Warriors got kinda stiffed by Anet when it comes to raiding

[OriOri.8724]

@cryorion.9532 said:Yes, it is easy to say as mesmer, which has 2 guaranteed spots all the time + mirages as broken DPS atm. Such nice class diversity in squads :)It is really strange that they gave main might stacking source to druids which were already super strong in terms of providing various buffs and heals.Oh well.

I've complained in other threads about chronomancers required role in raids. And mirage is currently being affected by a bug, its damage is not supposed to be that high, and I do not agree with its damage being that high. I want its damage to be nerfed, I want changes to come to the game that no longer make chronomancer required in raid squads.

[otto.5684]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:So wait ... warriors are stiffed because they don't have 2 guaranteed spots anymore? That's just WOW. You do realize that even having one guaranteed spot is a luxury most classes don't have right? If the game was well balanced, NO classes would have guaranteed spots. So basically, you are complaining the game took a more balanced direction ... ><

The request is to bring power builds to be raid viable as dps similar to condi build. How and why shouldn’t that be doable?

Trivia, currently Mesmer can fulfill two spots on a raid: tank/support as chrono, dps as mirage. So, please go to Mesmer forums and complain that Mesmer should be nerfed cuz they can play 2 roles in a raid.

What a bunch of balaony.

If that's the request, it's pretty poorly worded in the OP.

Still, that request makes no sense anyways. If you raid and you care about your DPS, you bring whatever meta build it happens to be, which changes all the time because the game evolves. In case you haven't noticed, there isn't and never has been much redundancy on meta builds for a class, by the fact that the game has constantly evolving meta builds in the first place. There is your reason for why it's not doable; it's simply not necessary and has no value in doing so.

Trivia ... 1. Warriors are not hard done by for raids, even after the nerfs 2. Complaining they lost 2 guaranteed raid slots is nonsense.

I still do not understand what is the logic behind warrior power builds not being raid viable. None of what you said justifies or explains that. And I do not get this “2 guranteed spots.” The only person making that claim is you. And PS warrior is not even required since the might stacking can be done without warrior at all.

And the meta chaning is probably one of the dumbest justifications for something not to be viable I have ever heard.

[Obtena.7952]

@otto.5684 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:So wait ... warriors are stiffed because they don't have 2 guaranteed spots anymore? That's just WOW. You do realize that even having one guaranteed spot is a luxury most classes don't have right? If the game was well balanced, NO classes would have guaranteed spots. So basically, you are complaining the game took a more balanced direction ... ><

The request is to bring power builds to be raid viable as dps similar to condi build. How and why shouldn’t that be doable?

Trivia, currently Mesmer can fulfill two spots on a raid: tank/support as chrono, dps as mirage. So, please go to Mesmer forums and complain that Mesmer should be nerfed cuz they can play 2 roles in a raid.

What a bunch of balaony.

If that's the request, it's pretty poorly worded in the OP.

Still, that request makes no sense anyways. If you raid and you care about your DPS, you bring whatever meta build it happens to be, which changes all the time because the game evolves. In case you haven't noticed, there isn't and never has been much redundancy on meta builds for a class, by the fact that the game has constantly evolving meta builds in the first place. There is your reason for why it's not doable; it's simply not necessary and has no value in doing so.

Trivia ... 1. Warriors are not hard done by for raids, even after the nerfs 2. Complaining they lost 2 guaranteed raid slots is nonsense.

I still do not understand what is the logic behind warrior power builds not being raid viable. None of what you said justifies or explains that. And I do not get this “2 guranteed spots.” The only person making that claim is you. And PS warrior is not even required since the might stacking can be done without warrior at all.

And the meta chaning is probably one of the dumbest justifications for something not to be viable I have ever heard.

Well, it can't be any more simply explained ... Anet doesn't chase their game changes with follow up class changes to provide classes with multiple meta builds; that would be stupid to do so because the game never stops changing. As the game changes, so does the meta and the game changes often. There is nothing dumb about game changes affecting the meta ... what else would do so?

If you don't get this '2 guarenteed spots' stuff, obviously it's you that haven't read the thread and aren't following. Hint, read the first post.

[Crossaber.8934]

See how many players play necro and warrior main is reducing, it is why warrior got nerfed seriously and scourge wasn’t got touched, well even buffed a bit in recent patch.

