Vindicator won't stop overperforming until you bring back one evade.

[Shao.7236]

An evident fact since you almost have nothing left to nerf and it's still a problem. You just don't give someone better evades, a better weapon and another row of utility expecting it's gonna ever be balanced.

Edit: for those new and confused about the topic. Vindicator adds plenty options that don't require halving the single evade mechanic to somehow compensate with 2 which act as training wheels in a literal sense to the design. An evade worth 2 with a powerful after effect, new block and utility that works in tagent with everything gives plenty benefits/options for survival compared having to nerf everything in vain of 2 evades that are basically killing anything that makes Vindicator unique, turning it into the best elite because it acts a straight upgrade to core.

Anet nerfed the wrong things (as usual) to create an unbalanced yet unfun and lacking in options almagation that somehow people still advocates for by removing all the fun and possibilities for 2 (better) evades. (Salvation is also a joke and needs to go, it's a support line, not supposed to be make a better roamer.) All they have to do is revert the non sense and keep the proper nerfs to what was overpowered co-efficients on certain skills and traits so that players require the right stats to do the right job. Some skills on Viktor were also too strong in a PvP setting and their CD is justified.

To finally state that most players still double evade without consequence with this which highlights even more the issue with this direction, encouraging players towards that kind of gameplay is super toxic. It doesn't act as the same as one in two, it acts as a forgiving extra evade to chain even more added sustain on top of the already existing sustain revenant is naturally good at (which was nerfed badly in the past for Renegade as well).

Edited February 10, 2023 by Shao.7236
State the obvious in this thread.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

34 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

An evident fact since you almost have nothing left to nerf and it's still a problem. You just don't give someone better evades, a better weapon and another row of utility expecting it's gonna ever be balanced.

Nah, they'll figure it out. FWIW, I'm a proponent of not having 'tradeoffs' just to punish a spec. I think there is a medium that they can achieve through skill splits. They'll probably have to increase the energy costs in the end on GS4 and Scavenger Burst in order to really balance it though.

[Shao.7236]

44 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Nah, they'll figure it out. FWIW, I'm a proponent of not having 'tradeoffs' just to punish a spec. I think there is a medium that they can achieve through skill splits. They'll probably have to increase the energy costs in the end on GS4 and Scavenger Burst in order to really balance it though.

There's 0 risk and you get everything. Not a matter of trade off, this is literally a straight upgrade and it's terrible.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

There's 0 risk and you get everything. Not a matter of trade off, this is literally a straight upgrade and it's terrible.

That is their fault for ever considering the base dodge as something to kitten with, but that cat is out of the bag and we have to live with it.

What this means for Vindicator in the end is that some energy requirements on the other defensive skills will need to increase,  and the sustain from the heal on dodge traits will have to be decreased.

Just like I don't agree with tradeoffs as an espec nerf, I don't agree with nerfing core for the sins of the espec. Increasing the energy cost or CD on GS4 and Scavenger Burst seems the obvious targets to me, but I am not a rev main, so I'll defer to you.

[ArthurDent.9538]

54 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

There's 0 risk and you get everything. Not a matter of trade off, this is literally a straight upgrade and it's terrible.

How do I put this simply? Traitlines make builds stronger, more traitlines more good, Vindicator is a traitline, it is better to run vindicator than to run with only 2 traitlines, this applies to litterally every traitline in this game.

Edited February 6, 2023 by ArthurDent.9538

[Shao.7236]

7 minutes ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

How do I explain this, more traitlines = more gooder, vindicator is a traitline that makes a build better, 3 traitlines is always better than 2, if not then its an extremely really kitten traitline.

How do I put this simply? Traitlines make builds stronger, more traitlines more good, Vindicator is a traitline, it is better to run vindicator than to run with only 2 traitlines, this applies to litterally every traitline in this game.

Entire concept of Vindicator is that you can only dodge once because you have more built in utility to manage, adding two evades destroyed any sense of fun and innovation by generalizing it because no one wanted to adapt the concept. Now what we have is Revenant 2.0 with even less risk and more reward added to it.

