[Suggestion] Improvements to how "Revealed" is applied

[shinvold.3618]

 

As a Deadeye main, I took a look at the opinions of several users about the Shadow Meld changes.

 

• Thieves users usually take the position of 'Currently, Revealed is too harsh' and 'We have no chance of survival except for stealth'.
• Non-thief players say 'Revealed removal doesn't make sense as a counter to counter play'.

 

This disagreement is primarily due to the fact that Stealth itself has an extremely essential effect on both offense and defense for thief. A thief without stealth has weak means of attack and no means of defense.

 

Here, I would like to propose an improvement to the mechanism by which Revealed is applied, in a way that is somewhat convincing to both parties.

 

 

Skills that cause Revealed apply Revealed even if the opponent is not stealthed. These skills often have a large range or are instant casts, making them the kind of debuff that is virtually impossible to evade.

 

If Revealed is a effect to counter play against stealth, it should have no effect on enemies who are not in stealth.

It wouldn't make sense if Stun Break would block future CC for a few seconds. Just as the effect of Stun Break is applied only to the state of CC, isn't it normal that the counter play against stealth itself should be used appropriately at the timing of the opponent's stealth in order to see the effect?

 

In other words, the skill that triggers Revealed needs to be changed so that it can only be applied to only 'stealth' state.

 

At this time, if the Revealed skill is a targeting skill that can only be used on non-stealth enemies, I would like to apply the 'Detected!' effect(like Sentry or Tower's Marked ) to enemies instead of Revealed.

 

For example, in the case of "Sic'Em!", the 'Detected!' effect is applied to the targeted enemy. And if the target go in stealth, it will be Revealed after 1-2 seconds.

 

I think these changes will give some options to classes like thieves who absolutely need stealth, while still counterplaying stealth. A thief must be aware of when the opponent uses a skill that triggers Revealed, and adjust whether or not to go into stealth. Conversely, classes that use Revealed will be able to neutralize the thief only if they use their skills at the right timing.

 

Counter play against stealth should be the solution(=Revealed) to the problem(=Stealth). However, the current Revealed skill application method is to 'block' both before and after the problem itself occurs. This is not fair.

Edited February 5, 2023 by shinvold.3618

[Fueki.4753]

How do you plan to apply revealed to a stealthed enemy? pot-shotting the area and hope to hit the enemy, most likely wasting the reveal? That sounds really stupid.

Applying reveal to non-stealthed enemies is a pre-emptive counter and needs to stay that way.

Unless stealth is massively nerfed, both mechanically and in uptime, the only change to reveal should be to have significantly more skills that can pre-emptively apply reveal.

[wolfer.7945]

Detected could be ok.  But it would need like a 15 second window.  With applying 5 seconds of Revealed if it's triggered.

 

But if you have to hit a stealth target with reveal, then that revile should be like 15-20 seconds long.  And breaking your own stealth should still be 3 seconds. 

[Chips.7968]

There's a much simpler idea; stop relying entirely on stealth. Revealed is your crux, the answer isn't "well now I've lost my counter to revealed the game must be changed to help me out"

So to explain what I mean, you see the problem being "I'm revealed!!!", whereas I see the problem isn't that you're revealed. The problem is you (are?) taking damage while revealed, right? You aren't able to mitigate damage when revealed. 

So how can you mitigate damage while revealed? Prior solution "I can remove revealed and escape to stealth!"

Stealth isn't the only option available to thief in order to avoid damage; mobility, evasion, blocks, interrupts etc. All are still available.

The tools to solve the problem already exist, time to use them rather than rely upon stealth as the be all and end all. You *may* need to try alternative utilities to provide damage mitigation via range, projectile blocks, blinds - rather than stealth. You *may* need to change traits, or even a weapon set, to provide alternative options. You may need to be more careful in selecting locations for a fight.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Chips.7968

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

On 2/5/2023 at 6:08 AM, shinvold.3618 said:

 

As a Deadeye main, I took a look at the opinions of several users about the Shadow Meld changes.

 

• Thieves users usually take the position of 'Currently, Revealed is too harsh' and 'We have no chance of survival except for stealth'.
• Non-thief players say 'Revealed removal doesn't make sense as a counter to counter play'.

