Tired Of Pepega Invuln Design Classes

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

37 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

He gave feedback, several times, you didn't listen once. The conversation degenerated long ago into a kitten measuring contest, it doesn't make sense to engage any longer in that, but please.

1) Mesmer needs SOME amount of invulnerability as it's the main intended mechanic to survive conditions (because, unlike other classes, we have no kittening cleanse). I expect someone with your experience to actually know that.
2) There's an overabundance of defensive frames in virtuoso, which can be a problem if you really wanted to kill one, but in actual gameplay no virtuoso can ever represent a threat in any way, shape or form; virtuoso is the one and only EoD class that IS NOT problematic in any PvP setting, has never been anything of the sorts and is not even remotely close to becoming one. Could nerf it for all I care, it's a token spec anyway and it can't be deader than dead, but trust me virtuoso isn't the reason why you're losing. From someone with your experience I expect to know that too.
3) The problems with chronomancer are slightly more relevant, but they're not related to invulnerability and they are still limited to chronobunker; either way, that asinine build still loses to the rest of the sidenoding scene: you won't do anything against a decent spellbreaker as they ignore blinds\weakness\CC and shake off the rest of your conditions, you won't do anything against a decent catalyst because they just don't care about conditions and with hammer they outdamage you by far. You can and should nerf it because it's a build that works quite well without any skill requirement, but it's far from uncounterable. From someone with your experience I expect to know that too.

I don't know anything about ele and I won't judge about that, but as far as mesmer goes you're being 100% forum. And I expect you to know that, too.

But none of it is relevant.

These statements have nothing to do with what was being discussed.

It's all completely misrepresented and taken entirely out of context.

1. No one said anything about "removing invulnerability off Mesmer". What was said is that there are too many invuln effects in general. Several times he insinuated that I had "wanted to remove things" and this was never said, not even once. All that was said, is that there is too much invuln in GW2's current patching, and then a very direct statement from myself asking the community: "You tell me how to fix". He then chooses not to give actual feedback and instead attacks every single thing that everyone else is saying with great misrepresentation for 6 pages long, and then makes his own thread to give the proper feedback that was requested in my OP post initially to begin with.
2. His take in his response about Virtuoso is completely botched. He thinks he's arguing about something, but he's actually saying the exact same thing that everyone else said about Virtuoso, including me, which was: "Virtuoso is pretty much an annoying gnat that you can't kill that can't hold nodes, it needs a rebalance". He then goes on to insinuate that I was complaining about losing to Virtuosos, when again, nothing like that was ever said at all. Actually quite the opposite was said but this guy here has low comprehension levels and only bases his responses on what he thinks he read instead of what it is actually saying. This is what I'm talking about, his responses were not coherent to the discussion.
3. No one was talking about Chronomancer. Obviously the thread was discussing Catalyst/Virtuoso. But he insisted that he couldn't understand what anyone was talking about so he continued to inject completely irrelevant arguments that had nothing to do whatsoever with anything that anyone said at all.

So you're going to come in here and post this ^ in his defense, a bunch of misrepresented taken out of context resposnses and tell me these are valid topical statements to the discussion? After 6 pages of yargal bargal, this is what you have to present as his statements?

What he posted in his own thread is the valid statement we were asking him to post in this thread, which he chose not to do. Again, this is likely because it was pointed out to him several times that he hadn't made any real statements yet and that everything he had said was misrepresented and taken out of context. Then he didn't want to post a real statement after this being said, even though he obviously had a great deal of good feedback to give, because it would have proved what was wrong with his approach to begin with, as well as his tactic of "acting like he couldn't understand what anyone was saying" was completely full of ****. As you can see in his own thread, he clearly perfectly understood what was being discussed here all along.

After 20+ years of foruming, it looks to me like this forum user had initially made a bad approach and when he was called out on it, his pride declared a tactic of defending his mistakes so he could look good, instead of admitting to some mistakes. He chose to run with this tactic, going deeper and deeper, until he hit a point of no return where admitting being wrong was no longer an option after writing 6 pages of nonsense. But he still wanted to give the actual feedback he knew he had to give all along, he just couldn't do it here. So he makes his own thread.

