Improve rewards based on player kills

[April.4765]

My idea is something like this

Every 500 kills, your rewards improve by one tier.

 

Tier 1 : 2.5 gold, 10 WvW exclusive bags

Tier 2:  5 gold, 20 WvW exclusive bags

Tier 3:  8 gold, 50 WvW exclusive bags

and so on.

 

The bags can contain tokens that can redeem  WvW exclusive skins or such that can be obtained through this.

This way you encourage players to actively participate in defending or following commander, instead of repairing a structure for rewards, which only encourage afk players and troll players.

[Heibi.4251]

Please, no more tokens for player kills. I already have 1900 avenger tokens that are useless and keep accumulating with nothing to use or spend them on. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Heibi.4251

[Dawdler.8521]

4 minutes ago, April.4765 said:

This way you encourage players to actively participate in defending or following commander, instead of repairing a structure for rewards, which only encourage afk players and troll players.

And you also only encourage more brainless zerging because thats what gets the kills faster. 

Rewards are already heavily stacked toward zerging with the simple fact that kills give bags. More kills, more bags (and this ignore the rewards from karma training objectives).

If I ask the question, who deserves more rewards in these situations:

Player A joins a 5 man group on DBL, roams, defend objectives, engages in fight with other small groups but only get maybe 20 kills in 1 hour because its fairly calm.

Player B joins an EB commander in prime for 1 hour and racks up 200+ kills because they are roflstomping the enemy.

Will you say "oh yeah totally that 1h player B spent in WvW is worth so much more than the 1h player A spent in WvW"?

[April.4765]

29 minutes ago, Heibi.4251 said:

Please, no more tokens for player kills. I already have 1900 avenger tokens that are useless and keep accumulating with nothing to use or spend them on. 

You are right. Maybe it can be in a form of currency where it wont take up bag space?

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Just give me some silver per kill and a way to convert Emblems into gold. 

PPT aint my thing. 

[devastoscz.9851]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

And you also only encourage more brainless zerging because thats what gets the kills faster. 

Rewards are already heavily stacked toward zerging with the simple fact that kills give bags. More kills, more bags (and this ignore the rewards from karma training objectives).

If I ask the question, who deserves more rewards in these situations:

Player A joins a 5 man group on DBL, roams, defend objectives, engages in fight with other small groups but only get maybe 20 kills in 1 hour because its fairly calm.

Player B joins an EB commander in prime for 1 hour and racks up 200+ kills because they are roflstomping the enemy.

Will you say "oh yeah totally that 1h player B spent in WvW is worth so much more than the 1h player A spent in WvW"?

Your second question is disingenuous; rewards are not scaled in terms of "worth of time", but the scope of the battle. To your first question, yes the second player should be more rewarded if his group is "roflstomping the enemy" and racking up 200+ kills. Your 5 man group would not have defended against the 200 people the zergling helped kill in one hour. Statistically, his group engaged a more dangerous, more powerful enemy in one hour than you did. You might say he was carried and that its less skilled gameplay (that's debatable, and I partially agree), but that doesn't make it unfair for the player to receive more rewards than you. The zergling is likely playing a zerg class, in a zerg build, in coordination with 30-50 other people, likely in comms, scheduled their free time when the opposition is stronger (and thus requires a larger group). You chose not to do this (there are servers with SEA/OCX/NA/EU "primetimes" in both regions) and spent your time doing what you like: roaming.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love roaming. I think its one of the most challenging and fun experiences in this game. Just like dueling your friends, or GvG's in EOTM, or X number of things that are not optimal reward farming but provide tons of competitive enjoyment. But if your 1 hour of gameplay must be used to optimally collect rewards, you COULD go do Fractal CM's or farm "insertrpvemapname" meta. Thing is, that's also your choice.

Imagine how support players feel in those zerg groups. Helping rack up the same number of kills, getting blamed if the group fails and getting 20% of the rewards their DPS counterparts do. Now that is "unfair".

---------

As for the main topic of this discussion: we don't need more currencies, tokens, pips, ding dongs or coodledo's per hour. We need more incentives to keep playing to earn those currencies at a reasonable rate. Something AWESOME to use extra tickets on. Let me trade in my Emblems/Tokens of the avenger for something remotely useful. Gimme something you can only buy once a week using an absurd amount of badges, that requires you to break.. (silver/gold/x) chest in the weekly pip track. Keep...me... playing.