[Oglaf.1074]

@otto.5684 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:So wait ... warriors are stiffed because they don't have 2 guaranteed spots anymore? That's just WOW. You do realize that even having one guaranteed spot is a luxury most classes don't have right? If the game was well balanced, NO classes would have guaranteed spots. So basically, you are complaining the game took a more balanced direction ... ><

The request is to bring power builds to be raid viable as dps similar to condi build. How and why shouldn’t that be doable?

Trivia, currently Mesmer can fulfill two spots on a raid: tank/support as chrono, dps as mirage. So, please go to Mesmer forums and complain that Mesmer should be nerfed cuz they can play 2 roles in a raid.

What a bunch of balaony.

No the "request" is to make Warriors viable in other roles other than Bannerbitch after our one and only saving grace (Might stacking) was nerfed.

Like, for example, make Warriors able to compete in the DPS race as to let us in on a DPS spot in raids. A Warrior who forgoes all the Support aspects (Banners, PS) and specs solely for DPS should be able to compete. Currently, nobody is going to let a Warrior have a DPS spot over a "proper" DPS class.

I highly suggest people re-read what I actually wrote rather than getting hung up on the "two guaranteed raid spots"-bit. That is not part of my argument (as I've repeatedly stated by now). It is merely the introduction/background to the actual argument I am making after it.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Oglaf.1074 said:Both Necromancer and Engineer are preferable to Warrior in the DPS role now.

I'm not arguing that the Support Warrior is obsolete - you are mistaken there.

I'm saying that once they have a Warrior already, there is no room for another because you're a sub-par everything else. They already have a Chrono? Well that's fine, even if a Chrono is not needed in a Chrono-specific role, they can still DPS. Same with Ranger (especially now, post-patch where Rangers are by far the most versatile raid class). Warrior simply does not have this: if they already have a Warrior, you're done for. There is no other role for you to fill than that one Warrior-specific one - the Bannerbitch.

I cannot think of any other class that has this restriction. The only ones that come to mind are Chrono and Ranger, but as I already mentioned they can fill many different roles to avoid this restriction.

Well... Condi scourge is 1k dps behind condi warrior and condi engi is 500 dps ahead of warrior condi dps. The pro on the warrior side is it's access to hard CC, The pro on the scourge side is epidemic and the pro on the engi side is that he provide a unique buff that boost condi damage of it's team. If the warrior need to contend against those 2 he definitely have a chance.

I agree that the warrior left the top PvE profession ranking, however, he still have a build that make him almost mandatory and can still hold it's own if he contend for a dps spot against the balanced dps professions. (Yes, let's face it, ele has never been a balanced dps profession and mesmer is currently breaking the roof. Thiefs are miraculously among the top tier dps. Guardian and renegade are heavily dependant on their teammates for their dps. Ranger prove that when they can break free from the pet mechanism, they are competitive and even outdps quite a few professions. There is a lot of work before guild wars 2 become balanced but 30k should be the norm for condi dps and warrior reach this.)

[SmashGd.1056]

Warrior has never been in such a good spot. Just because you can't raid with power build I'm sorry but get over it. Power builds are king in pvp and if a power build did as much as a Condi there would be no point to taking Condi.

Warrior is unique now cause you need one and only one. Which increases demand even though it decreases the amount of warriors in raids. Class diversity is healthy the mirror comp 2:2:2 was horrible, who wants to be just another number? and now we don't have to be forces to build might duration so I can run a more maimized dps build and bring 2 banners. Warriors are still one of the top classes and probably will always be.

[Oglaf.1074]

I never mentioned Power.

[cryorion.9532]

Shouldn't people be able to choose what they want to play? If condi or power? In both PvE and PvP?"if a power build did as much as a Condi there would be no point to taking Condi." IMO, it is not about "no point to taking Condi", but rather because people prefer to play power over condi. And they are basically forced to play condi mostly because it is the only high level PvE viable build atm.I kinda believe, that if anet made power warrior dps and condi warrior dps to be close, people would play power dps much more, because it is what people actually prefer.And I am not saying to make power warrior more optimal than condi. I just dream of power dps to be actually viable, aka roughly around 30k average dps, with actual trait synergy, without disgusting traits like Stick and Move.

[TheSlothArmada.6709]

@cryorion.9532 said:Shouldn't people be able to choose what they want to play? If condi or power? In both PvE and PvP?"if a power build did as much as a Condi there would be no point to taking Condi." IMO, it is not about "no point to taking Condi", but rather because people prefer to play power over condi. And they are basically forced to play condi mostly because it is the only high level PvE viable build atm.I kinda believe, that if anet made power warrior dps and condi warrior dps to be close, people would play power dps much more, because it is what people actually prefer.And I am not saying to make power warrior more optimal than condi. I just dream of power dps to be actually viable, aka roughly around 30k average dps, with actual trait synergy, without disgusting traits like Stick and Move.

