Guardian changes preview Feb 3

[Ragnar.4257]

2 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Actually, it does take away 1/3 of the uptime for the lesser charges. If you want to keep the smaller CD, now your sustain can handle 3 charges of upkeep. After the revert, you can only afford 2 charges of upkeep or you burn the final and go on long CD. Not sure how that will affect most hFB, but it will restrict the quickness uptime of hybrid cFB like celebrands and dps qFB.

You know that charges don't recharge independently right? If you use all 3 charges at once, you don't regain 3 charges after 12s, you regain only one.

Your statement is only true in very very very short fights where the "upfront" frontloaded extra charges come into play.

Over a prolonged duration, you gain a charge every 12s regardless of new or old system. Nothing changes with up-time.

Basically you get a charge for "free" at the start of the fight, but thereafter it literally doesn't matter if it has 2 charges, 3 charges, or 300 charges, all that matters is the cooldown. This is true for any charge/ammo ability. You could double the number of charges, that would NOT double the up-time.

If you really want to get anal about it, the degree to which charges affect uptime is proportional to the recharge-rate divided by the total fight duration. So yes, in a fight that lasts less than 12s, the uptime is reduced by a third, but in a fight that lasts 120s, the uptime is only reduced by 7%. A fight that lasts 1200s, the difference is less than 1%.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Ragnar.4257

[Gaiawolf.8261]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Did you start playing after the mantras were changed in 2021?
Here's video refresher of the benchmarks done before they were changed:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Note the videos were before ritualist gear existed.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Potent_Haste/history
Potent haste is 2.5s base duration which is the same as the current iteration of Mantra of Potence

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Liberator's_Vow/history
Liberator's vow is unchanged and has been untouched.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stalwart_Speed/history
Stalwart speed has been untouched meaning if you run offhand shield you can get another trigger of 2s base duration with 7s ICD, with Unbroken Lines / Stand your Ground / "Advance" providing another potential trigger, this doesn't apply to Weighty Terms builds. Weighty Terms builds reduce ammo cooldown to 9.6s currently and it doesn't affect the recharge.

2 charges of Potent Haste is 5s total, with 40% boon duration (firebrand rune) that is 7 seconds and normally with 12 second ammo cooldown. If you use the third charge they are bring back it provides another 5 seconds of base quickness or 7 seconds extra. The cooldown if you use the third charge is going to be 25s (20s under alac) meaning if you use them in rapid succession it would be a downtime of ~6s total just using one mantra. Potent Haste is the main source of quickness especially if you preboon in fractals since it doesn't have a cooldown for quickness application.

The Liberator's Vow trait with 7s ICD provides 2s of quickness (2.8 with firebrand runes). You wouldn't spam this obviously unless under extreme pressure, cQB doesn't heal and with the tome changes if you have pages you would use tome of resolve to heal or use Unbroken Lines on any celestial hybrid build running honor traitline. In the case of running with an alacrity source that provides might you could run mace+shield and axe+torch (or the inverse setup of offhands) instead of running staff which provides two extra triggers for Stalwart Speed.

Then finally we have the possibility of either "Feel my Wrath" (3s quickness base duration which is ~4s with firebrand rune on 30s cooldown which is 24s with alac) or Mantra of Liberation for additional triggers if using Stalwart Speed (since the ammo cooldown is 30s it is unlikely you use it unless you need stability).

Firebrand was plenty strong before the changes. It will continue to be strong if you play it properly, you would have to mess up both mantras (potence and solace) to have a major quickness deficit. Plus losing quickness uptime is not the end of the world, every other spec has to deal with misplays (whether it is quickness herald, catalyst, scrapper, bladesworn/condi berserker, StM chrono, and to a lesser extent harbinger since it relies on elixir of anguish on 25s cooldown and not just shroud).

I've been playing since beta but that was with mesmer. I didn't start playing firebrand until a year ago. As I mentioned in the previous comment, I don't doubt a skilled player's ability to manage mantras, and it probably even gives them more options and dynamic play. I'm worried about the complexity of the class for the average player with the tome rework and having to track several ICDs, page regen, and page costs, plus mantra charges now. 