That is some mighty strong e-pride for a forum my dude.

I don't understand how you can come in here and vouch for that guy.

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Terrorhuz.4695]

4 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

things

I'm not defending him, I'm attacking you.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Just now, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I'm not defending him, I'm attacking you.

Well that's alright then.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

18 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Exactly.

 

This is what I'm talking about ^ when I said: "narcissism & ego is the only thing they understand".

What you're doing here is you're projecting yourself into an assumption of why I must be responding to you. Your pride to want to win even the stupidest arguments is all you understand so you are assuming I must be doing the same thing. But in reality, the only reason I am indulging this silly debacle is to see how many confused faces it takes you to farm in this thread before it occurs to you how the community views what you've done here.

~ Cheers

 

You yourself said that "It was quite apparent during the recent population decline that the forum had become 90% dominant with Gold 1 - 2 level feedback, when 3/5 threads posted were complaining about and only about Rifle Mechs." But now the forums are truthtellers?

I did write a pretty long response to this post but I sadly miss-clicked on a link and the text got lost and I probably cba writing it up again, but one of the things I mentioned was this quote of yours: "Keep in mind there is a big difference between oldschool invulns like Renewed Focus or Elixir S that lock you into a defensive animation for the duration of the invuln, vs. these new school invulns that allow something to be invulnerable while bursting you at the same time."

Which are these new school invulns that allow you to burst while being invulnerable, Trevor?

Edited December 15, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Sahne.6950]

 

21 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

 

I did write a pretty long response to this post but I sadly miss-clicked on a link and the text got lost and I probably cba writing it up again,

 

Mister "i edit everything so i look clean"  acting like "missclicking and loosing what I have originally said" is completly normal...

21 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Which are these new school invulns that allow you to burst while being invulnerable, Trevor?

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

3 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

 

 

Mister "i edit everything so i look clean"

 

 

New school invulns that allow you to burst while being invulnerable (you used one single skill, hurl, you also pressed your signets which did not go off because you were in an animation lock).

Edited December 15, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Sahne.6950]

20 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

New school invulns that allow you to burst while being invulnerable (you used one single skill, hurl, you also pressed your signets which did not go off because you were in an animation lock).

Hurl was enough to catch your average gizmo wielder by surprise and secure me the kill in the end.

I am literally sharing a video where i burst on of the "best"😉 people in EU, while being invulnerable, and your still arguing against it.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

50 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Exactly

~ Cheers

 

This is the way.

[Waffles.5632]

- Virtuoso's got core distortion added

- Chrono's got core distortion returned

- Mirages got a bug fix for axes 🥲

 

 

It's not new effects, rather, compounding of effects IMO.

I think any pvper who mains a class around ~18k hp has felt it too. The Margin for error is so small right now. If you get caught or mess up, you're pretty much toasted. From all the new pets, new lingering AOE's, new multi-hit attacks, etc.

Also keep in mind the most subtle difference IMO is how essentially, you have to save 2 dodges now because those things I mentioned above, the AOE's+Multi-hit attacks, they last far longer than a single dodge now. Before, you really were kinda safe with one dodge being "used as back up", it allowed you an extra second or two to react, which can be crucial in pvp. It was a bit of breathing room but that's all gone now.

Now? You're lucky if you get 1 second to react on some classes not even joking. From stepping into a Cata AOE, into a Mecha AOE, (or both stacked, GL with that) Or now you can get teamed up on by both a WB and a Rev, which, for real good luck counter-bursting that or running away because you can do neither atm. (both of those classes get access to invuls too lmfaooooo and WB's invul resets all his movement abilities even more LULZ)

 

There's tons of new combos now with the EoD classes that compound too much with the previous classes and their mechanics. Dealing with pressure from a Ranger is a skill issue, dealing with pressure from both a ranger and a mecha (with their pets) is a pure mechanics issue and some classes literally do not have the mechanics to deal with coordinated pressure like that.

