Stone heart needs to go

[Kodama.6453]

13 hours ago, Grimjack.8130 said:

20% traits will largely go eventually I believe, but ultimately if something in the game isn't causing issues, it can stay IMO - and thats whats going on here.

Many of the cooldown reduction traits didn't cause any problems in the past and still got removed....

It is possible to rebalance elementalist after a removal of the cooldown reduction traits. I don't see why every other cooldown reduction trait which didn't cause problems got removed and then elementalist gets to keep them simply for being elementalists. But it might happen, considering that it is the favourite class of CMC and that secures it special treatment like how it was also the only class which never had to deal with the whole trade off system.

[Grimjack.8130]

33 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Many of the cooldown reduction traits didn't cause any problems in the past and still got removed....

It is possible to rebalance elementalist after a removal of the cooldown reduction traits. I don't see why every other cooldown reduction trait which didn't cause problems got removed and then elementalist gets to keep them simply for being elementalists. But it might happen, considering that it is the favourite class of CMC and that secures it special treatment like how it was also the only class which never had to deal with the whole trade off system.

You just didn't read my post if you don't understand.

"Many didn't cause problems" Most are still in the game. And most that were removed so far were problematic from a balancing or diversity standpoint. In fact all of them were.

[Jski.6180]

We could make it stab on auras or maybe barrier on auras over all an self buff effect that can be made into support.

I would not mind seeing diamond skin become an clear on applying protection as well.

Over all the traits out side of the current stone heart are week and dont make it worth running. If you do want an update to Stone heart you NEED to rework the full earth line to be worth something.

[GuriGashi.5617]

Change Stome Heart to  „You are immune against crits when Magnetic Aura is up“ and Tempest would be fine 

Edited March 29, 2023 by GuriGashi.5617

[Leonidrex.5649]

maybe condi builds should be usable and not utter griefing, turns out having hard counters to certain damage type is kinda bad in a game where its the only viable damage type

[Vancho.8750]

27 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

maybe condi builds should be usable and not utter griefing, turns out having hard counters to certain damage type is kinda bad in a game where its the only viable damage type

The problem with condi builds is that they can't be balanced , either they are too good and everyone plays the same build (condi 0necro wars) or they are not good since everyone has enough sustain to outlast them. If you go back you can remember that all the condi metas consists of very few condi builds that have huge sustain and huge bombs of variety of conditions. 

The way conditions were designed at the start was like extra damage and not main source and malice was kind of like ferocity. After the reworks arrenanet has always struggled to find any way to make them work and always the working condi builds created slog games. Last wack one they pushed was Harbinger and it was spewing weakness so most didn't people were denied doing damage.

[Leonidrex.5649]

2 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

The problem with condi builds is that they can't be balanced , either they are too good and everyone plays the same build (condi 0necro wars) or they are not good since everyone has enough sustain to outlast them. If you go back you can remember that all the condi metas consists of very few condi builds that have huge sustain and huge bombs of variety of conditions. 

The way conditions were designed at the start was like extra damage and not main source and malice was kind of like ferocity. After the reworks arrenanet has always struggled to find any way to make them work and always the working condi builds created slog games. Last wack one they pushed was Harbinger and it was spewing weakness so most didn't people were denied doing damage.

since I started playing this game ( 2019 I think )
there has never really been condi meta, forum whiners DONT want condi meta, the moment condi builds are playable, they get mad, upset and go to forums with pitchforks
healthy balance would be 50/50. but it always was 80/20 and even then people wonder why bunkers end up croping up.
protection is OP because everything does power damage, toughness is OP because everything does power damage.

[Vancho.8750]

43 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

since I started playing this game ( 2019 I think )
there has never really been condi meta, forum whiners DONT want condi meta, the moment condi builds are playable, they get mad, upset and go to forums with pitchforks
healthy balance would be 50/50. but it always was 80/20 and even then people wonder why bunkers end up croping up.
protection is OP because everything does power damage, toughness is OP because everything does power damage.

Ou man you missed the most boring metas then, I don't think you would have been thinking condi is a FUN thing to have when every game is always 4 condi builds that flail around till everyone wastes their condi clears and someone dies since it had all of them at once. There is a reason no one likes Scourge and no one likes Mirage, the whole shtick was to dampen all damage and make people implode when they didn't have cleanse active. Anet messed up both of these that they had to remove the cleanse skills from the confusion table since you killed yourself when cleansing or how they reversed torment to do damage when no moving instead of moving since if you had 30 stacks of both you couldn't do kitten.
Also for the bunkers, the most obnoxious ones were condi based since they didn't lose damage when bunkerring.
The game gets really boring when condi is dominant cause you are basically fighting condi bunkers.    