Amen ;-;

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

@cryorion.9532 said:Shouldn't people be able to choose what they want to play? If condi or power? In both PvE and PvP?"if a power build did as much as a Condi there would be no point to taking Condi." IMO, it is not about "no point to taking Condi", but rather because people prefer to play power over condi. And they are basically forced to play condi mostly because it is the only high level PvE viable build atm.I kinda believe, that if anet made power warrior dps and condi warrior dps to be close, people would play power dps much more, because it is what people actually prefer.And I am not saying to make power warrior more optimal than condi. I just dream of power dps to be actually viable, aka roughly around 30k average dps, with actual trait synergy, without disgusting traits like Stick and Move.

What?!?!?! Stick and move isn't a good DPS idea, you mean me keeping on dodging when my endurance bar is full leaving me open for a boss'es massive AOE, just so I can squeak out a little bit more damage isn't optimal? Although honestly if anet wanted to actually do something with stick and move they could do it related to leap finishers which we have several, and make it a stacking bonus which they apparently love to do to warrior. It could even have synergy with "Powerful Synergy" silly I know. The only problem would be that it would make it very similar to peak performance. Its just a thought I had.

[Oglaf.1074]

Stick & Move is one of those things that sound neat in theory, but is quite bad in practice since you're encouraged to save up your dodge rolls in Raids.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

@Oglaf.1074 said:Stick & Move is one of those things that sound neat in theory, but is quite bad in practice since you're encouraged to save up your dodge rolls in Raids.

I agree that's why I think they should make it leap finishers or any of our movement skills TBH would be nice.

[Jzaku.9765]

@Oglaf.1074 said:Currently, nobody is going to let a Warrior have a DPS spot over a "proper" DPS class.

[citation needed]

Except there are benefits to bringing 2 warriors still that didn't suddenly disappear with the patch, freedom to take FGJ to provide perma fury to the team, significantly more cc than any of the POF dps especs, and incredibly stable and consistent dps with an easy rotation.

Just for reference, Scourge benchmarks at 29.5k, bannerbot warrior benches at 31k, and mirage benches at 35k on small hitbox. Basically for most pugs nobody cares what dps you play unless the Commander was an actual class nazi.

This whole thread is just pretentious outrage.

[Mikeskies.1536]

@Jzaku.9765 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:Currently, nobody is going to let a Warrior have a DPS spot over a "proper" DPS class.

[citation needed]

Except there are benefits to bringing 2 warriors still that didn't suddenly disappear with the patch, freedom to take FGJ to provide perma fury to the team, significantly more cc than any of the POF dps especs, and incredibly stable and consistent dps with an easy rotation.

Just for reference, Scourge benchmarks at 29.5k,

bannerbot warrior

benches at 31k, and mirage benches at 35k on small hitbox. Basically for most pugs nobody cares what dps you play unless the Commander was an actual class kitten.

This whole thread is just pretentious outrage.

Pure DPS Warrior is practically tied in DPS with everyone except Weaver and Mirage. Once Mirage is bugfixed, both Mirage specs will drop to 32k as well.

[Obtena.7952]

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:So wait ... warriors are stiffed because they don't have 2 guaranteed spots anymore? That's just WOW. You do realize that even having one guaranteed spot is a luxury most classes don't have right? If the game was well balanced, NO classes would have guaranteed spots. So basically, you are complaining the game took a more balanced direction ... ><

The request is to bring power builds to be raid viable as dps similar to condi build. How and why shouldn’t that be doable?

Trivia, currently Mesmer can fulfill two spots on a raid: tank/support as chrono, dps as mirage. So, please go to Mesmer forums and complain that Mesmer should be nerfed cuz they can play 2 roles in a raid.

What a bunch of balaony.

No the "request" is to make Warriors viable in other roles other than Bannerbitch after our one and only saving grace (Might stacking) was nerfed.

Like, for example, make Warriors able to compete in the DPS race as to let us in on a DPS spot in raids. A Warrior who forgoes all the Support aspects (Banners, PS) and specs solely for DPS should be able to compete. Currently, nobody is going to let a Warrior have a DPS spot over a "proper" DPS class.