 

This disagreement is primarily due to the fact that Stealth itself has an extremely essential effect on both offense and defense for thief. A thief without stealth has weak means of attack and no means of defense.

 

Here, I would like to propose an improvement to the mechanism by which Revealed is applied, in a way that is somewhat convincing to both parties.

 

 

Skills that cause Revealed apply Revealed even if the opponent is not stealthed. These skills often have a large range or are instant casts, making them the kind of debuff that is virtually impossible to evade.

 

If Revealed is a effect to counter play against stealth, it should have no effect on enemies who are not in stealth.

It wouldn't make sense if Stun Break would block future CC for a few seconds. Just as the effect of Stun Break is applied only to the state of CC, isn't it normal that the counter play against stealth itself should be used appropriately at the timing of the opponent's stealth in order to see the effect?

 

In other words, the skill that triggers Revealed needs to be changed so that it can only be applied to only 'stealth' state.

 

At this time, if the Revealed skill is a targeting skill that can only be used on non-stealth enemies, I would like to apply the 'Detected!' effect(like Sentry or Tower's Marked ) to enemies instead of Revealed.

 

For example, in the case of "Sic'Em!", the 'Detected!' effect is applied to the targeted enemy. And if the target go in stealth, it will be Revealed after 1-2 seconds.

 

I think these changes will give some options to classes like thieves who absolutely need stealth, while still counterplaying stealth. A thief must be aware of when the opponent uses a skill that triggers Revealed, and adjust whether or not to go into stealth. Conversely, classes that use Revealed will be able to neutralize the thief only if they use their skills at the right timing.

 

Counter play against stealth should be the solution(=Revealed) to the problem(=Stealth). However, the current Revealed skill application method is to 'block' both before and after the problem itself occurs. This is not fair.

I think this is a interesting idea. The how though is a little more tricky though.

It's my opinion that revealed should be looked at as a 'whole' instead of changing how shadow meld works right now. Instead of just changing shadow meld, revealed itself should be looked at across all game modes.

Here's a new idea that I have been thinking about. I know in a older game I played it had something different. It had 'detection' was a self buff which gave vision to make invisible stealth users slightly visible. What if revealed skills were 2 a fold reactive version of that. There would be a self 'detection' buff and a reactive 'revealed' skill on the same skill slot. It could replace the current 'revealed' skills.

Detection: self buff (4-6s) on activate with short melee range (x), effect causes a small field around the user who casts it to see stealth users cloudy outline within a short range of (x). To make the stealth user revealed and directly targetable the skill would need to be reactivated on said target.

Revealed: reactive skill (you reactivate the detection skill once to end detection on a target). If the skill isn't dodged you reveal your target for 2-3s.

This would make revealed skills so much more reactive like the OP mentioned.

PS: It is late. My idea might be a bad one. I just thought of a few reasons why (deadeyes vs rangers), but still I wanted to state it haha. I will think on this more.

Edited February 9, 2023 by ZeroTheRuler.7415

[Sobx.1758]

On 2/7/2023 at 11:46 AM, Chips.7968 said:

There's a much simpler idea; stop relying entirely on stealth. Revealed is your crux, the answer isn't "well now I've lost my counter to revealed the game must be changed to help me out"

So to explain what I mean, you see the problem being "I'm revealed!!!", whereas I see the problem isn't that you're revealed. The problem is you (are?) taking damage while revealed, right? You aren't able to mitigate damage when revealed. 

So how can you mitigate damage while revealed? Prior solution "I can remove revealed and escape to stealth!"

Stealth isn't the only option available to thief in order to avoid damage; mobility, evasion, blocks, interrupts etc. All are still available.

