Perma stealth on thiefs is wrong in WvW. Offers no counterplay.

[Morena.9312]

4 minutes ago, Aragoc.2596 said:

yes, you right in perfect case that thief fighting without kiting or blink away from you reveal 6s might be enough to kill, but i didn't see any thief that stand still and 'oh i got reveal then i'll use my sword to fight with you'. 

the problem is yeah there are many skill that can reveal but its just nothing, thief also has many many defense layer like dodge (2 for core+de, 3 for dd and even combine with endu food), blink (sb, sword, utility), blind (gun and many skill and trait), invul (elite dagger storm) and even remove reveal (de) and most of them is 0 cd and this is not trade off for 'oh i bring defensive skill so i might not do high damage' because its still doing high damage.

for example, today i deal with DE that can be blink almost unlimit by sword+util and blink up and down and stealth repeatly by just gun 5 and dagger 2 and even run away and out of combat and change build to another build and back to fight and run away and do this thing repeatly,  so tell me what are you suggest in this case, because i think even i bring all utility reveal skill it still noting to deal with him.

 You guys write it so that only thief has all of this? When you use a Zerg Build or only copypaste them and don't build for it, then it is your fault. Why does alot of folks still have this mentality that they can beat everything in the game with 1 build? Thief is one of the least played classes in the game, why is that? When it would be sooo scary OP like you want to show it here ......then why not everyone is hopping on it like the scrapper tsunami lately in the pvp?

[solemn.9670]

2 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

They have as many slots to decide how to fill as you do. 

And I don't fill mine with useless reveals that won't help me whatsoever vs the majority of opponents, is my point, if that isn't clear after three posts 😂

[Chips.7968]

7 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

(recent)

Thief Profession either need to be reworked from the ground up or to be completely removed from the game, for the health of the game and for the well being of the community.

 

Name one game company would allow a Profession to represent Toxicity for their gaming culture for 10 years+?

 

NONE!!

 

(Side note)

 

For 10 Years+ including this day, Thief Profession and  Stealth, are intentionally continually allowed to create and spread Toxicity to Guild Wars 2 Gaming Culture. 

 

Forcing the Guild Wars 2 community to leave and to quit the game and moving on and trying on, other gaming company culture who creates a open honest communication with their player base/community, whose reputation is built on trust, who builds a bridge in all game modes to enjoy and to feel comfortable with each other, who deeply understand their player base/ community  experiences and their behaviors firsthand.....resulting into action, whose mission in making them matter.

 

Lastly, moving on and trying on, other game company whose vision stand by their words

So wait, you post a single build, and determine that due to this the entire CLASS should be removed from the game. Despite all the other weapon sets available, all the traits available, all the utilities available. You don't identify *those* as the issue, you're saying it's the fundamental CLASS that's the problem.

So... stealth isn't the problem then. Just the class in general.

[kash.9213]

31 minutes ago, solemn.9670 said:

And I don't fill mine with useless reveals that won't help me whatsoever vs the majority of opponents, is my point, if that isn't clear after three posts 😂

After three posts, we should have a solid idea of what build choices mean. 

I wouldn't fill up on reveals either, you can usually see stealth signs or sounds on the ground or horizon by panning camera a lot anyway and if they set up a good opener then it's more about closing distance on me from an awkward angle fast then being unseen, even Deadeye is more of a Backstab threat if I feel someone stealthing in the area since Death's Judgment isn't reliable. 

I wish I had more room for condi cleans and other different stuff but I also have to think about trying to close out a kill when other people are likely as stealthed, mobile, and harder hitting than I am and I have to think about stuff like Stun Breaks also, because using movement and space to not be touched is my main mitigation where things like Stability and other stat mitigation is kind of lacking. 

I wouldn't care if there were some proximity fade in-and-out opacity changes to stealthed players as long as the stealth modifiers and stealth attacks still activated. It would still allow stealth for masked map travel and burst stealth for groups. It would probably also force more creative approaches or more forethought about going in and out a lot. 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by kash.9213

[Burnfall.9573]

1 hour ago, Chips.7968 said:

So wait, you post a single build, and determine that due to this the entire CLASS should be removed from the game. Despite all the other weapon sets available, all the traits available, all the utilities available. You don't identify *those* as the issue, you're saying it's the fundamental CLASS that's the problem.