If it's "just" a traitline, why can't I play with Sword/Sh and Shortbow on Core? Because it ain't just a traitline. Elite specs are not just traitlines, introducing concepts is not just a traitline.

54 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

What this means for Vindicator in the end is that some energy requirements on the other defensive skills will need to increase,  and the sustain from the heal on dodge traits will have to be decreased.

Wait until Alliances is literally unplayable to see people fallback on Jalis while still having the two dodges, extra evade potential with a better weapon. Then what, nerf core legend? Why not, they did it for Renegade and never looked back. Who suffers in the end? Definitely not those who just want to win and not have fun with their profession.

[Sereath.1428]

Single dodge was a miserable experience for both the revenant player and the people fighting them, they actually mentioned this when they opted to change it.
For that very reason that it was a bad experience for most players, it would have continue being nerfed.
"Ahhh that dodge looks so powerful, look how high and for how long they dodge! When I dodge it doesn't look as cool :c This class is intimidating to fight and I don't like it."

Regardless, the meta would have remained the exact same as today.
3-5 Elementalists per team and the rest Spellbreakers.

Edited February 6, 2023 by XxsdgxX.8109

[apharma.3741]

Meanwhile in mirage land...

[Disney.7826]

Yes, Vindi very OP.

[Shao.7236]

4 hours ago, XxsdgxX.8109 said:

Single dodge was a miserable experience for both the revenant player and the people fighting them, they actually mentioned this when they opted to change it.
For that very reason that it was a bad experience for most players, it would have continue being nerfed.
"Ahhh that dodge looks so powerful, look how high and for how long they dodge! When I dodge it doesn't look as cool :c This class is intimidating to fight and I don't like it."

Regardless, the meta would have remained the exact same as today.
3-5 Elementalists per team and the rest Spellbreakers.

An eye opening reveal isn't it? It's always a miserable experience to learn for those with little patience. Which is undoubtly only what's left in the majority of gaming nowadays, nothing can be fun /and/ effective. Only optimal and in favor of generalizing, even if it's factually wrong.

Where are all the other changes based on people opinion if it's that important? Nowhere, Vindicator is a selling point until it isn't.

Bring on the constant double dodging which is definitely not an obvious fact towards the initial design. Let's make it super easy so that players can't learn what real high risk high reward means by allowing instant correction of their mistakes.

You can leave the meta to the carbon copies who couldn't handle the idea figure out anything with experience for themselves. That's what the top spot is for. The fact being anywhere close to it gives me the most jarring experiences everytime is proof of it.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

vindi was trash design from day 1, just delete it already

[Sereath.1428]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

An eye opening reveal isn't it? It's always a miserable experience to learn for those with little patience. Which is undoubtly only what's left in the majority of gaming nowadays, nothing can be fun /and/ effective. Only optimal and in favor of generalizing, even if it's factually wrong.

Where are all the other changes based on people opinion if it's that important? Nowhere, Vindicator is a selling point until it isn't.

Bring on the constant double dodging which is definitely not an obvious fact towards the initial design. Let's make it super easy so that players can't learn what real high risk high reward means by allowing instant correction of their mistakes.

You can leave the meta to the carbon copies who couldn't handle the idea figure out anything with experience for themselves. That's what the top spot is for. The fact being anywhere close to it gives me the most jarring experiences everytime is proof of it.

Hmm, I actually agree with you.

47 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

vindi was trash design from day 1, just delete it already

That's what I think of every elite spec since Path of Fire.

Edited February 6, 2023 by XxsdgxX.8109

[Shao.7236]

22 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

vindi was trash design from day 1, just delete it already

Revenant by default can chain evades, stability and blocks, Vindicator can chain even more evades, even more stability (+ hard cc), even more blocks and instant mitigate damage.

Vindicator wasn't trash, the community is trash. Couldn't solve a puzzle even if there were numbers on the back of each piece to align on a table.

Now Vindi is for trash until everything fun about it is gutted in the vain of double evading.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Shao.7236

[Buran.3796]

   Where do you get that is overperforming? I think that was only 1 in the whole roster last MAT and didn't last long. 

"Because balance team is nerfing it" Well, the balance team brought us machinegun rifle Mech, bugged Bladesworn, scepter Catalyst... I won't take their words as gospel in terms of balance based on they works so far.