The tools to solve the problem already exist, time to use them rather than rely upon stealth as the be all and end all. You *may* need to try alternative utilities to provide damage mitigation via range, projectile blocks, blinds - rather than stealth. You *may* need to change traits, or even a weapon set, to provide alternative options. You may need to be more careful in selecting locations for a fight.

psst, you're missing the part where there's an espec made around ability to use stealth attacks. So it's not about "but no stealth = no easy defence and I don't want to use other defensive means :(" as you're trying to paint it, it's about being locked out of the mechanic (stealth attacks) the espec is built around. Now take that same revealed effect and make it turn off each class' profession/espec mechanics, be it "fx" keys, instantly unsummoning mechs, throwing necros out of shrouds or anything else and come back to say those people should just... use other defensive means or something.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

An idea to aid this topic is Put max count to 4s from any source and max stack able to apply to yourself to 4s without being able to stack higher or refresh.

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Now take that same revealed effect and make it turn off each class' profession/espec mechanics, be it "fx" keys, instantly unsummoning mechs, throwing necros out of shrouds or anything else and come back to say those people should just... use other defensive means or something.

Stealth is objectively not a profession/specialization mechanic. It's a core gameplay mechanic, even if Deadeye is designed around abusing it.

Seeing that Deadeye is the foremost problem in this case, Deadeye should be changed to be less interactive/reliant on Stealth.

Reveal, however should not be changed, unless Arenanet decides to massively buff it to more effectively counter the over-abundance of Stealth in sPvP.

Something needs to be done to make Stealth less worthwhile. It has been a plague in sPvP since the launch of the game. And while removing the Reveal-remove is not much, it's at least a bit of something.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

4 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Stealth is objectively not a profession/specialization mechanic. It's a core gameplay mechanic, even if Deadeye is designed around abusing it.

Seeing that Deadeye is the foremost problem in this case, Deadeye should be changed to be less interactive/reliant on Stealth.

Reveal, however should not be changed, unless Arenanet decides to massively buff it to more effectively counter the over-abundance of Stealth in sPvP.

Something needs to be done to make Stealth less worthwhile. It has been a plague in sPvP since the launch of the game. And while removing the Reveal-remove is not much, it's at least a bit of something.

Tbh id rather have the thief unable ti be targeted by skills REQUIRING A TARGET  but a very slight silhouette in competitive with 50% damage reduction and just call it shadow form from guild wars 1.  Every nerf regarding stealth screams "we need shadow form"

[Sobx.1758]

21 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Stealth is objectively not a profession/specialization mechanic. It's a core gameplay mechanic, even if Deadeye is designed around abusing it.

You've cut fragment of my post, seemingly ignoring what I actually wrote. Because I didn't really write "stealth is a profession/specialization mechanic". What I said, it was this:

(...)it's about being locked out of the mechanic (stealth attacks) the espec is built around.

 

Do you think it's far-fetched or false to say DE is made around stealth attacks in mind? If no then you should also understand why I bring up profession/espec specific mechanics those other professions/especs are built around. Now with that in mind, how would you feel about "revealed" effect not hiding the user anymore but also not locking mechanics like stealth attacks while under its effects? Fair? Unfair? Stealth attacks profession mechanic or not?

Edited February 9, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[shinvold.3618]

On 2023. 2. 7. at 오후 7시 46분, Chips.7968 said:

훨씬 더 간단한 아이디어가 있습니다. 스텔스에 전적으로 의존하지 마십시오. 밝혀진 것은 당신의 요점입니다. 대답은 "이제 내 카운터를 잃어버렸기 때문에 게임을 변경해야 나를 도울 수 있습니다 " 가 아닙니다.

무슨 뜻인지 설명하자면 "내가 드러났어!!!"라는 문제가 있는 반면, 나는 문제가 당신이 드러났다는 것이 아니라는 것을 알 수 있습니다. 문제는 노출된 상태에서 피해 를 입는(?) 거 겠죠? 노출되면 손상을 완화할 수 없습니다. 

그렇다면 공개된 상태에서 어떻게 피해를 완화할 수 있을까요? 사전 솔루션 "나는 노출을 제거하고 스텔스로 탈출할 수 있습니다!"

은신은 피해를 피하기 위해 도둑이 사용할 수 있는 유일한 옵션이 아닙니다. 이동성, 회피, 블록, 인터럽트 등 모두 여전히 사용 가능합니다.