[Leonidrex.5649]

6 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Ou man you missed the most boring metas then, I don't think you would have been thinking condi is a FUN thing to have when every game is always 4 condi builds that flail around till everyone wastes their condi clears and someone dies since it had all of them at once. There is a reason no one likes Scourge and no one likes Mirage, the whole shtick was to dampen all damage and make people implode when they didn't have cleanse active. Anet messed up both of these that they had to remove the cleanse skills from the confusion table since you killed yourself when cleansing or how they reversed torment to do damage when no moving instead of moving since if you had 30 stacks of both you couldn't do kitten.
Also for the bunkers, the most obnoxious ones were condi based since they didn't lose damage when bunkerring.
The game gets really boring when condi is dominant cause you are basically fighting condi bunkers.    

I like how power meta is 10 different broken power builds, but condi meta is 1 condi build that is OP and stacked.
thats the issue with the game, all condi builds suck, everybody plays power and counters powere, so when condi ends up being usable they have mental breakdown, as they have no clue what to dodge, how to cleanse.

[Hotride.2187]

5 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I like how power meta is 10 different broken power builds, but condi meta is 1 condi build that is OP and stacked.
thats the issue with the game, all condi builds suck, everybody plays power and counters powere, so when condi ends up being usable they have mental breakdown, as they have no clue what to dodge, how to cleanse.

You can always go fight cele builds in wvw. Recently there are some cele builds that do big power dmg too, but on average its condi bunkers. Have some 10+ min 1v1s, enjoy, then come back explaining how the problem is players not being able to dodge. And not, you did your best in cleansing and dodging, but the condi build is made to not die first and foremost so you run out of cleanses and dodges and eventually you just die. Kinda like how staff mirage and flame weaver worked pre eod drop. As far from fun to fight as can exist.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Hotride.2187

[Lighter.5631]

make stone heart a duration buff, when you swap to earth gain 10 second of stone heart

so you can't just hard camp earth

way too ridiculous with staff ele now

they stay ranged to cast all their skills, mag aura, burning retreat, wall, knock back, super speed,

but when you finally get close, it's stone heart.

literally unplayable

Edited March 30, 2023 by Lighter.5631

[Dreams.3128]

12 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

since I started playing this game ( 2019 I think )
there has never really been condi meta, forum whiners DONT want condi meta, the moment condi builds are playable, they get mad, upset and go to forums with pitchforks
healthy balance would be 50/50. but it always was 80/20 and even then people wonder why bunkers end up croping up.
protection is OP because everything does power damage, toughness is OP because everything does power damage.

As someone who saw both sides of the metas, both are goddamn awful. If it was up to me, both of those kinds of builds should get hit with the banbat, and then adjusted accordingly because the bigger issue is there is too much kitten damage in this game. I don't understand WHY people like feeling like a little kid that just took a shot of sugar, because it doesn't feel good and it is sure as hell not enjoyable, or welcoming to any new players that are trying to get their foot in the water.

[Dreams.3128]

On 3/28/2023 at 6:01 PM, Saiyan.1704 said:

Pretty sure there's at least 1 "Stone Heart Needs a Nerf" thread every year and it always leads to nothing...
The strait doesn't need a nerf as much as Ele just needs to be more susceptible to condis. There isn't many condi specs in the game to pressure Ele's with Stone Heart.

Also i feel Sigil of Cleansing needs to be removed from sPvP and for selfish reasons. I'm tired of condi guard being completely countered by a single condi cleanse 😛 but that's just my wishful thinking lol...

Also why in the actual hell would you get rid of Cleansing? Certain classes don't have as much built in cleansing via traits. If you take that out, you are literally begging for stupid, sustain condi builds to start bubbling back up to the surface. Just be lucky we don't have Antitoxin runes as well like WvW has in order to offset the plethora of condi that is spat up in that game mode.

[Vancho.8750]

17 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I like how power meta is 10 different broken power builds, but condi meta is 1 condi build that is OP and stacked.
thats the issue with the game, all condi builds suck, everybody plays power and counters powere, so when condi ends up being usable they have mental breakdown, as they have no clue what to dodge, how to cleanse.

Well we have had 4 condi builds and their power friend meta it wasn't better, Scourge,Scourge, Firebrand, Weaver , Mirage or Rev all condi and maybe Holo or Thief for power and you could roll condi thief too but the power one had that finisher nudge that made the game little bit less slower. All of them had AoE and were tanky as kitten, I think there were like 2 single target condi builds that worked and mostly cause they could overwhelm you in the case of Berserker or Attack you as much as it like in Thief, Berserker was probably the only attempt of Anet at a condi build without tricky tricks that actually tried to fight it out and even then it was forced into more bunkerish amulets and skills to stall the game. 
Also when condi is a thing there is clear cut which condi build is the best and there is no reason to play the others cause it most probably can counter them, who ever has the best clears, condi bombs, AoE and sustain wins. There is no out skilling or out playing you either have the build that can win or you don't. 
Probably their best condi build they manage to do and balance was Core condi necro, and they kinda kittened it up to make space for Harbinger, it had its place as disabler which had good enough AoE, it generally didn't condi bomb till you melt and it couldn't really bunker. 
@Hotride.2187 Is correct if you want to feel the pre HoT Meta you can go WvW and fight Cele Ele it will have the exact same encounters as before with some new fancy particles. 

