So I'm a newbie and have played every class up to 20 to decide what to main..

[Squishy.6139]

And Mesmer just feels.. INCREDIBLY weak compared to everything else, is this normal? Are they in a bad place?
Do they shine later? I do really like the theme of their skills, particularly staff and greatsword!

[Nymeria.1653]

I'm not a mesmer expert and I consider myself a forever newbie since I played the game discontinously. Compared to other professions I think mesmer is a bit hard to play, well it's not hard but it's not super intuitive to play at first, but I don't consider it weak at all, so probably you just need to understand some mechanics of this profession but for that I can't help you, so let's wait for more expert players ^^

[Ruisenior.6342]

    The only downside i had while playing mesmer was dealing with packs of mobs, but then virtuoso kicked in on eod launch and solved this problem.

     Later on, when lvled and geared, you will find on it one of the strongest and more versatile classes of the game, with lots of builds to mess around. 

     If you like Staff and Greatsword you will be able to make a builds around them cause they are both strong choices, specially staff on mirage for all kind of pve content (this class adds a mechanic that changes your dodge and during the animation frames they allow you to perform a powerfull skill with your autoattack, and the staff one is probably the best of all weapons) and greatsword is pretty good too, specially clearing trash while doing pve cause its high burst and one of the deadliest weapons for pvp.

   

     You won't miss picking this class if you like it, and i suggest you to go for mirage as your first elite spec because its the easier to perform good with and using staff/staff you can run one build for all content with few tweaks and later try other stuff but having a good base 🙂

[AliamRationem.5172]

59 minutes ago, Squishy.6139 said:

And Mesmer just feels.. INCREDIBLY weak compared to everything else, is this normal? Are they in a bad place?
Do they shine later? I do really like the theme of their skills, particularly staff and greatsword!

Core mesmer is pretty weak, but the elite specs aren't.  All of the elite specs have strong DPS builds for raiding and such.  Mirage is also viable as alacrity support.  If solo play is more your thing, mirage is also among the best builds in the game for soloing really difficult bosses.

Greatsword is used in power builds.  Currently, that's going to be either chronomancer which uses sword and greatsword or power virtuoso which uses dagger and greatsword.

Staff is more of a support and condition weapon.  It's used by condi mirage and alac support mirage builds.  It's also a popular choice for mirage in solo play due to its effortless sustain and powerful self-boon support.

If your primary issue is staying alive, then unlock mirage first and use staff with some tanky condi stats (I like celestial stats for this).  If you like a bit more complexity you can pair it with axe, but staff alone is absolute ez mode for solo open world/story content.  Here's a sample clip of staff mirage.  You can see it pretty effortlessly handles this open world champion in under a minute.  The best part if you're new is that it doesn't really require much skill or knowledge to play as so much of its offense, defense, and utility is generated by simply dodging and using the 1 skill!

[taara.3217]

5 hours ago, Squishy.6139 said:

Do they shine later? I do really like the theme of their skills, particularly staff and greatsword!

don't worry, move forward with Mesmer, especially you really like it.

[Moradorin.6217]

7 hours ago, Squishy.6139 said:

And Mesmer just feels.. INCREDIBLY weak compared to everything else, is this normal? Are they in a bad place?
Do they shine later? I do really like the theme of their skills, particularly staff and greatsword!

In some ways it can feel very powerful. In the right situations its the best option. That said, in general, Mesmer is typically less reliable than any other class for being able to just kill things and move through content and other typical frequent activies a player might do. Its partly due to dependence upon clones, its partly due to many people having a thing against the class either due because it traditionally has offered useful utility like ports + damage or tanking ability in pve or in pvp/wvw it was often a high performing 1 shot machine or a high sustain wear u down kinda condi both of which made people mad and caused the class to get, no joke, 3+ solid years of nerfs to get to its present state.

 

That said, it can still be fun and even be a best option for a few things. I would 100% agree tho that its lacking at low lvl compared to others and generally even at 80 I find it to be the least convenient class for just running around to have fun (I dont play Virt tho) mostly due to how clones despawn easier/are harder to chain persist now + the base weapon damage, etc it not very good for just quick trouble free play compared to say engi, thief, ranger, necro, guard, war. Someone may come say Im all wrong, but what ever. I stand by this.