 

Not mecha issue, not virtu issue, it is entirely an EoD issue IMO. You can take any EoD class and it will have a mechanic or two that was considered absurd before. Don't believe me?

 

Hey remember when Anet said it was bad design to land super powerful one hit blows from far away and from stealth?

And then they gave UNTAMED access to stealth+teleport+maul?

 

All of them are guilty, it's only by which degree.

 

Edit: Also new scepter firetooth on ele or whatever it's called. Oh what type of mechanic is it?

A self-tracking high damage AOE. 🙃

Edited December 15, 2022 by Waffles.5632

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

8 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Edit: Also new scepter firetooth on ele or whatever it's called. Oh what type of mechanic is it?

A self-tracking high damage AOE. 🙃

Yes

Let us not forget to mention how an Ele can cast a skill such as Scepter 2 delayed animation and then go into invuln frames to defend at the same time the Scepter 2 is landing on the opponent.

@agrippastrilemma.8741

Edited December 15, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Just now, Sahne.6950 said:

Hurl was enough to catch your average gizmo wielder by surprise and secure me the kill in the end.

I am literally sharing a video where i burst on of the best people in EU and your still arguing against it.

 

your a lost cause.

It's not relevant in the least because:

1. Obsidian Skin is not a "new school invuln" that they have added.

2. Obsidian Skin is an animation lock (which is what Trevor called "old school" quote "oldschool invulns like Renewed Focus or Elixir S that lock you into a defensive animation for the duration of the invuln"). I can "burst" somebody by using for example Virtue of Justice -> Smite condition while being invulnerable during Renewed Focus but this is not what Trevor is talking about in the quote (as conclusively proven by the fact that RF is included in as an example of an oldschool invuln).

So now, step aside and let Trevor answer the question, which are these "new school invulns that allow something to be invulnerable while bursting you at the same time"?

 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

16 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Hurl was enough to catch your average gizmo wielder by surprise and secure me the kill in the end.

I am literally sharing a video where i burst on of the "best" people in EU, while being invulnerable, and your still arguing against it.

Who? I only see aids in that video.
Invulnerability != Invulnerability though. Try doing the same thing while using Mist Form and no, pre-casted skills/effects don't count. Obsidian Flesh has a cast time thus locking you into animation thus allowing you to use skills that don't have cast times/animations, that should be pretty logical. Mist Form on the other hands says kitten you, you won't use anything.

IMO he didn't say anything wrong, but worder it poorly, on which you argue for the sake of arguing at this point.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

7 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yes

Let us not forget to mention how an Ele can cast a skill such as Scepter 2 delayed animation and then go into invuln frames to defend at the same time the Scepter 2 is landing on the opponent.

@agrippastrilemma.8741

Which is completely irrelevant because this can be done with an "oldschool invuln". Answer the question: which are these "new school invulns that allow something to be invulnerable while bursting you at the same time"?

[Sahne.6950]

@TrollingDemigod.3041

This guy isnt just wording things bad.... Please give me a minute of your time to showcase whats really happening here. I promise, It will become clear as day, and i try to be as short as possible.

He is using vague terms and making very unspecific claims, of which he changes the definition or meaning as soon as hes proven wrong.   If he cant twist the definition, he goes back and edits.  But if you look closely you can still find phrases that completly contradict eachother. Even after him "cleaning up the mess".

On 12/14/2022 at 11:54 AM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

"Keep in mind there is a big difference between oldschool invulns like Renewed Focus or Elixir S that lock you into a defensive animation for the duration of the invuln, vs. these new school invulns that allow something to be invulnerable while bursting you at the same time."  

This is what they are referring to when they speak about new/old school invulns .

Lets get the definition, and identify what skills  would be new and what skill would be oldschool according to this.

As they have correctly identified, Gw2 currently has 2 diffrent forms of invulnerability.