"Is not fun to play" Well, that applies to 95% of the current specs and core builds, imo. They sucessfuly made Herald and Renegade obnoxious to play (with) and Vindicator isn't better. I haven't played Herald in PvP in a year, Renagade in 6 months or Vindicator in almost 4. 

   I won't play a Vindi in PvP nor WvW if they remove the evade again, tho.

[Shao.7236]

40 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Where do you get that is overperforming? I think that was only 1 in the whole roster last MAT and didn't last long. 

"Because balance team is nerfing it" Well, the balance team brought us machinegun rifle Mech, bugged Bladesworn, scepter Catalyst... I won't take their words as gospel in terms of balance based on they works so far.

"Is not fun to play" Well, that applies to 95% of the current specs and core builds, imo. They sucessfuly made Herald and Renegade obnoxious to play (with) and Vindicator isn't better. I haven't played Herald in PvP in a year, Renagade in 6 months or Vindicator in almost 4. 

   I won't play a Vindi in PvP nor WvW if they remove the evade again, tho.

Please if the only argument is "MAT" don't say anything. Nobody in MAT ever plays anything that takes more than two braincells let alone any of the people that keeps this dying game mode cares for MAT.

It's a circlejerk of it's own that only most delusional players are willing to care about in a ever changing game that has no sense of direction or consistency that respect the player skill and dedication to it's content.

You don't need everything else nerfed to see that two evade Vindicator is a problem, it can be easily felt by playing with or against. The fact that people willingly accept to take away from existing options to make fit for another newer elite in town is disgusting and against the idea of having "new" content.

It was said by many including myself even before the release of EoD that if you desire to play Vindi like it's anything else you're used to, you might as well play that anything else like you're used and not Vindi. Ruining existing content because cool new spec goes brr is only for those that run on the careless principle of if it's new it has to be better.

Anything for Revenant Anet has done 9 times out of 10 is an insult to their long term players and adding 2 evades to Vindicator to please the whining of people unable to manage one evade while having more utility is one of them.

I'm so tired of the "what about insert any profession", I play Revenant almost exclusively and I'm not gonna sit back at the thought of ruining the profession even more to appeal at the people who just want it their way instead of accepting it's not for them. If I see a problem with my profession I will kitten call it out, don't care for the cringe that resides outside of it, that's a whole other topic.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Shao.7236

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

10 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Revenant by default can chain evades, stability and blocks, Vindicator can chain even more evades, even more stability (+ hard cc), even more blocks and instant mitigate damage.

Vindicator wasn't trash, the community is trash. Couldn't solve a puzzle even if there were numbers on the back of each piece to align on a table.

Now Vindi is for trash until everything fun about it is gutted in the vain of double evading.

Vindi dodge is the worst design ive seen in this game. GS is basically staff but it does damage. Alliance stance giving 2 sets of utilities is pointless power creep. It was clear since beta that vindi would be a mess.

[Shao.7236]

5 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Vindi dodge is the worst design ive seen in this game. GS is basically staff but it does damage. Alliance stance giving 2 sets of utilities is pointless power creep. It was clear since beta that vindi would be a mess.

Well initially people hated skill switching and apparently it was too much effort to make skill switching be on demand rather than full flips.

[Buran.3796]

2 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

I'm so tired of the "what about insert any profession", I play Revenant almost exclusively and I'm not gonna sit back at the thought of ruining the profession even more to appeal at the people who just want it their way instead of accepting it's not for them. If I see a problem with my profession I will kitten call it out, don't care for the cringe that resides outside of it, that's a whole other topic.

   It doesn't work that way. Vindi has different evading option and endurance costs at the second EoD beta and in the 4rd beta they gutted the damage, the sustain AND capped the evades to a single, non stackable dodge.

   Then ANet released EoD and they keep nerfing the damage until no one was running Forerunner of Death. People moved to Saint of zu Heltzer and then they nerfed the heals/barrier until the trait did nothing, but they still kept hammering down the damage. So people moved to Vassals, a PvE trait.