I'm also not so much worried about it in PvE. Yeah it might not be fun, which is another big concern, to stand there doing nothing while your mantras recharge. I'm mostly worried about it in competitive game modes. That was never fun trying to charge mantras on my mesmer while getting hit by CC / giving your opponent multiple seconds of relief. 

[Infusion.7149]

32 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I've been playing since beta but that was with mesmer. I didn't start playing firebrand until a year ago. As I mentioned in the previous comment, I don't doubt a skilled player's ability to manage mantras, and it probably even gives them more options and dynamic play. I'm worried about the complexity of the class for the average player with the tome rework and having to track several ICDs, page regen, and page costs, plus mantra charges now. 

I'm also not so much worried about it in PvE. Yeah it might not be fun, which is another big concern, to stand there doing nothing while your mantras recharge. I'm mostly worried about it in competitive game modes. That was never fun trying to charge mantras on my mesmer while getting hit by CC / giving your opponent multiple seconds of relief. 

Then you probably missed the sagebrand meta in PVP.

If sagebrand became a thing again it would be pretty broken , instant cast mantras with no counterplay due to not having the recast after the mantras are consumed would mean you are essentially not able to be interrupted. Firebrand already had improvement in terms of the tomes, the main reason you would run core guard is instant virtues.
 

The main competition as a support right now is tempest and that has 4s cast time overloads.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

3 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Then you probably missed the sagebrand meta in PVP.

If sagebrand became a thing again it would be pretty broken , instant cast mantras with no counterplay due to not having the recast after the mantras are consumed would mean you are essentially not able to be interrupted. Firebrand already had improvement in terms of the tomes, the main reason you would run core guard is instant virtues.
 

The main competition as a support right now is tempest and that has 4s cast time overloads.

Overloads actually do stuff during the channel tho, and you can trait for auto-stab on every overload. Sometimes I run 3-4 mantras on a FB build. I'll reserve final judgement until I play it, but I'm still concerned at spending 8+ seconds just recharging those 3-4 skills when they come off CD. That sounds like an awful lot of time during a combat just doing nothing except prepping for doing something later.  I do like the animation and voice flavor a lot. 

[Infusion.7149]

9 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Overloads actually do stuff during the channel tho, and you can trait for auto-stab on every overload. Sometimes I run 3-4 mantras on a FB build. I'll reserve final judgement until I play it, but I'm still concerned at spending 8+ seconds just recharging those 3-4 skills when they come off CD. That sounds like an awful lot of time during a combat just doing nothing except prepping for doing something later.  I do like the animation and voice flavor a lot. 

You lose a massive amount of the effects of overload if you are interrupted and they require people (enemies/allies) to be stationary or on a point for the resulting field which is more likely in PVP than WVW. For example, on Fire Overload if you are interrupted then you lose all the damage of the resulting field, the aura if using aurashare (i.e. heal if you run Eternal Bastion) as well as the burning and might stacks.

Unlike mesmer mantras which apply boons or effects at the end of preparing them, firebrand mantras are supposed to be cast essentially out of combat. If you run 3-4 mantras the typical ones at least in WVW are mantra of solace (aegis, negligible heal) which can be replaced by "Receive the light" in most cases, mantra of liberation (stab), and mantra of lore (condi clear if you are the sole support). I am unsure why you would need to use all the charges on those. If anything a revert to the original functionality would allow for WvW to be less spammy; you can mitigate the cast time with quickness as well without any additional traits whatsoever by using a tome.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Mending.7152]

Willbender is really neglected rn... I wish we would see it more in raids but as support, too

[Gaiawolf.8261]

15 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You lose a massive amount of the effects of overload if you are interrupted and they require people (enemies/allies) to be stationary or on a point for the resulting field which is more likely in PVP than WVW. For example, on Fire Overload if you are interrupted then you lose all the damage of the resulting field, the aura if using aurashare (i.e. heal if you run Eternal Bastion) as well as the burning and might stacks.

