Reaper Changes Feedback - 29 November balance preview

[Obtena.7952]

57 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Reaper has been meta in the past, so saying "for the entirety of Reaper's existence" is hyperbole. Most of the time that Reaper has really suffered has been in the period where the balance team was... shall we say, not exactly universally generous in their attention.

No it's not hyperbole because I'm not talking about if Reaper was meta in the past or not. I'm talking about Anet making changes to make a spec competitive in PVE just because the changes are 'simple' in the eyes of players. AGAIN ...  whether the changes are simple or not, doesn't appear to be a motivating factor in Anet actually making changes in the game.

57 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The current preview is showing a boost to reaper damage, so it seems that in this case they are doing it. People just don't think they've done enough. You're not even defending ArenaNet here, you're just being contrarian, pure and simple.

But I really don't see reaper getting team support here. Quickness? Would be strange after they made Harbinger do that. Alacrity? Doesn't really fit the concept, but maybe one could twist around some sort of justification. Sustain? Good luck getting around the "scourge just does it better" issue. But the most logical thing for a specialisation based around embodying the Grim Reaper is to kill things, necromancer lacks a good power DPS variant at the moment, and the only thing between reaper and being a good power DPS is some numbers buffs. I really don't see how you can think buffing reaper up to competitive DPS numbers is somehow a bad thing.  

So in your opinion, many years of small boosts (and nerfs) to Reaper DPS is Anet 'doing it'? Oh OK ... let me know how Anet 'doing it' works out for you in say ... 2 years? because if it's anything like how Anet has been 'doing it' for the last 8 years, I'm pretty sure I know how that's going to turn out. 

I don't think it's a bad thing that Anet buff Reaper DPS. I think it's a bad solution to making Reaper desirable for endgame teams, especially the ones that care about what specs they include in their teams. Don't get yourself into this mindset where if you can't imagine how it something would work, then it's not a possibility. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Acanthus.8120]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

We've also seen that approach with warrior builds toting maces and/or hammer, and they generally need more DPS than reaper currently offers to justify themselves.

We're not in disagreement. I was just pointing out Reaper can deal large amounts of breakbar damage/crowd control in general. Adding more would be a bit nuts in game modes that aren't PvE.

[Pooh.6897]

2 hours ago, Acanthus.8120 said:

Reaper already does that if you're willing to drop Close to Death for Dread. Dread gives you access to a truly ridiculous amount of fear.

Dread's access to fear is entirely dependent on the amount of adds that are within a fight/encounter. In Open World, Dread indeed gives a crazy amount of fears through shroud skill 3. In fights where adds are a lot more scarce, such as vale guardian, Dread gives almost no access to extra fears. Dread's main power however is not that it gives a lot of fears, but that it provides boons upon fearing a target. if you run reaper staff and you time it well, your fury uptime can be really high while getting some bonus quickness out of shroud as well. This is why I said earlier that replacing Shivers of Dread with Dread could be a good start towards a more stable Reaper. If Fury-generation was built into Reaper's core kit, the problem with the low critical hit-chance, especially out of shroud, would be a lot less severe. I understand that this will make Decimate Defenses significantly less valuable, but I would rather have a trait that provides something more interesting and unique instead.

[God.5728]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 I think it's a bad solution to making Reaper desirable for endgame teams, especially the ones that care about what specs they include in their teams.

So you have finally let the cat out of the bag with all your refutes. You just don't want to see Reaper in end-game instanced PvE content, okay gotcha.

I swear some people in this necromancer forum has a hidden agenda against Reaper.

Edited November 28, 2022 by God.5728

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, God.5728 said:

So you have finally let the cat out of the bag with all your refutes. You just don't want to see Reaper in end-game instanced PvE content, okay gotcha.

That's ridiculous. This is just a case where you are taking my statement out of context. I was talking about how I think DPS is a bad solution to making Reaper desirable in endgame teams when I said that.  The sad part is that you would have had to read where I did say that and purposefully ignore it to make your quote. 

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Parpage.9867]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I think DPS is a bad solution to making Reaper desirable

Ah yes, let's not give more dps to the starved spec that is supposed to be selfish and slow but hard hitting. I wonder what could go wrong. Do you even read what you type? Or does it sound just better in your head? Because trust me, it doesn't

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Parpage.9867 said:

Ah yes, let's not give more dps to the starved spec that is supposed to be selfish and slow but hard hitting. I wonder what could go wrong. Do you even read what you type? 

