Get some good rewards in WvW, and they take it away

[TheGrimm.5624]

 

tl;dr: Its complicated especially without knowing what ANet can capture or not to define what triggers what, and we have no details there. So will instead focus on defensive actions and how they might impact an outcome. 

There is a bit much here so I am going to break it down to clarify in hopes it makes more sense. More so since its not all about the contribution since it might help to show where actions get mudded and I can see where they might have issues measuring an action in regards to what they can see as effecting an event.

 

12 hours ago, Draygo.9473 said:

 

Repairing a wall is something that mainly should be done after the enemy is repelled.

Disagree here. Stopping the other sides momentum at the right time, note right time and not spamming supply, can break up an attacker and allow defenders to repulse an attack. So though I agree just patching a wall when 5 others are down and are under attack might be useless, patching a wall they downed after you destroyed their siege while they are not repelled is key to repelling them as you reduce their access points and allow your defenders to focus their efforts to counter.

 

12 hours ago, Draygo.9473 said:

Things that are more useful than repairing a wall:

Disabling enemy siege (this should count for participation)

There is some assumption here. Repairing a breach while siege is up is not the same as repairing a breach after siege is down. Going another route disabling siege has lower value if you can't destroy it, its a delaying action the same as repairing a wall that is being damaged, both didn't stop the assault but delayed it. Not saying either should score high bit in effectiveness neither resolved the issue and both wasted supply in comparison.

 

12 hours ago, Draygo.9473 said:

Building Shield Generators and Counter Siege (such as a ballista or treb) to destroy enemy siege

lol, this is one of those. For us sadists that build defensive siege would love some love from it but as we have seen ANet sees this as a negative action. Its a gold sync for those that defensively siege an objective. So if we make it add contribution while an attack is under way we would have players dropping blue siege all over for contribution where as that would just tickle most players it hit. Instead it might be better to extend contribution for players dropping higher quality defensive siege in place prior to an attack to make it so pre-defending didn't mean wasting time and coin as it does now.

 

12 hours ago, Draygo.9473 said:

 

When there are 5+ walls open in SMC repairing an outer wall still actively getting hit is a pure waste of supply, and does not actually contribute to defense. 

Yes and no. Closing each one removes access points and narrows the enemy down to where they might enter allowing you to focus your defenders. We keep viewing this as its treb fire that can't be stopped versus it was siege that was killed prior to wall closures in the same light. Not the same effectiveness.

 

12 hours ago, Draygo.9473 said:

You get ZERO reward for disabling siege or building counter siege right now and this is a problem.

Agree if disabling is not a factor, it should be, but that doesn't mean other factors that stop an assault shouldn't be discouraged when stopping the flow of reinforcements won the day. So lets look at it from multiple views. I am not for just having players use their supply into a pointless repair prior to a breach and entry but also don't want to discourage people to repair either. So is there a middle criteria something like a repair while deaths are occurring behind those lines are not the same as repairing prior to deaths behind those lines? We want people to close wall breaches when it means they sealed the enemy in and blocked reinforcements, but we don't want people to waste supply on wall that hasn't been breached and invaded.

Does that define it better?

 

[T G.7496]

This mode is best played for the fun of it. If you're here for the rewards you're doing it wrong, even if they are marginally better than they were.

[Gehenna.3625]

2 hours ago, T G.7496 said:

This mode is best played for the fun of it. If you're here for the rewards you're doing it wrong, even if they are marginally better than they were.

You're right in essence but...

1. A lot of people like to be rewarded with more than just fun. It's a main driver for repetitive gameplay and even though people like to say that competitive modes are different every time, but that's not really true when you think about it. For example, people putting siege at the same spot every time.
2. The legendary stuff takes very too long to obtain. Which means that if you want to get the legendary gear from WvW it takes a long time before you can focus on just fun.
3. When you're new in WvW, you're shafted for the first few months at least, but it could take more than a year. It means very slow progression with regards to WvW abilities and slow pips, so that makes it even worse to get anywhere. You're really at a disadvantage when you don't have the WvW abilities and you're not done with those until you hit rank 1295 or something.
4. For something to stay fun you'll need to add new stuff from time to time. I don't mean just class balances but new features and a new map from time to time, even changes to existing maps. It has to be disruptive to the point of it throwing things upside down and old habits just won't do anymore.

So yeah, you are right in a way, but WvW itself is set up in a way that it doesn't encourage playing for fun.

 

[Xenesis.6389]

3 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

1. When you're new in WvW, you're shafted for the first few months at least, but it could take more than a year. It means very slow progression with regards to WvW abilities and slow pips, so that makes it even worse to get anywhere. You're really at a disadvantage when you don't have the WvW abilities and you're not done with those until you hit rank 1295 or something.