If they keep increasing the RATE of rewards instead of the DIVERSITY/QUALITY of rewards, they're encouraging not only the "mindless zerglings", but the reward centered casuals, afk farmers, the bots, the camp flip floppers, etc.

I need more/better carrots on the stick, not a shorter stick.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, devastoscz.9851 said:

Your second question is disingenuous; rewards are not scaled in terms of "worth of time", but the scope of the battle. To your first question, yes the second player should be more rewarded if his group is "roflstomping the enemy" and racking up 200+ kills.

Thats the point.

Take todays "1h worth" in that comparison and player B already rake in TONS more loot. Some of it is passive gain (skirmish/reward track) some of it is active gains (kills, events).

OP want even more loot and exponential gains for player B on top of the current reward structure because this idea only values zergs fighting each other.

I mean we COULD suggest more loot that is fairly distributed to everyone including roamers by improving the skirmish/reward tracks but nah.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Chaba.5410]

5 hours ago, April.4765 said:

This way you encourage players to actively participate in defending or following commander

What's to stop players from doing none of those things and just going to a random corner of a map and kill each other over and over?

[April.4765]

28 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Thats the point.

Take todays "1h worth" in that comparison and player B already rake in TONS more loot. Some of it is passive gain (skirmish/reward track) some of it is active gains (kills, events).

OP want even more loot and exponential gains for player B on top of the current reward structure because this idea only values zergs fighting each other.

I mean we COULD suggest more loot that is fairly distributed to everyone including roamers by improving the skirmish/reward tracks but nah.

You made a good point but improving skrimish/track rewards will only backfired at this point.

 

Because I myself have a bank slot full of those skrimish/track potions that I got from WvW. I believe there are others players having even more than me. And thats really unfair to the new players.

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, devastoscz.9851 said:

To your first question, yes the second player should be more rewarded if his group is "roflstomping the enemy" and racking up 200+ kills. Your 5 man group would not have defended against the 200 people the zergling helped kill in one hour. Statistically, his group engaged a more dangerous, more powerful enemy in one hour than you did.

200 kills does not equal fighting 200 players, they might as well ran over a the same 10-20 players over and over again. In the end 200 kills with 50 players is as much "per player" kill contribution as 20 kills with 5 players, yet one is for some reason worth 10x as much despite usually requiring a lot less from the players. Just like 5 players defeating double their numbers is "worth" less than a zerg of 50 running over half their numbers. There is simply zero risk/performance vs reward balance.

[Xenesis.6389]

Mag player..

wants insane rewards for kills..

🤭🍿

 

[April.4765]

58 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

What's to stop players from doing none of those things and just going to a random corner of a map and kill each other over and over?

I thought of that too. And I do not know if the programming stucture  of GW2 allows to do this.

My idea is once a player has has kill a certain unique player for example, 50 times max? It won't allow a kill of that unique player to be register for a 24 hours period? Just an idea.

 

[devastoscz.9851]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

200 kills does not equal fighting 200 players, they might as well ran over a the same 10-20 players over and over again. In the end 200 kills with 50 players is as much "per player" kill contribution as 20 kills with 5 players, yet one is for some reason worth 10x as much despite usually requiring a lot less from the players. Just like 5 players defeating double their numbers is "worth" less than a zerg of 50 running over half their numbers. There is simply zero risk/performance vs reward balance.

 

200 kills is 200 "tags" is what you mean. So does your 20 kills as a 5 man group, you could be killing the same poor baby ranger over and over. Oh but you wont, because the baby ranger will get tired after the 3rd or 4th time and decide not to feed you. Guess what, so will that other 10-20 man group feeding the 50 man zerg. Its literally a zerg term, "content denial", a common and practiced strategy to not feed the likes of Indo for example.

 

What you're asking is not feasible in the sense that it implies a removal of the "per tag/kill" loot drop system.  That is the essence of the entire game's loot drop mechanics, PVE included, so people on the "same team" don't fight for the last hit on any given enemy.

 

I think the point I was trying to make is that you CHOOSE to roam. Others CHOOSE to zerg. One is more efficient in terms of rewards per hour than the other and requires "less skill" and the other is a personal challenge you impose on yourself. Should you the whole reward structure be restructured because "the few" don't get as much rewards as "the many"?

 

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Thats the point.