Unlike mesmer mantras which apply boons or effects at the end of preparing them, firebrand mantras are supposed to be cast essentially out of combat. If you run 3-4 mantras the typical ones at least in WVW are mantra of solace (aegis, negligible heal) which can be replaced by "Receive the light" in most cases, mantra of liberation (stab), and mantra of lore (condi clear if you are the sole support). I am unsure why you would need to use all the charges on those. If anything a revert to the original functionality would allow for WvW to be less spammy; you can mitigate the cast time with quickness as well without any additional traits whatsoever by using a tome.

If we're talking about replacing mantras with other skills or burning pages to cover for them because of the charge time, that's already a loss. 

I never played tempest in wvw. I can't even imagine it. Maybe for zergs where others can cover you, but certainly not roaming/small groups. No thank you. 

[Infusion.7149]

1 minute ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

If we're talking about replacing mantras with other skills or burning pages to cover for them because of the charge time, that's already a loss. 

I never played tempest in wvw. I can't even imagine it. Maybe for zergs where others can cover you, but certainly not roaming/small groups. No thank you. 

You run "Receive the Light" because it actually heals without regard for being boon ripped. Mantra of Solace heal is a few hundred in competitive modes right now unless it is completely reverted on Feb 14 to an even earlier version. The quickness from firebrand traitline is applied on tome entry not on page use and if mantras are on cooldown you would be using tomes anyhow for condi clear and extra stab. Loremaster is run on healbrand in WVW so there is nearly no penalty for going into Tome of Resolve.

There's only a handful of other supports being run right now outside of PVE, heal scrapper if people still use it in largescale (but not in PVP due to gearing differences), heal druid in squads that people don't use stealth heavily (or decap druid in PVP), herald/vindicator. Support spellbreaker (with offhand warhorn) has been hit a lot with the reduction in ammo on "Shake it Off". Scourge is essentially power in WVW and in PVP has greatly fell out of favor.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

8 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You run "Receive the Light" because it actually heals without regard for being boon ripped. Mantra of Solace heal is a few hundred in competitive modes right now unless it is completely reverted on Feb 14 to an even earlier version. The quickness from firebrand traitline is applied on tome entry not on page use and if mantras are on cooldown you would be using tomes anyhow for condi clear and extra stab. Loremaster is run on healbrand in WVW so there is nearly no penalty for going into Tome of Resolve.

There's only a handful of other supports being run right now outside of PVE, heal scrapper if people still use it in largescale (but not in PVP due to gearing differences), heal druid in squads that people don't use stealth heavily (or decap druid in PVP), herald/vindicator. Support spellbreaker (with offhand warhorn) has been hit a lot with the reduction in ammo on "Shake it Off". Scourge is essentially power in WVW and in PVP has greatly fell out of favor.

I'll have to feel it out it in play, but I definitely prefer Mantra of Solice or Litany of Wrath over Receive the Light. My concern stems from testimonies of others about how charge times felt like dead time during a fight, compounded by how many mantras are used (and I prefer to use a few as I said), coupled with my memories of using them as a mesmer. 

Mostly in small group/roaming as I said, but also in PvE against tough mobs or when under pressure. I have zero issues with zergs in wvw. I don't think this change will hamper that playstyle much at all. 

[otto.5684]

14 hours ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

Unscathed Contender: Reduced strike damage increase while under the effects of aegis from 20% to 7%. This trait now grants an additional 7% strike damage increase while you are above 90% health.

It's been a couple days and i'm trying to wrap my head around this change.... because it's a HUGE damage reduction to ALL Guard builds, with Willbender and Dragonhunter effected the most.

I can understand why they would want to remove damage from Virtues completely considering half the time you can't distinguish which treeline between Zeal and Virtues does more damage but... why not relocate that damage loss from Virtues into Zeal instead? Am I the only one who thinks Zeal could use some love especially when the damage nerf of Unscathed Contender effects all builds?

I dunno if I would call it a nerf. I would take a 7% constant damage buff over 20% damage buff that has very limited uptime, and almost none in pvp.

