What GW2 really lacks to me (in comparison to WoW)

[Bladestrom.6425]

17 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

The gameplay needs to be rewarding in either case in order for the game to be worth playing.  That doesn't speak to the question of whether or not the rewards are rewarding.  While horizontal and vertical progression both have their pros and cons, arguably one of the negatives of horizontal progression is that the rewards feel lackluster.  You never get that lift of finding upgrades.  It's mostly just small amounts of gold so you can buy something later.  It's hard for that to feel rewarding.

horizontal has far far more rewards (certainly not just gold), the only difference is that you you set you own goals and being top tier XX power of the month is not one of them.   Its not lacklustre or a negative for those that love complex freeform objective setting.  It is perfectly valid to want that gear race, and that's why vertical and horizonal both have a place.

[AliamRationem.5172]

35 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

horizontal has far far more rewards (certainly not just gold), the only difference is that you you set you own goals and being top tier XX power of the month is not one of them.   Its not lacklustre or a negative for those that love complex freeform objective setting.  It is perfectly valid to want that gear race, and that's why vertical and horizonal both have a place.

The only reward a horizontal progression game offers that cannot be offered by a vertical progression game is gear that never has to be replaced.  In all other ways the rewards they may offer are the same.  So, while you may prefer one or the other for various reasons, it's not accurate to say that horizontal progression offers "far, far more rewards" than vertical progression.  By definition, horizontal progression sets a limitation on itself with regard to rewards that is not shared by a vertical progression game.

[Bladestrom.6425]

5 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

The only reward a horizontal progression game offers that cannot be offered by a vertical progression game is gear that never has to be replaced.  In all other ways the rewards they may offer are the same.  So, while you may prefer one or the other for various reasons, it's not accurate to say that horizontal progression offers "far, far more rewards" than vertical progression.  By definition, horizontal progression sets a limitation on itself with regard to rewards that is not shared by a vertical progression game.

 

Your right. in vertical the primary objective is transient numbers. perhaps my use of of the word reward is wrong, what horizontal offers is far more complex and rich end game objectives that are first class entities.  For example in WOW it had crafting, but really it was just another way of getting another path to + numbers on your dmg output, whereas in GW2 you craft a glyph and it goes into your repository of tools that you can use forever.  Its a meaningful reward in GW, in WOW its a short term buff.

Think about that,  People don't treat crafting in WOW is a meaningful thing, ie not a first class entity from an objective perspective, its just part of that single transient number game.  so yeah crafting rewards are richer in this case, and that's just one aspect.

 

Again im obviously biased towards horizontal, but i do understand Vertical has a value for many who want that linear approach, its all good. 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by vesica tempestas.1563

[AliamRationem.5172]

52 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

 

Your right. in vertical the primary objective is transient numbers. perhaps my use of of the word reward is wrong, what horizontal offers is far more complex and rich end game objectives that are first class entities.  For example in WOW it had crafting, but really it was just another way of getting another path to + numbers on your dmg output, whereas in GW2 you craft a glyph and it goes into your repository of tools that you can use forever.  Its a meaningful reward in GW, in WOW its a short term buff.

Think about that,  People don't treat crafting in WOW is a meaningful thing, ie not a first class entity from an objective perspective, its just part of that single transient number game.  so yeah crafting rewards are richer in this case, and that's just one aspect.

 

Again im obviously biased towards horizontal, but i do understand Vertical has a value for many who want that linear approach, its all good. 

 

I think it's a poor comparison.  First because I don't think it's accurate.  For example, when I played WoW I recall crafting a variety of novelties, consumables, augmentations, etc. No different from GW2. 

Even if that weren't the case, there is no inherent advantage to horizontal progression in this regard.  Vertical progression is capable of offering any reward that may be offered in horizontal progression as well as gear upgrades which are restricted in horizontal progression.

But I do understand why not everyone prefers the gear treadmill.  Neither system is all good or all bad.