   Then in July ANet had the great idea of nerfing the two 714 HP heals in The Alliance legend designed for often usage from 10 to 30 seconds cooldown. So people moved from Devastation to Salvation, because the damage was being meh anyway.

   Salvation is a corner in which ANet put Vindi players, not a free choice. As with  scepter Catalyst, is a self-inflicted wound. The same as making most of the runes SO BAD that now almost everything runs zerker amulet + Divinity. Is Divinity any good? Naah, but they made the others so trash that the combo makes sense.

   Never saw Azurrs playing staff neither Salvation; you'll see gs + staff in less capable hands because at the moment the best role Vindi can fit is "make other players to waste time on me". Is not good at ccing and not that great bruiser, but has mobility to disengage and blocks/evades to bore people. Is semi-useless at competitive matches but can waste a lot of time from others.

   Now ANet claims that wants it to move towards more offensive traits: "We'd like to see vindicator builds move into more offensive trait choices to make up for the loss in damage, instead of remaining a damage threat while focusing on defensive traits"  ...But they just chose to cut damage across greatsword and Archemorus skills. Why should the players move from Invocation to Devastation? Devastation won't make you win vs a bruiser or a duelist build, whereas Invocation turns the fight into mud wrestling and makes hard for others to kill you. With Ren botched and Herald utterly unable to +1 against EoD top dogs Vindi fill perfectly the role of "slippery tank". Just where ANet ignoratly had guided it.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Buran.3796

[Buran.3796]

1 minute ago, Buran.3796 said:

 

   Sorry, dp.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Buran.3796

[Buran.3796]

52 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Well initially people hated skill switching and apparently it was too much effort to make skill switching be on demand rather than full flips.

  Skill flipping was terrible and made no sense. No one asked for a second row of legend skills, much less taking in account that swapping the Alliance didn't provide any extra energy, and much less with half of them being offensive and the other half support. The skill flip added 10 extra seconds of cd + the need to waste energy just to recover the use of the one you wanted.

   Imagine to be a Firebrand and having your tome pages switch between virtues with each use, or an Ele and your skills changing attunement with each use. 

[Shao.7236]

51 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

  Skill flipping was terrible and made no sense. No one asked for a second row of legend skills, much less taking in account that swapping the Alliance didn't provide any extra energy, and much less with half of them being offensive and the other half support. The skill flip added 10 extra seconds of cd + the need to waste energy just to recover the use of the one you wanted.

   Imagine to be a Firebrand and having your tome pages switch between virtues with each use, or an Ele and your skills changing attunement with each use. 

Missing the point, skill flipping on demand is better than the trash we have right now.

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, Buran.3796 said:

   It doesn't work that way. Vindi has different evading option and endurance costs at the second EoD beta and in the 4rd beta they gutted the damage, the sustain AND capped the evades to a single, non stackable dodge.

   Then ANet released EoD and they keep nerfing the damage until no one was running Forerunner of Death. People moved to Saint of zu Heltzer and then they nerfed the heals/barrier until the trait did nothing, but they still kept hammering down the damage. So people moved to Vassals, a PvE trait.

   Then in July ANet had the great idea of nerfing the two 714 HP heals in The Alliance legend designed for often usage from 10 to 30 seconds cooldown. So people moved from Devastation to Salvation, because the damage was being meh anyway.

   Salvation is a corner in which ANet put Vindi players, not a free choice. As with  scepter Catalyst, is a self-inflicted wound. The same as making most of the runes SO BAD that now almost everything runs zerker amulet + Divinity. Is Divinity any good? Naah, but they made the others so trash that the combo makes sense.

   Never saw Azurrs playing staff neither Salvation; you'll see gs + staff in less capable hands because at the moment the best role Vindi can fit is "make other players to waste time on me". Is not good at ccing and not that great bruiser, but has mobility to disengage and blocks/evades to bore people. Is semi-useless at competitive matches but can waste a lot of time from others.

