Perma stealth on thiefs is wrong in WvW. Offers no counterplay.

[senftube.6081]

14 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

What's wrong with removing the most toxic class/mechanic from the game? I only see benefits.

"Oh, look there! They're more broken! Leave my broken, since there are other broken!" 
Classic.
Aaand who said other outliners shouldn't get nerfs?? Oh right, no one.
On top of that, none of the classes you mentioned will kill teef with ease, n o n e. Unless the teef is an absolute bot, but you can kill bots with whatever spec, not really a challenge to do so.

 

Classic Confirmation Bias because TrollingDemigod is such a pro player which played all classes with several hours. 🤡 Your rants against the thief class are cringe atm. 

[flyingplanet.6912]

3 hours ago, Yunari.9065 said:

Classic Confirmation Bias because TrollingDemigod is such a pro player which played all classes with several hours. 🤡 Your rants against the thief class are cringe atm. 

As his name implies... he is a troll. He has been like that for several years. When I see his name I already can tell what kind of nonsense he is gonna spew out. I suggest just ignore him. No point in trying to make argument because he is not gonna change.

[solemn.9670]

5 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

SA is strong right now and is what people were asking for. It promoted engaging more and coming out of stealth more often. I'm sure if they change it considerably again the goal post will be moved again. 

Still, in my first post, I didn't have a problem with changing it even more, I don't stealth often. But I'm not out of line to ask that attention be paid to peripheral effects to other builds. 

I don't believe you when you say it's what people were asking for unless the circles we frequent are really that different, but I doubt it. I've been hearing for quite awhile now that many thief mains are tired of SA being the best option/feeling forced to take it. Would've been cool if they buffed critical strikes instead or something, imo.

6 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

Did you read my first post or do you like parroting soundbites? 

I didn't read your first post, but the 'soundbites' I'm parroting are based on actual experiences I've had in-game as a thief/experiences I've had being killed helplessly by big-ego teefs who know how to teleport a few times and press the 3 button on keyboard (good for them). Idk what else to say mane, it's not *that* difficult and can be extremely cheesy (the comparison I made to hammer cele cata was a good one - both despised builds, both moderately difficult to most players, both actually pretty simplistic and lame with all things considered, both ele and teef mains would avoid these builds unless absolutely necessary if they have any self-respect).

[senftube.6081]

5 minutes ago, solemn.9670 said:

I don't believe you when you say it's what people were asking for unless the circles we frequent are really that different, but I doubt it. I've been hearing for quite awhile now that many thief mains are tired of SA being the best option/feeling forced to take it. Would've been cool if they buffed critical strikes instead or something, imo.

I didn't read your first post, but the 'soundbites' I'm parroting are based on actual experiences I've had in-game as a thief/experiences I've had being killed helplessly by big-ego teefs who know how to teleport a few times and press the 3 button on keyboard (good for them). Idk what else to say mane, it's not *that* difficult and can be extremely cheesy (the comparison I made to hammer cele cata was a good one - both despised builds, both moderately difficult to most players, both actually pretty simplistic and lame with all things considered, both ele and teef mains would avoid these builds unless absolutely necessary if they have any self-respect).

 

That is true but what does a buff to CS do for the loss of Defensive played Stealth? Anet should have buff Acro but they didn't. You folks don't understand that a delete of stealth means that thief need then buffs in Dodges, Reflects and so on because without stealth he is pretty weak on D/P. Same that every stealth attack has to be reworked and that my friend will never happen. That would be the same when others would say we delete invul and blocks. 

 

And for real i really dislike to delete something. Anet should offer a different build or maybe with the next expansion a spec for the thief which is PLAYABLE without stealth.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Yunari.9065

[prototypedragon.1406]

22 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

People who like spamming stealth on thief, spamming invulnerability on virtuoso, and spamming CC on warrior all have one thing in common. They like the feeling of having complete control over another person and causing them misery. Not exactly something you want to promote. Sadism gets dangerous.

If one can dodge a wrench they can dodge a Hammer 😉🤣 sorry warrior Hammer user I couldn't help myself.

[solemn.9670]

2 minutes ago, Yunari.9065 said:

 

That is true but what does a buff to CS do for the loss of Defensive palyed Stealth? Anet should have buff Acro but they didn't.

True, because now the issue is how powerful SA+Acro builds are. So they will probably have to back-track. Because they don't play their own game. lol

[senftube.6081]

9 minutes ago, solemn.9670 said:

True, because now the issue is how powerful SA+Acro builds are. So they will probably have to back-track. Because they don't play their own game. lol

 

SA+Acro? No Daredevil runs that. Only maybe S/D Core Build. Because without Trickery DrD D/P isn't playable.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Yunari.9065

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, solemn.9670 said:

I don't believe you when you say it's what people were asking for unless the circles we frequent are really that different, but I doubt it. I've been hearing for quite awhile now that many thief mains are tired of SA being the best option/feeling forced to take it. Would've been cool if they buffed critical strikes instead or something, imo.