문제를 해결하기 위한 도구는 이미 존재하며, 스텔스에 의존하기보다는 도구를 사용할 시간입니다. 스텔스가 아닌 범위, 발사체 차단, 블라인드를 통해 피해 완화를 제공하기 위해 대체 유틸리티를 시도해야 *할 수 있습니다*. 대체 옵션을 제공하기 위해 특성 또는 무기 세트를 변경해야 *할 수 있습니다*. 전투 장소를 선택할 때 더 신중해야 할 수도 있습니다.

 

 

As I said, if a thief has no stealth, his attacks are very weak, and his defenses are very weak. It's not a matter of play style. This is the limit of the thief class.

Aside from Daggerstorm, do thieves have as strong defense skills as any other class? Block you said? doesn't exist. There is only Projectile Block. Naturally, there are no Aegis, Distortion, or Invincibility skills.

Mobility? There are some elites with greater mobility than thief.

All classes have evasion, and it has nothing to do with the topic. Interrupts aren't technically a defense, so they're not even worth mentioning.

Above all else, if ANET thinks stealth is excessive, they should pay back the increased cost of the initiative they've been on. Even if other classes have cooldowns, they can use 2-5 weapon skills (up to a total of 8 weapon skills with cooldowns including swaps) at least once.

Thief? Without stealth attacks, regardless of weapon swap, thieves can only use few skills inwvw and pvp cause initiative limit. That's why it's really only allowed to play stealth, regain initiative, take advantage of the opportunity to burst, and then stealth again.

Consider why most thieves use the Trickery & SA trait. In the end, Anet's sustained increase in Initiative usage is a reality that has left the thief with no choice but to focus on stealth.

You are right. Stealth isn't the only option for reducing damage, of course. But don't deny that stealth has practically the majority of thieves' stakes at this point.

Edited February 9, 2023 by shinvold.3618

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

53 minutes ago, shinvold.3618 said:

As I said, if a thief has no stealth, his attacks are very weak, and his defenses are very weak. It's not a matter of play style. This is the limit of the thief class.

Aside from Daggerstorm, do thieves have as strong defense skills as any other class? Block you said? doesn't exist. There is only Projectile Block. Naturally, there are no Aegis, Distortion, or Invincibility skills.

Mobility? There are some elites with greater mobility than thief.

All classes have evasion, and it has nothing to do with the topic. Interrupts aren't technically a defense, so they're not even worth mentioning.

Above all else, if ANET thinks stealth is excessive, they should pay back the increased cost of the initiative they've been on. Even if other classes have cooldowns, they can use 2-5 weapon skills (up to a total of 8 weapon skills with cooldowns including swaps) at least once.

Thief? Without stealth attacks, regardless of weapon swap, thieves can only use few skills inwvw and pvp cause initiative limit. That's why it's really only allowed to play stealth, regain initiative, take advantage of the opportunity to burst, and then stealth again.

Consider why most thieves use the Trickery & SA trait. In the end, Anet's sustained increase in Initiative usage is a reality that has left the thief with no choice but to focus on stealth.

You are right. Stealth isn't the only option for reducing damage, of course. But don't deny that stealth has practically the majority of thieves' stakes at this point.

Actually theres 1 block utility on daredevil, prjectile blocks on seal area, aegis stolen, protection when taking m7 on deadeye and stealing from guardians...i can make a list. In the end though it isnt enough

[Dadnir.5038]

I wouldn't say the issue is revealed, it's the the way stealth is implemented in GW2 which is the true issue.

That said, I'd like to say that I disagree with the statement that "Stealth is an extremly essential effect for defense". It is true that many thiefs rely heavily on stealth for their survivability but it's far from being the only way thief have to defend himself.

[Kodama.6453]

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

psst, you're missing the part where there's an espec made around ability to use stealth attacks. So it's not about "but no stealth = no easy defence and I don't want to use other defensive means :(" as you're trying to paint it, it's about being locked out of the mechanic (stealth attacks) the espec is built around. Now take that same revealed effect and make it turn off each class' profession/espec mechanics, be it "fx" keys, instantly unsummoning mechs, throwing necros out of shrouds or anything else and come back to say those people should just... use other defensive means or something.

It's not like other players (or PvE npcs) are spamming revealed onto you. Most classes, if at all, have access to just 1 single skill that causes revealed, with the duration most commonly being between 5-6 seconds.