Actually, the question is do you even read what I type because ... I never said Reaper shouldn't get more DPS. 

[Ruisenior.6342]

5 hours ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

I don't want to support; I want to kill!

just give me my 50% damage boost and call it a day.

Just this. Add +50% damage on reaper shroud autoattack+soul spiral and revert back the 50% damage reduction while in shroud and we can start talking

[Artificer.3468]

Don't think I've seen it brought up much but it's possible to have both, tie support to blighters boon, leave deathly chill as is and make reapers onslaught even stronger.

 

That way if you want to support with your reaper in teams you can, if you want to spec into full (competitive) damage, then that could work too.

 

They can keep the number for reapers onslaught the same in pvp to avoid it becoming opppresive and change the boon that blighters boon gives in pvp and wvw if that would be an issue too. 

[draxynnic.3719]

12 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No it's not hyperbole because I'm not talking about if Reaper was meta in the past or not. I'm talking about Anet making changes to make a spec competitive in PVE just because the changes are 'simple' in the eyes of players. AGAIN ...  whether the changes are simple or not, doesn't appear to be a motivating factor in Anet actually making changes in the game.

So in your opinion, many years of small boosts (and nerfs) to Reaper DPS is Anet 'doing it'? Oh OK ... let me know how Anet 'doing it' works out for you in say ... 2 years? because if it's anything like how Anet has been 'doing it' for the last 8 years, I'm pretty sure I know how that's going to turn out. 

I don't think it's a bad thing that Anet buff Reaper DPS. I think it's a bad solution to making Reaper desirable for endgame teams, especially the ones that care about what specs they include in their teams. Don't get yourself into this mindset where if you can't imagine how it something would work, then it's not a possibility. 

You asked why Reaper hasn't been buffed it its existence. I think it's fair to say that during periods it was meta, it didn't need buffs. As for the current situation, the NEW balance team (what happened the past few years isn't indicative of the new team) has shown that buffing reaper damage is an objective for them. It's just that the current set of changes aren't enough. We can speculate on the reason for their caution, but I don't think 'ArenaNet has decided that reaper shouldn't do competitive damage in endgame PvE' is the most likely explanation.

As for your suggestion of giving Reaper an entirely different role... if ArenaNet comes up with something, that's their prerogative. In the meantime, though, you throwing 'but maybe they can do this instead' is just a smokescreen. We're here to give feedback, and the feedback is that the most obvious way to make the selfish power DPS spec viable is to make it actually do good DPS. Especially since everything else on necro is condition-oriented.

10 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually, the question is do you even read what I type because ... I never said Reaper shouldn't get more DPS. 

Perhaps not explicitly, but by becoming the top poster in this thread through arguing against people who are calling for reaper to get more DPS, you have implicitly said it over a dozen times in this thread alone.

[God.5728]

10 hours ago, Parpage.9867 said:

Ah yes, let's not give more dps to the starved spec that is supposed to be selfish and slow but hard hitting. I wonder what could go wrong. Do you even read what you type? Or does it sound just better in your head? Because trust me, it doesn't

I think I have figured out what's Obtena.7952 gameplan.

His avatar being a Mesmer and all, everything that has been posted by him is an illusion and his goal is to confuse all of us, devs included. This is the reason why necromancers never get any meaningful buffs/changes. It's the mesmers all along.

 

10 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually, the question is do you even read what I type because ... I never said Reaper shouldn't get more DPS. 

 

Yes, first you said "You don't think it is a bad thing that devs buffs Reaper DPS"

then you said "It's bad to balance Reaper by giving more DPS"

 

Reaper has NOTHING going for them besides DPS. It is a selfish DPS spec end of story. Everything about the spec, class fantasy and traits screams DPS. Do you actually believe Reaper is supposed to be a utility tank class because of second healthbar now? Or the age old meme about how "Reaper being good is based on how bad your team is"?

Edited November 29, 2022 by God.5728

[Parpage.9867]

6 hours ago, God.5728 said:

I think I have figured out what's Obtena.7952 gameplan.

