defense spellbreaker overperforming unacceptably

[Damocles.4908]

With any warrior running around with a hammer you can already guess what they are planning to do and I find it a bit sad that the warrior creativity is gone a bit. Look, the CC is nice but here is the thing, if you can "break or distrupt the combo pattern" then the build falls apart, as they cc you, they get 1 stack stable, now if you can either avoid the opening strike which 99% will be stun and counter back or dodge then you will throw them off. blind and immobile is also useful../blocks etc.. Also dont panic, if you have a stun breaker and are caught in the hammer loop, you need to time it carefully to dodge out of it.

 

If you don't have a stun breakers or cc of your own, or any def to last through those strikes and panic dodge unnessesarily in  any situation  ...well then, the door is that way.

[noneHotBuildTest.7251]

On 12/21/2022 at 6:30 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

No, it's annoying. 

It was far more annoying and less fun to have warrior just hard lose to most builds before the adjustments to defense, though. And I can name three annoying builds for every class. Annoying isn't the metric by which Anet does or should balance.

They nerf mecha coz it's annoying.

Yeap, it's time to nerf cc warrior.

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

19 hours ago, noneHotBuildTest.7251 said:

They nerf mecha coz it's annoying.

Yeap, it's time to nerf cc warrior.

 

Can we nerf Mesmer some more then? Clones are annoying.
Can we nerf Thief then? Stealth is annoying.
Can we nerf Willbender? All that mobility is annoying.
Can we nerf Revenant? All those double utility skill access is annoying.
Can we nerf Necros? They are still breathing, and its that heavy nasally breathing that sounds like a congested Pomeranian and it's annoying.

[Kodama.6453]

16 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Can we nerf Mesmer some more then? Clones are annoying.
Can we nerf Thief then? Stealth is annoying.
Can we nerf Willbender? All that mobility is annoying.
Can we nerf Revenant? All those double utility skill access is annoying.
Can we nerf Necros? They are still breathing, and its that heavy nasally breathing that sounds like a congested Pomeranian and it's annoying.

You know exactly that there have been builds in the past which got nerfed solely for being annoying.
Now it's just warriors turn and it seems fair to me.

Playstyles which are highly anti-fun for new players can harm the game in the long run. And lying on the ground permanently, not allowed to play the game at all, is probably the most anti-fun playstyle this game has ever seen.

Arguably, they could rework hammer as a weapon. So much CC and all damage located on one skill bursting you hard while you are CCed might not be a great design for PvP.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

44 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Arguably, they could rework hammer as a weapon. So much CC and all damage located on one skill bursting you hard while you are CCed might not be a great design for PvP.

Arguable having a weapon with so few damaging abilities such that it all rides on the one skill isn't great design for PvP either.

[Kodama.6453]

55 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Arguable having a weapon with so few damaging abilities such that it all rides on the one skill isn't great design for PvP either.

Exactly my point, hammer might be in need of a rework. Not healthy to have all your damage located on one single ability.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

9 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Exactly my point, hammer might be in need of a rework. Not healthy to have all your damage located on one single ability.

Best way is shave the bonus damage and add damage back to BB.

[Kodama.6453]

4 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Best way is shave the bonus damage and add damage back to BB.

Still leaves the fact that the weapon comes with 3 hard CC abilities in a single weapon kit, tho. Which is one of the main factor of the build that doesn't allow new players to play the game.

Shaving some CC for more damage might also be needed here.

[noneHotBuildTest.7251]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Best way is shave the bonus damage and add damage back to BB.

Mecha has be fix form 6 month, from bunker / condi mech to rifle auto brain death which put lot of effort but ppl still think mecha super annoying that point out a truth.

Fix a skill won't fix the hate for the class, and it will always be annoying.

Nerf it will fix the problem.

You know what gonna happen, warrior must be nerf or being turning muti patch still got nerf, cancel culture is great, is it?

Edited January 9, 2023 by noneHotBuildTest.7251

[Fueki.4753]

5 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

You know exactly that there have been builds in the past which got nerfed solely for being annoying.
Now it's just warriors turn and it seems fair to me.

You know exactly that there have been professions that were allowed to be too strong for long periods of time in the past.

Now it's just Warrior's turn and it seems fair to me.

And Spellbreaker isn't even too strong. People just refuse to play its counters. It doesn't need nerfs. The only thing it needs is to have the bugged CD reduction on Full Counter to be fixed.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Terrorhuz.4695]

Just to be clear, what would be the counter to warrior?