[Ashen.2907]

5 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I think it's a poor comparison.  First because I don't think it's accurate.  For example, when I played WoW I recall crafting a variety of novelties, consumables, augmentations, etc. No different from GW2. 

Even if that weren't the case, there is no inherent advantage to horizontal progression in this regard.  Vertical progression is capable of offering any reward that may be offered in horizontal progression as well as gear upgrades which are restricted in horizontal progression.

But I do understand why not everyone prefers the gear treadmill.  Neither system is all good or all bad.

Don't forget that those gear upgrades in a vertical progression game are limited too.

They are like if GW2 rewards were consumables with a timer counting down to expiration. 

[michixlol.9340]

On 12/9/2022 at 10:10 PM, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

 

Agree vertical and horizontal simply being different game formats that appeal to different people,  but you lost it on vertical being more appealing.  Vertical is more appealing to those that prefer and want vertical progression, vice versa for horizontal.  FF14 has grown as it offers a less divisive and cynical vertical progression game than wow, the latter of which has pretty much fouled its own nest.

Vertical appeals to those that love the gear chase and meter wars, horizontal appeals to those that want a rich end game that is not centred around this.  Plenty space for both in the market.

Its very possible horizontal appeals to older players in general where vertical appeals more to younger players, due to a mixture of evolving perspective on life and commitments, but that's just a guess.

 

I'd say vertical appeals to those that don't want to think that much. I mean, not exactly think, but to those that just want to be given the experience and not be forced to build their own experience. And I'd bet most people are kind of lazy. And that's why I also think most people want a path given to them, but with choices and crossroads on the way. GW2 doesn't really give you this one way that spreads into several ones in time, but it just gives you one crossroad with many many different ways at one point. 

[michixlol.9340]

11 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Unlike a vertical progression game, once you acquire legendary gear there is nothing else to acquire in terms of gear.  That's likely the reason legendary gear is so long-term.  Once you get there you may find yourself wondering what to do next?  That's the aimless feel of horizontal progression.  You're always having to come up with your own goal.  The game doesn't provide the linear structure that vertical progression does in the form of "do this to get the gear to do that" and so on.

 

exactly that. First you have to find your own goal. And when it's done, you are not directed to the next one, but instead you again have to sit down and find your new goal.

[michixlol.9340]

The thing about the vertical progression is just that you also play to unlock new parts of the game. In horizontal progression you have everything at the start. You don't play to get into new battlegrounds, new dungeons, new storylines, new raids or new zones. That is the case until you're at max level maybe, but then ...

[Vayne.8563]

On 12/9/2022 at 11:53 AM, VanDBellen.4913 said:

Thank you for the answers! I think legendary armor will be the way to go then. Achievements are neat, but also very chaotic in a way. The game really wants you to make your own goals. Anyways, thank you, especially Rogue.8235 for the long text!

Achievements aren't neat. Achievements are how you navigate what's in the game. Different achievements have different rewards and the achievements you go for will have the rewards you want. For example you can get a couple of 20 slot bags from achievements and if you have living world even a few 32 slot bags. These are things you can go for.

 

Guild Wars 2 involves picking your own goals, instead of a company spoon-feeding you goals.  But if you ignore the achievement panel, how will you list your goals? You can track up to 20 achievements at the same time. I usually have short, mid and long term achievements tracked, and now I have direction.

 

Achievements are a side-show in WoW, so you come here and treat the achievement panel the same way. It's not neat, it's your path to what you want to get done. It's your quest log.  The only difference is that you choose what you're working on. In addition to that, things like mastery points are ALL found in the achievement panel. 

Edit: When new festivals come out, the achievement panel is usually a tour of what's available to do.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Vayne.8563

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, VanDBellen.4913 said:

 

I'd say vertical appeals to those that don't want to think that much. I mean, not exactly think, but to those that just want to be given the experience and not be forced to build their own experience. And I'd bet most people are kind of lazy. And that's why I also think most people want a path given to them, but with choices and crossroads on the way. GW2 doesn't really give you this one way that spreads into several ones in time, but it just gives you one crossroad with many many different ways at one point. 