His avatar being a Mesmer and all, everything that has been posted by him is an illusion and his goal is to confuse all of us, devs included. This is the reason why necromancers never get any meaningful buffs/changes. It's the mesmers all along.

 

 

Yes, first you said "You don't think it is a bad thing that devs buffs Reaper DPS"

then you said "It's bad to balance Reaper by giving more DPS"

 

Reaper has NOTHING going for them besides DPS. It is a selfish DPS spec end of story. Everything about the spec, class fantasy and traits screams DPS. Do you actually believe Reaper is supposed to be a utility tank class because of second healthbar now? Or the age old meme about how "Reaper being good is based on how bad your team is"?

Tbh we would have better results arguing with a brick wall, i know what we are supposed to run away as soon as we see such nonsense that can't be dealt with actual facts and data but i just can't help myself i love this class and i want it to be in a good spot 

[Dadnir.5038]

7 hours ago, God.5728 said:

I think I have figured out what's Obtena.7952 gameplan.

Obtena is just realist and tend to oppose idealist points of view by looking at the overall balance history. That's all.

The devs can buff reaper's dps, they've done that for 7 years already. Prior to the balance splits based on gamemode, it led to the reaper having devastating result against less experienced players (especially in WvW) while it wasn't even enough to be sought out in PvE end game.

You said it yourself, reaper is selfish. What you fail to consider is that reaper isn't only selfish it is also self sufficient. And it's that self sufficience that break the camel's back. The patch that led to reaper losing so much damage removed from the game most of the few things that it couldn't get by himself.

Yes the large amount of health point of the reaper's meta dps build is an issue, but it also true for it's ability to sustain himself, get quickness by himself, it's ability to ignore the need for precision and it's ability to build it's own might alone. All of this self-sufficience make it so that it doesn't benefit from being in a group as much as other professions/specs. While, at the same time, it's own selfishness make it an unattractive addition for a group.

So, the main fault of the "dps reaper" is that it's to self-sufficient. Looking at things in a vacuum and focusing exclusively on making "power" reaper a thing, you can:

- Target the self might packed into spite's minor by replacing might by either raw stats or damage modifiers. Note that by doing this you kick blighter's boon in the nuts making it totally useless in it's current form (which is why I said "looking at things in a vaccum").

- Target the self quickness of reaper's onslaught by simply removing the boon in favor of a different bonus that doesn't compete with any boon provided by allies. Note that RS AA without Quickness isn't a satisfying experience, thanksfully quickness can be gained from spite's Dread now.

- Target the self sustain by making decimate defense a lot more attractive than Soul eater so that players end up being tempted using a pure dps trait over a hybrid sustain/dps trait (atm, even in the best case, valkyrie gear, decimate defense don't offer more damage output than soul eater)

With this 3 things done, it would make sense for reaper to have a build with competitive damage output in an organized group and thus the pleas for an increase of reaper's damage output would be justified. But at the moment reaper meta dps build is nothing more than a self sufficient selfish bruiser build whose survivability can be arguable. And, I don't think such a build need to have competitive damage output in an organized group.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[Thron Stal.9367]

On 11/12/2022 at 9:31 AM, Apokriphos.7042 said:

From a WvW perspective, I think the changes to necromancer are extremely disappointing. 

Not only is the latest spec completely invalidated by any sort of projectile block, but core, scourge and reaper usefulness in any particular fight is at best a delay, and usually a free bag. They are definitely the first class I target in any engagement. 

I am surprised no one else is complaining about the state of necromancer in WvW. Its terrible.

I have noticed our reapers damage in WvW (Not PVE land)  is very low compared to others, almost never in the top 5 as well. Max 6k dps on a standing still boss.  Have seen Ele's doing 30k damage.  There are NO Mechs or mech damage to compare, but max I saw a long time ago was only 10k.   support FB = 100dps, because my staff moved. lol 

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

Today is the day for me and if they do not take all our feedback to heart and do not deliver on the much needed and substantial DPS buff, I will be taking my time and my money elsewhere. They've had too many opportunities over the years and this will be the last straw for me. My guess they leave it status quo as per their pre-patch information if so that will convince me this game is a lost cause for me. We'll know soon enough.

