Perma stealth on thiefs is wrong in WvW. Offers no counterplay.

[solemn.9670]

Regarding actual suggestions, I will give two that I think would be fun from both a thief perspective and those fighting a thief (or at least better)

1. Make stealth duration slightly longer (WAIT keep reading lol) but make stealth similar to games like halo 3 where it's more translucent, and a well trained eye can still see them distorting light around them. Easy to see in close range, harder to see when they're far away.

2. (Possibly make stealth duration much, much longer and:) Make stealth only possible outside of combat, so players can have an advantage roaming around the maps invisibly but don't have this stupidly powerful advantage during actual meaningful combat. More of a gimmick, as it probably should've been to begin with.

[Jski.6180]

The issues with stealth is not stealth it self but the added effect you can get during stealth. Having clears and heals as well as super speed and (stab?) brakes the effect of the ability to hid from players view and targets skills. It would be like having an when under an barrier effect your hp heals and you clear but that barrier is only broken when you chose to attk.

Now getting aggsive boons during stealth is fine even being able to land stronger hits when coming out of stealth is fine too. You can also make "when you just come out of stealth" have heals and clears super speed (stab?) is ok as well.

Stealth is too much of an reset when it should be more of an get in tool or build up for an burst hit.

[stormemperor.3745]

You must prove your strength to Thief by becoming the Thief! I can stealth you for a short time. Use it to move those posts!

[Burial.1958]

1 hour ago, Gorani.7205 said:

• Problem: Thief players, after all theses years complaining that Sentries and Watchtower ruin their play style, because with those on the map, they have to play like everyone else (possibility to be seen) or actually not run close to those.

 

1: Show me a video how you play a D/P or deadeye without stealth.

2. No other class has an stationary Debuff in the game. Where is the debuff for Invul etc? The problem is that i can't fight offensivly around towers that good because my defensive and offensive ability is debuffed by NPC or Watchtowers. So a class with abysmal zerg play is even more weak, when your team is attacking a enemy tower. Makes no sense. For me sentries are okay but the watchtowers are stupid af.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Burial.1958

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Gorani.7205 said:

Sorry, not reading 7 pages. But if you like the following list of my thoughts (in no particular order) about "stealth"+"thief"+"WvW", feel free to read:

• Problem: Thieves think that Stealth is their profession mechanic and the need to defend it at all cost. No, Steal is their profession mechanic.
• Problem: Large playing field (compared to PvP) allows Thieves, compared to other professions to use stealth + their mobility to reset small fights at will, promoting and encouraging a very toxic play style.
  Problem: Reveal abilities are very unevenly distributed among professions and can't be used to pressure a Thief to deviate from its "stealth, strike and re-stealth" play style. This includes utility skills, but also WvW mechanics like painter traps & warclaw sniffs.
• Problem: Thief players, after all theses years complaining that Sentries and Watchtower ruin their play style, because with those on the map, they have to play like everyone else (possibility to be seen) or actually not run close to those.
• Problem: Long range strikes from stealth with Deadeye. Since they added this elite profession, the ability to use strikes from stealth is force multiplier to other already mentioned problems with stealth. It is a lot easier to deal with a player using stealth at close distance than it is at 900+ range.
  Problem: Perma stealth is still possible out of combat, can be macro'ed to hide in a structure and in conjunction with Shadow Portal allows others to jump into a structure bypassing inner and outer wall in some cases.
• Problem: Stealth is probably the only ability in game that heavily profits from bad minion/summon/pet AI and latency issues (ability to react and strike back) at the same time.

Feel free to peruse this thread and count how many thieves are defending stealth at all cost. Quit with the hyperbole, it says a lot about where you're coming from.

Initiative is our signature class mechanic. If Steal were our signature class mechanic, there wouldn't have been Swipe or Mark. 

Maintaining Stealth and mobility both takes slots. Like I said before, build choices.

Slot something else instead of revealed if that and map mechanics and purchasable utilities aren't helping you, like some Control. 

Still keep your kitten to a wall around Deadeye because it will probably be a Backstab that tags you instead of Death's Judgment. If you're getting dropped by DJ that much, clean your eyes and ears for real.

Easily sustained and chained Stealth in structures is a problem. Start there next time and then chill before you start overacting. 

 

[kooldude.7260]

31 minutes ago, solemn.9670 said:

Arguably the most fun but masochistic build in WvW for a long time, play fire/air/arcane dagger/dagger fresh air core ele and enjoy being 2-shot by your so-called weak builds 😹 you want to see a weak build, play anything that is actually fun and not OP to a level that makes being good at it irrelevant to everyone lol

Tl;dr version: everything is unbalanced, so is your thief build, sorry to break it to you like this, whole state of WvW is a kittening mess and Teef is not an exception

So you can't walk around on a nonsense build and expect to win? Got it. I'll just play power P/D core thief with nothing but signet utilities. 'woe is me everything is so OP!'

