Everything that is wrong with WvW in 2023

[Dawdler.8521]

4 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

I am sorry you hate your server so much. But I know server mates that don't have a guild, doesn't mean they won't get my back and I won't have theirs in a fight. I have also been on servers that are just guild pride that will run from a fight where they have more numbers but are afraid of e-death or that their guild will have been seen losing to smaller groups. Mileage will vary. The fact that server pride players are accepting WR doesn't mean they like it. But what comes, comes.

And if the favorite commanders of those servermates where to transfer and give them the option to follow free of charge, a vast majority would probably jump on it without hesitation.

[subversiontwo.7501]

10 hours ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

WvW is a Casual PvP format /.../

despite what most of the regular-forumites here believe

I don't think much of what you say here is controversial. I believe there is a general agreement that WvW is rather casual (or better-yet, open, as you put it) while player-events is where things can be more competetive, with agreed-upon rulesets for more direct competition (events, tournaments etc.). What seems to be argued about more so is the definition of what competetive implies. That's not too surprising either as there isn't a clear-cut answer outside of computer games either.

6 hours ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

(googles what sport Milan is....)

Oof, outed as an american 😛 . It's fine, you can admit that you knew about it beforehand. We know all about Patriots, cheating coaches and goats even though hand-egg is much less widespread in EU than football is in NA. It's fine not living under a rock 😉.

4 hours ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

And yes, all those things are part of the "rules" as they are. The problem is that they are way to broad or loose, and doesn't narrow the game down enough to really be very competitive.

Now in order for ANet to make WvW more "competitive", they would need to narrow in the "rules" for the mode, quite a good bit, to enforce more fairness and equality. The short version is that it wouldn't be WvW any longer.

This is a good example to bring up, but that's also where it feels like your argument goes off course. Whether it is Yatzhee or Milan, having the fundamental rulesets of the game being orderly is what makes the game (not just for viewership or other such things, but for there being a point to playing it). The number of players or number of dice is something quite fundamental. Yatzhee with different dice just isn't Yatzhee, even if it can have varying degrees of competition. Football is also a good example of how the term competition scales and span from simply having a ruleset that ends up with some kind of winner (as per Yatzhee) to something played professionally solely to win (as per Milan). Football is played in backyards, schoolyards, in PW teams and all the way up to varying degrees of adult professionality (in fact, many league systems go in like 10-ish tiers from amateur to semi-professional to professional in one long ladder, as seen in WvW - the beer league is connected to the same overarching system as the premier league). All of that goes to show that the definition is not without its problems and it is best kept close to its vest: We have WvW and somewhat emergent grades of eg., roams/raids -> skirmishes -> GvG/events. Yet at the same time events offer some kind of counter point to WvW: the whole, open (or casual) thing.

The only thing of larger importance though is that we kind of need both those things (which ArenaNet hopefully have all figured-out by now) and that the basic ruleset that makes the game requires teams to be somewhat balanced, matched-up, pitches and fields be properly painted while rules are both generally understood and sometimes officiated. If people don't understand the rules of football in the backyard, it will descend into anarchy and the game of it is lost. Even if you play in the schoolyard, PW or beer-league there are usually people who take it upon themselves to officiate: either officially or unofficially. The issues we have in WvW all stem all too much from ArenaNet not holding up their role of the agreement. The lines are not properly painted. The fundamental ruleset is not in place or followed. The occassional somewhat more official officiating needed is just not there to a degree that is generally accepted (the visibility/optics on infractions etc.). They have, quite fittingly, dropped the ball (or egg) on much of that. I think we can expect much more from them and that would establish the "game" (from team sizes, to winners and ladders) not change it to something unrecognisable. Much like football, it is fine for WvW to have leagues (perpetual, open, a span of competition included) and tournaments (finite, specific degrees of competition).

Like I said, it's a good example. It's just not an example that illustrates team-inequality to be naturally endemic, well. Even though they will never reach 11-a-side perfection ofc.

Edited November 2, 2023 by subversiontwo.7501

[subversiontwo.7501]

Also, we can't have this discussion and post videos to the thread without this excellent video getting posted 😁

 

[TheGrimm.5624]

8 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

And if the favorite commanders of those servermates where to transfer and give them the option to follow free of charge, a vast majority would probably jump on it without hesitation.