Conditions won't work because of cleansing ire +  (EDIT: cleansing ire competes with stab) weapons swap + mending + shake it off, they have some of the best cleanse in the game
Power won't work because mending + full counter will just negate everything
CC won't work because a metric kittenton of stab
Melee won't work because tbh you don't go melee against a warrior
Ranged won't work because warrior has enough movement to LoS everything.
Oneshots won't work because you don't oneshot 19k HP with heavy armor. You just don't do that.
Long engagements won't work because wearing down a spellbreaker doesn't really work; with full counter and shake it off on such low CDs any attrition war is lost before it even begins.

Assuming my attacks don't really work, I'll defend. I have well-timed blind\weakness, but resistance on dodge will prevent that; so I can immobilize to prevent the dodge but immobilize on warrior doesn't work because they cleanse immobilize on every movement skill (and everything is a movement skill on warrior).
So I defend myself with well-timed rupts and stability will prevent that
So I defend myself with blocks and dagger ignores blocks.
Then I defend myself with stealth\ports, but magebane tether will prevent that too.
Just like bladesworn, spellbreakers ignore pretty much every defensive other than invulns and evades, while having themselves obscenely bloated defensives.

Just so we're clear, what do I have to bring to face a warrior and convert into a kill without relying on external help? What is that you, as a warrior, fear facing? Because right now I don't see anything at all other than daredevils, which aren't a thing anymore.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Hotride.2187]

40 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Just so we're clear, what do I have to bring to face a warrior and convert into a kill without relying on external help? What is that you, as a warrior, fear facing? Because right now I don't see anything at all other than daredevils, which aren't a thing anymore.

Daredevil was a problem as +1 before. 1v1 it was not an issue in conquest, at least since 2020.

No idea, I don't run defense in conquest. Probably a good hammer catalyst can push you off node, but taking the node seems like a stretch; at least from my experience from running defense in wvw.

I think all the previous 1v1 matchups that were tough (as in, you could duel for half the match without winning or you just lost per default) shouldn't be a problem now, with defense.

Probably the best option is +1 with something bursty, like untamed. Though that likely only works if the spb doesn't see/expect the untamed coming, since then the spb will do some jumping puzzles and kite.

But keep in mind that cleansing ire and stalwart strength are competing GM traits. So "kittenton of stab" and "cleansing ire + weapons swap" don't exist in the same build (weapon swap cleansing comes from strength, which you can't take; I don't think anyone runs a cleansing sigil).

Edited January 9, 2023 by Hotride.2187

[Sahne.6950]

3 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

You know exactly that there have been professions that were allowed to be too strong for long periods of time in the past.

Now it's just Warrior's turn and it seems fair to me.

And Spellbreaker isn't even too strong.

🤢 holy bias.

25 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

things

They will tell you that you need to bring boonrip, but then again.... every class with Boonrip straightup looses to Spb.... so theres that.

[Vyseman.2947]

Why are ppls crying Class XYZ is "BROKEN OP"?  Its 99% L2P Issue..  Just Learn 2 play and git gud.  Problem Solved lol.  And if you dont know how to handle an Warrior, watch Guides how to.  

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

holy bias.

I don't even play Spellbreaker in sPvP, so your statement doesn't apply.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Just to be clear, what would be the counter to warrior?

Conditions won't work because of cleansing ire +  (EDIT: cleansing ire competes with stab) weapons swap + mending + shake it off, they have some of the best cleanse in the game
Power won't work because mending + full counter will just negate everything
CC won't work because a metric kittenton of stab
Melee won't work because tbh you don't go melee against a warrior
Ranged won't work because warrior has enough movement to LoS everything.
Oneshots won't work because you don't oneshot 19k HP with heavy armor. You just don't do that.
Long engagements won't work because wearing down a spellbreaker doesn't really work; with full counter and shake it off on such low CDs any attrition war is lost before it even begins.

 

Even with Mending and SiO you can overload a warrior of any type with conditions. Just don't blow your burst until they've used SiO and Mending. If they don't have Stab, interrupt the mending. You can force out their condition cleanses with soft CCs and kiting them while saving your main damage skills for after they've blown their cleanses.

If power doesn't work with against 1 heal skill, and 1 low CD evade then its a problem, but not on the warrior's part.

Melee can work, but that is a ymmv depending on class, but that isn't a warrior problem that is a game design issue with some classes being made to be weak in melee and others weak in range.