 

However, yes, Zeal line does need som love. 

[otto.5684]

I do not think 10% buff to GS AA and symbols will put the damage where it needs to be. and considering that DH is parsing like 34K, it needs way more than that. This marks the 3rd patch that Anet did a “small buff” to fix damage output. Do they not know what is power dps rotation or do they not know how to do math?

 

If the objective of FB changes is to make it viable in spvp, it won’t. 
 

Not sure about Unscathed Contender. I really wish we can get rid of aegis all together. 
 

The only really good change this patch is the WB virtues. This is a really solid change.
 

At best, these changes will make power build parse around 36k. Probably less. The changes to DH and FB are not going to make them spvp viable. No changes to LB. WB desperately needs work/rework so none condi builds are not dead in pve. This is really mediocre. Why is fixing FB and power builds is 12 month exercise? Like seriously. Can guardian get a fraction of the dev time other classes got over the last few month. And please have someone who actually understands the class so we have changes that are sufficient to fix something instead of spending 4-6 patches and still missing the boat.

Edited February 6, 2023 by otto.5684

[otto.5684]

3 hours ago, Mending.7152 said:

Willbender is really neglected rn... I wish we would see it more in raids but as support, too

Yes, for how many issues it has, the fact that Anet spent 9 month dicking around with FB, while mostly ignoring everything else, is beyond my understanding.

[MagicBot.1570]

6 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

I do not think 10% buff to GS AA and symbols will put the damage where it needs to be. and considering that DH is parsing like 34K, it needs way more than that. This marks the 3rd patch that Anet did a “small buff” to fix damage output. Do they not know what is power dps rotation or do they not know how to do math?

 

If the objective of FB changes is to make it viable in spvp, it won’t. 
 

Not sure about Unscathed Contender. I really wish we can get rid of aegis all together. 
 

The only really good change this patch is the WB virtues. This is a really solid change.
 

At best, these changes will make power build parse around 36k. Probably less. The changes to DH and FB are not going to make them spvp viable. No changes to LB. WB desperately needs work/rework so none condi builds are not dead in pve. This is really mediocre. Why is fixing FB and power builds is 12 month exercise? Like seriously. Can guardian get a fraction of the dev time other classes got over the last few month. And please have someone who actually understands the class so we have changes that are sufficient to fix something instead of spending 4-6 patches and still missing the boat.

You're right, it's just mind boggling. I really hope that we see Willbender changes next patch, even this patch. They still have a bit of time before it goes live.

[ThunderX.6591]

16 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

I dunno if I would call it a nerf. I would take a 7% constant damage buff over 20% damage buff that has very limited uptime, and almost none in pvp.

 

However, yes, Zeal line does need som love. 

The point is....... the extra 7% with 90% health is with Aegis up or without it? (so always active if you have 90%+ health?) that is the real point in the effect of the trait.

None of you noticed the WB "no cancelling virtue effect" in the note?

I think that is a big change for the class, at least on paper, because, obviously, the real test is in the game; i see many times big and incredible good change on paper became little or even bad one respect the old when implemented and tested in the game.

[Vidit.7108]

On 2/4/2023 at 11:42 PM, Ragnar.4257 said:

Is it really too much to ask players to think about whether or not to use a skill at the right moment? Or is being unable to simply roll your face across the keyboard using everything off cooldown now counting as "not user friendly" ?

I really despair seeing people push back against more strategic depth and player choice.

Do you really have so little self-control or decision-making capability that having the option to expend the final charge for a more powerful effect is too much to handle?

I don't appreciate how you are characterizing me or what I said.

I healbrand in PUGs and I already make tons of strategic choices. I'm already paying attention to both what the boss and players are doing. I'm already deciding which heals to use at which moment. Firebrand and Guardian are already gifted with a massive amount of skill and trait options that the envy of other healers. I already need to decide when to save heal skills or use heal skills when one player makes a mistake. I don't generally want to have to make even more decisions or have to look at my hotbars to remind myself if I'm on the last charge or not. 