So... stealth isn't the problem then. Just the class in general.

Firsthand, for the past 10 years; Thief Profession remain the only least nerfed Profession in the game. Thief Profession is the only Profession who is given Privileges to dictate, exploit their mechanics/skills, without none to little consequences.

 

With the addition of Shadow Portal, secures Thief Profession Privilege in the game.

 

Resulting in Stealth helping preventing Thief Profession from struggling in fights and guaranteeing them free results,

 

What other Professions are given this Privilege with additional Privilege to secure wins? 

 

None Other Than Thief Profession!!!!

Edited March 20, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[TheGrimm.5624]

4 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

https://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta

8 year old article? You know how many changes have occurred since then? This even predates the wet noodle patch.  Why use that when trying to make a point? If you want to call out stealth, sure ok, want point out skills that you consider OP, ok. But when you use meme videos that show glass versus glass that doesn't help the discussion. We already talked about don't balance for glass on glass. Its the same as saying remove a core class mechanic because someone has all their keys macro'd and are ready to trigger a rotation. That's not the same as all the other thief players out there. Do I like the jump away reset the fight mechanic, no. So I have builds for it if needed and can toon hop. Remember they also point out they don't even balance sPvP for 1v1. In WvW there is no way to do that but you can tune skills and abilities that go too far. So the answer to the glass on glass build was, where was the rest of it where the DH's battle buddy came in to say oh hai! Samething goes for the counter abilities, think they are underperforming, ask for them to be bolstered and the how/why of it. Might get better luck that way. Good hunting!

 

 

[Burial.1958]

1 hour ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Firsthand, for the past 10 years; Thief Profession remain the only least nerfed Profession in the game.

 Wait what? Are you serious? 🙄 Maybe you should go read the patch history of thief first before you straight posting a lie here.

[Burial.1958]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

8 year old article?

 

Copium

[Burnfall.9573]

18 minutes ago, Burial.1958 said:

 Wait what? Are you serious? 🙄 Maybe you should go read the patch history of thief first before you straight posting a lie here.

Thief Professions are the least nerfed Profession in the game

[Burial.1958]

2 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Thief Professions are the least nerfed Profession in the game

 No it is not, where do you get this?  😏

[senftube.6081]

Give it up Yuber. This guy is completly delusional. Uses Articles from 8 years ago as argument and think that the thief got no nerfes/reworks. 🤡 He is in big need of copium.

[Burnfall.9573]

2 minutes ago, Yunari.9065 said:

Give it up Yuber. This guy is completly delusional. Uses Articles from 8 years ago as argument and think that the thief got no nerfes/reworks. 🤡 He is in big need of copium.

I never once said that. Delusion you say? Than what is the reality from the article?

 

Please! speak the Truth

Edited March 20, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[senftube.6081]

2 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

I never once said that

 

[Burnfall.9573]

1 minute ago, Yunari.9065 said:

 

"The Truth Sound Like Hate To Those Who Hate The Truth"

Edited March 20, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[senftube.6081]

18 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

I never once said that. Delusion you say? Than what is the reality from the article?

 

Please! speak the Truth

 Lol nice editing. Must be great for the peoples who read this thread. xD

 

You used this https://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta

 

CAN YOU SEE THE YEAR WHEN IT WAS WROTE? 2015 LUL

 

PS: Most thiefs don't use full zerk anymore. Go look at Guildjen or any proper Build Site beefore you acuse a whole playerbase & check that first.

AND

Stop editing and delete your postings and spread lies and old stuff for real. 😧

 

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Yunari.9065

[Burnfall.9573]

20 minutes ago, Yunari.9065 said:

 Lol nice editing. Must be great for the peoples who read this thread. xD

 

You used this https://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/guild-wars-2-are-thieves-and-mesmer-s-the-cause-of-the-meta

 

CAN YOU SEE THE YEAR WHEN IT WAS WROTE? 2015 LUL

 

PS: Most thiefs don't use full zerk anymore. Go look at Guildjen or any proper Build Site beefore you acuse a whole playerbase & check that first.

AND

Stop editing and delete your postings and spread lies and old stuff for real. 😧

 

 

I am not deleting, I'm adding. You didn't answer my question. What is the Reality/Real and Truth about the article?