   Now ANet claims that wants it to move towards more offensive traits: "We'd like to see vindicator builds move into more offensive trait choices to make up for the loss in damage, instead of remaining a damage threat while focusing on defensive traits"  ...But they just chose to cut damage across greatsword and Archemorus skills. Why should the players move from Invocation to Devastation? Devastation won't make you win vs a bruiser or a duelist build, whereas Invocation turns the fight into mud wrestling and makes hard for others to kill you. With Ren botched and Herald utterly unable to +1 against EoD top dogs Vindi fill perfectly the role of "slippery tank". Just where ANet ignoratly had guided it.

They're not doing anyone any favor adding power creep to compensate for overpowered garbage that will get nerfed in the next 2 years.

Vindicator by default had enough ways to get endurance, it's not until they began randomly throwing darts at a board that everyone started to assume not having a second evade is bad.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Shao.7236

[Sereath.1428]

1 hour ago, Buran.3796 said:

   It doesn't work that way. Vindi has different evading option and endurance costs at the second EoD beta and in the 4rd beta they gutted the damage, the sustain AND capped the evades to a single, non stackable dodge.

   Then ANet released EoD and they keep nerfing the damage until no one was running Forerunner of Death. People moved to Saint of zu Heltzer and then they nerfed the heals/barrier until the trait did nothing, but they still kept hammering down the damage. So people moved to Vassals, a PvE trait.

   Then in July ANet had the great idea of nerfing the two 714 HP heals in The Alliance legend designed for often usage from 10 to 30 seconds cooldown. So people moved from Devastation to Salvation, because the damage was being meh anyway.

   Salvation is a corner in which ANet put Vindi players, not a free choice. As with  scepter Catalyst, is a self-inflicted wound. The same as making most of the runes SO BAD that now almost everything runs zerker amulet + Divinity. Is Divinity any good? Naah, but they made the others so trash that the combo makes sense.

   Never saw Azurrs playing staff neither Salvation; you'll see gs + staff in less capable hands because at the moment the best role Vindi can fit is "make other players to waste time on me". Is not good at ccing and not that great bruiser, but has mobility to disengage and blocks/evades to bore people. Is semi-useless at competitive matches but can waste a lot of time from others.

   Now ANet claims that wants it to move towards more offensive traits: "We'd like to see vindicator builds move into more offensive trait choices to make up for the loss in damage, instead of remaining a damage threat while focusing on defensive traits"  ...But they just chose to cut damage across greatsword and Archemorus skills. Why should the players move from Invocation to Devastation? Devastation won't make you win vs a bruiser or a duelist build, whereas Invocation turns the fight into mud wrestling and makes hard for others to kill you. With Ren botched and Herald utterly unable to +1 against EoD top dogs Vindi fill perfectly the role of "slippery tank". Just where ANet ignoratly had guided it.

Great points to be honest.

Greatsword + Sword/Sword was kinda viable right now with current Salvation.
But now who the kitten is going to bother with that after gutting Salvation and Greatsword damage that hard.

Those nerfs to Imperial Impact and True Strike are completely out of touch (and it spoke volumes). With the first one being the alternative jump to the real meta one (Death Drop) and with True Strike already being an incredibly clunky and hard skill to land.

Just like with Herald, only Invocation and Devastation seem to be allowed to be viable choices. RIP Retribution and Salvation.
You better carry a staff at all times otherwise you are getting farmed.

Balance philosophy still seems to be the same, nerf alternative playstyles to death.

I liked your comment on runes because it is the reality.
The build options within sPvP are boring as hell. Just slap Divinity in most builds because either other runes have been nerfed to death or they simply don't exist (Durability, Fireworks, etc).

[Jobber.6348]

On 2/6/2023 at 12:11 PM, Shao.7236 said:

Now what we have is Revenant 2.0 with even less risk and more reward added to it.

Can confirm. You don't even have to use the second Legend. And even if you do use non Alliance, Vindicator's dodges are so good that it makes Core Rev playstyle (Core Legends, Core weapons) even better. 

[Shao.7236]

10 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Can confirm. You don't even have to use the second Legend. And even if you do use non Alliance, Vindicator's dodges are so good that it makes Core Rev playstyle (Core Legends, Core weapons) even better. 

THANK YOU, 1+1 = 2 and I'm glad I'm not the only one noticing it. Just looking at the coming changes (Adding back Steal to Daredevil)they know how to power creep and kill incentive.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Shao.7236