Scepter changes - Heal tempest

[Jski.6180]

I think this maybe a good thing for the ele class over all as long as they make the dagger main hand an stronger over all support wepon. I suggest making cone of cold into an "endless" channel skill much like med kit 1 for eng.

The reasoning is that scepter is now going to fill the selfish roll that the core ele was missing for an wepon so out side of staff (the more utility wepon as well as an 2h wepon so tempest cant use its elite spec wepon with it) dagger fills that support roll.

[soulknight.9620]

Its a good "rework" for competetive modes no doubt about that. In pve outside healing spec it will be somewhat the same. As for healing. Sure loosing a long range heal is kinda meh, but Ele has a lot of heals from other sources. I dont actually think that it will impact heal alac tempest in general by a lot. But yeah i think dagger is the way to go now. 

[luigrein.8514]

"Scepter isn't really a support weapon" and "Scepter was the best main hand support weapon ele had" can both be true statements. I agree scepter isn't really a support weapon but it's competition for eles that want to use warhorn (which is definitely a support weapon) is just dagger, which is generally even worse at support. If ele HAD a main hand weapon with good support capabilities I'm pretty sure everyone would be all for the change.

[zeyeti.8347]

2 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

I think this maybe a good thing for the ele class over all as long as they make the dagger main hand an stronger over all support wepon. I suggest making cone of cold into an "endless" channel skill much like med kit 1 for eng.

The reasoning is that scepter is now going to fill the selfish roll that the core ele was missing for an wepon so out side of staff (the more utility wepon as well as an 2h wepon so tempest cant use its elite spec wepon with it) dagger fills that support roll.

oh yeah endless mentos kisscool puke , thats the least they can do to make healtemp competitive 

[Jski.6180]

Just now, zeyeti.8347 said:

oh yeah endless mentos kisscool puke , thats the least they can do to make healtemp competitive 

The endless ASMR blowing in ppl ears heal! Far better then the water spay sound med kit 1.

[Ruisenior.6342]

With the latest update to scepter i had some hope.

 

So now we have:

Water/Fire messed up (they are already ok)

Earth a bit of utility improvment

Air nothing meaningful (more of the same with some pumped numbers definetly not enough)

 

What me and mostly all of us expected:

Fire/Water remaining the same, just as they are now!!

Earth just what they did. Good improvments on the 2nd skill giving us a good defensive tool and from what i read the 3rd skill will pulse strike damage (i hope it does a good amount) blinding on first pulse and the criple on already bleeding foes they gave us minor crowd control here, just what we expect from earth.

Air --- Acces to fury (only mainhand dagger offers us this) and a mix of mobility/damaging skills here as an easy example:

            1 remaining as it is just improving numbers.

            2 Good AoE burst skill (what they did for me its not enough)

            3 Some kind of utility skill; as an example a mini tp and blast finisher like mirage elite but without charges and 15 sec cd CAUSE YOU KNOW WE ARE MAGES USING A SCEPTER AND MAGES DO THOSE THINGS!!!!!

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Ruisenior.6342

[Leo G.4501]

It's bizarre they keep changing scepter attacks. I still remember when they changed Dragon's Tooth to ground targeted from the finnicky target-based that the target could just walk away from. The ground targeted version I had really gotten used to as an area denial tool (or they could just block or dodge it) along with all the other ground targeted attacks. You'd end up forcing targets to take longer routes when chasing you or eat through some blocks/dodges.

 

The change to honing attacks gives me the impression they may actually *decrease* the damage to compensate that it's faster and is only requires you tab on the foe. I'm also assuming the damage on lightning/blinding strike will be in flux too considering they are AoEs and an ammo skill too.

 

Dustdevil seems interesting, tho. Wonder what the size of the targeted AoE will be.

[Drag You Down.2615]

On 11/11/2022 at 6:08 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

The water trident change leads me to believe that they want staff and dagger+warhorn as the support sets. If you look on Lucky Noobs they still have the older dagger+warhorn heal alac tempest.

I think that is the stupidest thing. They want scepter to be a pure offensive weapon in general for all classes, but they remained the defensive abilities on dagger, doesn't make sense... We don't need another offensive weapon, another 900 range offensive weapon is pistol, they function in very similar way now. (Even Ele can't use pistol, but maybe in the future.) Originally, scepter is a multifunction versatile weapon.

