverything that wvw players need is exotic armor with default skins and meta build to dominate

Edited November 1, 2022 by Daredevil.2745

[ArchonWing.9480]

17 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

🤷‍♂️

Tell that to them, we keep getting threads every month from newbies trying to get tickets faster for the legendaries while they sit afk watching netflix in between flipping a camp every 10 mins.

🤷‍♂️

Everything is hard if you're bad at the game. 😉Though I suppose to a player that is good at both, then raids will always win as an option. I don't think games should be balanced around bad players because if they refuse to play the game, it doesn't really matter what the game is.

Btw, I don't think newbies are making these complaints, because they're not the ones aiming for legendaries. It's usually by long term players that have failed to git gud by any extent. The reason is self evident because otherwise they would have understood how the gear system works by now. That is, legendary isn't actually better than ascended in most practical scenarios (even considering how templates work). You can't have a rational argument with those people, nor would anyone sane think those kinds of people that can't grasp that concept would be able to take advantage of any niche scenario that requires legendaries.

Heck, even players that cry about losing because they only have exotic are better than this. (though only slightly)

It would be like trying to argue balance with someone that doesn't even understand how a class's skills work and they have to check the wiki. Hopefully nobody like that gets on the balance team. Oh wait.

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Daredevil.2745]

1 minute ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I don't think games should be balanced around bad players because if they refuse to play the game, it doesn't really matter what the game is.

GW2 has been balanced around bad players since launch in 2012, it was designed as a casual game for casual=bad=low skilled players

[kash.9213]

18 minutes ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

As a person that does PvE raids and WvW , i'll never understand this, and why PvE heavy legendary armor is far better in design than WvW armor "because it's easier", no, raids are not that hard, it's just a coordination thing, and the "hard" fights like Dhuum, are not even needed for PvE legendary armor.

 

Part of the reason for this dynamic of pve players coming to WvW for an easier Legendary grab might have to do with the personalities involved that people will have to interact with and navigate around. There's a lot of warranted anxiety involved for a lot of people even at the early point of asking around about raids and encounters and then all the way through the rest of the experience. And then they have to keep going back regardless of how it went. 

As much as people mention Team Chat as some kind of hive of scum and villainy, WvW is pretty chill, even when things go bad. Of course people want to grind stuff out here if they can, regardless of their complaining. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

14 minutes ago, Daredevil.2745 said:

GW2 has been balanced around bad players since launch in 2012, it was designed as a casual game for casual=bad=low skilled players

I know that. It's just that when people want just <10% of the game to not be like that, there's an uproar.

12 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

Part of the reason for this dynamic of pve players coming to WvW for an easier Legendary grab might have to do with the personalities involved that people will have to interact with and navigate around. There's a lot of warranted anxiety involved for a lot of people even at the early point of asking around about raids and encounters and then all the way through the rest of the experience. And then they have to keep going back regardless of how it went. 

As much as people mention Team Chat as some kind of hive of scum and villainy, WvW is pretty chill, even when things go bad. Of course people want to grind stuff out here if they can, regardless of their complaining. 

It's roughly even IMO. It's just that it's relatively apparent in a raid if someone doesn't know what they're doing and the slot is significantly more valuable relatively speaking.

Raid toxicity really does exist and it can be bad, but I think it's not necessarily even that much worse than open world where people freak out over doing anything wrong during meta events.

But then again it gets a bit more subjective, and WvW has no imaginary dictator that can arbitrarily boot you out. You can also come and leave as you please, so that is closer to what the most of the game is geared towards.

The LFG system is also very w/e, and you don't need to bother with that in WvW.

Edited November 1, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Karagee.6830]

3 hours ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

It’s called amount of effort, WvW legendary takes minimal effort vs Raiding

Raiding can be fully carried (meaning you don't even have to play). And if you do play, the weekly time investment in PvE is probably around 1/5 (but will be much less than that for good groups) of the investment required in WvW.  Once you compound that with the fact you PvE requires sligthly more than 1/4 of the weeks required for WvW, then you quickly realise that the time investment for PvE of around 1/20 of the time investment for WvW

Edited November 1, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Karagee.6830]

10 hours ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

You’re making a lot of assumptions there but you should read what I actually wrote.