One page at the end of a mantra is absolutely worthless to me as a healbrand, I can already tell with the way the game plays it won't make any meaningful difference. In the trade-off calculation of using the final charge or not, it was always a worse choice to use the final charge before. They've shown no meaningful changes to the final charge that in my mind are worth losing the current third charge of every support mantra. 

I remember the old mantra days, I played hundreds of fractal dailies with it. Mistakes would happen often, especially because the ammo recharge count would display 3 charges when there was really 1 charge left (and it still does this sometimes). I don't enjoy that aspect of the gameplay or find it challenging, my response to it being removed was "one less annoying thing that goes wrong"

[Kal Durak.2830]

4 hours ago, Vidit.7108 said:

One page at the end of a mantra is absolutely worthless to me as a healbrand, I can already tell with the way the game plays it won't make any meaningful difference. In the trade-off calculation of using the final charge or not, it was always a worse choice to use the final charge before. They've shown no meaningful changes to the final charge that in my mind are worth losing the current third charge of every support mantra. 

It's like the Dev has decided his game play style is what everyone should use and doesn't have a clue on how many of us play the game.   I hardly play my FB anymore. 

[otto.5684]

10 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

The point is....... the extra 7% with 90% health is with Aegis up or without it? (so always active if you have 90%+ health?) that is the real point in the effect of the trait.

None of you noticed the WB "no cancelling virtue effect" in the note?

I think that is a big change for the class, at least on paper, because, obviously, the real test is in the game; i see many times big and incredible good change on paper became little or even bad one respect the old when implemented and tested in the game.

I think it is 7% constant while above 90% hp. The way Anet wrote is not clear, but if they nerfed it to 14% from 20% then further to  7% while below 90%, that would be stupid. Really really stupid.

 

The WB change is great. However, it is a QoL and sustain buff. It is great, but it does not have any impact on power dps viability or support viability in pve. It should be really good in pvp. 

[Sagedurk.7358]

15 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

The point is....... the extra 7% with 90% health is with Aegis up or without it? (so always active if you have 90%+ health?) that is the real point in the effect of the trait.

None of you noticed the WB "no cancelling virtue effect" in the note?

I think that is a big change for the class, at least on paper, because, obviously, the real test is in the game; i see many times big and incredible good change on paper became little or even bad one respect the old when implemented and tested in the game.

The Willbender virtue change doesn't change the fact that we're still shoehorned into 2 GM traits just to provide alac on hit, not to mention other jank regarding willy traits. 

I play willy because I find it fun, if I wanted high damage, I would play virt or mech. I raided with power willy back in the june patch when my personal bench was 27k/s, roughly 4k/s under what I benched the patch before that.

 

The change will do little for dps willy in PvE, and alac willy has glaring pain points from a build perspective that aren't tied to damage. 2 GM trait requirements to give alac, being locked into virtue traitline, holy reckoning not being sharable, Absolute Resolve not working properly with Phoenix Protocol. And on top of it all, we have to deal damage to provide alac

 

I doubt the virtue override fix will be enough, but it is a welcome change, since it can improve the fun factor of willy. Alac willy has been halfbaked and unpolished since EoD release, and I want it fixed, not bandaided

[MagicBot.1570]

18 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

The point is....... the extra 7% with 90% health is with Aegis up or without it? (so always active if you have 90%+ health?) that is the real point in the effect of the trait.

None of you noticed the WB "no cancelling virtue effect" in the note?

I think that is a big change for the class, at least on paper, because, obviously, the real test is in the game; i see many times big and incredible good change on paper became little or even bad one respect the old when implemented and tested in the game.

The problem with the Willbender change that's going live is it's a VERY short-sighted change with quite clearly not a lot of thought put into it. It's just a band-aid

 

It has to do with the trait Restorative Virtues. It's unclear right now just how powerful its synergy with multiple active virtues will be.