Edited March 22, 2023 by kooldude.7260

[senftube.6081]

I find it extremely arrogant here that some obvious players who have not spent 5 minutes with the class thief want to explain to those who have been playing this class for 10 years how they have to play it.  Fo real THAT is toxic.

Even more lulululu when they are ele mains which atm have the most aviable meta builds in the game and often carried by the most toxic/boring/lazy stat combo in the game complain about thief.

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Yunari.9065

[solemn.9670]

1 hour ago, kooldude.7260 said:

So you can't walk around on a nonsense build and expect to win? Got it. I'll just play power P/D core thief with nothing but signet utilities. 'woe is me everything is so OP!'

Spoken like someone who never experienced WvW when it was actually good. You don't know because you can't know - you never had a frame of reference. WvW being trash now is just normal for you, got it.

Please......please God , PLEASE god , don't reply with "I'm a 10 year veteran" or something, or I will genuinely be concerned about you.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, solemn.9670 said:

Regarding actual suggestions, I will give two that I think would be fun from both a thief perspective and those fighting a thief (or at least better)

1. Make stealth duration slightly longer (WAIT keep reading lol) but make stealth similar to games like halo 3 where it's more translucent, and a well trained eye can still see them distorting light around them. Easy to see in close range, harder to see when they're far away.

2. (Possibly make stealth duration much, much longer and:) Make stealth only possible outside of combat, so players can have an advantage roaming around the maps invisibly but don't have this stupidly powerful advantage during actual meaningful combat. More of a gimmick, as it probably should've been to begin with.

Both will sadly fail with this game engine in long run, the game already struggles as kitten with effects. The second point is absolutely out of question, they would switch to condi bs builds on the spot and since you can drop condies and port out to safety to get out of combat quicker than enemy, it'll not be healthy in long run.

54 minutes ago, Yunari.9065 said:

I find it extremely arrogant here that some obvious players who have not spent 5 minutes with the class thief want to explain to those who have been playing this class for 10 years how they have to play it.  Fo real THAT is toxic.

Even more lulululu when they are ele mains which atm have the most aviable meta builds in the game and often carried by the most toxic/boring/lazy stat combo in the game complain about thief.

 

It's not arrogance, it's called "experience" and "knowledge", something you know very little of. You don't need to play Willyblender to know that it's busted and need shaves to either damage or mobility, you don't need to play harbinger to know it's sustain or condi output need shaves, you don't need to play condi necro bunker to know it need some shaves in condi output, etc. Same goes for teefs, you don't need to play it to know how stupidly busted stealth is.
Yes, you can kill them and outplay them, but does that make them less broken? No.

[solemn.9670]

1 hour ago, Yunari.9065 said:

I find it extremely arrogant here that some obvious players who have not spent 5 minutes with the class thief want to explain to those who have been playing this class for 10 years how they have to play it.  Fo real THAT is toxic.

Even more lulululu when they are ele mains which atm have the most aviable meta builds in the game and often carried by the most toxic/boring/lazy stat combo in the game complain about thief.

 

>I only play off meta ele builds which most players wouldn't last a 10 seconds on

>"These full cele meta catalysts are so whiny!!"

Ill take extra salt with my strawman fallacy please

[Chips.7968]

On 3/21/2023 at 4:08 PM, Burnfall.9573 said:

My Desire, Passion Is For Stealth: Perm Stealth To Be Left In The Past. 

Well, glad you've evolved somewhat. Just 2 pages prior you had said if *thief* (not stealth) isn't reworked the entire class, all builds, everything, should be deleted from the game.

 

Now we're down to "perma stealth shouldn't be a thing". It's a better statement to be made for sure. 

[Justine.6351]

I once killed a thief, that had been in stealth for like 20 seconds, just using cleave. Long gone are those days though when anet nerfed damage through the floor giving thieves a free pass.

[senftube.6081]

4 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

>I only play off meta ele builds which most players wouldn't last a 10 seconds on

>"These full cele meta catalysts are so whiny!!"

Ill take extra salt with my strawman fallacy please

 

So you use off meta builds and wine X pages about stealth but using then your selfmade things which can't deal with XY?

 

Ok......

 

 

 

 

[senftube.6081]

4 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Both will sadly fail with this game engine in long run, the game already struggles as kitten with effects. The second point is absolutely out of question, they would switch to condi bs builds on the spot and since you can drop condies and port out to safety to get out of combat quicker than enemy, it'll not be healthy in long run.

It's not arrogance, it's called "experience" and "knowledge", something you know very little of. You don't need to play Willyblender to know that it's busted and need shaves to either damage or mobility, you don't need to play harbinger to know it's sustain or condi output need shaves, you don't need to play condi necro bunker to know it need some shaves in condi output, etc. Same goes for teefs, you don't need to play it to know how stupidly busted stealth is.
Yes, you can kill them and outplay them, but does that make them less broken? No.

 Ah god with you i don't even discuss anymore. For real.  For you everything u can't beat must be OP.  I get it.