It's no different than you first start the game in pve, you have nothing and takes a while to level, get your skills, traits, gear, then get to the expansions and get a ton of masteries, elite specs, tune yourself to take on high level fractals and raids, etc. Somehow people think they should just step into wvw and be a master of it from day one and earn it's top rewards in a couple weeks.

Also most of the wvw abilities are optional and not required, they don't put you at a combat disadvantage(guard stacks was the one that ever did), they give you bonuses for certain situations, half of which are tied to siege, most of which you wouldn't even operate very much unless you're camping them out, but also still not required.

The other quarter is like tied to npcs, and the other quarter is actual useful stuff like autoloot, extra supplies, mount and glider which you don't even need max points on. 1295 is a goal, not a requirement to function in wvw, lack of knowledge/experience is the real disadvantage in wvw, and like everything else in games/life, need to put time in to overcome.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Xenesis.6389

[Infusion.7149]

SMC defense still gives too much if you are on a dominant server, the repair should really only be credited for inner gate. Outer repair should not be giving any participation at all IMO especially when a failed defense still provides tickets and shards.

Post March 1 patch data (note I did not jot down all the garbage  tradable loot that comes along with it only the accountbound):

• gold t1 smc cap = shard + ticket
• silver t1 smc cap = shard + ticket
• gold t1 smc defense = ticket
• gold t1 smc defense with fail  = 2500wxp, 2 heavy loot bag, 2 bag of gear, 1 shard, 1 ticket
• SMC flipped failed defense silver = ticket + shard , 2 bags of gear , 2 heavy loot bags
• t0 smc cap silver = 1 ticket and shard
• t1 smc fail defense = 1 ticket and shard
• T0 smc bronze cap = ticket no shard
• T0 smc gold defense = ticket no shard

Prior Feb 28 patch data:

• defense t3 smc (gold) = shard
• T3 smc silver defense = shard

I am omitting what occurred between Feb 17 or so and Feb 28.  Note the tier that rewards a grandmaster mark shard always rewards a ticket.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Gehenna.3625]

4 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

It's no different than you first start the game in pve, you have nothing and takes a while to level, get your skills, traits, gear, then get to the expansions and get a ton of masteries, elite specs, tune yourself to take on high level fractals and raids, etc. Somehow people think they should just step into wvw and be a master of it from day one and earn it's top rewards in a couple weeks.

Also most of the wvw abilities are optional and not required, they don't put you at a combat disadvantage(guard stacks was the one that ever did), they give you bonuses for certain situations, half of which are tied to siege, most of which you wouldn't even operate very much unless you're camping them out, but also still not required.

The other quarter is like tied to npcs, and the other quarter is actual useful stuff like autoloot, extra supplies, mount and glider which you don't even need max points on. 1295 is a goal, not a requirement to function in wvw, lack of knowledge/experience is the real disadvantage in wvw, and like everything else in games/life, need to put time in to overcome.

It's completely different. In PvE you start at low level and the content around you is adapted to your level and gear. And you also don't have players trying to kill you. So no, it's not the same. 

Gear is also not required. Just cause it's optional doesn't mean it's not very useful. I will just not respond to your "arguments". It's better that way. Just know that I don't share your dismissive views on the WvW abilities.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Gehenna.3625

[Draygo.9473]

@TheGrimm.5624

I think were talking past each other.

 

I'm not saying repairing a wall is useless in all cases. I'm saying the priorities on the rewards are reversed, as things that are more useful more often are not incentivized by the reward system.

I doubt you disagree that destroying a catapult hitting a wall is more disruptive to the attack than putting 20 supply in a wall.

I doubt you disagree that disabling 3+ catapults hitting your wall is more disruptive to the attack than putting 20 supply in a wall.

Per point of supply repairing a wall or gate is most often the least valuable thing you can do.  Its a minor delaying action that has less worth than disabling a siege weapon actively hitting the thing you just repaired. On top of that repairing a wall already grants you wxp per point of supply used. And yes closing a wall after enemy siege is destroyed is useful, but I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about just repairing an already existing wall. (There is a fair argument to be made here about repairing a destroyed wall being more important than repairing an existing wall). 

 

Sometimes repairs can be necessary or even tactical (splitting an enemy zerg), but I think these are already rewarded well enough. If you manage to split an enemy zerg you should be getting kills from it and thus rewards. But I am not talking about the rare cases here, I'm talking about the common case, and the reward system should be built around the common case, not the exceptions. 