The first form are skills like elixirS / mistform. just how you mentioned @TrollingDemigod.3041.   Those are the invulns that change your status completly. for example elixir s will give you the status "shrunk". you cant attack during those, because they completly disable your skillbar. but you can use F interactions, for example stomping or reviving.  For some reason, the two call them oldschool invulns.

Now we look at the second version of the invuln mechanic. they named the other version of invulns "new school invulns".

Those invulns lock you into a channeled defensive animation, instead of changing your status completly. With those you cant activate F interactions like stomps and rezzing, but those invulns dont deactivate your skillbar, so you can use instantskills during those invulns.

 

Okey... do we agree on this?   2 diffrent versions of "invulnerability"

"oldschool" - Changes your status completly, disables skilllbars, F interactions are possible.

"newschool" - locks you in a channel animation. The skillbar stays active so you can cast instantskills. F interactions are not possible.

 

Now that we got all of this out of the way and cleary know what we are talking about here, lets take a look at whats really happening besides angry arguing!   He repeatedly mocks trevor with this:

19 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

So now, step aside and let Trevor answer the question, which are these "new school invulns that allow something to be invulnerable while bursting you at the same time"?

so i went ahead and i used a invulnerability that, according to their own wording, is a "new school invuln". i casted the invulnerability and during the invuln i started castin another skill which ultimately lead to me, getting a surprise kill.

Now look what he does! 

18 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

It's not relevant in the least because:

Obsidian Skin is not a "new school invuln" that they have added. Obsidian Skin is an animation lock

 "animation lock in a defensechannel" is one of the main things, that charackterize these "newschool invulns", and seperates them from "oldschoolinvulns" like Elixir S and Mistform which changes your status completly. 

All of a sudden, Obsidianflesh is not a "newschool invuln"...  its a animation lock....  huh?

Do you see how that contradicts itself?

This "bending of definitions, so he is always right" is the root of alot of the frustration and anger in this Thread.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

5 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

@TrollingDemigod.3041

This guy isnt just wording things bad.... Please give me a minute of your time to showcase whats really happening here. I promise, It will become clear as day, and i try to be as short as possible.

He is using vague terms and making very unspecific claims, of which he changes the definition or meaning as soon as hes proven wrong.   If he cant twist the definition, he goes back and edits the post so people cant see what he wrote.  But if you look closely you can still find phrases that completly contradict eachother. Even after him "cleaning up the mess".

This is what they are referring to when they speak about new/old school invulns .

Lets get the definition, and identify what skills  would be new and what skill would be oldschool according to this.

As they have correctly identified, Gw2 currently has 2 diffrent forms of invulnerability.

The first form are skills like elixirS / mistform. just how you mentioned @TrollingDemigod.3041.   Those are the invulns that change your status completly. for example elixir s will give you the status "shrunk". you cant attack during those, because they completly disable your skillbar. but you can use F interactions, for example stomping or reviving.  For some reason, the two call them oldschool invulns.

Now we look at the second version of the invuln mechanic. they named the other version of invulns "new school invulns".

Those invulns lock you into a channeled defensive animation, instead of changing your status completly. With those you cant activate F interactions like stomps and rezzing, but those invulns dont deactivate your skillbar, so you can use instantskills during those invulns.

 

Okey... do we agree on this?   2 diffrent versions of "invulnerability"

"oldschool" - Changes your status completly, disables skilllbars, F interactions are possible.

"newschool" - locks you in a channel animation. The skillbar stays active so you can cast instantskills. F interactions are not possible.

 

Now that we got all of this out of the way and cleary know what we are talking about here, lets take a look at whats really happening besides angry arguing!   He repeatedly mocks trevor with this:

so i went ahead and i used a invulnerability that, according to their own definition, is a "new school invuln". i casted the invulnerability and during the invuln i started castin another skill which ultimately lead to me, getting a surprise kill.

Now look what he does! 

 "animation lock in a defensechannel" is one of the main things, that charackterize these newschool invulns, and seperates them from oldschoolinvulns like Elixir S and Mistform which changes your status completly. 

But all of a sudden Obsidianflesh is not a newschool invuln...  its a animation lock....!?!?!  huh?