If a player has a favorite commander they would look to join that Comm's guild. I think this is where we might see the differences. WR will cover that by mass guilds that are either Guild zergs or Community guilds. I think where we differ is server pride doesn't care about a tag, they aid a server mate that is under attack. Someone they see day and day out is under attack so you lend a hand. Odds are good those servers have less tags versus more. Before declines those servers had more shared voice but as time passed on it became less so, but it doesn't mean they didn't see a server mate and lend a hand even without common voice. I think what you are running into is bandwagons jumping around, where as server pride is more people that transfer maybe once or never. Don't mix these groups.

[Dawdler.8521]

18 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

I think where we differ is server pride doesn't care about a tag, they aid a server mate that is under attack.

Completely different then. What does that have to do with the server? You wouldn’t help the same mate if the name of your server was different? That happens every link for linked servers. That’s not server pride.

What you are talking about is just recognizable players on the field.

What’s your definition for 100 players playing since 2012 and moving together from one server to another just so they can play day in and day out with the same friends then?

[Mabi black.1824]

6 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

What’s your definition for 100 players playing since 2012 and moving together from one server to another just so they can play day in and day out with the same friends then?

which is just an excuse. The reality is that they always want to chase the bandwagon of the winners, not friends, always be on the larger side. That's the truth, if it took you 10 years to find your community and your team. Of course, picking a team has consequences and responsibilities if you're involved enough. For that kind of player, it's better not to pick anything and keep jumping where you know you're going to win with the proper numbers.😉

[Dawdler.8521]

15 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

which is just an excuse. The reality is that they always want to chase the bandwagon of the winners, not friends, always be on the larger side. That's the truth, if it took you 10 years to find your community and your team. Of course, picking a team has consequences and responsibilities if you're involved enough. For that kind of player, it's better not to pick anything and keep jumping where you know you're going to win with the proper numbers.😉

Excuse for what? If server pride is willingness assist known players on your side then what does it matter which side it is or how long you’ve been there, as long as the one you are fighting next to is known?

Is there some kind of invisible counter, like I have been on my server with pride for 10 years but you my friend who I play with every day have only been here for 7 years? You have no pride, peasant!

Edited November 3, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Mabi black.1824]

15 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

having the fundamental rulesets of the game being orderly is what makes the game (not just for viewership or other such things, but for there being a point to playing it).

These are holy words. Our community should not get lost along the way, and keep these words in mind. Our comparisons here on the forum should follow this course. This game is large-scale PvP, it is based on competing servers/teams. We'll land on WR shortly. WR takes us to better balanced servers/teams that are transfer-proof and out of player manipulation (in theory and we'll get to test the final result) And then? What are the rules of the game? Is the reference still the right server? The competitive season is 8 weeks and then you start again, right? You can see all the problems in there, right?

[Mabi black.1824]

38 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Excuse for what? If server pride is willingness assist known players on your side then what does it matter which side it is or how long you’ve been there, as long as the one you are fighting next to is known?

Is there some kind of invisible counter, like I have been on my server with pride for 10 years but you my friend who I play with every day have only been here for 7 years? You have no pride, peasant!

No, of course, I don't mean that. After 15 days of your transfer, you are effectively a player of that server/team. There are no differences. What I was telling you is referring to the player (often group of players) you described. who jumps from one server to another every 2 months and keeps doing it, for years especially a few hours after relinks, because he is definitely chasing his dear friend. for years.

[Chaba.5410]

16 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

The competitive season is 8 weeks and then you start again, right? You can see all the problems in there, right?

Have you never played in any recreational sports league in real life that shuffles teams every season? It's very common. Your question about problems with that isn't very clear.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Mabi black.1824]

8 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Have you never played in any recreational sports league in real life that shuffles teams every season? It's very common.

yes I pretty much grew up until you were in my 20s with milk and sports. I am a lover of competition, especially sports.

If these are the rules of the new WVW I will have to accept them. 6 competitive seasons in 1 year seems like a lot to me. The risk you run is that they lose their meaning/prestige in a short period. as the player's feeling of being bounced left and right too quickly takes over. form your identity within that periodic server, team up with others, learn the habits of others and make the most of them in a common action, It should take a little longer. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

8 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

What you are talking about is just recognizable players on the field.

Server. These are the people you are used to seeing day in and day. You will group to fight with, you will group to joke with. You may emote, you might just see and go give a hand too. Server is like your local pub, its people that put your feet up with at the end of the day. Again mileage varies player to player so not all see it that way I agree. WR without Alliances will just scatter these players which lessens the games hold on these people and just encourages them to move on where as they might have been staying without game changes just due to the people they interact with daily. 

8 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

What’s your definition for 100 players playing since 2012 and moving together from one server to another just so they can play day in and day out with the same friends then?