Some of these skills can get dodged and these you can't.... deadeye still has plenty access to mobility, you can just kite the enemy for the duration of the revealed status and waiting it out. You don't lose malice while doing that, so the usage of the deadeye mechanic is just postponed and not completely prohibited.

I think you are making a way bigger deal out of this than it is. I dislike the change mostly because Shadow Meld just becomes a really weak skill if it just applies stealth, so I would like to see them add something of buff it in a different way up again. But the removal of the revealed removal is not that big of an issue for me.

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You've cut fragment of my post, seemingly ignoring what I actually wrote. Because I didn't really write "stealth is a profession/specialization mechanic". What I said, it was this:

(...)it's about being locked out of the mechanic (stealth attacks) the espec is built around.

 

Do you think it's far-fetched or false to say DE is made around stealth attacks in mind? If no then you should also understand why I bring up profession/espec specific mechanics those other professions/especs are built around. Now with that in mind, how would you feel about "revealed" effect not hiding the user anymore but also not locking mechanics like stealth attacks while under its effects? Fair? Unfair? Stealth attacks profession mechanic or not?

That I wrote that Deadeye is designed around abusing Stealth should give you enough insight to your first question there.

Reveal is fine the way it is. It's rare and short and Thieves not being able to attack from absolute invisibility for a few seconds is fine. Thieves have tools to run away, when they occasionally get revealed.

Before Deadeyes complain about fairness, they should look at their over-abundance of Stealth, Teleports and their long range first. A large chunk of their toolkit just STINKS of unfairness to me.

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Sobx.1758]

36 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It's not like other players (or PvE npcs) are spamming revealed onto you. Most classes, if at all, have access to just 1 single skill that causes revealed, with the duration most commonly being between 5-6 seconds.

Some of these skills can get dodged and these you can't.... deadeye still has plenty access to mobility, you can just kite the enemy for the duration of the revealed status and waiting it out. You don't lose malice while doing that, so the usage of the deadeye mechanic is just postponed and not completely prohibited.

I think you are making a way bigger deal out of this than it is. I dislike the change mostly because Shadow Meld just becomes a really weak skill if it just applies stealth, so I would like to see them add something of buff it in a different way up again. But the removal of the revealed removal is not that big of an issue for me.

It doesn't matter whether or not "most players" build for it or not, it matters that some easly can, that it can be extremely easy to swap into whenever needed before starting combat and finally that there are whole areas applying that effect to the player. What kind of excuse is this that "majority don't spam it"? If you think I'm somehow making a bigger deal out of it(?) than it is, maybe you can respond to my post you've just quoted instead of going with that weird straw?

If engie, warrior, necro or anyone else got locked out of the mechanics they're built around, they also would be k because they wouldn't lose much while in combat, all of them "would be just postponed", right? And "it wouldn't matter that much because that effect wouldn't be on them all the time, people don't build on it". So you're fine with locking those too while under the same skill effect?

Edited February 9, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

28 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

That I wrote that Deadeye is designed around abusing Stealth should give you enough insight to your first question there.

Cool, that's one short question out of the way which just says you agree it's made around it so you agree with what I said at that part. What about literally the whole rest of the post?

28 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Despite that, reveal is fine the way it is. It's rare and short and Thieves have tools to run away, when they occasionally get revealed.

Solid dodge.

Do you agree or disagree that the espec is built around stealth attacks? Do you understand that they get locked out of that mechanic (again: not exactly about "stealth", but about "stealth attacks") or is there still something unclear about it here?

If you think this is fine because it's short then you're also fine with being locked out of profession/class mechanics for 6-8 seconds because it's rare and short, right? 😄

28 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Before Deadeyes complain about fairness, they should look at their over-abundance of Stealth, Teleports and their long range first. A large chunk of their toolkit just STINKS of unfairness to me.

