Reaper Changes Feedback - 29 November balance preview

[draxynnic.3719]

10 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, and to take Anet's current actions to buff Reaper DPS as an indication that they want Reaper to be a competitive DPS role in PVE is a very assuming position to take considering Anet has ALSO buffed Reaper DPS in the past as well and it DIDN'T result in Reaper being competitive DPS in PVE. Also, Anet buffs DPS on all sorts of things that AREN'T DPS roles so a DPS buff is a really weak assumption to make to conclude Anet wants it to be in a competitive DPS role in teams. 

But somehow, you regard the most recent DPS buff as EXCEPTIONAL because 'new balance team'. OK. I don't get that view because as far as I'm concerned, a DPS change is a regular kind of change to any spec, regardless of it's role. I want Anet to tell us what they intend, like they have for all the other specs that have roles. If there is any exception here, it's that we haven't been told what Anet wants Reaper to be, even though it's getting changes to it that can be interpreted as a pure DPS role direction. 

Frankly, the only thing I really expect is Anet simply buffs the DPS, not say what role it's in and allow players to make their choices based on what it is, not what Anet says it should be. I'm OK with that because that's how the game should work anyways (these role assignments are just a thin veneer of balance trickery as far as I'm concerned). I'm simply not OK with the nonsensical statements from players about how Reaper should work because of what they are assuming about how Anet regards the spec. For example, the endless calls for flat DPS buffs of dozens of percent because "Anet wants Reaper to be DPS role in PVE" ... that's just absurd.

If Reaper becomes a competitive DPS choice because of how Anet changes it, ok then ... but no one should be pounding the desk for a specific change because they know what Anet wants or intends for the spec until they tell us. 

There are two kinds of people:

Those who can draw logical conclusions without being explicitly told.

...

 

They're screaming their intent between what they're saying and their actions. They've stated which roles they think specialisation and builds should fill in PvE, so balancing is going to be pushing a specialisation to fit at least one of those roles. The recent balance update has pushed Reaper heavily towards DPS, increasing its DPS by a whopping 25% (as opposed to the previous team's token insignificant increase here and there because they'd get noticed if they completely ignored it) and putting it on par with where DPS firebrand was before the patch and above condi mechanist and most boon supports. Nothing in the balance patch has done anything to help reaper fill any of the other roles. The inference is pretty clear. They HAVE pushed it into a DPS role. No need for them to explicitly say they're doing it, they have done it. It's just a question of whether they think it should be just a bit higher, or whether they think where it is now is enough due to other characteristics of the build.

 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

There are two kinds of people:

Those who can draw logical conclusions without being explicitly told.

...

 

They're screaming their intent between what they're saying and their actions. They've stated which roles they think specialisation and builds should fill in PvE, so balancing is going to be pushing a specialisation to fit at least one of those roles. The recent balance update has pushed Reaper heavily towards DPS, increasing its DPS by a whopping 25% (as opposed to the previous team's token insignificant increase here and there because they'd get noticed if they completely ignored it) and putting it on par with where DPS firebrand was before the patch and above condi mechanist and most boon supports. Nothing in the balance patch has done anything to help reaper fill any of the other roles. The inference is pretty clear. They HAVE pushed it into a DPS role. No need for them to explicitly say they're doing it, they have done it. It's just a question of whether they think it should be just a bit higher, or whether they think where it is now is enough due to other characteristics of the build.

 

Like you said ... action speaks louder than words and Anet is pretty thin on talking about the plans for Reaper. So if actions is all we got, then until Reaper is meta DPS and competes with other top DPS classes ... it doesn't. As long as it doesn't, there is no action happening that should convince you it should or will be meta. That includes the not-exceptional action of Anet buffing Reaper DPS. 

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Hindenburg.3415]

5 hours ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

Reaper needed 50% damage boost, not 5% but yeah, I'm back at the top in the DPS meter, at least for open content where no one really try to pull their best DPS...

 

Maybe you should check your math again.

 

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Because they added more than was in the original preview. This wasn't the feedback being wrong, this was the balance team listening to the feedback.

 

Nope. Absolute majority of damage increase came from initial patch notes. ( barbs , auto , executioner's )

But whatever makes you feel better I guess.