Meme builds can 100-0 a glass warrior even with the 19k HP and heavy armor. 

As to the long engagement/attrition, some classes are built better for that than others. Its another design issue like how some classes are better at melee and some at range. Necros that can avoid getting CCd are great at attrition.

If you get LoS'd using range then you got outplayed, that isn't a warrior issue. 

[Terrorhuz.4695]

37 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Even with Mending and SiO you can overload a warrior of any type with conditions

Guess that's why we see these many chronobunkers contesting nodes against spellbr... oh no wait we don't, because conditions don't work and your claim is wrong.
Which is something you can easily understand yourself: mending, shake it off and full counter all deny your burst. If you need to align 3 different burned cooldowns for a single opening, one of them being 8s, it's probably not weak to that setup.

37 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Meme builds can 100-0 a glass warrior even with the 19k HP and heavy armor. 

I don't think they can, but even then, they are meme for a reason.

37 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

If you get LoS'd using range then you got outplayed, that isn't a warrior issue

As of right now, warrior is one of the fastest runners in the game. Dagger2 into dagger burst into gs swing into dash into dagger2 again, and that's not even counting big cooldowns like rampage and bull rush. You can't chase down a warrior unless you're a herald, and LoS for them is extremely easy.

37 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

If power doesn't work with against 1 heal skill, and 1 low CD evade then its a problem, but not on the warrior's part.

Power won't work when you can chain FC into defensives from other skills (shield block, gs evade, bull rush, free stab here and there, aegis on the banner which is not much but it's there). It's pretty much the same thing a virtuoso does, just so we're clear.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

2 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Just to be clear, what would be the counter to warrior?

Conditions won't work because of cleansing ire +  (EDIT: cleansing ire competes with stab) weapons swap + mending + shake it off, they have some of the best cleanse in the game
Power won't work because mending + full counter will just negate everything
CC won't work because a metric kittenton of stab
Melee won't work because tbh you don't go melee against a warrior
Ranged won't work because warrior has enough movement to LoS everything.
Oneshots won't work because you don't oneshot 19k HP with heavy armor. You just don't do that.
Long engagements won't work because wearing down a spellbreaker doesn't really work; with full counter and shake it off on such low CDs any attrition war is lost before it even begins.

Assuming my attacks don't really work, I'll defend. I have well-timed blind\weakness, but resistance on dodge will prevent that; so I can immobilize to prevent the dodge but immobilize on warrior doesn't work because they cleanse immobilize on every movement skill (and everything is a movement skill on warrior).
So I defend myself with well-timed rupts and stability will prevent that
So I defend myself with blocks and dagger ignores blocks.
Then I defend myself with stealth\ports, but magebane tether will prevent that too.
Just like bladesworn, spellbreakers ignore pretty much every defensive other than invulns and evades, while having themselves obscenely bloated defensives.

Just so we're clear, what do I have to bring to face a warrior and convert into a kill without relying on external help? What is that you, as a warrior, fear facing? Because right now I don't see anything at all other than daredevils, which aren't a thing anymore.

First off, let me concede that SpB (but no other form of warrior) is OP right now. The answer to that is to fix full counter's CD to be the correct 10.2s when taking Discipline. Nerfing banner of defense wouldn't be a bad idea, either.

 

You list a bunch of things that makes SpB hard to fight. Warrior can't have all of that at one time. For instance, "warrior has lots of stab" is only true if they run stalwart strength. And if they run SS, then they aren't running cleansing ire and are thus weak to conditions. And if they run magebane tether, then they aren't running revenge counter for the resistance and unblindable FC. And if they take resilient roll to make up for the resistance, then they aren't running merciless hammer. Etc, etc,etc.

 

Warrior can absolutely be one-shot. Just yesterday, I was typing to a friend in FFA and was downstate in less than 1s from Mesmer one-shot. Which can happen from stealth.

 

Things I hate playing as warrior:

1) anything Mesmer. SpB now has the tools win the matchup, but it is hardly a one-sided matchup or a foregone conclusion. Power block is especially painful bc everything warrior is so incredibly telegraphed.

 

(As an aside, I think that anyone who trades in stealth one-shots, mantra of distraction, power block, and Moa had lost the right to complain about other professions' toxic mechanics. That's not an attack on you, but just pointing out that the frustration goes both ways.)