Take todays "1h worth" in that comparison and player B already rake in TONS more loot. Some of it is passive gain (skirmish/reward track) some of it is active gains (kills, events).

OP want even more loot and exponential gains for player B on top of the current reward structure because this idea only values zergs fighting each other.

I mean we COULD suggest more loot that is fairly distributed to everyone including roamers by improving the skirmish/reward tracks but nah.

I would agree with you entirely except for one thing, this is too easy to abuse. Whilst roaming and even in primetime, I've seen SO MANY afk farmers, including players from my own server getting upset that a camp/structure is defended from other players and not be left to flip so they can flip it back for participation.
Stacking rewards into participation system and its reward track will be a huge incentive for the proliferation of these afk farmers which is not only a bad look for the game (just like afk farmers in PVE), but in WvW they take up slots from people who actually want to play the game.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, April.4765 said:

My idea is once a player has has kill a certain unique player for example, 50 times max? It won't allow a kill of that unique player to be register for a 24 hours period? Just an idea.

The current loot system already has diminishing returns (a "time alive" multiplier is in effect which is why the WXP you get per player vary alot). Having the cake and eating it too is a common saying but you seem to want to gobble up a whole bakery you own.

[April.4765]

4 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

The current loot system already has diminishing returns (a "time alive" multiplier is in effect which is why the WXP you get per player vary alot). Having the cake and eating it too is a common saying but you seem to want to gobble up a whole bakery you own.

You mistaken my intention, good sir. 

I just suggesting a unique player id cannot be farmed by another unique player id for more than 50 times.

[Zyreva.1078]

17 minutes ago, devastoscz.9851 said:

What you're asking is not feasible in the sense that it implies a removal of the "per tag/kill" loot drop system.  That is the essence of the entire game's loot drop mechanics, PVE included, so people on the "same team" don't fight for the last hit on any given enemy.

Doesn't need to be based on last hit. Could be based on kill contribution and split instead of being multiplied. Works in other games, can also work in GW2. Unlikely to happen, but would imo be a more more healthy and fair system that incentivices equal or even outnumbered fights more than stacking and outnumbering with the latter often leading to unhealthy gameplay (bandwagoning, ganking, spawn camping, focusing the weaker side, ...)

[Rhansem.4865]

A system much like the current scavenger bags could work. Time gate the drops and improve them to compensate for the reduction in frequency. A good roamer will get individual kills as often as a zerg will kill another zerg putting the rate of getting rewards the same. A support will also tag a couple people in a zerg fight too solving the issue of not getting the same rewards. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

Since we already have the achievements in place for the killing of players and taking of objectives, and as people have been saying that they have a lot of emblems, maybe use that as a base. Maybe instead use the time to create a vendor that uses the emblems that already tracked the kills as currency and then allow those to be traded for the materials, coin, MoBs and such. With that infrastructure in place they could then add tabs for other items like unique WvW skins and other items that players would be interested in or find rewarding to them.

 

[devastoscz.9851]

2 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Doesn't need to be based on last hit. Could be based on kill contribution and split instead of being multiplied. Works in other games, can also work in GW2. Unlikely to happen, but would imo be a more more healthy and fair system that incentivices equal or even outnumbered fights more than stacking and outnumbering with the latter often leading to unhealthy gameplay (bandwagoning, ganking, spawn camping, focusing the weaker side, ...)

So let me see if I understand this correctly...lets assume 1g is the price per kill. If you solo roam and you kill an enemy in a 1v1, you get 1g. But if your group is 10v1 a guy, you get 10s (ie. 1g divided by 10)? So in a 50 v 50, assuming everyone tags each other, you still get 1g? Then why participate or defend a tower/keep, SMC, or anything else for that matter when you can just go gank the solo players at their spawn for 1g a pop on a stealth glass cannon.

The point being the scope of the fight has to matter in the game mode. I'm sorry, but if you're playing this game mode for the loot drop reward, you should probably be playing some other mode, a much more profitable one.
I know this sounds like old vet talk, but I used to do daily fractals just so I could afford WvW, when upgrades cost money and when we got basically no drops from anything, roaming or otherwise. I don't understand why there is so much signaling of unfairness when its well within the player's choice if they want to optimize loot drops or optimize their own brand of fun. Unfortunately you're comparing your unoptimized, "fun" earnings to other people's optimized earnings which you consider boring/bad gameplay.

