hammer auto attack rework idea

[arazoth.7290]

• hammer auto attack:  * The cast time changed to 0,75 seconds. 

                                                     * the hammer hits twice, the 1st hit on enemy contact and the 2nd time the enemy when the weapon returns to the player.

 

Let me enlighten how I see this animation, so you can imagine all the same.

1st hit contact: You throw the hammer like you already do, but now the hammer always goes the whole 1200 range even if the enemy is shorter.

This means that on exactly 1200 it reaches the enemy only and if shorter it goes through.

 2nd hit contact on return: Now the hammer also spins back to the player by mist energy while hitting enemies on return . Because of this it looks like you keep the momentum of a heavy hammer up because hit, return and swinging. 

 

The damage number how much this total does, can be adjusted according to pve/wvw/pvp ofcourse. But because it hits now twice, it gives more options I explain below.

in short explained: HAMMER 2X XDAMAGE/0,75 sec.

 

This needs a little damage readjusting to balance according to the 2 hits and reduced cast time

Pros: * Shiro : Impossible odds gets now more benefit from this if you have quickness or not, this would benefit the power builds in fluent gameplay/damage more.

          * Projectile finiser 100% : Because it is slow cast time, but still a projectile finisher: It ends now doing twice the projectile finisher in 1 cast time. This can benefit some hybrid builds by condi and combo fields or even as support with cleansing or other combo field options.

          * Because the projectile traveling speed is not fast, but also not slow this seems fine to not get an automatic machine gun effect of lot fast hitting projectiles.             

 

Cons: on shorter target ranges that it goes through and can hit other mobs/enemies unwanted.

           argument: In most cases this problem should be nullified by good positioning for hitting.

[Jobber.6348]

Interesting concept but from similar behaving skills that already exist like Water Dagger Autos from Elementalist, this sort of "boomerang" type skill tend to get caught on terrain on the way back or straight up missing the 2nd return trip, making the DPS output very inconsistent.

Now if you balance the skill around a boomerang effect with both hits hitting for full damage, you have a troublesome skill on your hands due to either being too strong or way too weak due to inconsistency.

Heads up: Hammer is already very inconsistent in performance which is why we don't really see it used often aside from niche cases. Adding more inconsistency may not be wise. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Virdo.1540]

Id kinda prefer an simpler solution. Hammer one jumps from one enemy to another (3 max)
and fix&buff Hammer 2

[Sobx.1758]

4 hours ago, Virdo.1540 said:

Id kinda prefer an simpler solution. Hammer one jumps from one enemy to another (3 max)

If you're ready to have its dmg almost halved then maybe 😄

Edited January 10, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If you're ready to have its dmg almost halved then maybe 😄

I wouldn't mind something akin to the sword toss mesmers have where it bounces multiple times between the same target but yea, hammer needs some love or a rework or both. The block power is eh, never been in a situation it was useful and the attack animations are too long for the pitiful damage it does.

[Justine.6351]

Sadly no one uses Vapor Blade either.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

8 hours ago, Justine.6351 said:

Sadly no one uses Vapor Blade either.

Not sure what you mean there.

[Jobber.6348]

On 1/12/2023 at 1:12 AM, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Not sure what you mean there.

Vapor Blade is the Water Dagger auto I mentioned, that is exactly how your proposal holds strong similarity to. As I've explained, it's pretty terribad. 

Vapor Blade - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Edited January 19, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Justine.6351]

20 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Vapor Blade is the Water Dagger auto I mentioned, that is exactly how your proposal holds strong similarity to. As I've explained, it's pretty terribad. 

Vapor Blade - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

A shame since it is a fun looking skill.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

2 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Vapor Blade is the Water Dagger auto I mentioned, that is exactly how your proposal holds strong similarity to. As I've explained, it's pretty terribad. 

Vapor Blade - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

I don't play elementalist but I was referring to greatsword mirror blade (no 2 power) for mesmers. The blade bounces between multiple targets, including allies dealing damage to the enemies it hits.

 

But in either event, Revenant's hammer needs a desperate rework.

[Redfeather.6401]

Hammer is painful to use. It's a combination of speed and animation that makes it feel wanting if that makes sense. Would be nice if it got a combo of 3 stylish throwing animations. Maybe each throw uses some kind of momentum from the return of the previous throw? 