Yeah, WoW players are lazy while GW2 players are intellectuals.  No biased opinions here, huh? 🙄

[DexterousGecko.6328]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Achievements aren't neat. Achievements are how you navigate what's in the game. Different achievements have different rewards and the achievements you go for will have the rewards you want. For example you can get a couple of 20 slot bags from achievements and if you have living world even a few 32 slot bags. These are things you can go for.

 

Guild Wars 2 involves picking your own goals, instead of a company spoon-feeding you goals.  But if you ignore the achievement panel, how will you list your goals? You can track up to 20 achievements at the same time. I usually have short, mid and long term achievements tracked, and now I have direction.

 

Achievements are a side-show in WoW, so you come here and treat the achievement panel the same way. It's not neat, it's your path to what you want to get done. It's your quest log.  The only difference is that you choose what you're working on. In addition to that, things like mastery points are ALL found in the achievement panel. 

Edit: When new festivals come out, the achievement panel is usually a tour of what's available to do.

 

hmm, I never thought of it like that. That's actually a great way of framing achievements. I often get frustrated with collections in GW2, but if you treat them as short/medium/long term goals, it can give you focus. I'm going to try that out.

 

Great post, thanks for this.

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, DexterousGecko.6328 said:

 

hmm, I never thought of it like that. That's actually a great way of framing achievements. I often get frustrated with collections in GW2, but if you treat them as short/medium/long term goals, it can give you focus. I'm going to try that out.

 

Great post, thanks for this.

Glad I could help. 🙂

To add to what I said, you can even re-arrange the achievements in your watchlist so that you change the order they appear in the top right of your screen.  Whenever I'm working on a specific achievement, I drag it to the top, so I can easily see it while I'm working on it.

[michixlol.9340]

3 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Achievements aren't neat. Achievements are how you navigate what's in the game. Different achievements have different rewards and the achievements you go for will have the rewards you want. For example you can get a couple of 20 slot bags from achievements and if you have living world even a few 32 slot bags. These are things you can go for.

 

Guild Wars 2 involves picking your own goals, instead of a company spoon-feeding you goals.  But if you ignore the achievement panel, how will you list your goals? You can track up to 20 achievements at the same time. I usually have short, mid and long term achievements tracked, and now I have direction.

 

Achievements are a side-show in WoW, so you come here and treat the achievement panel the same way. It's not neat, it's your path to what you want to get done. It's your quest log.  The only difference is that you choose what you're working on. In addition to that, things like mastery points are ALL found in the achievement panel. 

Edit: When new festivals come out, the achievement panel is usually a tour of what's available to do.

 

I can see that, but as first glance the system is pretty much the same as in WoW. If you delve deeper into it, you may see the advantages and rewards and adventures you can have with this system. But then again, it could actually be better or more classified. It is pretty okay. But there are so many Tabs in there and tabs beneath tabs.. It could be a bit better organized and more present to one that doesn't know about it. Idk. Or not. To me it's okay as it is. 

[michixlol.9340]

2 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Yeah, WoW players are lazy while GW2 players are intellectuals.  No biased opinions here, huh? 🙄

 

You get the wrong idea here. I played WoW so very much.. you could barely imagine. I don't put the players into categories. I say people in general are pretty lazy. Or a big part of people. Seemingly.

[Vayne.8563]

16 minutes ago, VanDBellen.4913 said:

 

I can see that, but as first glance the system is pretty much the same as in WoW. If you delve deeper into it, you may see the advantages and rewards and adventures you can have with this system. But then again, it could actually be better or more classified. It is pretty okay. But there are so many Tabs in there and tabs beneath tabs.. It could be a bit better organized and more present to one that doesn't know about it. Idk. Or not. To me it's okay as it is. 

Yep, it's messy I don't think anyone would say otherwise.  But that doesn't mean it's not useful, that's all I'm saying.  There's room for improvement for sure.