 

2 hours ago, Rhansem.4865 said:

A system much like the current scavenger bags could work. Time gate the drops and improve them to compensate for the reduction in frequency. A good roamer will get individual kills as often as a zerg will kill another zerg putting the rate of getting rewards the same. A support will also tag a couple people in a zerg fight too solving the issue of not getting the same rewards. 

Please expand on this? I'm not sure if its what I described above with a time gate or something else. This could be interesting maybe. Come to think of it, wouldn't it work like the skirmish timer/pip track (except your wvw doesnt matter)? ie. you can earn x amount of loot regardless of what you do, if you do the minimum (roamer scale participation) in 5 mins, you get the same as if you're in a 5 minute zerg fight. I dont know if I'm understanding this correctly.

Edited February 16, 2023 by devastoscz.9851

[Rhansem.4865]

3 minutes ago, devastoscz.9851 said:

Please expand on this? I'm not sure if its what I described above with a time gate or something else. This could be interesting maybe. Come to think of it, wouldn't it work like the skirmish timer/pip track (except your wvw doesnt matter)? ie. you can earn x amount of loot regardless of what you do, if you do the minimum (roamer scale participation) in 5 mins, you get the same as if you're in a 5 minute zerg fight. I dont know if I'm understanding this correctly.

 

Not like the participation thing. I mean that players drop loot bags but those loot bags can only be obtained every x minutes and the time gate is on the player doing the killing. So it doesn't matter if you keep killing the same person or many different people you can only get a loot drop after your cooldown has expired. Essentially an effort to bring the minimum and maximum loot for killing players to the same value independent of the size of the conflict, instead reward regular frequency of conflict.

[Mihile.7609]

*Cries in support*

[Zyreva.1078]

3 hours ago, devastoscz.9851 said:

Then why participate or defend a tower/keep, SMC, or anything else for that matter when you can just go gank the solo players at their spawn for 1g a pop on a stealth glass cannon.

Because the vast majority of players can't survive near an enemy spanw on their own for longer than a few seconds (the numbers of spawns that could be camped is also very limited and if multiple players had the same idea it suddenly becomes a lot less worthwhile. Also there could be a bonus for fighting for objectives. (Like in ESO for example. Still a lot of zerging there despite split rewards, so it clearly doesn't stop players from grouping up and going for objectives).

3 hours ago, devastoscz.9851 said:

The point being the scope of the fight has to matter in the game mode. I'm sorry, but if you're playing this game mode for the loot drop reward, you should probably be playing some other mode, a much more profitable one.

I don't care about the loot at all, but i do care about the gameplay that is shaped by the reward system (which is btw one reason why i belive the game mode used to be better when there weren't any rewards outside of fun). And the current systems aren't doing the game mode a favour imo, and lead to problematic behaviour one way or another as soon they become something worth farming.

[Greviathan.6107]

I don't like the idea of encouraging the zerg even more with a simple more kill more reward, this stuff should be limited to pve.

In my opinion kill-based rewards should be balanced.... but how?
Probably making the rewards inversely proportional to the number of people who contributed to the kill.
A formula like: reward (or droprate) / number of people who contributed.
So, in equal number fights you can receive 100% of the reward, while in a 10vs1 you receive 10% of the reward.

[April.4765]

2 hours ago, Greviathan.6107 said:

I don't like the idea of encouraging the zerg even more with a simple more kill more reward, this stuff should be limited to pve.

In my opinion kill-based rewards should be balanced.... but how?
Probably making the rewards inversely proportional to the number of people who contributed to the kill.
A formula like: reward (or droprate) / number of people who contributed.
So, in equal number fights you can receive 100% of the reward, while in a 10vs1 you receive 10% of the reward.

I like the idea, fair and unbiased.

[Gehenna.3625]

On 2/16/2023 at 10:49 AM, April.4765 said:

My idea is something like this

Every 500 kills, your rewards improve by one tier.

 

Tier 1 : 2.5 gold, 10 WvW exclusive bags

Tier 2:  5 gold, 20 WvW exclusive bags

Tier 3:  8 gold, 50 WvW exclusive bags

and so on.

 

The bags can contain tokens that can redeem  WvW exclusive skins or such that can be obtained through this.

This way you encourage players to actively participate in defending or following commander, instead of repairing a structure for rewards, which only encourage afk players and troll players.

Cool, so players can make agreements to slaughter each other quickly for rewards... or is that called win-trading? I forget...