Do you see how that contradicts itself?

This "changing of definitions and editing, so he is always right" is the root of alot of the frustration and anger in this Thread.

Fine, my bad then. Although I still get a feeling that he has a good idea overall, but can't put it properly into words thus getting lost here and there.
The terms "oldschool" and "newschool" are probably one to blame here, since both of "them" were present since 2012.

[Sahne.6950]

8 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Fine, my bad then. Although I still get a feeling that he has a good idea overall, but can't put it properly into words thus getting lost here and there.
The terms "oldschool" and "newschool" are probably one to blame here, since both of "them" were present since 2012.

Yeah this dude knows what hes talking about, no doubt. He proved it in his other thread. i even liked that one.

But over here everything just got a liiittle out of control.... 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Yeah this dude knows what hes talking about, no doubt. He proved it in his other thread. i even liked that one.

But over here everything just got a liiittle out of control.... 

Which is when you just disengage entirely, as there is no point anymore in the discussion.

[Dr Meta.3158]

On 12/16/2022 at 11:34 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Which is when you just disengage entirely, as there is no point anymore in the discussion.

This is it. This is a textbook response of how to deal ASPD behavior. Just leave.

[Avead.5760]

On 12/15/2022 at 10:23 PM, Sahne.6950 said:

 

 

Mister "i edit everything so i look clean"  acting like "missclicking and loosing what I have originally said" is completly normal...

 

You show a duel vs a guy with a queue pop to prove that you can attack while invuln on ele and you pressed only hurl.. Lol hurl!! precasts don't count, fields don't count, dots don't count you can easily achieve the same effect by using a tp to Los. But you don't complain about tp.. There are so many ways to delay the game in gw2. Also god.. play something else other than selfish tempest for your own good! 

And also random question that doesn't have any bearing to the conversation and it popped out of nowhere in my mind for no reason at all:  Is being delusional a self defense mechanism for avoiding the truth? Probably

[Asuran.5469]

44 minutes ago, Avead.5760 said:

You show a duel vs a guy with a queue pop to prove that you can attack while invuln on ele and you pressed only hurl.. Lol hurl!! precasts don't count, fields don't count, dots don't count you can easily achieve the same effect by using a tp to Los. But you don't complain about tp.. There are so many ways to delay the game in gw2. Also god.. play something else other than selfish tempest for your own good! 

And also random question that doesn't have any bearing to the conversation and it popped out of nowhere in my mind for no reason at all:  Is being delusional a self defense mechanism for avoiding the truth? Probably

This is not the premise of the original statement though.

It was originally stated that Elementalist can precast a bunch of elongated AoE DPS effects and then go into invuln and defend simultaneously while the AoE effects are dealing attrition to the person who tries to stay on the node with the Ele.

Agrigrilionominom as pointed out several times now, had misrepresented the original statement to drive argument in places that were taken completely out of context.

Honestly not much of what he said in this thread was even coherent to what was being discussed.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Asuran.5469

[Avead.5760]

8 hours ago, Asuran.5469 said:

This is not the premise of the original statement though.

It was originally stated that Elementalist can precast a bunch of elongated AoE DPS effects and then go into invuln and defend simultaneously while the AoE effects are dealing attrition to the person who tries to stay on the node with the Ele.

Oh well the premise of the original argument is wrong then. There are almost no elongated effects unless you count dots like burning in the meta catalyst build.There are the sphere fields but they deal no damage. Earth shield 5 is stationary so there's no point to eat orbs damage either if any is up since they are at melee range and you cant attack him either way. Scepter fa has some precast like dt a fire field that does some damage burn and insta casts but it doesn't seem to be meta yet. Hurl does ok damage air 2 does okish for instant earth 4 does almost no damage but reflects.

Invuln doesn't allow node ticks so if ele pops this very important CD it's to counter  a CD of your own, buy time for CDs, passively heal, counter dots ticking and preexisting soon to land damage and finally get support from outside source with no counterplay!(invuln is frking strong right??!?). There are no attrition effects of any importance really and the ele neither "defends node" nor force the attacker to stay in any dps effect on said node unless it's a monkey. You could remove all instas under invuln and it still would be strong! 