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

1 hour ago, Spiderman.5468 said:

I have noticed our reapers damage in WvW (Not PVE land)  is very low compared to others, almost never in the top 5 as well. Max 6k dps on a standing still boss. 

probably b'cuz most memebois run celestial?

36 minutes ago, Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

Today is the day for me and if they do not take all our feedback to heart and do not deliver on the much needed and substantial DPS buff, I will be taking my time and my money elsewhere.

they're gonna deliver exactly what they said the will: a small dps gain and no nerfs.

[Parpage.9867]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

But at the moment reaper meta dps build is nothing more than a self sufficient selfish bruiser build whose survivability can be arguable

The only thing that it can bruise is my last brain cells trying to figure out why you people think that it doesn't deserve a buff (let alone a rework, but at least a buff to make us happy for the time being so we can ignore the QoL changes that he needs) 

 

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

And, I don't think such a build need to have competitive damage output in an organized group

And here we go again "reaper cannot have nice things, stay in open world lmao" what a daft argument. All of your previous arguments are so dull as well. You talk about being self-sufficient and other nonsense but you keep forgetting that build like virtuoso, mechanist, firebrand and i won't be listing AGAIN the many classes and builds that can out perform reaper because it's very tiring having to type the same thing over and over again. 

[Obtena.7952]

10 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You asked why Reaper hasn't been buffed it its existence. I think it's fair to say that during periods it was meta, it didn't need buffs. As for the current situation, the NEW balance team (what happened the past few years isn't indicative of the new team) has shown that buffing reaper damage is an objective for them. It's just that the current set of changes aren't enough. We can speculate on the reason for their caution, but I don't think 'ArenaNet has decided that reaper shouldn't do competitive damage in endgame PvE' is the most likely explanation.

As for your suggestion of giving Reaper an entirely different role... if ArenaNet comes up with something, that's their prerogative. In the meantime, though, you throwing 'but maybe they can do this instead' is just a smokescreen. We're here to give feedback, and the feedback is that the most obvious way to make the selfish power DPS spec viable is to make it actually do good DPS. Especially since everything else on necro is condition-oriented.

Perhaps not explicitly, but by becoming the top poster in this thread through arguing against people who are calling for reaper to get more DPS, you have implicitly said it over a dozen times in this thread alone.

I guess I'm just going to repeat myself here AGAIN, for like, the 10th time:

I'm not against Reaper getting DPS buffs. I'm against the idea that giving Reaper competitive DPS is a good solution to making it 'team well' in endgame PVE. It's NOT the DPS that is holding the spec back; it's how self-sufficient it is at like ... everything. 

I know Reaper has been buffed in it's existence and it was meta for a blink of an eye at some point. That doesn't change the fact that in the 8 years (and still going ...) Anet has NOT shown an interest in fulfilling people's fantasy about Reaper being competitive DPS. New balance team? That's nice ... and that competitive DPS buff is where in the last 2, 3 patches? The same place it's been in the last 20-30 patches. I prefer to keep my feet grounded here. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Nephalem.8921]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Obtena is just realist and tend to oppose idealist points of view by looking at the overall balance history. That's all.

The devs can buff reaper's dps, they've done that for 7 years already. Prior to the balance splits based on gamemode, it led to the reaper having devastating result against less experienced players (especially in WvW) while it wasn't even enough to be sought out in PvE end game.

You said it yourself, reaper is selfish. What you fail to consider is that reaper isn't only selfish it is also self sufficient. And it's that self sufficience that break the camel's back. The patch that led to reaper losing so much damage removed from the game most of the few things that it couldn't get by himself.

Yes the large amount of health point of the reaper's meta dps build is an issue, but it also true for it's ability to sustain himself, get quickness by himself, it's ability to ignore the need for precision and it's ability to build it's own might alone. All of this self-sufficience make it so that it doesn't benefit from being in a group as much as other professions/specs. While, at the same time, it's own selfishness make it an unattractive addition for a group.

So, the main fault of the "dps reaper" is that it's to self-sufficient. Looking at things in a vacuum and focusing exclusively on making "power" reaper a thing, you can:

- Target the self might packed into spite's minor by replacing might by either raw stats or damage modifiers. Note that by doing this you kick blighter's boon in the nuts making it totally useless in it's current form (which is why I said "looking at things in a vaccum").