What is this strawman? Do you see me somehow wanting stealth to be spammed left and right? Maybe really try to understand what you're quoting and responding to it instead of dodging and repeatedly pretending I said something I didn't? (first it was that I somehow said "stealth is profession mechanic", when I didn't and now... that what I wrote is in any way relevant to "overabundance of whatever mechanic you want to start listing here")

You two really try to desparately dodge what I write/ask, don't you? When both of you avoid admitting you would in no way be ok with being locked out of mechanics for the duration of the exact same reveal skills and yet both of you opt out to go with the evasive response of "people don't build for it and it's short". That's just... telling 🤷‍♂️ 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Kodama.6453]

37 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If engie, warrior, necro or anyone else got locked out of the mechanics they're built around, they also would be k because they wouldn't lose much while in combat, all of them "would be just postponed", right? And "it wouldn't matter that much because that effect wouldn't be on them all the time, people don't build on it". So you're fine with locking those too while under the same skill effect?

There are many such interactions.

Basically any form of hard CC can lock the ranger out of their class mechanic, which is the pet. If the pet is stunlocked, it can't use it's skills, rendering it useless. And that is way more frequent than revealed applied from other players. In competitive game modes, the same applies to mechanist. CC the mech and it's can't use it's skills, rendering it useless and you are locked out of using it.

Necromancer can get locked out of their death shroud, moa signet is a thing that not only disables your entire build while you are moa'd, but it also ends all transformations you were in (which includes death shroud) and puts them on cd. The cd for death shroud is 10 seconds, so you will be locked out of your class mechanic for that long if you get moa'd.

Bladesworn: CC them during their charging of the dragon trigger and they get locked out of it until it comes off cooldown (8 seconds).

We can go on and on with that. Other classes can also get locked out of their mechanics, this is not a unique situation for deadeye. That the lockout of the mechanic for deadeye is revealed is actually beneficial for them, because it remains being a very very rare effect.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Kodama.6453

[Sobx.1758]

7 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

There are many such interactions.

Basically any form of hard CC can lock the ranger out of their class mechanic, which is the pet. If the pet is stunlocked, it can't use it's skills, rendering it useless. And that is way more frequent than revealed applied from other players. In competitive game modes, the same applies to mechanist. CC the mech and it's can't use it's skills, rendering it useless and you are locked out of using it.

 

CC works for everyone all the same. Last time I checked, it didn't exactly matter what class you play or what mechanics you utilized. In this particular case, if you have single target cc then you're effectively chosing between the player and pet (lol). If it's aoe cc, it's still the equivalent of stunning a player of a class not having a pet (but there's always a bonus possibility of having the pet not stunned, at which point ranger still pulls ahead in that comparison). Seriosuly, that's just another weird strawman that attempts to avoid responding to what you've quoted and it didn't even work seeing how revealed and stealth attacks are build-specific and getting cced isn't.

7 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Necromancer can get locked out of their death shroud, moa signet is a thing that not only disables your entire build while you are moa'd, but it also ends all transformations you were in (which includes death shroud) and puts them on cd. The cd for death shroud is 10 seconds, so you will be locked out of your class mechanic for that long if you get moa'd.

Bladesworn: CC them during their charging of the dragon trigger and they get locked out of it until it comes off cooldown (8 seconds).

We can go on and on with that. Other classes can also get locked out of their mechanics, this is not a unique situation for deadeye.

Just like above, this works for everyone all the same. What a terrible attempt at strawman.

If you're done with coming up with these clearly irrelevant comparisons, I hope you can finally go back to what I wrote in my posts and respond to it. Can you?

Edited February 9, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Kodama.6453]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Just like above, this works for everyone all the same.

As said, the skill ends transformations and puts them on cooldown. So it is not the same for everyone.

If a deadeye is moa'd, that doesn't put all their stealth skills on cooldown after it ends. They can then proceed to use these effects.
If a necromancer gets moa'd during death shroud, then the death shroud ends and is therefore put on cooldown, which lasts 10 seconds. So not only did you forbid the necromancer to use their mechanic while they are moa'd, you are also locking them out of that mechanic when moa ends (meaning it remains on 4 seconds cooldown for the mesmer signet after it ends and on 7 seconds cooldown if moa'd by Toss Elixir X).

Nuance doesn't seem to be your strong side. Your strong class bias is showing, I guess there is no point in discussing this matter with you, good day.