[Infusion.7149]

39 minutes ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

I think that is the stupidest thing. They want scepter to be a pure offensive weapon in general for all classes, but they remained the defensive abilities on dagger, doesn't make sense... We don't need another offensive weapon, another 900 range offensive weapon is pistol, they function in very similar way now. (Even Ele can't use pistol, but maybe in the future.) Originally, scepter is a multifunction versatile weapon.

Scepter's heal on water trident was 20s cooldown for the longest time, it's only since after the competitive split in 2020 (this past August) that it turned into a 10s cooldown in PVE only. Since it still heals the user, it will remain relevant for PVP and in any scenario where you are not the heal support in the party. The removal of the all or nothing damage on shatterstone scepter #2 means you can actually eek some damage in water attunement other than on hammer using catalyst.

Elementalist options:

• 130 range sword (weaver) with marginal DPS for its limitations and range except for water attunement which doesn't do much damage at all
• 130 -600 range hammer (catalyst) with decent DPS if you upkeep orbs ... I actually keep thinking this is 240 range on water/earth so I corrected myself here
• 240-400ish dagger with decent DPS 
• 900 range scepter with decent DPS finally after multiple buffs save for air autoattack
• 1200 range staff with generally terrible DPS in most situations (the exception is if it is a mostly stationary target and you can drop meteor shower on it)

Staff is more of a support weapon and has been that way since the core days. There used to be fresh air scepter burst and I feel that is what they are trying to shift scepter back to.

The only reason why a dagger warhorn tempest could be worse than a scepter warhorn tempest in terms of support is if running alacrity builds. You have heal from water 2 on dagger which is 10s cooldown in PVE as well as a shocking aura (air 3) and a blast finisher on Frozen burst (water dagger 3). 

Staff for healing heals more in the sense of sustained heals because you can blast water with Ice Spike while camping water and the autoattack heals. You happen to lose the sand squall boon sharing as well as might from heat sync which is the tradeoff. If you needed to do a kite or push role you'd probably use staff anyway.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Infusion.7149
fix grammar

[Jimbru.6014]

Scepter -- specifically Meteorlogicus, as befits  a Tempest -- is my Tempest's main weapon. Has been for a few years now. Taking away Water Trident healing is a big deal to me, because being able to turn on heals in group content like world bosses and metas is  why I love playing Celestial Tempest in the open world. Honestly, it's making me wonder if I should remain committed to this game when ArenaNet wants to slap one of my most fun characters like that for no good reason at all. I'm fine with most of the other scepter changes, but don't take away my Water Trident.

[Mauti.3520]

I like the changes to scepter, but Heal Tempest needs a big compensation now.

Losing access to Elemental Bastion was a big hit and now losing out on trident is another big one. It was a big heal, it had regen attached to it, regen could cleanse condition via a very comfortably accesible gm trait in water, yeah. There is not much convenient heal in heal tempest anymore in a PvE Scenario where you are expected to deliver boons. It's fine in PvP/WvW though.

[Infusion.7149]

7 minutes ago, Mauti.3520 said:

I like the changes to scepter, but Heal Tempest needs a big compensation now.

Losing access to Elemental Bastion was a big hit and now losing out on trident is another big one. It was a big heal, it had regen attached to it, regen could cleanse condition via a very comfortably accesible gm trait in water, yeah. There is not much convenient heal in heal tempest anymore in a PvE Scenario where you are expected to deliver boons. It's fine in PvP/WvW though.

Tidal Surge (warhorn 4) does no damage in PVP/WVW and has a 35s cooldown. If the cooldown were reduced with the base heal kept the same that could serve as a burst heal and CC and fulfill some of the push roles in PVE. Else it could just scale better with healing power. If the balance philosophy is to have skills do one main thing, then it would be a resustain skill for any scepter ele since you would be creating space to your target and also healing.

From the [LN] guide, most important sources of healing when traited for alacrity (so no heal on auras) are:
Weapon skills on Water Attunement
On staff

• Water Blast (auto)
• Geyser
• Healing Rain

For dagger/warhorn

• Cone of Cold
• Tidal Surge
• Water Globe

A more creative change would be to incorporate a double blast finisher on shatterstone such that you can blast Water Globe.