[Asum.4960]

2 hours ago, Hindenburg.3415 said:

Nope. Absolute majority of damage increase came from initial patch notes. ( barbs , auto , executioner's )

But whatever makes you feel better I guess.

5% extra Crit Chance on Death's Perception (allowing for a far better gear and rune setup), the Auto Chain resetting Gravedigger, as well as reducing the LF drain of Reaper Shroud from 5% per second to 4%, and significant LF gain buffs (more than 100% increases in places) to the Auto, Death's Spiral and Grasping Darkness were massive. 

 

Most of the changes in the preview* were near pointless as the buffs to the Shroud skills and increased Shroud uptime for Soul Barbs would have been unworkable to utilize as DPS gain outside of maybe barely on the golem due to Reaper's already massive LF issues, even when focusing on the LF granting auto. 

*and the biggest change there was Death's Charge, not the 0.2 coefficient increase on the first Auto, nor Executioner's.

 

So they both added major damage increases after, as well as the LF gain to make the preview patch buffs actually useable.

The patch went from absolutely nowhere near enough to almost enough/decent, based on correct feedback about the initial patch notes.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Worth noting on the autos-gravedigger interaction, it went from "reduces the cooldown on Gravedigger (unspecified amount)" in the preview to "Resets the cooldown on Gravedigger," on release.  That is a MASSIVE change.

[Methuselah.4376]

9 hours ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

Reaper needed 50% damage boost, not 5% but yeah, I'm back at the top in the DPS meter, at least for open content where no one really try to pull their best DPS...

Thing is, since HoT, we already got a 50% dps boost technically speaking. This patch we got roughly a 15-17% dps boost not 5%. You're just looking at the raw number in the patch notes, but all the changes they made contribute to this overall increase. 

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

18 hours ago, Hindenburg.3415 said:

Maybe you should check your math again.

 

14 hours ago, Methuselah.4376 said:

You're just looking at the raw number in the patch notes

no, I don't and I'm not. I'm not doing math; I'm just throwing numbers.

[Methuselah.4376]

7 hours ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

 

no, I don't and I'm not. I'm not doing math; I'm just throwing numbers.

Clearly you are. 

[Biermeister.4678]

Need to put Grasping Darkness back to what it was, does not hit target to include NPC goes in wrong direction at times or goes in to cool down immediately without activating. Those problems are in all game modes 

[Axl.8924]

On 12/13/2022 at 1:54 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

Like you said ... action speaks louder than words and Anet is pretty thin on talking about the plans for Reaper. So if actions is all we got, then until Reaper is meta DPS and competes with other top DPS classes ... it doesn't. As long as it doesn't, there is no action happening that should convince you it should or will be meta. That includes the not-exceptional action of Anet buffing Reaper DPS. 

 

 

Action speaks louder than words as in Anet finally changed because the class had no roles in competitive pve.

This whole thing of play how you like it doesn't matter is nonsense.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

Action speaks louder than words as in Anet finally changed because the class had no roles in competitive pve.

This whole thing of play how you like it doesn't matter is nonsense.

 

 

Might be nonsense to you ... it's not nonsense to lots of people though, since they do it. 

[Axl.8924]

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Might be nonsense to you ... it's not nonsense to lots of people though, since they do it. 

They changed reaper though which means it was a big enough deal.

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

They changed reaper though which means it was a big enough deal.

They changed Reaper lots of times. This particular change is not exceptional or an indication that playing how you want is 'nonsense' and doesn't matter.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Axl.8924]

On 12/10/2022 at 1:09 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

So people need to take the next step here because all this assumes Reaper should be 'good' in PVE. Objectively, that needs to be questioned. Where does that assumption come from? This Reaper should be good in PVE is certainly not necessary and it's certainly not exceptional that it's not either. 

Is it a good assumption? Well, ideally, Reaper is good in PVE sure. But based on the history of the game and how it's designed to work, that assumption is questionable. 

 You said this and to that i say its nonsense.

If you make content where one person is excluded, you are as a dev setting yourself up for failure.