 

Added: Also Im not saying dont play it. Im saying yes I agree with your impressions. Im also adding that Even at 80 Core, Mirage and Chrono still run into allot of issues that make them less than ideal allot of the time. Like every class they all have easier specific builds. For Mirage most will suggest staff/staff which is gimpy due to 1 set of weapon skills for 2 weapon sets. None the less it does work ok its just kinda lame. Chrono can be good but in pve Im not sure its a best choice to just running around having an easy fun time. Virt I guess is the new go to because it sidelines clones, but its all projectile and you get 5 daggers floating over your toon all the time. Its not for me, but its popular enough I guess. Also what AliamRationem said is accurate

Edited January 18, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[Infusion.7149]

Core mesmer is a poor openworld class due to clones disappearing after killing trash mobs. Power mesmers generally derive some damage from shattering clones, whereas virtuoso gets around this via blades (bladesongs instead of shatters) allowing for higher burst and better movement between groups of mobs.

I would stick with mesmer unless you plan on playing something else as both greatsword and staff are used on meta builds in endgame content (greatsword wasn't originally but after a series of improvements it is used on quickness chronomancer and power virtuoso).

The strongest core classes right now are probably power warrior and guardian which are both melee when you get to the endgame and maybe rifle engineer. The bonus of warrior is you don't need an elite spec to output quickness. Ranger is strong on its elite specs (greatsword, axes, hammer, longbow with the recent improvements) but honestly nobody considers core ranger, revenant renegade used to be part of the meta but now is mostly run on condition damage (power herald works too however) with the core revenant no longer able to provide alacrity, necromancer is decent if you don't fall into the minion mentality (scourge is the best pick generally if you play necromancer but power necromancers are lacking in general). I would avoid elementalist (unless you play scepter it really isn't new player friendly; power elementalist usually isn't the strongest way to play) and thief (the payoff on playing thief isn't there right now in most situations ; core thief doesn't have access to good cleave).

edit: Also keep in mind Greatsword is used by power warriors, power guardians (Dragonhunters mainly), vindicator revenants, power rangers (soulbeasts), and the often ignored in endgame power reaper necromancer.

Staff is run on a far lower subset of builds including power revenants , healing druid rangers, heal firebrand guardians, power daredevil thieves, and power reaper necromancers (as of recent improvements) .

Edited January 18, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Mell.4873]

7 hours ago, Squishy.6139 said:

And Mesmer just feels.. INCREDIBLY weak compared to everything else, is this normal? Are they in a bad place?
Do they shine later? I do really like the theme of their skills, particularly staff and greatsword!

Core Mesmer really rellies on Condition Damage like confusion which is really hard to boost in terms of damage untill you have decent gear at level 80.

Even a shatter like @Infusion.7149points out is horrible in the open world due to how long clones can last. 

[Infusion.7149]

Core mesmer is not a strong condition class since you don't have the ambushes from mirage nor do you have axe mainhand.

See benchmarks of core mesmer:

 

 

[Justine.6351]

I play core power mes in open world but when I get on my celestial firebrand its night and day. Mes you have to mind your position and facing and clone counts. If you blow a big button without setup you stand around auto attacking. Firebrand you have more big buttons then you know what to do with.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

most people nowadays dont really know how to play core mes or chrono (basically core mes mk2) in pve anymore. i can say that they definitely work and are not weak (tho core necro is a really poor standard to compare against) when you actually know how to play them, but it would seem that like many others youd be more invested in either mirage or virt, which only become available at max lvl

“clones disappearing on trash” sounds more like poor skill/resource management and isnt actually a real problem. then again core mesmers profession mechanic isnt entirely intuitive, proven with the greater preference to virts simpler “always stack max blades” mindset or how mirage sometimes dont shatter at all

[Jitters.9401]

21 hours ago, Nymeria.1653 said:

I'm not a mesmer expert and I consider myself a forever newbie since I played the game discontinously. Compared to other professions I think mesmer is a bit hard to play, well it's not hard but it's not super intuitive to play at first, but I don't consider it weak at all, so probably you just need to understand some mechanics of this profession but for that I can't help you, so let's wait for more expert players ^^

Core condi mesmer is King/Queen for pve. 

 

Using Core... condition...  I soloed every Hero Challenge that earned you 10 hero points with only 1st attempts except Balthazars Rest. I died once. Tried it another time (again with the champion up)  and did not die.

 

Core condi mesmer is a beast in pve. 