[Junkpile.7439]

Something really is wrong when healers use weapon that is made for one shotting enemies. Anet please remove all scepter healing skills. 🤦‍♂️

[the krytan assassin.9235]

Scepter:

Dragons tooth: blast finisher

Phoenix: blastfinisher

Rock barrier: gain 250 toughness

Dust devil: inflict blindness

Blinding flash: inflicts blindness

Water Trident: ranged aoe heal and applies regen.

 

Dagger:

Cone of cold: heals allies with limited range small range (50% healing of water Trident)

Frozen burst: blast finisher 

Convergence: grants Fury for each foe struck.

Shocking aura: grants shocking aura

Ring of earth: blocks projectiles for ~1 second.

 

Neither are really support focused weapons, but if i had to pick one it'd definitely be scepter. If Tempest is specifically designed as support Espec and offers an offhand as Espec weapon then the class should have access to a main hand weapon that supports/synergizes with the role of the Espec offhand. Completely removing the support aspect of the support oriented weapon while not giving any reasonable alternative is just horrible game design.

Anet should either make sure all professions have weapon sets that are able to fulfil the Especs intended purposes or should have extra weapon sets added to the core class (3 different main hand/off hand options would be preferred in general). Unfortunately 99.9% sure it will never happen though. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by the krytan assassin.9235

[Infusion.7149]

The shocking aura you are discounting is quite pivotal in PVP scenarios (as the only other access is through overload and "Rebound") and also for outside of PVE you are more likely to take additional healing (and boons) from auras via Elemental Bastion than alacrity. On top of that Water Trident recharge is only 10s in PVE , it's still 20s in PVP/WVW.
The fact that PVP support tempest has always run dagger+focus (not warhorn) or staff is a testament to the fact that scepter is not the heal weapon for tempest. It has not been the PVE heal weapon up until the recent changes to provide alacrity which precludes heal on auras, as evidenced by the [LN] page which hasn't been updated. It is rare to see scepter in WVW outside of roaming and if it's a scepter using elementalist it typically is a spike damage build. 

[the krytan assassin.9235]

10 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The shocking aura you are discounting is quite pivotal in PVP scenarios (as the only other access is through overload and "Rebound") and also for outside of PVE you are more likely to take additional healing (and boons) from auras via Elemental Bastion than alacrity. On top of that Water Trident recharge is only 10s in PVE , it's still 20s in PVP/WVW.
The fact that PVP support tempest has always run dagger+focus (not warhorn) or staff is a testament to the fact that scepter is not the heal weapon for tempest. It has not been the PVE heal weapon up until the recent changes to provide alacrity which precludes heal on auras, as evidenced by the [LN] page which hasn't been updated. It is rare to see scepter in WVW outside of roaming and if it's a scepter using elementalist it typically is a spike damage build. 

Ah, so scepter is not the supposed PvE support weapon because dagger synergizes better with a trait that PvE Tempest is not able to get? Anet has decided to put alac and elemental bastion in the same traitline, 100% realizing that PvE Tempest will always be forced to pick alac over elemental bastion.

Sure you are correct that for WvW/PvP dagger has been the support weapon, but for PvE its not... If 80% of dagger support comes from aura share, its simply not a support weapon for PvE aslong as PvE can't get any benefit out of it (no elemental bastion, shocking aura is worthless, no powerful aura and no transmuting auras). By the same logic you could argue that scepter & staff should be a condi only weapon for pvp/WvW, simply because its only viable as condi in PvE right now. 

[Infusion.7149]

32 minutes ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Ah, so scepter is not the supposed PvE support weapon because dagger synergizes better with a trait that PvE Tempest is not able to get? Anet has decided to put alac and elemental bastion in the same traitline, 100% realizing that PvE Tempest will always be forced to pick alac over elemental bastion.

Sure you are correct that for WvW/PvP dagger has been the support weapon, but for PvE its not... If 80% of dagger support comes from aura share, its simply not a support weapon for PvE aslong as PvE can't get any benefit out of it (no elemental bastion, shocking aura is worthless, no powerful aura and no transmuting auras). By the same logic you could argue that scepter & staff should be a condi only weapon for pvp/WvW, simply because its only viable as condi in PvE right now. 