You guys don't like ele strong and want to remove power by replacing this very powerful defensive tool with a lesser one.. I get you, I feel you ele is strong!! This is a zoo everyone for himself. But what is this talk about being offensive when uninteractable.. be a proper man (or woman) and say things as they are. It's a matter of power allocation not mechanics! Also pls somebody ban this terrible tempest build I cringe so hard every time I see it.

edit: and to strengthen my argument that is all about power. Fire weaver can actually be seriously offensive when invuln by pri stance lava skin. No one gave two shts about this interaction till now that tempest support and cata side started dominating and people tried to find excuses to nerf ele skills. An interaction that the meta builds don't exploit. Hilarious. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Avead.5760

[Asuran.5469]

4 hours ago, Avead.5760 said:

Oh well the premise of the original argument is wrong then.

There was no argument about that statement to begin with, that's the thing.

It was mentioned that an Ele can cast an effect like Scepter 2 and then go into an invuln while it hits, which is true.

It was mentioned that an Ele can create invuln like effects by stacking smaller elongated effects like swirling winds and various auras and stand in those effects while attacking as it completely negates some specific damage type like say from a Deadeye. This is offensing & defensing at the same time, and it is true that it can do this.

There is nothing incorrect about either of those statements because they are both true.

It was Agri that looked at those statements and fired back with a completely misrepresented argument saying: "Eles cannot use attacks while they are in invuln frames" when in fact, no one had claimed that at all.

Again, almost every single thing he said in this thread was completely incoherent derailment.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Asuran.5469

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 12/16/2022 at 10:39 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

@TrollingDemigod.3041

This guy isnt just wording things bad.... Please give me a minute of your time to showcase whats really happening here. I promise, It will become clear as day, and i try to be as short as possible.

He is using vague terms and making very unspecific claims, of which he changes the definition or meaning as soon as hes proven wrong.   If he cant twist the definition, he goes back and edits.  But if you look closely you can still find phrases that completly contradict eachother. Even after him "cleaning up the mess".

I already said that I added things that I forgot to write, or to fix some spelling/grammar error. Nothing was altered so as to change the discussion or anything. You can see this if you check the edited timestamp, it is typically within minutes of the post. I'm not used to having online discussions where the other part reads and replies instantly, this is why. I'll try to get used to the preview button in the future though.

Edit: lmao, funnily enough most of Sahne's comments are also edited, here are his last 11 comments:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/125438-tired-of-pepega-invuln-design-classes/?do=findComment&comment=1819784

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/125438-tired-of-pepega-invuln-design-classes/?do=findComment&comment=1819685

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/125438-tired-of-pepega-invuln-design-classes/?do=findComment&comment=1819411

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/125438-tired-of-pepega-invuln-design-classes/?do=findComment&comment=1819401

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/125438-tired-of-pepega-invuln-design-classes/?do=findComment&comment=1819108

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/125438-tired-of-pepega-invuln-design-classes/?do=findComment&comment=1819105

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/125438-tired-of-pepega-invuln-design-classes/?do=findComment&comment=1819089

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/125438-tired-of-pepega-invuln-design-classes/?do=findComment&comment=1819018

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/125438-tired-of-pepega-invuln-design-classes/?do=findComment&comment=1818950

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/125438-tired-of-pepega-invuln-design-classes/?do=findComment&comment=1818947

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/125438-tired-of-pepega-invuln-design-classes/?do=findComment&comment=1818634

They are ALL edited! Imagine trying to guilt-trip me about editing while this is your history!

On 12/16/2022 at 10:39 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

This is what they are referring to when they speak about new/old school invulns .

Lets get the definition, and identify what skills  would be new and what skill would be oldschool according to this.

As they have correctly identified, Gw2 currently has 2 diffrent forms of invulnerability.