I didn't read your first post, but the 'soundbites' I'm parroting are based on actual experiences I've had in-game as a thief/experiences I've had being killed helplessly by big-ego teefs who know how to teleport a few times and press the 3 button on keyboard (good for them). Idk what else to say mane, it's not *that* difficult and can be extremely cheesy (the comparison I made to hammer cele cata was a good one - both despised builds, both moderately difficult to most players, both actually pretty simplistic and lame with all things considered, both ele and teef mains would avoid these builds unless absolutely necessary if they have any self-respect).

Every thread about thieves and stealth in this forum asked for it. People wanted thieves to engage instead of dropping target to reset or kite. It's also more beneficial to come back out of stealth for the modifiers. So, what if it's strong, it's supposed to be. There is a pull to take it if you're generally starved of Initiative and for a burst of speed to position or orient around the target. 

I'll agree with you that's it's strong among thief trait lines. There is a pull to take SA and Trickery, especially if you're trying to use something like Infiltrators Arrow more than once since Initiative increase is often Anets answer to regulate something, and unfortunately doesn't get rolled back when it's obvious that wasn't the best answer. 

Critical strikes is fine but it could be stronger to keep up with other trait lines game wide because a lot of good utility is elsewhere. It's more to help a focused build reach threasholds but it's pretty good for that. What I think needs to be tackled next is Acrobatics as a main trait line to build around. Doubt it would happen but give it creative and effective ways to move around in an area and it would get used a lot more and wouldn't even have to be much stronger in modifiers. 

Edited March 16, 2023 by kash.9213

[Seneca.6319]

Honestly, it's not even fun to roam in WvW. It's the same toxic play we see in PvP. 

At least make it such that if they get hit or have condis on them they cannot get into stealth or take them out of stealth. This way even classes that don't have reveal skills but have AoE damage have a chance. 

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

27 minutes ago, Seneca.6319 said:

Honestly, it's not even fun to roam in WvW. It's the same toxic play we see in PvP. 

At least make it such that if they get hit or have condis on them they cannot get into stealth or take them out of stealth. This way even classes that don't have reveal skills but have AoE damage have a chance. 

Even though this can already happen to an extent (projectiles shot before stealthing will track and hit the target in stealth; it's possible to knock thieves out of their Shadow Refuge, ending their stealth and revealing them), I think this is fair.  But you know what?  We'll still get 20+ liked thief/stealth QQ threads that go on for pages and the OP never returns, like we have after every incremental thief/stealth nerf over the years.  It's like... a right of passage for every new player the first time they get smacked by a thief.  Only some never get over it and carry the grudge well into their later years.

Because stealth is hands-down the most despised mechanic in competitive modes.  People detest "perma stealth" more than "perma-invuln", "perma-block", or the chaining of the two.  They hate being boomed by glass cannon thieves more than any of the other "1-shot" builds that can do it from range (Soulbeast, Mesmer, Engi, Ele).  They even hate it more than the heavy-armor thief that bursts and runs for days, perhaps only because it trades stealth for invuln and block (Willbender)--unless Dragonhunter, in which case, stealth still applies.  All of these are okay, but stealth thief will never be.

Would love to poll all the thief/stealth haters to see what percent of them even have more than 100 hours on thief in competitive modes.  Any guesses?

[Xenesis.6389]

Hey, thieves need perma stealth to get away from zergs and infinite mobility willbenders, ok, so just drop it.

[captrowdy.9561]

Every mmo has had a stealth class that a small but very loud group of players have complained about. This is the way. 

[Shorra.7256]

Daredevil has always been broken , but Deadeye is making a massive comeback with Permastealth, staying in Keeps for long periods of timing being able to stealth out of combat get out of combat range jump on their warclaw and do it all over again. It's unfun and even with 6 - 7 of us, we have no counter play.  Target Painter and Target Painter Trap barely helps at all. 

 

And if they are going to nerf thief, let it be the specs and not core thief. We can barely do anything against classes such as Ranger or Ele and let alone with Runes of the Trapper. Core Thief is not a problem, it's okay in damage and in 1 vs 1, nothing else. The Elite Specs however is where everything is just borderlines OP or useless.