 

Content is meant to be enjoyed and yes sometimes you can have a build thats not viable in one situation but viable in pvp for instance say world of warcraft has different stuff one for pve one for pvp, same for gw2 some stuff is built for pvp.

 

Having a entire elite being prevented from doing content because they are going to get bullied due to making it so severely underpowered that it encourages toxicity and harrassement is madness and that is why i said i said what you said is nonsense.

 

If content isn't balanced correctly, then you as a dev are failing at your job.

 

Imagine if i made a entire class with awesome lore awesome graphics but unable to compete in content, well why create such a thing?  nobody is going to play it if they are going to get grief.

 

Nowright now 35k is probably more or less fine maybe kind of on the low side by 1 or 2k but its still a good start.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Axl.8924

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

 You said this and to that i say its nonsense.

OK, you say it's nonsense. Lots of people would say Reaper is 'good' in PVE with 35K as a pure DPS spec is nonsense too. 

I'm not going to argue with your opinion. I think it's still very much an open question about the value Reaper brings to group PVE, even if some people convinced themselves 35K is competitive DPS compared to the other pure DPS specs. What is NOT an open question is the fact that if you want to play Reaper, you can, which means it DOESN'T need a DPS buff because 'can't get teams'. 

But here is an idea ... since you're going to try to rub things I say in my face and tell me I'm wrong, how about we check the data we have access to because really that's what qualifies if Reaper is 'good' or not for the people that care about performance. The proof is going to be if Reaper is desirable in teams because the original complaint is that it's not desirable to teams so it needs top shelf DPS. How is Reaper doing compared to say, Virt or SBeast?

Don't bother, I already did and it doesn't look good for anyone who's going to try to argue with me that this recent update is proving I'm wrong somehow. Like I already said in the post you quoted, until Reaper competes as pure DPS with other pur DPS specs  ... it doesn't. 

Here is some advice. The next time you try to take a go at me, be a little more prepared and aware of what you are talking about.   

Edited January 16, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Acanthus.8120]

Yo, I'm just going to jump in and say I've rather enjoyed the changes a lot. Running a Marauders/Dragon Mix with Eagle Runes is actually pretty satisfying in terms of output. I haven't tried benchmarking with the golem, but I don't really feel a need to. It's enough that I can notice my impact in a group, and so can others in the group. I might try a crusader build using decimate defenses for soloing open-world legendaries and harder champions.

Also, why are you guys still arguing over pre-patch stuff?

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

14 hours ago, Acanthus.8120 said:

Running a Marauders/Dragon Mix with Eagle Runes is actually pretty satisfying in terms of output.

I run Marauder with Dragon's weapons/backpiece and Runes of the Golemancer and only do slightly less damage compared to full Berserker, plus an additional survivability boost.
and with Core Necro, I actually do more damage somehow.

[Acanthus.8120]

16 hours ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

and with Core Necro, I actually do more damage somehow.

How is that a thing? Death Magic nowhere near makes up for the losses of Reaper, and Blood Magic and Curses do little to help power builds.

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

7 hours ago, Acanthus.8120 said:

How is that a thing? Death Magic nowhere near makes up for the losses of Reaper, and Blood Magic and Curses do little to help power builds.

I meant Core Necro with Marauder/Dragon's does more damage than Core Necro with full Berserker somehow. And Blood Magic adds more dps than Death Magic.

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

I meant Core Necro with Marauder/Dragon's does more damage than Core Necro with full Berserker somehow. And Blood Magic adds more dps than Death Magic.

I'm going to bet that most likely, it doesn't. Are you basing this some observation or did you measure it? What are your builds?

Edited January 22, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Are you basing this some observation or did you measure it? What are your builds?

tested on the golem. I think the only reason I get better dps is because core necro is so weak, the golem from the runes actually adds more dps and b'cuz I just use staff (I just can't stand dagger o axe anymore). Maybe those work better with full zerker.

Marauder/Dragon's: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSQAYlFwOYVMF2IOySfrSA-zRRYih7bOKWglRtJaFFl+HAB283/kEABoC-e

Berserker: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSQAYlFwOYVMF2IOySfrSA-zRIYRU8XG1moVUUmcAEYwf/U2ACYAUB-e

[Axl.8924]

On 1/16/2023 at 5:17 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

OK, you say it's nonsense. Lots of people would say Reaper is 'good' in PVE with 35K as a pure DPS spec is nonsense too. 