Guild. If they aren't in the same guild then still would call them guild. Unless they guild up, these people will also be scattered by WR without Alliances.

So WR will help with over-stacked, agree. It will add random, agree. It will provide those guilds that are always looking to have max population more pools to recruit from. Same goes for any specialized guild looking for just those players that match their requirements.

After that though, in the end its just EotM 2.0.

[Mabi black.1824]

16 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

If people don't understand the rules of football in the backyard, it will descend into anarchy and the game of it is lost.

which is exactly where we are right now. When you cast WR, it's a good time to define the perimeter of the game rules. Fantasizing around the concept of rules, even when we have better distributed and balanced servers, I would like to see a ''flow coefficient'' on the scoreboard. You are able to read the streams of all the servers (even approximately) allowing your players to be able to see them. We use/exploit the reading of the streams to filter our victory points so as to obtain an unquestionably purified score in terms of quantity, measuring the quality much better (where quality in our weekly matches still means many things)

[Mabi black.1824]

5 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

After that though, in the end its just EotM 2.0.

And that's what we all want to avoid, and that's why we're looking for some sort of confrontation/reasoning with the development guys.

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

WR without Alliances will just scatter these players

WR with or without alliances will make absolutely no difference for those players as they are the type that have all 5 guilds filled and absolutely refuse to leave any of them or the ones that absolutely refuse to join any guild period. An alliance would *require* guild membership to begin with hence WR going live without it doesnt actually mean anything particular on how they scatter. If they scatter without alliances, they scatter with alliances too. 

But yes I suppose describing a server as a pub is accurate. Completely hammered regulars refusing to leave at closing time because they think the pub belong to them.

[kash.9213]

5 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Server. These are the people you are used to seeing day in and day. You will group to fight with, you will group to joke with. You may emote, you might just see and go give a hand too. Server is like your local pub, its people that put your feet up with at the end of the day. Again mileage varies player to player so not all see it that way I agree. WR without Alliances will just scatter these players which lessens the games hold on these people and just encourages them to move on where as they might have been staying without game changes just due to the people they interact with daily. 

Guild. If they aren't in the same guild then still would call them guild. Unless they guild up, these people will also be scattered by WR without Alliances.

So WR will help with over-stacked, agree. It will add random, agree. It will provide those guilds that are always looking to have max population more pools to recruit from. Same goes for any specialized guild looking for just those players that match their requirements.

After that though, in the end its just EotM 2.0.

Aside from just liking the other pugs and guilds on our server, the way they all move and their decision making is part of my muscle memory. You feel that in fights, and you can measure what you can do and what they can and will do. Some of our links are more in tune with our beat than others but when they're not and you don't have a good gauge on your team when you make a move or a feint or whatever else can be tragic. 

You can get used to new players and settings, but not if that shuffles on an inapplicable algorithm too frequently. Have to hope a match duration can cover all of the growing pains. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by kash.9213

[Junkpile.7439]

Yes casual pvp mode that some people take too seriously. This try harding ruins  game. Go EotM arena or something if you wanna boon blob.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Junkpile.7439

[TheGrimm.5624]

12 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

Aside from just liking the other pugs and guilds on our server, the way they all move and their decision making is part of my muscle memory. You feel that in fights, and you can measure what you can do and what they can and will do. Some of our links are more in tune with our beat than others but when they're not and you don't have a good gauge on your team when you make a move or a feint or whatever else can be tragic. 

You can get used to new players and settings, but not if that shuffles on an inapplicable algorithm too frequently. Have to hope a match duration can cover all of the growing pains. 

Well put. So people that don't jump servers learn what other guilds might or might not do. They see and learn how non-guilded players might behave. They see and learn what to expect and might adjust to their tactics to match that. They get to know the players they can expect to back them up and which might run. They see patterns in how people might move and can adapt to it. They don't need to be guilded or grouped to understand the flow of the fight that might happen since they see these players day in and day out and can work together. So I agree with previous statements that these are not guilded players, nor the older server communities but they are what we have in current servers and though they are not the older communities they are still the pub style server pride peeps we have now. WR is coming I agree, but if you don't mind, don't bash the server pride peeps we have left that might accept WR but still are trying to see how the new model might encourage them to think more in server terms versus personal e-death.

Kash, this was more using your post as a stepping stone to other replies versus a counterpoint, I hope you see.

[TheGrimm.5624]

14 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

But yes I suppose describing a server as a pub is accurate. Completely hammered regulars refusing to leave at closing time because they think the pub belong to them.