[Moradorin.6217]

12 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

most people nowadays dont really know how to play core mes or chrono (basically core mes mk2) in pve anymore. i can say that they definitely work and are not weak (tho core necro is a really poor standard to compare against) when you actually know how to play them, but it would seem that like many others youd be more invested in either mirage or virt, which only become available at max lvl

“clones disappearing on trash” sounds more like poor skill/resource management and isnt actually a real problem. then again core mesmers profession mechanic isnt entirely intuitive, proven with the greater preference to virts simpler “always stack max blades” mindset or how mirage sometimes dont shatter at all

Do you actually play still though, in all frankness? You seem to be trying hard to put a vague positive spin without actually addressing anything realistic.

13 hours ago, Justine.6351 said:

I play core power mes in open world but when I get on my celestial firebrand its night and day. Mes you have to mind your position and facing and clone counts. If you blow a big button without setup you stand around auto attacking. Firebrand you have more big buttons then you know what to do with.

Yeah I can relate to this.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[Noodle Ant.1605]

37 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Do you actually play still though, in all frankness? You seem to be trying hard to put a vague positive spin without actually addressing anything realistic.

im not sure what youre trying to imply here?

nothings really changed with core mes/chrono in pve since eod (virt release) aside from straight up buffs back when it was *the* power option, hence more people just knew how to work with instant shatters and around overkilling enemies and wasting clones/phantasms. there are still power mirage enjoyers out there which is still majority core  and offers barely any additional offensive value while chrono (core mk2 because chronophantasma, which doesnt help with trash anyway) is still there, just that no one wants to play it anymore. so i highly doubt the problem is anything to do with core mes being specifically “weak” rather than it just not being played effectively. thats why i mention that the core mechanic might just be unintuitive and that like the majority, most might be better off overlooking over the core class and going straight at mirage/virt instead

i could start explaining why sitting on gs/staff isnt going to feel powerful on core, but then it gets confusing because its actually alright to do that on the especs? it doesnt seem as though core mes playstyle is clicking for the op in the first place

[Moradorin.6217]

21 minutes ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

im not sure what youre trying to imply here?

nothings really changed with core mes/chrono in pve since eod (virt release) aside from straight up buffs back when it was *the* power option, hence more people just knew how to work with instant shatters and around overkilling enemies and wasting clones/phantasms. there are still power mirage enjoyers out there which is still majority core  and offers barely any additional offensive value while chrono (core mk2 because chronophantasma, which doesnt help with trash anyway) is still there, just that no one wants to play it anymore. so i highly doubt the problem is anything to do with core mes being specifically “weak” rather than it just not being played effectively. thats why i mention that the core mechanic might just be unintuitive and that like the majority, most might be better off overlooking over the core class and going straight at mirage/virt instead

i could start explaining why sitting on gs/staff isnt going to feel powerful on core, but then it gets confusing because its actually alright to do that on the especs? it doesnt seem as though core mes playstyle is clicking for the op in the first place

Its that compared to other classes it cannot keep up. Its really that simple. Yeah sure core for burst will have more options for beneficial traits than a Mirage but the Mirage will be able to clear a meta event with allot of spawns better. That said, I can run around with a Guard, war, ranger, necro or others and be able to clear both the meta and burst down trash with less delays and less need to be precise even vs playing Mesmer. As Justine said its not that Mesmer cannot work its that compared to other specs like his ref. to FB that the others are more forgiving and easier to operate and can clear as well if not better. As I said before, what I see as the advantage for playing Mes is utility like ports, however, it comes at a cost that impacts ease of general use compared to many others.

 

The reason I guestion if you still play is mutli-tier.

 

One: You arent a requent poster anymore and have a low post count for how long u have been around.

Two: Your posts talk in generalizations that dont sound like maybe you n longer play but are refering to memory and past experiences which is fine, but also is maybe a little rose tinted.

Three: You seem to like to avoid admiting that Mesmer has weakness compared to other specs which is just blatantly false.

 

Personally, I get a little tired of people who used to play returning to the forums to then tell all of us who still actually play how we must be wrong and lacking in knowledge. So many Mesmer who say the class is awsome that dont seem to be active players its frustrating and makes me sad.