- Target the self quickness of reaper's onslaught by simply removing the boon in favor of a different bonus that doesn't compete with any boon provided by allies. Note that RS AA without Quickness isn't a satisfying experience, thanksfully quickness can be gained from spite's Dread now.

- Target the self sustain by making decimate defense a lot more attractive than Soul eater so that players end up being tempted using a pure dps trait over a hybrid sustain/dps trait (atm, even in the best case, valkyrie gear, decimate defense don't offer more damage output than soul eater)

With this 3 things done, it would make sense for reaper to have a build with competitive damage output in an organized group and thus the pleas for an increase of reaper's damage output would be justified. But at the moment reaper meta dps build is nothing more than a self sufficient selfish bruiser build whose survivability can be arguable. And, I don't think such a build need to have competitive damage output in an organized group.

Bladesworn can also do 25might. Even spec into it being aoe without dps loss. Some vuln, some quick. self fury unlike reaper and does up to 42k in groups.

Holo, slb, fb, and a couple more builds are on similar self buff levels and still do much higher dps.

Untamed does more dps solo than some builds fully buffed.

The things you mentioned are in no way special to reaper. Certainly no reason to be weaker than supports. you know builds which can provide those boons to 5 players and still do more dps.

Most of the builds i mentioned have also far more sustain than reaper. Especially quickherald, untamed and bladesworn. those have busted sustain.

[Parpage.9867]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not against Reaper getting DPS buffs. I'm against the idea that giving Reaper competitive DPS is a good solution to making it 'team well' in endgame PVE. 

Wich literally contradicts itself. You're not against buffing reaper but at the same time you're against the idea of giving him a decent dps. You see where it doesn't make sense? Also like many other said: if you're so much against buffing the dps of a spec that is supposed to do that, what do you think they are supposed to buff it for making it useful in a party?

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't change the fact that in the 8 years (and still going ...) Anet has NOT shown an interest in fulfilling people's fantasy about Reaper being competitive DPS

You're right. They didn't. But that's because they don't care about it. They have showed to us that they can deliver nice fixes for a class and make it feel good (look at scrapper for example) and they also know how to rework weapons to make them work as well, just like engi rifle. And what did we got instead? Bread crumbs for buffs wich are nice but not enough, plus a band-aid fix on the staff when we need reworks for off hand weapons and we need a fix for main hand dagger because that weapon is very clunky and disappointing. 

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Parpage.9867 said:

Wich literally contradicts itself.

No it doesn't at all. There is a massive difference for Reaper getting some DPS buffs for reasons (like you see in today's patch) and Reaper getting DPS buffs to make it competitive in endgame PVE. The reasoning matters.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Parpage.9867]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No it doesn't at all

Yes it does, but whatever i would have better results arguing with a brick wall

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Parpage.9867 said:

Yes it does,

No, the reasoning DOES matter. It matters ALOT. So when I dispute one reason for a DPS change but accept another, that is NOT a contradiction. 

If you don't think the reason matters, you aren't paying attention to the fact that Anet does lots of work to give us a preview of the upcoming changes and explain why they make the class changes in the patch notes.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Parpage.9867]

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, the reasoning DOES matter. It matters ALOT. So when I dispute one reason for a DPS change but accept another, that is NOT a contradiction. 

If you don't think the reason matters, you aren't paying attention to the fact that Anet does lots of work to give us a preview of the upcoming changes and explain why they make the class changes in the patch notes.

You would think that the amount of the confused reaction that you get whenever your post your hot takes about reaper would make you think about what you say, but i guess i'm wrong. Then tell me, what acceptable buffs should reaper get for it to be in a decent spot since buffing his dps according to you is not the solution? Alacrity on shout? Aoe quickness when in shroud? Or maybe idk, how about we give the dps to the spec that is supposed to do that. It's not that deep, i swear. 

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Parpage.9867 said:

 Then tell me, what acceptable buffs should reaper get for it to be in a decent spot since buffing his dps according to you is not the solution? 

This is going to set pants on fire:

I think Reaper is likely going to need a massive nerf to self-sufficiency, likely in its offense, before Anet can even THINK about how to make it desirable in teams. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Obtena.7952