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

39 minutes ago, Redfeather.6401 said:

Hammer is painful to use. It's a combination of speed and animation that makes it feel wanting if that makes sense. Would be nice if it got a combo of 3 stylish throwing animations. Maybe each throw uses some kind of momentum from the return of the previous throw? 

Hammers problem is and I kept reading it over and over again to see if I was missing something, what is it suppose to do? It's ranged, but the animations are so painfully slow that by the time several of the animations would land they miss or it will get you killed since you are in animation lockout. You can't even dodge interrupt the animation lockout on skill 3 of the hammer which is bad.

 

It has this odd barrier ability that says it stops projectiles but I have never seen it do despite trying to use it never mind it's odd placement away from the revenant.

 

It only afflicts one status effect which is chill.

 

And it also has only one defiance break ability which is on a painfully long cast time.

 

I mean maybe it's suppose to be a power weapon but compared to other sets it is lacking by a lot. It has no utility, it's defiance break hurts to use, its attacks are too long. If it was meant as some sort of ranged tank it doesn't do that well enough to matter. Just not sure. I mean if it did something like provide aegis or something it might get a spot in some rotations but outside of that I think people look at this one for novelty then put it away forever.

[Jobber.6348]

10 hours ago, Redfeather.6401 said:

Hammer is painful to use. It's a combination of speed and animation that makes it feel wanting if that makes sense. Would be nice if it got a combo of 3 stylish throwing animations. Maybe each throw uses some kind of momentum from the return of the previous throw? 

I can smell the animation locks already when you need to interrupt an auto to cast a skill. 
I'd much prefer if it just spun the Hammer like Mesmer GS. 

[Shao.7236]

Whatever change anyone wishes for. So long they do not take away 100% projectile finisher because that is what makes Hammer incredibly strong, especially against conditions or ranged enemies when playing Ventari. You are literally impossible to kill from afar because of the permanent solution of altering in between Field of the Mists with life stealing then Protective Solace clearing conditions around any targets you hit, whenever FotM is back your turn off PS to get energy back until the field runs out, if they are ranged they can never hit you, if they're too close, any conditions inflicted will be clear for every auto hit, all the while the tablet pulses also passively heals you.

In between Shiro and Dwarf there are also so many combination of things that can be done, it's clear to me this weapon is just misunderstood outside the buggy rework of CoR.

If it wasn't for Mallyx being constantly misunderstood, you used to be able to condi bomb people with Phase Smash but the delay they added really messed it up that it takes very precise timing now which may as well be considered impossible unless targets are right next to you. Diabolic Inferno + Abyssal Chill + Phase Smash + SoTM would result in 6 different conditions depending what legend you go for. (Slow/Weakness, Torment, Burn, Poison, Chill.)

Edited January 31, 2023 by Shao.7236

[Jobber.6348]

9 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

In between Shiro and Dwarf there are also so many combination of things that can be done, it's clear to me this weapon is just misunderstood outside the buggy rework of CoR.

Imo it's clunkiness that turns people off. When people set up a loadout, they want at least 80% - 90% consistency (if you factor in things like the target's reactions and your personal reactions to the combat situation) 

Hammer (and some other Rev skills) are very inconsistent, and that inconsistency just makes Hammer look bad. Honestly, could take a step by step approach and nail down any part of Hammer that is currently inconsistent first, then we can talk about other aspects of Hammer. 

COR - definitely needs to be "fixed" or made foolproof

PS - There seems to be an equal number of people who hate the lengthy animation or the concept itself while others like it

DTH - No one likes current DTH. Current DTH also doesn't like itself. 

 

Once these are smoothened out, then we can talk about Auto options. 
In my case, I'd like the auto to retain the same animation but you launch 3 bolts in a "burst" instead of one with 33% Proj chance each. 

[Cuks.8241]

I rally really like the hammer animations, auto included. They really feel heavy like throwing a hammer should. So I don't really like any of these auto proposals (boomerang, 3 projectiles). 

Why not just increase the dmg significantly in pve (its the best 1200 range burst weapon in WvW, constantly nerfed and still best). I just threw a big hammer in your face, it should hurt like hell. 