 

I have allot of friends who LOVE to play ele and tell me how op Mesmer is but never opt to play mesmer over ele when they play. Hmmmm... that kinda thing always smells like bias to me.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 1/18/2023 at 12:29 PM, Squishy.6139 said:

And Mesmer just feels.. INCREDIBLY weak compared to everything else, is this normal? Are they in a bad place?
Do they shine later? I do really like the theme of their skills, particularly staff and greatsword!

problem is that mesmers base proffesion is terrible, you need elite specialisations for it to function. while other classes are a lot more functional out of the box. mesmer can be more or less on par with other classes in pve late game

[Noodle Ant.1605]

8 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Its that compared to other classes it cannot keep up. Its really that simple. Yeah sure core for burst will have more options for beneficial traits than a Mirage but the Mirage will be able to clear a meta event with allot of spawns better. That said, I can run around with a Guard, war, ranger, necro or others and be able to clear both the meta and burst down trash with less delays and less need to be precise even vs playing Mesmer. As Justine said its not that Mesmer cannot work its that compared to other specs like his ref. to FB that the others are more forgiving and easier to operate and can clear as well if not better. As I said before, what I see as the advantage for playing Mes is utility like ports, however, it comes at a cost that impacts ease of general use compared to many others.

are you comparing core to core, or core to especs? you tell me how core rev/ranger/necro/ele feels "powerful" compared to core mes. ofc core doesnt directly compare to especs, barely any core spec does and the context is that the op has only gone up to lv20 with each of them. from my deduction, the op isnt playing it as effectively as they could be (hence why it feels weak, its like using scepter/staff on pve condi virt then screaming that its weak?), hence the mention of chrono/power mirage players at endgame because they still mostly rely on core elements

8 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

The reason I guestion if you still play is mutli-tier.

 

One: You arent a requent poster anymore and have a low post count for how long u have been around.

Two: Your posts talk in generalizations that dont sound like maybe you n longer play but are refering to memory and past experiences which is fine, but also is maybe a little rose tinted.

Three: You seem to like to avoid admiting that Mesmer has weakness compared to other specs which is just blatantly false.

i post when i want to, and a low post count at least means that im not spamming 10 misinformative posts every week right? and i havent avoided anything, ive said multiple times that the core profession mechanic is not intuitive and that players require better skill/resource management straight off the bat to avoid wasting clones

but the thing is a low clone-gen build wont rely as much on shatter dmg and a high clone-gen build can easily replace their clones... so if core mesmer is weak then this isnt actually the real problem??? like maybe if pve virt didnt get baby'd and core mesmer was buffed instead of bandaid-fixing chrono, maybe it couldve been stronger? why would they buff core tho

8 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Personally, I get a little tired of people who used to play returning to the forums to then tell all of us who still actually play how we must be wrong and lacking in knowledge. So many Mesmer who say the class is awsome that dont seem to be active players its frustrating and makes me sad.

 

I have allot of friends who LOVE to play ele and tell me how op Mesmer is but never opt to play mesmer over ele when they play. Hmmmm... that kinda thing always smells like bias to me.

never said core mes was op/awesome but ok. wonder why i too just said to focus one mirage/virt instead

[Moradorin.6217]

15 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

ofc core doesnt directly compare to especs, barely any core spec does and the context is that the op has only gone up to lv20 with each of them.

Agreed Core != especs nor should it in my mind. However, you minced the two in your post openly and that is what I was responding to.

For instance here. You mince them all together as you write. to build up an overall tone that Mesmer is strong cause various specs have various strengths without ever actually saying how or why core (not chrono or anything else) is a strong core class option. You just say anyone who says its not strong is wrong. Then you mince them all together as your paragraph progresses....

23 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

im not sure what youre trying to imply here?

nothings really changed with core mes/chrono in pve since eod (virt release) aside from straight up buffs back when it was *the* power option, hence more people just knew how to work with instant shatters and around overkilling enemies and wasting clones/phantasms. there are still power mirage enjoyers out there which is still majority core  and offers barely any additional offensive value while chrono (core mk2 because chronophantasma, which doesnt help with trash anyway) is still there, just that no one wants to play it anymore. so i highly doubt the problem is anything to do with core mes being specifically “weak” rather than it just not being played effectively. thats why i mention that the core mechanic might just be unintuitive and that like the majority, most might be better off overlooking over the core class and going straight at mirage/virt instead

The tweaks to staff and everything for mesmer in the last 3 years have been nerfs for Mirage specifically and often weakened core too untill the last patches that flat out boosted some damage multipliers.

All the while Mirage still lacks 2 dodges.

Mesmer has not had serious attention since phant reword, like what, 6 years ago? They did some hasty dist restores a few mo ago but that was just a red herring to let them rework eod + the other classes especs.