Considering banter, emotes, jokes, former banter, fighting outnumbers, friends, zerg baiting, zerg pulling and overall silliness with or without drinks. Its a fair ball. The list to blame is way to long in this game and from Warhammer Online peeps and forum Warhammer forum peeps. We will all rue the day. Waaagh, just sayin. 🙂 Doesn't mean you aren't all awesome. Good hunting and happy reset to you all! May your bags be full!

Edited November 4, 2023 by TheGrimm.5624

[Daredevil.2745]

Remove scoring system = all problems solved. Until it is done - everything is wrong. While there is a scoring system - it is a competetive pvp and developers have no competence in any kind of pvp.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Daredevil.2745

[Mabi black.1824]

17 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

But yes I suppose describing a server as a pub is accurate. Completely hammered regulars refusing to leave at closing time because they think the pub belong to them.

I don't understand why you have to find something wrong about the feelings of aggregation / community / friendship. I had a dear friend who went to school together. then as adults he had a pub and we found ourselves there among friends, real friends and yes, the pub closed and we stayed inside because we were happy together, among friends.

that stupid closing times sign didn't apply to people like us. It was a very fun, social time in my life, and I consider myself lucky for that.😉

[Dawdler.8521]

23 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

I don't understand why you have to find something wrong about the feelings of aggregation / community / friendship. I had a dear friend who went to school together. then as adults he had a pub and we found ourselves there among friends, real friends and yes, the pub closed and we stayed inside because we were happy together, among friends.

Sounds like a trapped in a pub forever horror story

[joneirikb.7506]

On 11/2/2023 at 11:42 PM, subversiontwo.7501 said:

I don't think much of what you say here is controversial. I believe there is a general agreement that WvW is rather casual (or better-yet, open, as you put it) while player-events is where things can be more competetive, with agreed-upon rulesets for more direct competition (events, tournaments etc.). What seems to be argued about more so is the definition of what competetive implies. That's not too surprising either as there isn't a clear-cut answer outside of computer games either.

Oof, outed as an american 😛 . It's fine, you can admit that you knew about it beforehand. We know all about Patriots, cheating coaches and goats even though hand-egg is much less widespread in EU than football is in NA. It's fine not living under a rock 😉.

This is a good example to bring up, but that's also where it feels like your argument goes off course. Whether it is Yatzhee or Milan, having the fundamental rulesets of the game being orderly is what makes the game (not just for viewership or other such things, but for there being a point to playing it). The number of players or number of dice is something quite fundamental. Yatzhee with different dice just isn't Yatzhee, even if it can have varying degrees of competition. Football is also a good example of how the term competition scales and span from simply having a ruleset that ends up with some kind of winner (as per Yatzhee) to something played professionally solely to win (as per Milan). Football is played in backyards, schoolyards, in PW teams and all the way up to varying degrees of adult professionality (in fact, many league systems go in like 10-ish tiers from amateur to semi-professional to professional in one long ladder, as seen in WvW - the beer league is connected to the same overarching system as the premier league). All of that goes to show that the definition is not without its problems and it is best kept close to its vest: We have WvW and somewhat emergent grades of eg., roams/raids -> skirmishes -> GvG/events. Yet at the same time events offer some kind of counter point to WvW: the whole, open (or casual) thing.

The only thing of larger importance though is that we kind of need both those things (which ArenaNet hopefully have all figured-out by now) and that the basic ruleset that makes the game requires teams to be somewhat balanced, matched-up, pitches and fields be properly painted while rules are both generally understood and sometimes officiated. If people don't understand the rules of football in the backyard, it will descend into anarchy and the game of it is lost. Even if you play in the schoolyard, PW or beer-league there are usually people who take it upon themselves to officiate: either officially or unofficially. The issues we have in WvW all stem all too much from ArenaNet not holding up their role of the agreement. The lines are not properly painted. The fundamental ruleset is not in place or followed. The occassional somewhat more official officiating needed is just not there to a degree that is generally accepted (the visibility/optics on infractions etc.). They have, quite fittingly, dropped the ball (or egg) on much of that. I think we can expect much more from them and that would establish the "game" (from team sizes, to winners and ladders) not change it to something unrecognisable. Much like football, it is fine for WvW to have leagues (perpetual, open, a span of competition included) and tournaments (finite, specific degrees of competition).

Like I said, it's a good example. It's just not an example that illustrates team-inequality to be naturally endemic, well. Even though they will never reach 11-a-side perfection ofc.

Scale:

Just like all good competitive games scales well from beginners to professionals, like Chess and Soccer etc. I think the way ANet envisioned the "scale" of gw2 competition is actually spanning modes, with players starting in PvE, go into WvW to get a taste for it, and end up in sPvP for when they want real competition. Clearly this hasn't worked as they intended.