[Zekent.3652]

I'll suggest 2 solutions:

1- reveal on dodges and blocks just like reveals works on hits.

2- being too close to a stealthed foe will reveal them, might be healthier but also should come with an overhaul on thief weapon 1 skills while stealthed.

 

 

[kash.9213]

23 minutes ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

I'll suggest 2 solutions:

1- reveal on dodges and blocks just like reveals works on hits.

2- being too close to a stealthed foe will reveal them, might be healthier but also should come with an overhaul on thief weapon 1 skills while stealthed.

 

 

I was kind of feeling you there but that last part is confusing. Do you mean overhaul Stealth Attacks even after those changes to Stealth? 

I think all Stealth Attacks, while maybe needing more risk to pull off, need to have a legit payoff and be decisive. They would also need to bring up all of the Stealth Attacks to even be used instead of passed over for non Stealth Attacks unless they have like full Malice loaded up. 

[Burial.1958]

44 minutes ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

I'll suggest 2 solutions:

1- reveal on dodges and blocks just like reveals works on hits.

2- being too close to a stealthed foe will reveal them, might be healthier but also should come with an overhaul on thief weapon 1 skills while stealthed.

 

 

1:

You would have a permanent reveal in group fights with the AoE spam and block spam Atm.

 

2.

That makes no sense either.

 

Once again, WvW is not balanced for 1vs1. Afterwards, someone should explain to me how a class with only 1 block and an elite on 80 CD and one with the lowest HP pool is supposed to survive something like that. The thief is already not the easiest class to play but that would just be overkill.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Burial.1958

[TheGrimm.5624]

With any class, take a toon, build what you think is a dominator and play it. Then provide feedback and potential changes.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

With any class, take a toon, build what you think is a dominator and play it. Then provide feedback and potential changes.

Come now.  It's much easier to run to the forum and bandwagon about deleting a class/mechanic you know nothing about.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Come now.  It's much easier to run to the forum and bandwagon about deleting a class/mechanic you know nothing about.

Not like that is strange since it happens to every mechanic people dont like, such as deleting downstate. Something gank thieves heavily favor, completely unrelated to having stealth and teleports up the whazzo I'm sure.

[solemn.9670]

17 hours ago, Yunari.9065 said:

 

So you use off meta builds and wine X pages about stealth but using then your selfmade things which can't deal with XY?

 

Ok......

 

 

 

 

That wasn't English, but I think you tried to say "so you are complaining about stealth, which everyone complains about, whilst running a build that actually performs quite well with stealth"?

Not like you'd know - after all, I said off meta, not "performs poorly vs thief". Its one of my better builds vs teef actually but I don't expect you to behave reasonably at this point and consider this.

My build doing well vs stealth doesn't retract from it being a goofy mechanic.

Debates with people like this always go the same way - X amount of people make points about an objectively problematic mechanic/skill/build etc etc, and then these guys swoop in to make strawman fallacies and ad hominems. Congratulations you wasted my time trying to interact with you 🤘

[Burnfall.9573]

4 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Not like that is strange since it happens to every mechanic people dont like, such as deleting downstate. Something gank thieves heavily favor, completely unrelated to having stealth and teleports up the whazzo I'm sure.

I remember years ago (evidences in the old Guild Wars 2 forum) that, there were many Thief Profession players trying out and playing non-stealth builds+non-teleport builds and were still successful in ganking enemies  Profession Players. 

 

They wanted to show every non-Profession Thief Players that their Profession didn't need Stealth nor Teleport to play their Profession. 

 

They were willing to compromise with the Community and Anet that, Stealth and Teleport can be compromised in being competitive with counterplay.

 

(There are still few Thief Profession Players who does not play Stealth+Teleport builds and who are will to compromise Their Profession to be competitive and healthy for the Community)

 

It is Anet who is to be solely blamed for creating a Toxic Hostile division among non-Thief Professions players. 

 

If 10 Years of the community begging Anet to make Thief Profession and Stealth competitive and healthy isn't enough...why is the Community continuing investing their time and energy with a company who not invest in their concerns to find a solution?

 

"Great Leader Are Willing To Sacrifice The Numbers To Save The People"

 

 

 

[Burial.1958]

2 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

(There are still few Thief Profession Players who does not play Stealth+Teleport builds and who are will to compromise Their Profession to be competitive and healthy for the Community)

 

 

 

 Okay tell me who are those thiefs which play without any stealth and without any shadowstep/wells/steal ?

[Chips.7968]

1 hour ago, Burial.1958 said:

 Okay tell me who are those thiefs which play without any stealth and without any shadowstep/wells/steal ?

I'd settle for just being told who the top thief players were who conveniently agreed with his opinion (delete thief!). 

[Burnfall.9573]

6 minutes ago, Chips.7968 said:

I'd settle for just being told who the top thief players were who conveniently agreed with his opinion (delete thief!). 

I will ask them for their permission to post their videos here..