 

2) deadeye. Anything ranged, really; Warrior's mobility really isn't as great as you make it out to be. It's lack of z-axis TPs really hurts it in some matchups, too. But deadeye is the absolute worst to fight. Stealth plus endless pew pew (each hitting for like 3.3k plus the occasional 10k death's judgement because, you know, balance...) is really hard for warrior to deal with.

 

There are others, but those are the biggest problems (for me at least).

 

Hope that helps!

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Meme builds can 100-0 a glass warrior even with the 19k HP and heavy armor.

Defense spb is not glass.

16 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

1) anything Mesmer. SpB now has the tools win the matchup, but it is hardly a one-sided matchup or a foregone conclusion. Power block is especially painful bc everything warrior is so incredibly telegraphed.

Before the reworks, only condi staff mesmer was an issue. A power mesmer had to be really really good to 1v1 you (assuming you played the "meta" dagger str build with endure pain). Now with defense a power mesmer probably has to be a god to kill you on spb.

16 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

2) deadeye. Anything ranged, really; Warrior's mobility really isn't as great as you make it out to be. It's lack of z-axis TPs really hurts it in some matchups, too. But deadeye is the absolute worst to fight. Stealth plus endless pew pew (each hitting for like 3.3k plus the occasional 10k death's judgement because, you know, balance...) is really hard for warrior to deal with

Its what you run tether for. Its only an issue when you get +1ed and I'd rather get +1ed by a deadeye than a daredevil.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Hotride.2187

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

58 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Guess that's why we see these many chronobunkers contesting nodes against spellbr... oh no wait we don't, because conditions don't work and your claim is wrong.
Which is something you can easily understand yourself: mending, shake it off and full counter all deny your burst. If you need to align 3 different burned cooldowns for a single opening, one of them being 8s, it's probably not weak to that setup.

My claim isn't wrong. I am describing what the burst window is against a defense breaker that a condi can exploit, whether you can exploit it or not is up to you. 

58 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I don't think they can, but even then, they are meme for a reason.

Indeed. They are meme for a reason, but they can do that. Not even Warrior is immune to such builds and builds like that are what you need to bust a bunker, but they need a support to baby sit them.

58 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

As of right now, warrior is one of the fastest runners in the game. Dagger2 into dagger burst into gs swing into dash into dagger2 again, and that's not even counting big cooldowns like rampage and bull rush. You can't chase down a warrior unless you're a herald, and LoS for them is extremely easy.

This isn't new. Warrior is a heavy melee class. That mobility is needed to get into range to fight. But them LoS'ing your skills is proper gameplay. Like I said before this piece boils down to Anet's design philosophy in this game.

58 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Power won't work when you can chain FC into defensives from other skills (shield block, gs evade, bull rush, free stab here and there, aegis on the banner which is not much but it's there). It's pretty much the same thing a virtuoso does, just so we're clear.

You complained about 1 heal skill and FC, not the gamut of defense. So, is FC actually the problem for you really? A class that is mostly melee focused needs defenses to get into melee range and fight on top of AoEs.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

28 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Defense spb is not glass.

 

I know, but he was talking about 19k+heavy armor, which is base stat warrior and not defense spb.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

3 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

... random kitten...

And one meaningful thing

You complained about 1 heal skill and FC, not the gamut of defense. So, is FC actually the problem for you really?

Full counter is the problem and the only thing I'd touch because I do not wish for other warrior builds to be nerfed just because of spellbreaker. Not a fan of the stab either, but I'll wait to see how it turns out.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Fueki.4753]

5 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Full counter is the problem and the only thing I'd touch because I do not wish for other warrior builds to be nerfed just because of spellbreaker.

It's not even Full Counter that needs to be touched.

It's Versatile Power that ought to be touched, as it is bugged and reduces Full Counter's CD too much.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Terrorhuz.4695]

7 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

It's not even Full Counter that needs to be touched.

It's Versatile Power that ought to be touched, as it is bugged and reduces Full Counter's CD too much.

NGL, I do think this propaganda that some 1.75s more cd on FC are changing everything is wishful thinking. It'd be better than now, don't get me wrong, but it's not going to solve anything.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Hotride.2187]

9 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

NGL, I do think this propaganda that some 1.75s more cd on FC are changing everything is wishful thinking. It'd be better than now, don't get me wrong, but it's not going to solve everything.

Pretty sure the only thing to do is delete the entire defense traitline if you are also running spb.

If you are going with a FC cd increase to do anything, it will have to be something stupid like 20+ sec baseline, 15+ traited. And even then with the options you have in defense you can still build very tanky, but dagger leaps will still hit like a truck.