 

 

[Xenesis.6389]

47 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

It's completely different. In PvE you start at low level and the content around you is adapted to your level and gear. And you also don't have players trying to kill you. So no, it's not the same. 

Gear is also not required. Just cause it's optional doesn't mean it's not very useful. I will just not respond to your "arguments". It's better that way. Just know that I don't share your dismissive views on the WvW abilities.

No it's not different.

Just because pve mobs are adapted to your level, doesn't mean you can't be killed by them, it still comes down to how well you play, which again comes from knowledge and experience, which again comes from playing over time. There's a lot of bad players in pvp, and there's experienced ones that make the encounter like fighting an elite npc. Everything is a learning experience for a new player regardless of what area they are in.

And yes the wvw masteries are mostly optional, never claimed they weren't useful, but they're still optional to the point you may barely touch them in a day/week/month or even a year. I can load up on treb mastery but never use one and it wouldn't affect me one bit. Not leveling to 80 and unlocking extra skills or trait lines is way more detrimental to your game play. The core of the game is fighting, 90% of wvw game play comes down to player fighting, so obviously gear is "not optional" compared to masteries, which gives you no player combat advantage. The only real disadvantage you can advocate for is the mount, because of it's power creep on movement, you only need 1 point to activate it. The only mastery that I felt I ever really needed on two accounts was the autoloot, then glider, than mount, everything else was a bonus not a disadvantage.

[TheGrimm.5624]

7 hours ago, Draygo.9473 said:

@TheGrimm.5624

I think were talking past each other.

 

I'm not saying repairing a wall is useless in all cases. I'm saying the priorities on the rewards are reversed, as things that are more useful more often are not incentivized by the reward system.

I doubt you disagree that destroying a catapult hitting a wall is more disruptive to the attack than putting 20 supply in a wall.

I doubt you disagree that disabling 3+ catapults hitting your wall is more disruptive to the attack than putting 20 supply in a wall.

Per point of supply repairing a wall or gate is most often the least valuable thing you can do.  Its a minor delaying action that has less worth than disabling a siege weapon actively hitting the thing you just repaired. On top of that repairing a wall already grants you wxp per point of supply used. And yes closing a wall after enemy siege is destroyed is useful, but I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about just repairing an already existing wall. (There is a fair argument to be made here about repairing a destroyed wall being more important than repairing an existing wall). 

 

Sometimes repairs can be necessary or even tactical (splitting an enemy zerg), but I think these are already rewarded well enough. If you manage to split an enemy zerg you should be getting kills from it and thus rewards. But I am not talking about the rare cases here, I'm talking about the common case, and the reward system should be built around the common case, not the exceptions. 

 

 

🙂 Sorry I get long winded later in the night. It took a bit to get more reasons to defend and I see this one helping so trying to point out, as you have above on other items they should be adding too, that there is good and bad repairs. I agree taking out their siege is important as well as disabling. I think we are both hoping the end result will be tactical use of supply is more encouraged, but sometimes its all or nothing and would prefer not to go back to no one is stopping to supply. Mind you many above are talking SMC and I am worried about the impact everywhere else. I am hoping that they are still tuning and adjusting and reviewing yet so we can hope, not a bad start but could be better yet. 

[Malus.2184]

On 3/1/2023 at 4:11 AM, misterman.1530 said:

This is why WvW can't have nice things. Great rewards for a week or so, and then they saw people having fun and getting half decent stuff. They must have sat around their boardroom wringing their hands wonderlng how that possibly could have come to pass. 

Great for one side. It was more profitable to farm defense events on the objective than actually attacking the objective.'

GW2 is a game, and the objective of a game is for all participants to have fun. If only one side has fun then the objective is failed.

[blp.3489]

On 3/3/2023 at 11:43 AM, Xenesis.6389 said:

Somehow people think they should just step into wvw and be a master of it from day one and earn it's top rewards in a couple weeks.

...

lack of knowledge/experience is the real disadvantage in wvw, and like everything else in games/life, need to put time in to overcome.

If knowledge/experience is the real disadvantage, do they really need to add in the mastery disadvantages and loot disadvantages on top of that?

[Xenesis.6389]

2 hours ago, blp.3489 said:

If knowledge/experience is the real disadvantage, do they really need to add in the mastery disadvantages and loot disadvantages on top of that?

The problem is players looking at those things as disadvantages and not bonuses, like you expect to be at the same level as experienced players who have progressed. It would be like a level 1 walks into the game and expects to perform and earn like a level 80 right out of the box. Everyone started from the bottom, you play, you progress, you get more out of it.