[Jobber.6348]

6 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I rally really like the hammer animations, auto included. They really feel heavy like throwing a hammer should. So I don't really like any of these auto proposals (boomerang, 3 projectiles). 

Why not just increase the dmg significantly in pve (its the best 1200 range burst weapon in WvW, constantly nerfed and still best). I just threw a big hammer in your face, it should hurt like hell. 

Ngl kinda pointless to fall in love with a slow animation because in PvE content, you will be getting Quickness occasionally, which speeds up your animations anyway. 

 

It could get a damage buff sure, but doesn't change the fact that there are so many aspects of Hammer that makes it undesirable as a ranged weapon. You could make it hit like 10 freight trains but if it feels as sluggish as 10 freight trains in a massive wreck, people will always turn to/look for alternatives. 

 

 

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

10 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I rally really like the hammer animations, auto included. They really feel heavy like throwing a hammer should. So I don't really like any of these auto proposals (boomerang, 3 projectiles). 

Why not just increase the dmg significantly in pve (its the best 1200 range burst weapon in WvW, constantly nerfed and still best). I just threw a big hammer in your face, it should hurt like hell. 

Going to have strongly disagree they don't feel heavy. And even giving you that one that doesn't give the excuse for the hammer to be so bad. There is no flow in hammer, and I know some claim to find use for it in PvP, there are just better weapons and solutions well over this. I want to use the hammer, if it was a nice tanky or protective weapon like it suggested I would be all for it, but considering it's only trait is being slow and having uninteruptable animations, no. It's not good. Slow does not equal feeling heavy.

 

What will make it feel heavy is if I know it can actually do some DPS and not get side stepped or laughed off just because someone can make a sammmich in the time my next hammer hit comes in.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[Cuks.8241]

13 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

 There is no flow in hammer, and I know some claim to find use for it in PvP, there are just better weapons and solutions well over this. 

Claim to find use for it? Hammer is the best 1200 range spike burst weapon in the game in wvw. Hammer revs are the range spike backbone of a wvw squad even after many nerfs. If 5 revs hit their PS at the same time and on the same enemies they are downed. If you can combo it with Cor even better. You can also combo hammer 5 so all 3 hit at almost the same time. 

Staff weaver has better dps at 1200 range but its mostly ticking dmg pressure. In pvp its all about front loaded burst. 

Ok lets say feeling heavy is subjective. But biggest burst range weapon can qualify for that imo. 

[Shao.7236]

3 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Claim to find use for it? Hammer is the best 1200 range spike burst weapon in the game in wvw. Hammer revs are the range spike backbone of a wvw squad even after many nerfs. If 5 revs hit their PS at the same time and on the same enemies they are downed. If you can combo it with Cor even better. You can also combo hammer 5 so all 3 hit at almost the same time. 

Staff weaver has better dps at 1200 range but its mostly ticking dmg pressure. In pvp its all about front loaded burst. 

Ok lets say feeling heavy is subjective. But biggest burst range weapon can qualify for that imo. 

If it wasn't for CoR hitbox jank they introduced, hammer would be hands down one of the best ranged weapon with only being terrain dependent the thing that stops it from dominating all the other. Being slow has nothing on having 50% uptime on projectile denial not counting every other options Revenant has. Feels like they're keeping it buggy on purpose.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Shao.7236

[Jobber.6348]

4 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Hammer is the best 1200 range spike burst weapon in the game in wvw.

Not really though. Pretty sure Necros still hold that top spot with Mark Spam, especially since Marks were buffed. There's so much projectile hate in modern wvw right now that the only things actually hitting is CoR (occasionally when the server feels like it) and PS. That's spike damage? Lol? Combo Hammer 5? With its cast time? What kinda combo is that? 

PS in WvW is also outdamaged by Putrid Mark, and Necro Staff still has Chillblains and Mark of Blood that bypasses projectile hate. 

 

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

If it wasn't for CoR hitbox jank they introduced, hammer would be hands down one of the best ranged weapon with only being terrain dependent the thing that stops it from dominating all the other. Being slow has nothing on having 50% uptime on projectile denial not counting every other options Revenant has. Feels like they're keeping it buggy on purpose.