[Silent.6137]

55 minutes ago, VanDBellen.4913 said:

 

I can see that, but as first glance the system is pretty much the same as in WoW. If you delve deeper into it, you may see the advantages and rewards and adventures you can have with this system. But then again, it could actually be better or more classified. It is pretty okay. But there are so many Tabs in there and tabs beneath tabs.. It could be a bit better organized and more present to one that doesn't know about it. Idk. Or not. To me it's okay as it is. 

For new players, it can certainly be overwhelming. However, there are filters (gear icon) to the right of the Search box: Achievements, Rewards, Titles and Mastery (that can be filtered further). This will make searching for what you need lots easier.

[McWelp.1723]

I think it lacks interesting loot. But its a design choice by devs and not too many mmo's with horizontal progression after max level, so cant really complain about it too much.

Loot in GW2 (open world) is just 'open containers, dump whatever you got to material storage'

Edited December 11, 2022 by McWelp.1723

[michixlol.9340]

9 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Yep, it's messy I don't think anyone would say otherwise.  But that doesn't mean it's not useful, that's all I'm saying.  There's room for improvement for sure.

 

No it definitely is useful! But one has to recognize that. 

 

8 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

For new players, it can certainly be overwhelming. However, there are filters (gear icon) to the right of the Search box: Achievements, Rewards, Titles and Mastery (that can be filtered further). This will make searching for what you need lots easier.

 

Yep, I saw that. It is possible to search for what you want. Makes it not much less overwhelming for new players tho. 

[michixlol.9340]

7 hours ago, McWelp.1723 said:

I think it lacks interesting loot. But its a design choice by devs and not too many mmo's with horizontal progression after max level, so cant really complain about it too much.

Loot in GW2 (open world) is just 'open containers, dump whatever you got to material storage'

 

Yes, I mean, that's part of what I meant. You can do everything, but most things you get for doing them aren't really essential, because it is not something specific, but pretty much.. anything. 

[Gehenna.3625]

On 12/10/2022 at 10:54 PM, VanDBellen.4913 said:

 

I'd say vertical appeals to those that don't want to think that much. I mean, not exactly think, but to those that just want to be given the experience and not be forced to build their own experience. And I'd bet most people are kind of lazy. And that's why I also think most people want a path given to them, but with choices and crossroads on the way. GW2 doesn't really give you this one way that spreads into several ones in time, but it just gives you one crossroad with many many different ways at one point. 

It's funny that you say "forced to build their own experience". That's the definition of freedom. Now, I get it. I play RPGs that guide you through the content instead of having a sandbox like Elder Scrolls RPGs, but that's because I enjoy following a story, like Mass Effect, for example. In GW2, I don't find the story particularly engaging (personal opinion), but that's ok for me. In fact I like it better for an MMO, because I do like making my own choices and chase my own carrots.

I think though that if you have to follow a specific path or you are free to decide your own path, I know which one I would use the word "forced" for. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Gehenna.3625

[Ashen.2907]

19 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Yeah, WoW players are lazy while GW2 players are intellectuals.  No biased opinions here, huh? 🙄

To be fair, that is the OP whose beginning premise is ways in which GW2 lacks in comparison to WoW. So, of course his opinions are biased, all of our opinions are biased, but he seems to be attempting to present at least some sense of balance. 

[DarcShriek.5829]

Go play WoW then.  There's nothing stopping you.

[michixlol.9340]

3 hours ago, DarcShriek.5829 said:

Go play WoW then.  There's nothing stopping you.

 

Not helpful, if the thread is about wanting to enjoy GW2.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

Having looked through this thread the past few days, I still don't get the arguments people have been making over small details and such. I will just say each gaming method has strengths and weaknesses. None are perfect by a long shot which is why variety is a good thing in the MMO space. This stops it from all being one thing which would get boring after awhile. 

[Veneratio.1980]

The further away from WoW this game is the more I love it. Could not think of a worse take imo.