And we don't want it to be too OP, because it fixes none of the others issues that the Willbender is facing. If this change goes live, then we might deal with a really powerful buff there if they didn't take the trait into account, but offhand Sword will still be bad, and sonwill the utilities. It's also a change that benefits condi Willbender much more than power, so we might see some insane condi Wb DPS next patch, which is not something we want either

Edited February 7, 2023 by MagicBot.1570

[Solstice.5790]

On 2/5/2023 at 8:42 AM, Ragnar.4257 said:

Is it really too much to ask players to think about whether or not to use a skill at the right moment? Or is being unable to simply roll your face across the keyboard using everything off cooldown now counting as "not user friendly" ?

I really despair seeing people push back against more strategic depth and player choice.

Do you really have so little self-control or decision-making capability that having the option to expend the final charge for a more powerful effect is too much to handle?

This change literally doesn't take anything away from you, it only adds an option that you didn't have before. At the moment you only have option-A (use a charge every 12s), post-change you will still have option-A but also have option-B (final-charge for big effect and re-cast). Is having 2 things to choose between really going to blow your minds?

It's about as much to ask players to understand that some are worried about not being able to use a skill at the right moment. Because it is locked behind a 3 second animation that will either trigger enemies' "on interrupt" effects or simply get prolonged by a bunch of unfavorable mist instabilities (especially in Chaos, Mai Trin, Siren's Reef, Twilight Oasis...)
Other opinions are available, not everyone knows or likes the old mantra system - Is having 2 options really going to blow your mind?

[Song of Eternity.8613]

The Right Hand Strength change is another big blow to FBs

[Ragnar.4257]

On 2/10/2023 at 11:10 AM, Solstice.5790 said:

It's about as much to ask players to understand that some are worried about not being able to use a skill at the right moment. Because it is locked behind a 3 second animation that will either trigger enemies' "on interrupt" effects or simply get prolonged by a bunch of unfavorable mist instabilities (especially in Chaos, Mai Trin, Siren's Reef, Twilight Oasis...)
Other opinions are available, not everyone knows or likes the old mantra system - Is having 2 options really going to blow your mind?

Imagine equating "having a cast time" with "not being able to use a skill".

See, this is how braindead combat has become.

You could definitely argue that the 2.75s should get trimmed down to 1.5s or something, but the idea that you should never have to engage with cast-times, and never have to engage with opportunity-cost, is risible.

EVERY skill is "not available" if you wasted it earlier and it is now on cooldown, or it has a long cast-time and you didn't prepare properly. Why should mantras be an exception to this?

Edited February 13, 2023 by Ragnar.4257

[Sagedurk.7358]

On 2/10/2023 at 2:37 PM, Song of Eternity.8613 said:

The Right Hand Strength change is another big blow to FBs

How? Last time I checked, FBs don't use sword. And they aren't power based. 

So how would the change affect FB?

Especially when it doesn't really affect power guard. They remove the CD reduction from the trait and decrease it on the weapon for baseline.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

5 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Imagine equating "having a cast time" with "not being able to use a skill".

See, this is how braindead combat has become.

You could definitely argue that the 2.75s should get trimmed down to 1.5s or something, but the idea that you should never have to engage with cast-times, and never have to engage with opportunity-cost, is risible.

EVERY skill is "not available" if you wasted it earlier and it is now on cooldown, or it has a long cast-time and you didn't prepare properly. Why should mantras be an exception to this?

I would have no problem with a cast time 1.5 seconds or lower, especially with a class that has heavy access to quickness. I don't think many people here would. Obviously when we talk about mantra charging sucking so hard it has to do with the unreasonable cast time. Many skills have reasonable cast times, and no one here is complaining about them. The comment you quoted even references The length as being the problem, so.... 🤷

[Saiyan.1704]

On 2/7/2023 at 6:31 AM, MagicBot.1570 said:

The problem with the Willbender change that's going live is it's a VERY short-sighted change with quite clearly not a lot of thought put into it. It's just a band-aid

 

It has to do with the trait Restorative Virtues. It's unclear right now just how powerful its synergy with multiple active virtues will be.

Virtue overlaping has been a huge headache for every WB build and in every gamemode to the point that this change was unavoidable. I am also perfectly fine with Restorative Virtues finally being good.