 

Do you remember this post created by honest Thief Profession players? 

 

I Do!!

 

If not, i encourage you to take a look and read on what Thief Profession players think about their Professions and how they would change it to make it healthy and competitive for other Profession players

 

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Nerf-Wish-list

by ZeroDay

 

"So, a lot of people come to the thief forums to open up a topic on a particular skill/thing they want nerfed. So I thought I would create a post were you can post what you want nerfed and why. For instance, say I wanted to nerf their crafting speeds, it would be the following post:

What: Thief crafting speeds.
Why: It’s unfair they craft faster when in stealth.
Suggestion: (optional) Take their crafting time… and double it!
Thread: (optional) http://imgur.com/pAiF9Rk

So yeah, in all seriousness, take it away!
Thieves stay out of the way, as to not cause flame wars (unless you’re suggesting a nerf)… ugh….

Feel free to link to other posts, and duke it out there… this should mainly be just a what-and-why….

(Edited:
Added the optional “Suggestion” and “Thread” headings to the template.)

 

You Are Welcome!!

Edited March 20, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Burial.1958]

14 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

I am not deleting, I'm adding. You didn't answer my question. What is the Reality/Real and Truth about the article?

 

Do you remember this post created by honest Thief Profession players? 

 

I Do!!

 

If not, i encourage you to take a look and read on what Thief Profession players think about their Professions and how they would change it to make it healthy and competitive for other Profession players

 

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Nerf-Wish-list

by ZeroDay

 

"So, a lot of people come to the thief forums to open up a topic on a particular skill/thing they want nerfed. So I thought I would create a post were you can post what you want nerfed and why. For instance, say I wanted to nerf their crafting speeds, it would be the following post:

What: Thief crafting speeds.
Why: It’s unfair they craft faster when in stealth.
Suggestion: (optional) Take their crafting time… and double it!
Thread: (optional) http://imgur.com/pAiF9Rk

So yeah, in all seriousness, take it away!
Thieves stay out of the way, as to not cause flame wars (unless you’re suggesting a nerf)… ugh….

Feel free to link to other posts, and duke it out there… this should mainly be just a what-and-why….

(Edited:
Added the optional “Suggestion” and “Thread” headings to the template.)

 

You Are Welcome!!

 

Okei now we are in 2013. 2013 when HoT wasn't even realesed. For real @Burnfall.9573 Stop it now.

[Burnfall.9573]

1 minute ago, Burial.1958 said:

 

Okei now we are in 2013. 2013 when HoT wasn't even realesed. For real @Burnfall.9573 Stop it now.

Time changes nothing Burial. I am not intrigue by Time, Years or Dates. I start, look and begin at the core root of a problem to find the solution.

 

Thief Profession core root design is to be blamed

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Yunari.9065 said:

 

Thanks by the way, I am old so I went copium as in the latin for plenty or copius for more. 🙂 lol. Makes more sense now.

[cyberzombie.7348]

6 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

And I don't fill mine with useless reveals that won't help me whatsoever vs the majority of opponents, is my point, if that isn't clear after three posts 😂

Then Idk what else to suggest since slotting a reveal isn't your fancy, and I've explained several times on this thread the tricks and methods to flush out stealth players that aren't reveals.

Edit: Plus to me specing into countering stealth is no different than bringing more cleanses if i see a mallyx revenant, or boon rips if i see a firebrandt. I have several builds to accomplish several task which only takes 2 clicks to readjust.

Edited March 21, 2023 by cyberzombie.7348

[andrewlcl.8176]

8 hours ago, Aragoc.2596 said:

yes, you right in perfect case that thief fighting without kiting or blink away from you reveal 6s might be enough to kill, but i didn't see any thief that stand still and 'oh i got reveal then i'll use my sword to fight with you'. 

the problem is yeah there are many skill that can reveal but its just nothing, thief also has many many defense layer like dodge (2 for core+de, 3 for dd and even combine with endu food), blink (sb, sword, utility), blind (gun and many skill and trait), invul (elite dagger storm) and even remove reveal (de) and most of them is 0 cd and this is not trade off for 'oh i bring defensive skill so i might not do high damage' because its still doing high damage.

for example, today i deal with DE that can be blink almost unlimit by sword+util and blink up and down and stealth repeatly by just gun 5 and dagger 2 and even run away and out of combat and change build to another build and back to fight and run away and do this thing repeatly,  so tell me what are you suggest in this case, because i think even i bring all utility reveal skill it still noting to deal with him.