I highly suggest people re-read what I actually wrote rather than getting hung up on the "two guaranteed raid spots"-bit. That is not part of my argument (as I've repeatedly stated by now). It is merely the introduction/background to the actual argument I am making after it.

That's a very narrowminded view. The bigger picture here is that there shouldn't have been any broad roles for specific classes to fill in the first place; the changes to might stacking illustrate this well, along with GOTL changes, etc... In essence, you're still complaining about the 'attack' Anet is making on the sanctity of the offensive buffing role that cemented Warrior with 2 spots in a raid team. This complaint is unwarranted; their should have never been a guaranteed role or position to buff offense, no less TWO!!! That's the kind of thing that many people can SHARE ... SHARING!!!! TEAMWORK!!!! The focus on that isn't a hang-up, it's the whole premise of your argument in the first place, and it's wrong!

The idea that no one will let a warrior in a team because they aren't 'proper' DPS is a whole bunch of disingenuous sensationalism that fools no one. If anything, toning down their strength in offensive buffing is an ENABLING change to warriors that want to play a purely DPS build because teams will have a GREATER pool of offensive buffer classes to choose from. If you don't recognize the offensive team benefits that a warrior brings to a team ... or that OTHER classes can bring beside warrior, then it's likely you aren't even qualified to complain it being nerfed in the first place. The fact is that as there is more equalization between classes for the team benefits they bring to a raid, the MORE accepting people will be of the various classes that exist, or alternative builds that you want to play as a warrior ... a GOOD thing for the game. You simply don't want to share your position as a necessary class that sucked up 2 spots with a restricted build. I'm doubtful Anet is open to considering changes to the game that foster those kinds of selfish ideals.

[Dadnir.5038]

Well... he started a poll on the raid/dungeon/fractal subforum and 87% of the players that answered proved that the op is wrong and that the dps warrior is welcome in any raid group.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Dadnir.5038 said:Well... he started a poll on the raid/dungeon/fractal subforum and 87% of the players that answered proved that the op is wrong and that the dps warrior is welcome in any raid group.

That's because people who actually do raid and play warrior in a raid setting know that the class is fine.

It went from 2 guaranteed spots and "that's it", to: 1 guaranteed spot and potentially 1-2 more as dps.

The reason warrior did not "get anything in return" for the changes is simple: the class was in a very good state to begin with.

Warrior right now offers:

• banners (your 1 guaranteed spot as banner slave)
• top tier dps on a simple rotation (https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/)
• a ton of defiance bar break (huge deal since it actually allows for taking along higher damage dps classes with less cc)
• very good cleave and area damage
• backup fury from FGJ

I've spent approximately 1/3 to 1/2 my raiding time on a cPS warrior (I'm at 400+ LI atm with an 8 month break after HoT. Suffice to say, I've full cleared almost weekly the past 6 months) and have played both bannerslave as well as dps berserker post change. The class is fine and will do well on every encounter (even KC which is probably the worst fight for warrior you can easily beat the required dps per class needed).

[starlinvf.1358]

@cryorion.9532 said:Yes, it is easy to say as mesmer, which has 2 guaranteed spots all the time + mirages as broken DPS atm. Such nice class diversity in squads :)It is really strange that they gave main might stacking source to druids which were already super strong in terms of providing various buffs and heals.Oh well.

Design wise thats all its supposed to have. Druid was concepted as a pure support Spec, with the GoTL unique buff to make it desirable over both Ele and Herald's natural ability to stack might. Its was literally designed to be a mandatory slot, as it only served 2 very specific functions that are only demanded for in Raids. However, Condi Druid was anomaly due to ranger having broken DPS scaling on burning..... in fact, Burning is a reoccurring problem with Class balance, because even moderate amounts of it is enough to push any class into the top DPS benchmarks.

Looking back at the Meta, the only reason Druid was taken was for GotL's ability to bypass the boon cap, and push up DPS. The healing role was then unilaterally dropped since Tempest could handle that role in 90% of team comps, leading to Druid being a Buff/DPS; while Druid's heal potential is only really useful in covering mistakes, and not worth taking stats for. Just like Chronotank, the ability to shunt multiple roles into singular builds is both a blessing and a curse, since it does directly reward higher player performance.... but at the same time, the Raid community now just assumes all Chorno's MUST perform that job or be dropped for someone who will. Initially, the rhetoric I kept getting from Raiders is that "everyone has to carry their weight" .... But seeing how many players are refusing to do Chorno now, its painfully obvious that 2-3 players are being saddled with carrying the whole team.