[Fueki.4753]

34 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Do you agree or disagree that the espec is built around stealth attacks? Do you understand that they get locked out of that mechanic (again: not exactly about "stealth", but about "stealth attacks") or is there still something unclear about it here?

There's literally merely two traits on Deadeye that's interacting with Stealth attacks and both do more than merely adding to Stealth Attacks. This means, Deadeye is not build around them. Stealth Attacks are not a profession mechanic, or any actual mechanic, they are just a type of abilities available during Stealth.

The profession/specialization mechanic on Deadeye is Deadeye's Mark, and only that. And Deadeye is primarily build around that.

And that profession Mechanic is not affected by Reveal in any way.

 

[Sobx.1758]

4 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

As said, the skill ends transformations and puts them on cooldown. So it is not the same for everyone.

If a deadeye is moa'd, that doesn't put all their stealth skills on cooldown after it ends. They can then proceed to use these effects.
If a necromancer gets moa'd during death shroud, then the death shroud ends and is therefore put on cooldown, which lasts 10 seconds. So not only did you forbid the necromancer to use their mechanic while they are moa'd, you are also locking them out of that mechanic when moa ends (meaning it remains on 4 seconds cooldown for the mesmer signet after it ends and on 7 seconds cooldown if moa'd by Toss Elixir X).

Nuance doesn't seem to be your strong side. Your strong class bias is showing, I guess there is no point in discussing this matter with you, good day.

I play enough things to be fine with any change, which doesn't mean I won't point out when something doesn't make sense to me, so much for strong class bias. I also specifically proposed changes to stealth for it to not be as spammable as it is now. Meanwhile you still keep dodging for the past few posts while instead coming up with new strawmen 🤔

But yeah, 4 second cd on shroud when mesmer's moa is on a 3minute cd -or 7 sec 1,5min cd on elixir- is totally the same, now that's a nuanced take.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Kodama.6453]

5 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

The profession/specialization mechanic on Deadeye is Deadeye's Mark, and only that. And Deadeye is primarily build around that.

And that profession Mechanic is not affected by Reveal in any way.

Sorry, but that is wrong.

The mark is part of the mechanic, but there is also the malice mechanic for deadeye. Which only has one purpose: increasing the effects of the malicious stealth attacks, which are unique for the deadeye and also part of the class mechanic. And you just have access to these malicious stealth attacks.... by being stealthed.

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Stealth is objectively not a profession/specialization mechanic. It's a core gameplay mechanic, even if Deadeye is designed around abusing it.

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

That I wrote that Deadeye is designed around abusing Stealth should give you enough insight to your first question there.

...but suddenly:

7 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

This means, Deadeye is not build around them.

Good one.

 

7 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Stealth Attacks are not a profession mechanic, or any actual mechanic, they are just a type of abilities available during Stealth.

I wonder by what deifnition of profession mechanics "stealth attacks" are not thief's profession mechanic.

7 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

The profession/specialization mechanic on Deadeye is Deadeye's Mark, and only that. And Deadeye is primarily build around that.

And that profession Mechanic is not affected by Reveal in any way.

Try googling "malice" or something and come back after you read a little about it 😄 Not DE profession mechanic and nothing to do with stealth attacks, right?

Edited February 9, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Yasai.3549]

Sorry but you're treating Revealed as a Stunbreak and Stealth as a CC? It's not so simple. 

Firstly, it doesn't even begin to address how Revealed cannot be applied to someone who's already in Stealth, and Stealth stacking is very easily achieved by troublemakers who already do so very well. The only "counterplay" is to apply the Revealed early and dare the opponent to make a bad move or back off. That's the literal ONLY way you can counter Stealth, because the nature of Stealth is straight up non-interaction. 

This is why Stealth is such a huge bloody issue, because its nature is non-interaction. Afterall, you can't really hit what you cannot target. 

Best way to solve the Revealed-Stealth balance? 
Option 1. Revealed skills are all made into an AoE aura, as a buff that is applied onto themselves by the user. This means it changes the way how Stealth players engage these players with "True sight" for a few seconds. 
Option 2. Make Revealed skills pulse in an AoE, if it hits the target, they are Revealed. If they were Stealthed, they are Revealed for longer. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Yasai.3549