I'll never forgive Anet for removing Quickness from IO in order to indirectly mess with Hammer. We're all thinking it, but it's probably true. Hammer was pretty darn cool when it worked with IO Quickness. Those Hammer shots didn't feel all that bad at all. PS was quick and responsive, DTH was actually pretty good for area denial in small skirmishes. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Jobber.6348]

Was just in WvW to play around with Hammer and tbh the projectile speed is also kinda slow. Instead of an intuitive fast animate - fast feedback animation like Pistols, Rifle or Bows, Hammer has a spinning projectile that travels rather slowly, probably to balance its pierce feature. 

Question to Hammer users/potential Hammer users here, Would you rather:

1. Vastly faster projectile speed for lower cap on piercing

2. Keep as is

Edited February 3, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[draxynnic.3719]

On 1/19/2023 at 10:49 AM, Yasai.3549 said:

Vapor Blade is the Water Dagger auto I mentioned, that is exactly how your proposal holds strong similarity to. As I've explained, it's pretty terribad. 

Vapor Blade - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

To be fair, Vapor Blade is subject to two 'taxes' - first it's a Water Attunement skill which has pretty much been synonymous with terrible DPS until EoD. Second, it's the token ranged attack on an otherwise melee weapon. Under the design paradigm at the time, it's basically a 'well, it's technically better than doing nothing' skill.

 

On 2/2/2023 at 5:01 AM, Cuks.8241 said:

I rally really like the hammer animations, auto included. They really feel heavy like throwing a hammer should. So I don't really like any of these auto proposals (boomerang, 3 projectiles). 

Why not just increase the dmg significantly in pve (its the best 1200 range burst weapon in WvW, constantly nerfed and still best). I just threw a big hammer in your face, it should hurt like hell. 

Conceptually, I agree. In practice, though, a lot of other revenant stuff, especially power revenant stuff, relies on landing hits every half second or so - IO, the Kalla elite, Battle Scars procs, and so on. As a result, the slow attack speed is a handicap when it comes to synergising with those abilities. It's why renegade never uses hammer even when playing power.

Simply buffing hammer enough that it's competitive DESPITE this could be a suitable approach, but it could be hard to thread the needle between 'bad because it antisynergises with other power revenant options' and a possible 'too good because you don't need to spend energy on those other skills and therefore always have energy for something else'.

[Jobber.6348]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

To be fair, Vapor Blade is subject to two 'taxes' - first it's a Water Attunement skill which has pretty much been synonymous with terrible DPS until EoD. Second, it's the token ranged attack on an otherwise melee weapon. Under the design paradigm at the time, it's basically a 'well, it's technically better than doing nothing' skill.

No need to be fair. If it's bad it's bad, lol. I've been in and out of Ele Dagger rework threads, and alot of people straight up want Anet to replace Vapor Blade with something like Druid's Staff healing. Everyone hates that skill. 

[draxynnic.3719]

4 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

No need to be fair. If it's bad it's bad, lol. I've been in and out of Ele Dagger rework threads, and alot of people straight up want Anet to replace Vapor Blade with something like Druid's Staff healing. Everyone hates that skill. 

When drawing analogies, I think it's important to consider the context. I've fairly rarely seen Vapor Blade getting caught on terrain on the way back (it does happen because, hey, it's a projectile and subject to being blocked by terrain, and it's a little more likely to be blocked on the way back due to the player's movement), what makes it bad is that it might as well be renamed Wet Noodle. Even in ideal conditions where it strikes again on the return successfully, it does less DPS to a single target than any non-Water staff auto (or, for that matter, the Water sceptre auto) despite having a substantially shorter range, less damage than a single strike from Dragon's Claw, and barely more than half of the damage of Lightning Whip. I don't think it necessarily says anything about the mechanic in general when the core problem is that the coefficient is just so low to begin with (likely for the reasons I outlined). It'd be like saying that all bouncing attacks are bad because Chain Lightning is weak.

While this isn't the thread, I'm pretty sure that Vapor Blade would be a decent skill if its coefficient was raised by about 50%.

Seriously, it's one of the few skills that didn't have its damage split between PvE and PvP, and such unsplit skills are pretty much always weak in PvE, damage-wise (and Vapor Blade doesn't offer anything else). ArenaNet knows it's a wet noodle.