I'm not going to argue with your opinion. I think it's still very much an open question about the value Reaper brings to group PVE, even if some people convinced themselves 35K is competitive DPS compared to the other pure DPS specs. What is NOT an open question is the fact that if you want to play Reaper, you can, which means it DOESN'T need a DPS buff because 'can't get teams'. 

But here is an idea ... since you're going to try to rub things I say in my face and tell me I'm wrong, how about we check the data we have access to because really that's what qualifies if Reaper is 'good' or not for the people that care about performance. The proof is going to be if Reaper is desirable in teams because the original complaint is that it's not desirable to teams so it needs top shelf DPS. How is Reaper doing compared to say, Virt or SBeast?

Don't bother, I already did and it doesn't look good for anyone who's going to try to argue with me that this recent update is proving I'm wrong somehow. Like I already said in the post you quoted, until Reaper competes as pure DPS with other pur DPS specs  ... it doesn't. 

Here is some advice. The next time you try to take a go at me, be a little more prepared and aware of what you are talking about.   

 

Reaper is a class with some CC and dps some utility it can bring might be useful yes but its not say: Barrier to everyone or good heals or something. 

Reaper is clearly a DPS class and thus should have dps that allows it to be viable for raids, if its not then you failed.

 

From what i heard virtuoso has pretty high dps but i don't have the experience to back it up with soulbeast or deadeye.

 

I can back up what i say about necro because i've played reaper in raids and i remember a time where someone shouted me out and told me play something else angrily being toxic and all towards me for daring to play reaper.

[Obtena.7952]

10 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

Reaper is a class with some CC and dps some utility it can bring might be useful yes but its not say: Barrier to everyone or good heals or something. 

Reaper is clearly a DPS class and thus should have dps that allows it to be viable for raids, if its not then you failed.. 

This is a nice sentiment ... but everyone should know Reaper is not going to compete as a pure DPS class @ 35K just because it has some CC and some might. 🙄

It's funny you keep telling me what a Reaper SHOULD do. I keep telling you I'm not going to argue with you what your opinion is. What is relevant is what Anet has and is doing ingame and how that affects how people play. For some reason you decided to necro this thread just throw some more punches at me. That's a big fail for you considering the fact is that the Nov. patch changes you want to rub my face in hasn't significantly changed Reaper desirability in teams. 

Again, the actions are more important than the words here ... until Reaper is competitive for DPS roles in teams, it's not. The Nov. patch you pretend was the Hail Mary here ... was really just "Just Another Balance Patch" of the many we have had over the last decade.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Axl.8924]

24 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

This is a nice sentiment ... but everyone should know Reaper is not going to compete as a pure DPS class @ 35K just because it has some CC and some might. 🙄

It's funny you keep telling me what a Reaper SHOULD do. I keep telling you I'm not going to argue with you what your opinion is. What is relevant is what Anet has and is doing ingame and how that affects how people play. For some reason you decided to necro this thread just throw some more punches at me. That's a big fail for you considering the fact is that the Nov. patch changes you want to rub my face in hasn't really changed Reaper desirability in teams very much. 

Again, the actions are more important than the words here ... until Reaper is competitive for DPS roles in teams, it's not. The Nov. patch you pretend was the Hail Mary here ... was really just "Just Another Balance Patch" of the many we have had over the last decade.

 

But it did change a little its more desireable now.

We just need for a bit more DPS and it wil be perfect.

 

Because of the  hp its unlikely to hit 40k+ to be on that level but 36-37 is reasonable.

[Obtena.7952]

16 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

But it did change a little its more desireable now.

OK but getting a slight DPS increase to slightly increase it's use was never a point I disputed so 🤷‍♂️You can't even assume that the SMALL increase in Reaper use in teams since the Nov Patch is only due to due to the changes it got either. 

Frankly, I don't think you know what you are even disagreeing with me about ... it would require you to understand my point which it's obvious you don't. Like I said, maybe next time you come prepared if you want to necro a thread to tell me I'm wrong. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Obtena.7952