Just because you choose to fight others doesn’t mean you are required to do so and that the ability to acquire legendaries by essentially afk’ing doesn’t exist, and that it takes next to zero effort involved and that doesn’t even include all of the collections outside of raid content needed to acquire PvE legendaries.

Raids require you to gear up your character with proper gear, learn all the boss mechanics, learn your classes rotation, practice you classes rotation, communicate with other players, coordinate with other players, and actually complete content, complete collections etc. versus log into WvW and smack some Dolyaks and Sentries in what ever gear you’re  wearing solo. 

Recap: 

 

You don’t have to fight other players at all you can literally avoid them all and only hit the easiest of PvE mobs to acquire WvW legendaries in masterwork/rare gear with next to zero effort.

Again time doesn’t equal effort.

This is wrong. You can just gg for every single LI you need. <- This is why the PvE set is the only set that has a collection that requires you to be alive to obtain some of the items (and they still can be cheesed, not to mention you now also have emboldened lol). 

Time investment definitely equals effort. In that time you can make tons of gold and buy your PvE set doing even less effort OR become a speedrunner in PvE raids. You cannot do that in PvP or WvW.

Also killing random mobs will not give you nearly enough participation. If you want to semi-afk you will need to flip a camp roughly every 10 minutes.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Karagee.6830]

5 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

What exactely is your point in writing this as a response to my text/post? 

The point is that if you want to go down that path about WvW requiring only to flip a camp every 10 minutes, then you need to consider and accept that you can BUY or get fully CARRIED to your PvE armor for NO effort whatsoever. No effort and roughly 1/20th of the time investment.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

6 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

This is wrong. You can just gg for every single LI you need. <- This is why the PvE set is the only set that has a collection that requires you to be alive to obtain some of the items (and they still can be cheesed, not to mention you now also have emboldened lol). 

Time investment definitely equals effort. In that time you can make tons of gold and buy your PvE set doing even less effort OR become a speedrunner in PvE raids. You cannot do that in PvP or WvW.

Also killing random mobs will not give you nearly enough participation. If you want to semi-afk you will need to flip a camp roughly every 10 minutes.

Sorry but time doesn’t equal effort the only effort is building up participation to tier 6 which doesn’t take long and takes minimal effort then you semi afk to get the to maintain the tier 6 participation. 
 

gg’ing every fight would also make it take exponentially longer than semi afking so that doesn’t even help your case since you have to beat bosses to even unlock the legendaries aka more effort than anything for the WvW legendary armor…you’re just proving my point even more…

[Karagee.6830]

19 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

Sorry but time doesn’t equal effort the only effort is building up participation to tier 6 which doesn’t take long and takes minimal effort then you semi afk to get the to maintain the tier 6 participation. 
 

gg’ing every fight would also make it take exponentially longer than semi afking so that doesn’t even help your case since you have to beat bosses to even unlock the legendaries aka more effort than anything for the WvW legendary armor…you’re just proving my point even more…

wut? Speedrunners will clear all wings with an average of around 15 minutes per wing (I'm being generous here). Let's say the average is 25 minutes per wing in 9 players (I'm being exceptionally generous). That's less than 3 hours/week compared to 17+.

There are only a couple of encounters where you actually need to be alive for the collection: Cairn, MO and Deimos. Cairn and MO have been done in under 1m by many guilds and Deimos is in the low 2m. Cairn is likely the harder to do but in just over 1 minute you probably just need to do 2 greens. On Deimos you can probably just sit in the middle where the bubble for Mind Crush spawns as long as you have an oil kiter and Saul is cc'd/killed fast enough.

So no there is no effort really, everything can be carried and 99% of it is a simple matter of moving your character and gg'ing.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

3 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

wut? Speedrunners will clear all wings with an average of around 15 minutes per wing (I'm being generous here). Let's say the average is 25 minutes per wing in 9 players (I'm being exceptionally generous). That's less than 3 hours/week compared to 17+.

There are only a couple of encounters where you actually need to be alive for the collection: Cairn, MO and Deimos. Cairn and MO have been done in under 1m by many guilds and Deimos is in the low 2m. Cairn is likely the harder to do but in just over 1 minute you probably just need to do 2 greens. On Deimos you can probably just sit in the middle where the bubble for Mind Crush spawns as long as you have an oil kiter and Saul is cc'd/killed fast enough.