Where is all this crap coming from?

 

Dagger Storm isn't an invul frame, it's an evade frame that is susceptible to things like ele Shocking Aura, Static Field, guardian wards and Dragon Maw, warri Magebane Tether, amongst other things. And you still take condi damage while in Dagger Storm. 

 

DE can no longer remove revealed and its been that way for maybe a month now. 

 

Thief wep skills are on 0 CD because they run on an initiative system, which comes with its own pros and cons. It's not as if thief gets a free pass and presses pistol 5 repeatedly, and trololol. 

 

Oh, and you fought a DE that uses mainhand sword on one wep swap, and dagger/pistol on the other? A DE that doesn't use a rifle at all? Pray tell. 

 

BTW, while the thief is doing that "unlimit" blink with sword mainhand, it probably isn't doing any damage when it's not in melee range, plus burning all its initiative just porting. Sword/dagger thief needs some skill to play, most fellas run something more facerolly now. 

 

Also, running away to reset, then changing build templates and engaging again, is nothing new in WvW. Many other classes do the same. It's a joke to complain about that in WvW. 

[Cyninja.2954]

11 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Time changes nothing Burial. I am not intrigue by Time, Years or Dates. I start, look and begin at the core root of a problem to find the solution.

 

Thief Profession core root design is to be blamed

Burnfall, you've been on an anti thief crusade for years by now. At this point, this is just sad.

The worst part is, you are actually making reasonable concerns with the class useless because players simply point to your ridiculous vendetta to discredit any reasonable criticism.

Posting many year old articles, videos or far outdated information does nothing in regards to addressing any of the issues the class/game faces today. What it does do is provide a great way to get off topic and bury any constructive discourse.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Burnfall.9573]

55 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Burnfall, you've been on an anti thief crusade for years by now. At this point, this is just sad.

The worst part is, you are actually making reasonable concerns with the class useless because players simply point to your ridiculous vendetta to discredit any reasonable criticism.

Posting many year old articles, videos or far outdated information does nothing in regards to addressing any of the issues the class/game faces today. What it does do is provide a great way to get off topic and bury any constructive discourse.

Cyninja, if you have been following me...i have posted current and recent postings...it's all there, i have nothing to hide and you can quote me.

 

I have a question for you, since 10 Years+ History of Thief Profession Toxicity of using Perma-Stealth to gain Privilege in WvW  is "constructive discourse" and is "outdated"...

 

Why 10 Years later and currently, this issue is still being brought up today with Hard Evidences and  Hard Truths from all Profession players alike including Thief Profession main players?

 

How much more amount of evidences do you need to dismiss the Truth that Thief Profession has 10 Years History of creating a Toxic experience for all Profession players and forcing them to not play the game the way they want?

 

To force them to either play Toxic builds in hope to defeat the Thief Profession or to play bunker builds in hopes to not die?

 

I posted a recent posting from Anet Guild Wars 2 website: Play Your Way. In addition to 'Be Who You Want To Be"

 

Is this True especially when dealing with Thief Profession for 10 Years+?

 

Is this True for the many Profession players who left, quit and trying other companies when dealing with Thief Profession?

 

Do you the know how many Profession players left, quit the game because of Thief Profession Perma-Stealth?

 

Do you know in Healthy Competitive Enjoyable Games; Stealth has drawbacks and Counterplay?

 

So if 10 Years+ of Guild Wars 2 History are  "outdated", " constructive discourse", why are we here discussing this issue?

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Cyninja, if you have been following me...i have posted current and recent postings...it's all there, i have nothing to hide and you can quote me.

 

I have a question for you, since 10 Years+ History of Thief Profession Toxicity of using Perma-Stealth to gain Privilege in WvW  is "constructive discourse" and is "outdated"...

 

Why 10 Years later and currently, this issue is still being brought up today with Hard Evidences and  Hard Truths from all Profession players alike including Thief Profession main players?

 

How much more amount of evidences do you need to dismiss the Truth that Thief Profession has 10 Years History of creating a Toxic experience for all Profession players and forcing them to not play the game the way they want?