You are aware that up until August patch that changed scepter from 20 cooldown to 10s cooldown that every build site had dagger+warhorn or staff as the pick for heal alac tempest? In fact that is still the pick on LN and hardstuck as well.
https://lucky-noobs.com/builds/heal-tempest-support

https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/elementalist/heal-alacrity-tempest/

Edited November 14, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[the krytan assassin.9235]

15 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You are aware that up until August patch that changed scepter from 20 cooldown to 10s cooldown that every build site had dagger+warhorn or staff as the pick for heal alac tempest? In fact that is still the pick on LN and hardstuck as well.
https://lucky-noobs.com/builds/heal-tempest-support

https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/elementalist/heal-alacrity-tempest/

Ah sure the same sites that don't mention anywhere that EotS and aftershock are able to provide stability & aegis. It couldn't possibly be true that the sites have been outdated for atleast 2.5 months? Hmmm...

Also i noticed that the LN build is using air traitline for perma Fury uptime while already running convergence and heat sync. Do you really think this is optimal? Especially when 99.9% of all groups have Fury already covered? The build even runs powerful aura instead of soothing power, but chooses not to run soothing ice or smothering auras. The only aura synergy it offers is with zephyr's boon and invigorating torrents, but swiftness uptime is already 100%,Fury uptime is around 250%, vigor uptime around 150% and regen uptime around 225%. Maybe you should try out the traits/weapon sets yourself instead of blindly following an internet page. 

Scepter has been the best pick for HAT since June 28th. Since August 23rd dagger doesn't even come close. 

 

Also the scepter weapon skills simply fit the HAT playstyle alot better. The short casting time allow you to frequently swap elements while still making use of all skills. Dagger is an entirely different story: drakes breath and cone of cold feel clunky in the fast cycling of tempest's rotation, burning speed& earthen rush will kitten up your position, especially when tanking. 

 

on top of that the proposed changes for water Trident simply suck. Heal on hit mechanics are annoying AF to play with since it can be countered very easily. Water Trident's upcoming patch is designed & balanced to hit up to 3 players and heal for each player that got hit. Now imagine this for a random pvp match. No one stacks in PvE so the chances of hitting 2/3 people are near impossible. Most likely you'll end up completely missing your target like 50% of the time and therefore getting no heals at all. You think thats fun entertaining game design???

 

 

[Sarm.5923]

Ignorant question here, but what's the point of water attunement being the healing element if one of your weapons doesn't let you heal other players with it? Don't those design intents conflict with each other?

[Serephen.3420]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The shocking aura you are discounting is quite pivotal in PVP scenarios (as the only other access is through overload and "Rebound") and also for outside of PVE you are more likely to take additional healing (and boons) from auras via Elemental Bastion than alacrity. On top of that Water Trident recharge is only 10s in PVE , it's still 20s in PVP/WVW.
The fact that PVP support tempest has always run dagger+focus (not warhorn) or staff is a testament to the fact that scepter is not the heal weapon for tempest. It has not been the PVE heal weapon up until the recent changes to provide alacrity which precludes heal on auras, as evidenced by the [LN] page which hasn't been updated. It is rare to see scepter in WVW outside of roaming and if it's a scepter using elementalist it typically is a spike damage build. 

The question remains why there wasn't a pve/pvp split, with pve keeping the allied heal even if it lost ground targeting. 

[Infusion.7149]

13 minutes ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Ah sure the same sites that don't mention anywhere that EotS and aftershock are able to provide stability & aegis. It couldn't possibly be true that the sites have been outdated for atleast 2.5 months? Hmmm...

Also i noticed that the LN build is using air traitline for perma Fury uptime while already running convergence and heat sync. Do you really think this is optimal? Especially when 99.9% of all groups have Fury already covered? The build even runs powerful aura instead of soothing power, but chooses not to run soothing ice or smothering auras. The only aura synergy it offers is with zephyr's boon and invigorating torrents, but swiftness uptime is already 100%,Fury uptime is around 250%, vigor uptime around 150% and regen uptime around 225%. Maybe you should try out the traits/weapon sets yourself instead of blindly following an internet page. 