[Dr Meta.3158]

5 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Even though this can already happen to an extent (projectiles shot before stealthing will track and hit the target in stealth; it's possible to knock thieves out of their Shadow Refuge, ending their stealth and revealing them), I think this is fair.  But you know what?  We'll still get 20+ liked thief/stealth QQ threads that go on for pages and the OP never returns, like we have after every incremental thief/stealth nerf over the years.  It's like... a right of passage for every new player the first time they get smacked by a thief.  Only some never get over it and carry the grudge well into their later years.

Because stealth is hands-down the most despised mechanic in competitive modes.  People detest "perma stealth" more than "perma-invuln", "perma-block", or the chaining of the two.  They hate being boomed by glass cannon thieves more than any of the other "1-shot" builds that can do it from range (Soulbeast, Mesmer, Engi, Ele).  They even hate it more than the heavy-armor thief that bursts and runs for days, perhaps only because it trades stealth for invuln and block (Willbender)--unless Dragonhunter, in which case, stealth still applies.  All of these are okay, but stealth thief will never be.

Would love to poll all the thief/stealth haters to see what percent of them even have more than 100 hours on thief in competitive modes.  Any guesses?

Because strangely enough, people like to actually see what other players are doing so that they can attempt to counterplay.

 

In the Disney spidermam movies. Mysterio was the hardest villain spiderman struggled with and that was a regular human, no superpowers, that could stealth. Stealth alone made a guy that could stop a cruiseship from splitting in half among all his mobility abilities... struggle heavily. Imagine if that man had super powers too.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Dr Meta.3158

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

58 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Because strangely enough, people like to actually see what other players are doing so that they can attempt to counterplay.

Except, there is actually plenty of counterplay to stealth.  It just takes some game knowledge and experience.  Other than the most meme builds--typically nade-Engis, power Mesmers, or Soulbeasts, capable of stealthing out of sight, getting into range, and then unloading a death sentence in seconds from thin air, there are several ways of countering stealth users, especially melee-thieves.  People aren't really interested in learning to play if they believe stealth lacks counterplay.

Even without access to Reveal, every class can: jump, change direction, and abuse no-port spots to neutralize Backstabs.  They can use blocks, invulns, evades, auras, skills like Infuse Light, Defiant Stance, Full Counter, and drop and stand in AOEs, etc. if they think a big stealth attack is incoming.  And yes, knowing when to use these does involve being able to read one's opponent, something applicable to all matchups.  A lot of these are why Dragonhunter hard-counters melee thieves.  And Willbender is every bit as bursty and mobile, all while wearing heavy armor.  Meanwhile, thieves are so squishy, even though hard to hit, they can't survive more than a couple good hits.

If stealth were everything, no one on a non-stealth class would be able to beat someone on a stealth build at the same skill level.  But we know that's not the case.  Far from it.  A number of builds give thieves a hard time, stealth and all.

It's tired wisdom but nonetheless true: The best advice to anyone struggling against thieves or stealth is to play those builds.  They are guaranteed to: (1) realize it's not as easy or broken as it looks, and (2) get much better, comfortable even, at engaging thieves on other classes. That's what I did.

[Dr Meta.3158]

2 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Except, there is actually plenty of counterplay to stealth.  It just takes some game knowledge and experience.  Other than the most meme builds--typically nade-Engis, power Mesmers, or Soulbeasts, capable of stealthing out of sight, getting into range, and then unloading a death sentence in seconds from thin air, there are several ways of countering stealth users, especially melee-thieves.  People aren't really interested in learning to play if they believe stealth lacks counterplay.

Even without access to Reveal, every class can: jump, change direction, and abuse no-port spots to neutralize Backstabs.  They can use blocks, invulns, evades, auras, skills like Infuse Light, Defiant Stance, Full Counter, and drop and stand in AOEs, etc. if they think a big stealth attack is incoming.  And yes, knowing when to use these does involve being able to read one's opponent, something applicable to all matchups.  A lot of these are why Dragonhunter hard-counters melee thieves.  And Willbender is every bit as bursty and mobile, all while wearing heavy armor.  Meanwhile, thieves are so squishy, even though hard to hit, they can't survive more than a couple good hits.

If stealth were everything, no one on a non-stealth class would be able to beat someone on a stealth build at the same skill level.  But we know that's not the case.  Far from it.  A number of builds give thieves a hard time, stealth and all.

It's tired wisdom but nonetheless true: The best advice to anyone struggling against thieves or stealth is to play those builds.  They are guaranteed to: (1) realize it's not as easy or broken as it looks, and (2) get much better, comfortable even, at engaging thieves on other classes. That's what I did.

To summarize, if you want to counter thieves in stealth: Use your Peter Tingle.