They still have not really done anything to bring Mesmer into shape since gutting it many years ago. All that is done are small # tweaks and cooldown changes, most of the time that further nerf Mirage in some way without really boosting anything else.

Hell Vindicator has two dodges now.....wtf how can act like Mesmer is not in a kitten place for balance and general quality compared to the rest.

 

You talk about people just needing to be skilled cause instant burst. Yeah we all know u can get up close and burst. We all know we can generate clones and shatter. We are saying that To do what you describe takes more button pressing, more timing and if you make a mistake you dont have another big button (Justines term) and end up needing to wait for cooldowns or getting by with auto attacks. Meanwhile if Im on say a ranger I can just swap from longbow to GS and use the other big burst or just use my pet. Alternatively if I wana run condi I could run around with traps and just spam and kill stuff with random axe, shortbow and trap spam and when I get low just use guard and heal as one, then if I really need more I add a signet for a few seconds of invuln. Or on guardiant I do the same but I just run around and burst everything with sword and focus + swap to GS when I mess up and maybe carry a few concecrations for good measure. Or on necro I just run around with a ton of mininons and just sorta roll over and through most open world content without needing to hardly time any skills other than maybe dodge and heal. Core Rev (really an espec imo) has legend swap so Jalis and either Shiro or Demon depending. Again roll over things with 2 heals, staff and either 2 swords or a mace and axe and just roll over stuff all day long. If you know the skill bar on Rev its hard to say its anything but strong. on and on. Give me a break

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[Noodle Ant.1605]

21 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

However, you minced the two in your post openly and that is what I was responding to.

For instance here. You mince them all together as you write. to build up an overall tone that Mesmer is strong cause various specs have various strengths without ever actually saying how or why core (not chrono or anything else) is a strong core class option. You just say anyone who says its not strong is wrong. Then you mince them all together as your paragraph progresses....

The tweaks to staff and everything for mesmer in the last 3 years have been nerfs for Mirage specifically and often weakened core too untill the last patches that flat out boosted some damage multipliers.

All the while Mirage still lacks 2 dodges.

Mesmer has not had serious attention since phant reword, like what, 6 years ago? They did some hasty dist restores a few mo ago but that was just a red herring to let them rework eod + the other classes especs.

They still have not really done anything to bring Mesmer into shape since gutting it many years ago. All that is done are small # tweaks and cooldown changes, most of the time that further nerf Mirage in some way without really boosting anything else.

Hell Vindicator has two dodges now.....wtf how can act like Mesmer is not in a kitten place for balance and general quality compared to the rest.

 

You talk about people just needing to be skilled cause instant burst. Yeah we all know u can get up close and burst. We all know we can generate clones and shatter. We are saying that To do what you describe takes more button pressing, more timing and if you make a mistake you dont have another big button (Justines term) and end up needing to wait for cooldowns or getting by with auto attacks. Meanwhile if Im on say a ranger I can just swap from longbow to GS and use the other big burst or just use my pet. Alternatively if I wana run condi I could run around with traps and just spam and kill stuff with random axe, shortbow and trap spam and when I get low just use guard and heal as one, then if I really need more I add a signet for a few seconds of invuln. Or on guardiant I do the same but I just run around and burst everything with sword and focus + swap to GS when I mess up and maybe carry a few concecrations for good measure. Or on necro I just run around with a ton of mininons and just sorta roll over and through most open world content without needing to hardly time any skills other than maybe dodge and heal. Core Rev (really an espec imo) has legend swap so Jalis and either Shiro or Demon depending. Again roll over things with 2 heals, staff and either 2 swords or a mace and axe and just roll over stuff all day long. If you know the skill bar on Rev its hard to say its anything but strong. on and on. Give me a break

 

your mesmer concerns are all respectable, but how is firebrand or vindicator or non-core mesmer balance relevant to a core mesmer thats still stuck levelling?