In that perspective, I think it makes sense for them to not worry too much about putting in a lot of "competitive rules" for WvW, and you could say it's doing its job (Though, sPvP probably isn't). This also begs the question if EotM does a better or worse job than WvW in term of filling that middle spot/grade of competition? Personally I'm not sure.

----

Arbitration:

Some times I wonder if not one of the main advantages for ANet to push toward WR, is that they can off-load more of the arbitration/officiating to the player-base. Let players manage themselves more, so they don't have to put as much manpower on it? Granted there will still be things they need to arbite on, and still haven't done much of for years anyway. So not like it would solve everything. But an interesting thought regarding what they might hope for.

For WvW though, it's an interesting problem, if they don't arbite they effectively allow. Which means at this point that nearly every glitch or hack could be considered "allowed", since they never go public and condemn or speak against it, nor do they visibly penalise or ban players. Even when they do ban players for hacks etc, the player-base doesn't see it, so they can't know. Effectively, they're basing their arbitration not as a public-court, but as a behind-the-scenes assassinations.

Or you could see it as them wanting WvW to be as free-form and open as possible, a sandbox where players make their own fun however they see fit, even at the cost of others fun. But personally I doubt it, it goes too much against their general policies of going ape-kitten at anyone doing anything negative toward other players.

But to wrap this back to the "Competitive rules": Even if they did arbite the rules properly, there isn't really "good enough" rules to arbite in terms of making anything "skill based competitive" out of the mode. Again, player agreed rules have been the only thing to create anything "skill based competitive" in the mode.

----

Sports:

Sorry, I'm assuming hand-egg is American Football? I just don't know practically any sport-team names, I would have to google up any sport references as I'm entirely blank in that area.

----

Definition of Competition:

I really wish someone would coin some good words for this, as it's getting really difficult to talk about when language just doesn't feel nuanced enough to properly describe it.

"Skill based competition"? And what would the opposite or variations be?

Personally I'm leaning toward just analysing down what is the biggest reason/cause for victory per game/mode and just call it by that. So WvW being won mostly by population+coverage, I'd call it "population/coverage competition". Just as Yathzee would be "random competition" since it relies on dice, Chess would be "strategy competition", and Street Fighter would be "skill competition".

----

I keep trying to rewrite to make these posts shorter, and they just get longer and longer...

[Mabi black.1824]

On 11/5/2023 at 9:55 AM, joneirikb.7506 said:

n that perspective, I think it makes sense for them to not worry too much about putting in a lot of "competitive rules" for WvW

But we don't want a lot of extra rules in WVW. If your reasoning is to close inside a WVW enclosure because it is similar to SPVP, because it is the only way to have a precise and perfect competition. no thanks, that's not what I want. I asked to make transparent the flow parameter (hours played) that Anet already has available, and use it to filter our victory points. We update our scoreboard and give WVW players an extra score. with which you can clearly see a new server ranking defined better by quality than quantity. Finished nothing so complicated. Players continue to participate in WVW in any way they like to have fun as they see fit. At the end of the week we will have an extra reference available for all servers. Then, once it's available and we see how it works with that new score, we come up with whatever you want to stimulate participation and congrronto of large-scale PvP.

What is the reason for denying this? and don't reply to me that's a lot of programming work for the development team please.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Mabi black.1824

[joneirikb.7506]

55 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

But we don't want a lot of extra rules in WVW. If your reasoning is to close inside a WVW enclosure because it is similar to SPVP, because it is the only way to have a precise and perfect competition. no thanks, that's not what I want. I asked to make transparent the flow parameter (hours played) that Anet already has available, and use it to filter our victory points. We update our scoreboard and give WVW players an extra score. with which you can clearly see a new server ranking defined better by quality than quantity. Finished nothing so complicated. Players continue to participate in WVW in any way they like to have fun as they see fit. At the end of the week we will have an extra reference available for all servers. Then, once it's available and we see how it works with that new score, we come up with whatever you want to stimulate participation and congrronto of large-scale PvP.

What is the reason for denying this? and don't reply to me that's a lot of programming work for the development team please.

You're changing the topic of discussion. I've been talking about WvW and competitiveness.

Your idea of making an extra "metric" was from one of your threads, and then you tried to bring it into this one.

(edited away comments that was unimportant to this topic, and posted them in your coefficient thread instead)

Edited November 6, 2023 by joneirikb.7506
Brevity, for once!