The first form are skills like elixirS / mistform. just how you mentioned @TrollingDemigod.3041.   Those are the invulns that change your status completly. for example elixir s will give you the status "shrunk". you cant attack during those, because they completly disable your skillbar. but you can use F interactions, for example stomping or reviving.  For some reason, the two call them oldschool invulns.

Now we look at the second version of the invuln mechanic. they named the other version of invulns "new school invulns".

Those invulns lock you into a channeled defensive animation, instead of changing your status completly. With those you cant activate F interactions like stomps and rezzing, but those invulns dont deactivate your skillbar, so you can use instantskills during those invulns.

 

Okey... do we agree on this?   2 diffrent versions of "invulnerability"

"oldschool" - Changes your status completly, disables skilllbars, F interactions are possible.

"newschool" - locks you in a channel animation. The skillbar stays active so you can cast instantskills. F interactions are not possible.

 

Now that we got all of this out of the way and cleary know what we are talking about here, lets take a look at whats really happening besides angry arguing!   He repeatedly mocks trevor with this:

so i went ahead and i used a invulnerability that, according to their own wording, is a "new school invuln". i casted the invulnerability and during the invuln i started castin another skill which ultimately lead to me, getting a surprise kill.

Now look what he does! 

 "animation lock in a defensechannel" is one of the main things, that charackterize these "newschool invulns", and seperates them from "oldschoolinvulns" like Elixir S and Mistform which changes your status completly. 

All of a sudden, Obsidianflesh is not a "newschool invuln"...  its a animation lock....  huh?

Do you see how that contradicts itself?

This "bending of definitions, so he is always right" is the root of alot of the frustration and anger in this Thread.

This is the Trevor Boyer quote that this discussion is about, for posterity:

Quote

"Keep in mind there is a big difference between oldschool invulns like Renewed Focus or Elixir S that lock you into a defensive animation for the duration of the invuln, vs. these new school invulns that allow something to be invulnerable while bursting you at the same time."

So Indeed, as you say, Trevor Boyer identifies two different types of invulns in the game (I disagree with this, I would say there are three types, but this is beside the point, as we are arguing under his premises). He gives us this:

• Old School - "lock you into a defensive animation" - examples: Elixir S, Renewed Focus
• New School - "allow something to be invulnerable while bursting you"

This is Trevor Boyers definition and examples, that I am adhering to right now. Now let's look at how Sahne changes this definition to suit his narrative, quote:

• "oldschool" - Changes your status completly, disables skilllbars, F interactions are possible.
• "newschool" - locks you in a channel animation. The skillbar stays active so you can cast instantskills. F interactions are not possible.

Notice how Sahne suddenly brings in "disables skillbars, F interactions are possible" which was nowhere to be seen in Trevor Boyer's definition, In fact it directly contradicts it because one of the two examples Trevor gave of an "old school invuln" was Renewed Focus, which does not change your skill bar. Notice that Sahne says "The first form are skills like elixirS / mistform" and "oldschoolinvulns" like Elixir S and Mistform"- he conveniently changes the examples to Elixir S and Mist Form!

When Trevor says "new school invulns" he means invulns during which you can cast your skills as normal. That is why he said "allows someone to be invulnerable while bursting you" - pretty much nobody would consider casting Hurl as "bursting you". Distortion is an example of such an invuln (does Sahne even realize that Distortion works differently from Obsidian Flesh? It isn't clear).

"He repeatedly mocks trevor with this"

I asked a question. If he still believes in his own statement he should easily be able to answer it.

So i went ahead and i used a invulnerability that, according to their own wording, is a "new school invuln". i casted the invulnerability and during the invuln i started castin another skill which ultimately lead to me, getting a surprise kill.

As outlined above, Obsidian Flesh is not a "new school invuln".

" 'animation lock in a defensechannel' is one of the main things, that charackterize these "newschool invulns", and seperates them from "oldschoolinvulns" like Elixir S and Mistform which changes your status completly."