 

To force them to either play Toxic builds in hope to defeat the Thief Profession or to play bunker builds in hopes to not die?

 

I posted a recent posting from Anet Guild Wars 2 website: Play Your Way. In addition to 'Be Who You Want To Be"

 

Is this True especially when dealing with Thief Profession for 10 Years+?

 

Is this True for the many Profession players who left, quit and trying other companies when dealing with Thief Profession?

 

Do you the know how many Profession players left, quit the game because of Thief Profession Perma-Stealth?

 

Do you know in Healthy Competitive Enjoyable Games; Stealth has drawbacks and Counterplay?

 

So if 10 Years+ of Guild Wars 2 History are  "outdated", " constructive discourse", why are we here discussing this issue?

 

You are painting a large cavas here with a ton of nonsense words inbetween.

 

Stealth has been an issue over the years, and these issues where not always the same or similar. Permastealth isself has been very different over the years (with serious gamechangers being deadeye and revealed removal for long periods) especially now with recent nerfs (which once again removed reveaked removal), as has counterplay (which was far less existant before revealed was added). To pretend this was/is all the same does not paint a picture of someone who understands the balance at hand.

 

If your goal is to have a complete rework of stealth (and thus the thief class and to some extent mesmer) you'd be far more successful making a strong argument around that, instead of these constant posts devoid of any value which deal with issues the scope of a complete rework (at best given xou like to stay vague and reference years old "data"). Given chances for a complete rework to even happen are near nonexistant, many here I believe would rather have some actually possible adjustments which might make it into the game.

 

Again, you are providing a large disservice to this discussion by your half-hearted and overly simplfied (or not grounded in current gameplay) arguments.

Unless of course that is your goal to begin with. Create so much confusion and distribute nonsense that no proper arguments can be found. In which case, cudos for preventing meaningful changes to stealth in this game.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Burnfall.9573]

29 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

You are painting a large cavas here with a ton of nonsense words inbetween.

 

Stealth has been an issue over the years, and these issues where not always the same or similar. Permastealth isself has been very different over the years (with serious gamechangers being deadeye and revealed removal for long periods) especially now with recent nerfs (which once again removed reveaked removal), as has counterplay (which was far less existant before revealed as added). To pretend this was/is all the same does not paint a picute of someone who understands the balance at hand.

 

If your goal is to have a complete rework of stealth (and thus the thief class) you'd be far more successful making a strong argument around that, instead of these constant posts devoid of any value which deal with issues outside in scope of a complete rework. Given chances for a complete rework to even happen are near nonexistant, many here I believe would rather have some actually possible adjustments which might make it into the game.

 

Again, you are providing a large disservice to this discussion by your half-hearted and overly simplfied (or not grounded in current gameplay) arguments.

Unless of course that is your goal to begin with. Create so much confusion and distribute nonsense that no proper arguments can be found. In which case, cudos for preventing meaningful changes to stealth in this game.

you accuse me of editing and you are editing. Did you read my post of Thief Nerf Wish List by Thief Profession Players on their forum?

 

Those are suggestions and constructive discussions  by Thief Profession main players themselves who believes that their Profession especially Stealth Mechanic are indeed Toxic for the health of the game including having and leaving a negative experience with dealing with other Professions.

 

Here is a last post of (i don't know why it is not moved to Thief Profession forum) Thief Profession nerf list.

 

Throughout the years, i have met many Thief Profession players and are friends with them till this day who strongly believe that their Profession especially Stealth; is too Atrocious for the health of the game and offers too many Privileges/Forgiving for the Thief Profession Player, to not make mistakes.

 

This issue is not against Thief Profession Players but Anet who continues to refuse to make Stealth healthy and competitive.

 

For marketing Guild Wars 2 as competitive, fun, enjoyable, learning and play it your way.

 

What is there to learn when Toxicity is the core root of builds, Profession designs, skills, mechanics and playstyle?

 

What is there to learn when Toxicity is the driving element for the declining of the population?

 

What is there to learn when Profession Players are forced Fight Toxicity with Toxicity?

 

What is there to learn when Thief Profession Main Players are continually saying that their Profession gains unfair Privilege with Stealth?

 

Who is listening to Thief Profession Main Players?