i think your frustration is misplaced, op asked if a levelling pve mesmer was (INCREDIBLY) weak to which i responded no and that it works. true to my word, i never said that it was good/great/strong or better and it was never implied that it needed nerfs/couldnt use some more buffs. this isnt the right thread for that though

in a levelling context, in between being able to deal notable amounts instant dmg, phantasms that use exotic wep strength regardless of commonly underlevelled blue/green weapons, relatively jacked mesmer sword autos and small core trash mob hp pools, mesmer should have it fairly well off for the most part. its at higher levels and when all the traitlines are unlocked that the weakness starts to kick in (lack of crit chance/free offensive stat boosts, phantasm skills stop being powerful, mobs become harder & trading blows becomes riskier) but by then the especs are just around the corner anyway

what mistakes are you making on brainless pve mobs? how is core guard bursting then having to auto fundamentally any different to mesmer bursting then having to auto? are you just going to ignore the fact that both heals on rev barely outputs more theoretical hp/s than 3 clone ether feast? ignore how much effort it takes for core necro to output more dmg than just mesmer sword autos?

obviously core mesmer cant do everything at once and is not without its flaws and problems, but painting it as cripplingly weak is just as false as saying that its strong and awesome. it could just be that despite being middling, core mesmer is just additionally hard to pick up and ive made absolutely no effort to hide that from the very start

[Moradorin.6217]

17 minutes ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

your mesmer concerns are all respectable, but how is firebrand or vindicator or non-core mesmer balance relevant to a core mesmer thats still stuck levelling?

i think your frustration is misplaced, op asked if a levelling pve mesmer was (INCREDIBLY) weak to which i responded no and that it works. true to my word, i never said that it was good/great/strong or better and it was never implied that it needed nerfs/couldnt use some more buffs. this isnt the right thread for that though

in a levelling context, in between being able to deal notable amounts instant dmg, phantasms that use exotic wep strength regardless of commonly underlevelled blue/green weapons, relatively jacked mesmer sword autos and small core trash mob hp pools, mesmer should have it fairly well off for the most part. its at higher levels and when all the traitlines are unlocked that the weakness starts to kick in (lack of crit chance/free offensive stat boosts, phantasm skills stop being powerful, mobs become harder & trading blows becomes riskier) but by then the especs are just around the corner anyway

what mistakes are you making on brainless pve mobs? how is core guard bursting then having to auto fundamentally any different to mesmer bursting then having to auto? are you just going to ignore the fact that both heals on rev barely outputs more theoretical hp/s than 3 clone ether feast? ignore how much effort it takes for core necro to output more dmg than just mesmer sword autos?

obviously core mesmer cant do everything at once and is not without its flaws and problems, but painting it as cripplingly weak is just as false as saying that its strong and awesome. it could just be that despite being middling, core mesmer is just additionally hard to pick up and ive made absolutely no effort to hide that from the very start

I hear ya and agree that it works. However, I feel like you went way past saying that core works. You seemed to want to imply that it works as well as most other core specs and that it has just as many big damage button mashable skills as guard, ranger, etc which I 100% dont agree with. That was what I was saying. I think Mesmer core is way weaker than the other core specs. That said, sure it works just fine.

 

Guard has more bigger burst and more weapon options. On Mesmer you kinda lack the same type of damage utility options and other utility options most classes get instead you get allot of interesting clone and field utilities that are much more niche. You cannot pack out a mesmer with a ton of damage skills for instance like you can on ranger and guard. Also you have way less off hand options that can do damage or really mitigate damage. Guardian for isntance has the sword+foxus combo. Nearest mesmer would have I would say is s/s. I would say guardian w baked in gap cloer to get to next group of mobs plus its larger bursts and its ability to then swap to GS and do a big combo field a big burst then swap back to s/f is way more powerful at low levels. They also get stuff like passive heals as a % of damage they deal and other things that core mesmer doesnt get unless it guts all its damage traits for sustain. So guard, ranger, etc can have more sustain while still dealing big damage and has they have more damage skills to use for less down time and gives them the ability to be unskillful in the use of it all and still do well meanwhile the mesmer will be very sensitite to trait changes and mistakes.

Edited January 21, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[Moradorin.6217]

On 1/18/2023 at 6:21 PM, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

most people nowadays dont really know how to play core mes or chrono (basically core mes mk2) in pve anymore.

Just to point out that you keep asserting Im mincing core @ lvl 20 vs especs without reason in my responses. Here you are doing just that in your initial post.