So no there is no effort really, everything can be carried and 99% of it is a simple matter of moving your character and gg'ing.

Yeah and it took those players more effort to get to that skill level of raiding which trumps anything to acquire WvW legendaries since all you have to do is smack dolyaks, guards and sentries(hint that not a lot of effort) 

Also for Raid legendaries a single player is already relying on 9 other players to begin with to even achieve their armor sooo nothing changes there… you are grasping at non existent straws and you are proving my point even further…. 
 

 

[Zok.4956]

1 hour ago, Karagee.6830 said:

The point is that if you want to go down that path about WvW requiring only to flip a camp every 10 minutes,

I don't need to go down any path. It is a fact that a player could just flip camps to get his participation up to get max pips/tickets for his legy WvW armor. Would it be fun? Not for me. Did I do this for my legy armor? No. Do I see semi-afk pip farmers in WvW? Yes, often.

 

1 hour ago, Karagee.6830 said:

then you need to consider and accept that you can BUY or get fully CARRIED to your PvE armor for NO effort whatsoever. No effort and roughly 1/20th of the time investment.

Why should I consider this? I did not compare WvW-armor with raid-armor. I just wrote about WvW and corrected a wrong statement.

And: What you write is wrong. Sure, a player could buy a lot of raid runs or get carriered through raids. But that would not be enough for getting the raid armor. A player has to play himself for some of the archievements that are required for the raid-armor.

And even if  we hypothesize that a player could get the raid-armor just with getting carried through raids (and not getting kicked when he does not perform ...)  ... so what. It would not change anything I wrote about semi-afk pip/ticket farming in WvW.

[Jitters.9401]

21 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

It feels more like you don't understand how participation clocks, ticks and pips work.

LoL

Your game play may be to log in and do as little as possible for minimum rewards. Your choice. Good for you. 

[Jitters.9401]

9 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

WvW requiring only to flip a camp every 10 minutes

Lol

 

You guys think that everyone is like you and can play for hours at end. Doesn't work that way. Some of us have very limited play time so we make the best of it which means being continuously active.

[Karagee.6830]

49 minutes ago, Jitters.9401 said:

Lol

 

You guys think that everyone is like you and can play for hours at end. Doesn't work that way. Some of us have very limited play time so we make the best of it which means being continuously active.

Oh I totally agree with you, you know. And I have all wvw sets, so just we're all on the same page here.

[Karagee.6830]

10 hours ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

Yeah and it took those players more effort to get to that skill level of raiding which trumps anything to acquire WvW legendaries since all you have to do is smack dolyaks, guards and sentries(hint that not a lot of effort) 

Also for Raid legendaries a single player is already relying on 9 other players to begin with to even achieve their armor sooo nothing changes there… you are grasping at non existent straws and you are proving my point even further…. 
 

 

As I said above if you invested 18 hours per week, you too should become a speedrunner.

It's very common to people to get carried in PvE, both in raids and fractals. I have done fractal CMs with 2 alt accounts (so in 3 and even 2 people) many times and raids are the same exact story. If you are ignorant (in the sense that you don't know about it or choose to ignore it) of this reality it's really your problem, not mine.

You could say WvW and also PvP are easier (although one would really think that with the same time investment raids would be extremely easy too), but they are not carriable unlike PvE. You actually need to play the game mode.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Karagee.6830]

I invite everyone to stop comparing apples and oranges.

If you take on one side people who raid seriously, you cannot compare them to people flipping camps in WvW and going afk for 5 minutes running into walls, because those are not the equivalent of a serious PvE raider, those are the people getting full carries in PvE (i.e. alt accounts or people who do 5k dps as damage dealers or people who just gg and take the rewards).

The equivalent of a serious raider in PvE is a serious raider in WvW, someone who does gvg or raids in an organised group with full boons and proper role setup.

So once you compare apples with apples this is the situation you are left with:

PvP: 26 weeks variable, as it depends on season breaks; low weekly time investment; not time gated (tied to the PvP season not a weekly reset)

WvW: 22 weeks; very high time investment; weekly time gate

PvE: 6 weeks; low time investment; weekly time gate

All game modes if played seriously require effort and, while PvE may require a little more competence and knowledge from beginners, it's also the only game mode that is completely and truly carriable.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Karagee.6830