 

[cyberzombie.7348]

2 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

To summarize, if you want to counter thieves in stealth: Use your Peter Tingle.

You hardly even need that, there are ways to track stealthed targets. Just have to actually build for it. 

[solemn.9670]

17 hours ago, Yunari.9065 said:

 

SA+Acro? No Daredevil runs that. Only maybe S/D Core Build. Because without Trickery DrD D/P isn't playable.

Try it on deadeye.

Unkillable 😂

[Burial.1958]

1 hour ago, solemn.9670 said:

Try it on deadeye.

Unkillable 😂

That is a troll Build. U can also make immortal engineers and so on. When i see a Double rifle Deadeye troll i simply don't fight it. Same with Celestial P/P John Wayne Trolololo. Same also with Bunker Druids etc.. Such things u have on all classes.

 

for me the only thing they should really nerf or rework is Bounding Dodger.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Burial.1958

[Dr Meta.3158]

2 hours ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

You hardly even need that, there are ways to track stealthed targets. Just have to actually build for it. 

Do it on a mesmer Build Editor

[asterix.9614]

15 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Even though this can already happen to an extent (projectiles shot before stealthing will track and hit the target in stealth; it's possible to knock thieves out of their Shadow Refuge, ending their stealth and revealing them), I think this is fair.  But you know what?  We'll still get 20+ liked thief/stealth QQ threads that go on for pages and the OP never returns, like we have after every incremental thief/stealth nerf over the years.  It's like... a right of passage for every new player the first time they get smacked by a thief.  Only some never get over it and carry the grudge well into their later years.

Because stealth is hands-down the most despised mechanic in competitive modes.  People detest "perma stealth" more than "perma-invuln", "perma-block", or the chaining of the two.  They hate being boomed by glass cannon thieves more than any of the other "1-shot" builds that can do it from range (Soulbeast, Mesmer, Engi, Ele).  They even hate it more than the heavy-armor thief that bursts and runs for days, perhaps only because it trades stealth for invuln and block (Willbender)--unless Dragonhunter, in which case, stealth still applies.  All of these are okay, but stealth thief will never be.

Would love to poll all the thief/stealth haters to see what percent of them even have more than 100 hours on thief in competitive modes.  Any guesses?

I think people should be directing this discussion towards dead eye, the other thief builds have a high skill ceiling. Dead eye on the other hand is like a glass cannon soul beast with instant access to stealth, a 1500 range daze, a tonne of blinds, don't forget poison, high dps and so many ports it can blink half a map away if anyone sneezes on it. Revealed debuff (classes that have access to it have it on a very short duration) is almost useless against a deadeye that has played the class for a day or so, the access to so many ports means the dead eye can kite till the debuff goes.

Edited March 17, 2023 by asterix.9614

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

If nothing else, this discussion confirms what we already knew:

Popular Opinion:  Stealth sucks!  Delete thief now!

Unpopular Opinion:  Stealth has ample counterplay but most don't bother to learn.  Even though Thief is the first or second most nerfed class in the game's history (depending on whether you're talking to Mesmers 😅), there are still areas Thieves/stealth could be reigned in, but as long as Thief is stealth dependent, people will continue to complain, no  matter how much stealth's nerfed.

That second, nuanced opinion will collect "Confused" reactions for days.  Yet practically no responses actually countering what was said.  Internet anonymity amirite? 😄

>> Hey, drop a "Confused" reaction here if you've never played Thief in competitive for more than 50 hours.  Prove me wrong! <<

[Chips.7968]

OP struggles, oh well. I struggle against some classes/builds, they must be deleted because I only play 1 build and it's not fair they win.

[cyberzombie.7348]

10 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Do it on a mesmer Build Editor

Well this is what I've been using so far   http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiwAEh3lJwsYXMVGKOqKZxMA-zhDpORQEKgWFC5MBAA-e I use mirror blade if I notice some is going into stealth, then I swap to d/f. Using bladestorm + fire sigil to sniff someone out during their stealth, then I pull them near the fire blast.

Though granted core mes doesn't have much to go off of.

Edited March 18, 2023 by cyberzombie.7348

[Acemos.2856]

TEEF OP NERF TEEF! And if I hear any of you talk about reveal skills, target painters, watchtower or that area in the desert bl that literally perma counters stealth, I'LL SHUT MY EYES AND EARS. It simply doesn't exist to me. Stealth is too OP and has no counterplay and at the same time, I think that every other class should also have the same exact mobility and stealth capabilities as thief because every class should be thief or no classes should be thief. Screw the archetype of thief, the shadow skulker. Thief should just be Warrior #2 am i right? let's get some likes and thanks emotes.