How can anybody believe this? Look at the quote by Trevor Boyer again (top of this post): "oldschool invulns like Renewed Focus or Elixir S that lock you into a defensive animation for the duration of the invuln". Trevor is outright saying that a defensive animation during the invuln characterizes an "oldschool invuln" but then Sahne tries to claim that it characterizes a "newschool invuln". This "changes your status completely" is something that was never mentioned by Trevor at all - it is a narrative completely made up by Sahne.

"All of a sudden, Obsidianflesh is not a "newschool invuln"...  its a animation lock....  huh?"

Yes, it never was a newschool invuln. Besides, what on Earth would be new school about it - it has existed since the very start of the game in 2012 (and has in fact been nerfed heavily since).

"Do you see how that contradicts itself?

This "bending of definitions, so he is always right" is the root of alot of the frustration and anger in this Thread."

Ironically you are guilty of exactly what you are accusing me of, the twisting of definitions, even being so blatant as to change the given examples to suit your narrative.

Anyone who still thinks you are in the right here should be ashamed of themselves.

 

Edit: now please be quiet and let Trevor answer the question: which are these "new school invulns that allow something to be invulnerable while bursting you at the same time"?

Edited December 19, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Avead.5760]

7 hours ago, Asuran.5469 said:

There was no argument about that statement to begin with, that's the thing.

It was mentioned that an Ele can cast an effect like Scepter 2 and then go into an invuln while it hits, which is true.

It was mentioned that an Ele can create invuln like effects by stacking smaller elongated effects like swirling winds and various auras and stand in those effects while attacking as it completely negates some specific damage type like say from a Deadeye. This is offensing & defensing at the same time, and it is true that it can do this.

There is nothing incorrect about either of those statements because they are both true.

 

I see.. we were talking about being "invuln like" while offensive, so basically this Sahne guy derailed it just to point us how he knows you can cast hurl during obsidian flesh. 😂

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

7 hours ago, Asuran.5469 said:

There was no argument about that statement to begin with, that's the thing.

It was mentioned that an Ele can cast an effect like Scepter 2 and then go into an invuln while it hits, which is true.

Read my response to Sahne above. I'll say this, I interpreted the discussion as being about invulns that you can use other skills normally during (like Distortion) - because otherwise why would he give Renewed Focus as an example of an old school invuln, which is a defensive channel but doesn't prevent you from using instant skills. If it is just about prolonged, pulsing or delayed effects then every invuln in the game is guilty, for instance you can use Shredder gyro and go into Elixir S to do some pretty good damage, and meta Cata (which Trevor has a problem with) would be less problematic than most.

7 hours ago, Asuran.5469 said:

It was mentioned that an Ele can create invuln like effects by stacking smaller elongated effects like swirling winds and various auras and stand in those effects while attacking as it completely negates some specific damage type like say from a Deadeye. This is offensing & defensing at the same time, and it is true that it can do this.

There is nothing incorrect about either of those statements because they are both true.

It was Agri that looked at those statements and fired back with a completely misrepresented argument saying: "Eles cannot use attacks while they are in invuln frames" when in fact, no one had claimed that at all.

I have been talking about invuln in particular, I do not disagree at all that ele projectile denial is over the top (when running focus and Earth Shield).

7 hours ago, Asuran.5469 said:

Again, almost every single thing he said in this thread was completely incoherent derailment.

This is literally just objectively false. Among the first things I did in this thread was ask Trevor some specific questions which he mostly ignored. For instance I asked him what he meant by "Mesmer" - power chrono, condi/bunker chrono, just Virtuoso? Because he asked for help with specifics from those who know the classes and without further information it is hard for me to give suggestions that would solve his problem. The other thing I have done is contest certain things I think he is either wrong about or hasn't explained himself properly about - these "new school invulns" are one example. Another example is how he seems to think Mesmer and Virtuoso in particular is way stronger than it actually is. Trevor himself ignored multiple of my responses to him including one in which I brought up specific nerf suggestions that might be relevant (that I have also already brought up in previous threads before). And Sahne completely altered the definition I questioned Trevor Boyer on just to suit his narrative, as I outlined in my reply to him.

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741