[Moradorin.6217]

3 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

your mesmer concerns are all respectable, but how is firebrand or vindicator or non-core mesmer balance relevant to a core mesmer thats still stuck levelling?

i think your frustration is misplaced, op asked if a levelling pve mesmer was (INCREDIBLY) weak to which i responded no and that it works. true to my word, i never said that it was good/great/strong or better and it was never implied that it needed nerfs/couldnt use some more buffs. this isnt the right thread for that though

in a levelling context, in between being able to deal notable amounts instant dmg, phantasms that use exotic wep strength regardless of commonly underlevelled blue/green weapons, relatively jacked mesmer sword autos and small core trash mob hp pools, mesmer should have it fairly well off for the most part. its at higher levels and when all the traitlines are unlocked that the weakness starts to kick in (lack of crit chance/free offensive stat boosts, phantasm skills stop being powerful, mobs become harder & trading blows becomes riskier) but by then the especs are just around the corner anyway

what mistakes are you making on brainless pve mobs? how is core guard bursting then having to auto fundamentally any different to mesmer bursting then having to auto? are you just going to ignore the fact that both heals on rev barely outputs more theoretical hp/s than 3 clone ether feast? ignore how much effort it takes for core necro to output more dmg than just mesmer sword autos?

obviously core mesmer cant do everything at once and is not without its flaws and problems, but painting it as cripplingly weak is just as false as saying that its strong and awesome. it could just be that despite being middling, core mesmer is just additionally hard to pick up and ive made absolutely no effort to hide that from the very start

Ok if you wana talk about rev what are my 50% and 20% damage mitigation options to toggle on and off before and after my heals on a Mesmer like a rev? When do I get to spam chills, imob, etc on the opponent w my power spec's base attacks without traiting anything to get it. Also the Jalis heal removes an kitten of condi too and staff has a 2 second block and also a heal on 4 that removes more condi and then you can always use 5 if you wana evade even more and also another heal on staff 2 all available to core. Then if you wana go back to dishing damage you can swap to s/s which also gets a nice evade and all the nice chill + imob, a gap closer, etc. Its so much better than the best mesmer setup I think its silly to compare.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

19 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Just to point out that you keep asserting Im mincing core @ lvl 20 vs especs without reason in my responses. Here you are doing just that in your initial post.

strange that you took a broad generalisation that didnt specify anyone as a personal attack but ok. meanwhile you think i havent played in while because of a low post count?
you did initially say you were going to stand by your opinion so 🤷‍♀️🙂

[Moradorin.6217]

2 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

strange that you took a broad generalisation that didnt specify anyone as a personal attack but ok. meanwhile you think i havent played in while because of a low post count?
you did initially say you were going to stand by your opinion so 🤷‍♀️🙂

Im really not trying to attack you. Im sorry if it seems like it. I post in my spare time and some times I rush. Also you have not changed my view/position so Im just trying to elaborate on why I think what I think.

I have allot of respect for you and your views on Mesmer. I just dont agree that Mesmer is a strong core compared to guard, ranger, rev, necro, engi. I would say its similar to core thief for performance and potencial. That is, it can function and some times even do some cool stuff but its typically considered harder to play and has less options to just spam out damage and role over content. Mesmer's one saving grace is GS but honestly when you look at the kit and its lacking any block, etc I would say its again weak compared to the other weapon kits. Let's face it at lvl 20 its pretty much your base weapons that will determine how strong it feels + maybe the heal and what 1-2 skills help sustain or dps. On rev, for instance, Jalis removes 5 condi and heals as base heal plus every skill onthe bar will lower damage from 20-50% + do normal good utility stuff that a Mesmer might get on a skill. You argue that the Signet heal and its heal on clone makes up for all that, but I would say it lacks the condi removal and I dont get skills I can pair with it that will do damage/CC + reduce my incoming damage (they stack too btw till you run low and have to swap energy management is the key). On guard the block that also does damage on focus that pairs well with either mace (less dps) or sword is very solid at any level and Guard GS has amazing kit for a nice swap option. Ranger I would personally opt for longbow and swap to GS or vice verse. Either has plenty of cleave/burst + cc and they pair very well. It gives you a few ways to block and counter damage too all in the base weapon kits and it pretty mobile + range friendly. On mesmer I would opt for sword/sword GS. I feel like s/s lacks the gap closers/mobility the others get. It also feels weak for blocks cause that s2 evade is pretty meh the way it locks you in place and it also your only burst on the weapon set so you have to choose to evade or do damage unless you are face tanking which is bad on low lvl mesmer. Then GS is range but no block and the only CC is a giant wave knockback which is often problematic to use. Those are the kinda things that come to my mind when I think about and compare them.

 

Again, not trying to harsh on you at all. Just trying to say why I think what I think. I questioned if you still play cause you dont post much and I have never seen you in game before. Like ever.