Scepter has been the best pick for HAT since June 28th. Since August 23rd dagger doesn't even come close. 

 

Also the scepter weapon skills simply fit the HAT playstyle alot better. The short casting time allow you to frequently swap elements while still making use of all skills. Dagger is an entirely different story: drakes breath and cone of cold feel clunky in the fast cycling of tempest's rotation, burning speed& earthen rush will kitten up your position, especially when tanking. 

 

on top of that the proposed changes for water Trident simply suck. Heal on hit mechanics are annoying AF to play with since it can be countered very easily. Water Trident's upcoming patch is designed & balanced to hit up to 3 players and heal for each player that got hit. Now imagine this for a random pvp match. No one stacks in PvE so the chances of hitting 2/3 people are near impossible. Most likely you'll end up completely missing your target like 50% of the time and therefore getting no heals at all. You think thats fun entertaining game design???

 

 

It's funny you say that it is outdated, when I clearly stated before the August patch.
The point of the build on LN is to provide fury and using Fresh Air it has better resilience to being interrupted, they clearly state if you want condi clear that you run fire. Fury isn't 100% uptime on engineer (no scope is 4s on 8s cooldown) and on ranger (Spotter is 3s on 10 cooldown) , mesmer (Master Fencer is 4s on 8s cooldown), nor any power ele just using weapons. 
In addition, if the Water Trident hits even one person it already made a difference if the damage is increased to the point that it is not just a heal skill. In PVP melee specs need to be in melee, people don't stack by choice.
----

@ Sarm : You have an offhand warhorn or dagger that heals people.

9 minutes ago, Sarm.5923 said:

Ignorant question here, but what's the point of water attunement being the healing element if one of your weapons doesn't let you heal other players with it? Don't those design intents conflict with each other?

Edited November 14, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[the krytan assassin.9235]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

In fact that is still the pick on LN and hardstuck as well.

 

2 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It's funny you say that it is outdated, when I clearly stated before the August patch

Cant be bothered to fix the rest of your nonsense, but couldn't resist posting this one

[Serephen.3420]

8 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It's funny you say that it is outdated, when I clearly stated before the August patch.
The point of the build on LN is to provide fury and using Fresh Air it has better resilience to being interrupted, they clearly state if you want condi clear that you run fire. Fury isn't 100% uptime on engineer (no scope is 4s on 8s cooldown) and on ranger (Spotter is 3s on 10 cooldown) , mesmer (Master Fencer is 4s on 8s cooldown), nor any power ele just using weapons. 
In addition, if the Water Trident hits even one person it already made a difference if the damage is increased to the point that it is not just a heal skill. In PVP melee specs need to be in melee, people don't stack by choice.
----

@ Sarm : You have an offhand warhorn or dagger that heals people.

Ok so the 10 eles who play pvp can enjoy that. Why is this in the pve balance patch? It should have kept the allied heals for pve regardless of the ammo change.

 

As for wvw, hammer, dagger and staff will still be better for larger fights regardless of the current changes to scepter. Speaking of which this is at least the second rework it's gotten recently. Still waiting on more for dagger mainhand and staff.

 

Please don't tell me channeled cone of cold is a remotely good heal compared to the massive ranged burst heal from scepter.  Dagger was used for it's easy aura access with smothering and powrful auras for condi removal on things like slothasaur, not for any strong healing. 

 

Do I think it's the endof the world? Certainly not, but it's not nearly as amazing as you make it out to be either.

[Infusion.7149]

16 minutes ago, Serephen.3420 said:

Ok so the 10 eles who play pvp can enjoy that. Why is this in the pve balance patch? It should have kept the allied heals for pve regardless of the ammo change.

 

As for wvw, hammer, dagger and staff will still be better for larger fights regardless of the current changes to scepter. Speaking of which this is at least the second rework it's gotten recently. Still waiting on more for dagger mainhand and staff.

 

Please don't tell me channeled cone of cold is a remotely good heal compared to the massive ranged burst heal from scepter.  Dagger was used for it's easy aura access with smothering and powrful auras for condi removal on things like slothasaur, not for any strong healing. 

 

Do I think it's the endof the world? Certainly not, but it's not nearly as amazing as you make it out to be either.

On its own the water trident change isn't that large for DPS eles since it will be 1.6 coefficient in PVE and hit 3 targets (which fits the trident part of the name better also). On the whole, the amount of AoE added to scepter is quite significant as is the rock barrier resistance and barrier change.

• Shatterstone is going from 1.6 to 2.0 coefficient and no longer going to do nothing if targets walk out of the AoE since it double hits
• Lightning strike is going to cleave 3 targets and is going from 1.2 to 1.5 coefficient while the notes say nothing about giving it a cast time
• Blinding Flash is going to blind 3 targets and becomes an ammo skill
• Dust Devil is going to blind in AoE and cripple bleeding targets on following strikes 

In WVW hammer might gain viability for DPS catalyst since the orbs are no longer projectile, but staff and dagger have always been stronger picks for heal elementalist in competitive modes due to auras. Scepter might get some use in smaller groups for DPS due to a 0.6 coefficient initial hit of shatterstone, AoE lightning strike, and a tracking Dragon's tooth would make it more usable in openfield. Scepter autos don't really cleave (and I've never been impressed with the air auto chain despite it hitting 3) so you probably want to use Dragon's tooth, phoenix, and shatterstone often against larger groups as those aren't projectile.

This means that in mobile scenarios elementalist has a stronger ranged damage option since staff is reliant on slow attacks such as Ice Spike, Eruption, Chain Lightning, Lava Font (DoT), and meteor shower which isn't remotely usable when moving. Staff could really use a faster autoattack on air attunement though especially given the subsequent hits to the nearby targets is lower than the initial hit.

Arenanet has stated they want to narrow down the usage of each skill to one primary purpose ("purity of purpose"). If they cave in to people wanting a "burst" heal on water trident it will probably mean it only will be used for healing meaning it will likely be completely unchanged and have its meager damage removed. It is unrealistic for them to implement a 2 ammo 1.6 coefficient attack that cleaves and also heals for more than 1K in AoE. 

[Serephen.3420]

7 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

On its own the water trident change isn't that large for DPS eles since it will be 1.6 coefficient in PVE and hit 3 targets (which fits the trident part of the name better also). On the whole, the amount of AoE added to scepter is quite significant as is the rock barrier resistance and barrier change.

• Shatterstone is going from 1.6 to 2.0 coefficient and no longer going to do nothing if targets walk out of the AoE since it double hits
• Lightning strike is going to cleave 3 targets and is going from 1.2 to 1.5 coefficient while the notes say nothing about giving it a cast time
• Blinding Flash is going to blind 3 targets and becomes an ammo skill
• Dust Devil is going to blind in AoE and cripple bleeding targets on following strikes 

In WVW hammer might gain viability for DPS catalyst since the orbs are no longer projectile, but staff and dagger have always been stronger picks for heal elementalist in competitive modes due to auras. Scepter might get some use in smaller groups for DPS due to a 0.6 coefficient initial hit of shatterstone, AoE lightning strike, and a tracking Dragon's tooth would make it more usable in openfield. Scepter autos don't really cleave (and I've never been impressed with the air auto chain despite it hitting 3) so you probably want to use Dragon's tooth, phoenix, and shatterstone often against larger groups as those aren't projectile.

This means that in mobile scenarios elementalist has a stronger ranged damage option since staff is reliant on slow attacks such as Ice Spike, Eruption, Chain Lightning, Lava Font (DoT), and meteor shower which isn't remotely usable when moving. Staff could really use a faster autoattack on air attunement though especially given the subsequent hits to the nearby targets is lower than the initial hit.

Arenanet has stated they want to narrow down the usage of each skill to one primary purpose ("purity of purpose"). If they cave in to people wanting a "burst" heal on water trident it will probably mean it only will be used for healing meaning it will likely be completely unchanged and have its meager damage removed. It is unrealistic for them to implement a 2 ammo 1.6 coefficient attack that cleaves and also heals for more than 1K in AoE. 

Ok, well then I sure hope they work on updating mainhand dagger to work well as a support pair to qarhorn outside of the old aura spam build from wvw. Especially for the water attunement skills to be completely reworked.