As for power builds having nonsense, it does happen allot, but generally you can tell which part of the build is the OP part and what killed you, on Condi it just feels like fighting a bunker that can kill you after some time cause you ran out of gas.  

[Leonidrex.5649]

7 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Well we have had 4 condi builds and their power friend meta it wasn't better, Scourge,Scourge, Firebrand, Weaver , Mirage or Rev all condi and maybe Holo or Thief for power and you could roll condi thief too but the power one had that finisher nudge that made the game little bit less slower. All of them had AoE and were tanky as kitten, I think there were like 2 single target condi builds that worked and mostly cause they could overwhelm you in the case of Berserker or Attack you as much as it like in Thief, Berserker was probably the only attempt of Anet at a condi build without tricky tricks that actually tried to fight it out and even then it was forced into more bunkerish amulets and skills to stall the game. 
Also when condi is a thing there is clear cut which condi build is the best and there is no reason to play the others cause it most probably can counter them, who ever has the best clears, condi bombs, AoE and sustain wins. There is no out skilling or out playing you either have the build that can win or you don't. 
Probably their best condi build they manage to do and balance was Core condi necro, and they kinda kittened it up to make space for Harbinger, it had its place as disabler which had good enough AoE, it generally didn't condi bomb till you melt and it couldn't really bunker. 
@Hotride.2187 Is correct if you want to feel the pre HoT Meta you can go WvW and fight Cele Ele it will have the exact same encounters as before with some new fancy particles. 

As for power builds having nonsense, it does happen allot, but generally you can tell which part of the build is the OP part and what killed you, on Condi it just feels like fighting a bunker that can kill you after some time cause you ran out of gas.  

yes you COULD make 5man condi team.
but you would usually see Firebrand ( support with power amulet ), scourge ( condi but they also played power, dont forget ) Scourge/core/reaper, ALWAYS power thief roaming, and 1 side node build usually power. So in what most people consider "condi" meta, you would end up with 2 power, 2 condi, 1 support comps. Now go enjoy 5x power and wonder why a single trait makes people almost invincible XD

[Leonidrex.5649]

20 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

You can always go fight cele builds in wvw. Recently there are some cele builds that do big power dmg too, but on average its condi bunkers. Have some 10+ min 1v1s, enjoy, then come back explaining how the problem is players not being able to dodge. And not, you did your best in cleansing and dodging, but the condi build is made to not die first and foremost so you run out of cleanses and dodges and eventually you just die. Kinda like how staff mirage and flame weaver worked pre eod drop. As far from fun to fight as can exist.

yes, so maybe conditions should deal actual damage? you know that I tried making burst condi builds pre-feb, you know how it ended? Warrior pressed V, which did 10k dmg, then he used gs3 ( dodge skill ) it did 12k dmg, and I died.
He facetanked 50k+ worth of conditions that he healed and cleansed through. This is why every condi build HAS to be survivable, because
1 even if you go glass, the damage is just bad.
2 even if builds with "kitten" cleansing, have enough of it to face-tank for good, bit. reset, recover and run or kill you.
Imagine if everyone in the game had several endure pains for free shoved into random traits and skills and then wonder why everyone has to do X or Y damage or cc or whatever to be usable.

[Leonidrex.5649]

14 hours ago, Dreams.3128 said:

As someone who saw both sides of the metas, both are goddamn awful. If it was up to me, both of those kinds of builds should get hit with the banbat, and then adjusted accordingly because the bigger issue is there is too much kitten damage in this game. I don't understand WHY people like feeling like a little kid that just took a shot of sugar, because it doesn't feel good and it is sure as hell not enjoyable, or welcoming to any new players that are trying to get their foot in the water.

the reason why there is " so much damage " because in GW2 every character is their own healer.
There is too much sustain in the game.

[Hotride.2187]

4 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

yes, so maybe conditions should deal actual damage? you know that I tried making burst condi builds pre-feb

I've fought only a few glass condi builds that sort of worked. I have no problem with that sort of gameplay, I only have problems with the bunkering builds. But I dont see how burst condi and bunker condi can coexist without an extra stat for condi dmg (or at least, condi dmg relying on crit chance in some way). It looks like a lot of effort to enable builds that arent different to power builds, but if the bunkers get removed in the process, why not.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Hotride.2187

[Koensol.5860]

5 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

the reason why there is " so much damage " because in GW2 every character is their own healer.
There is too much sustain in the game.

Trust me, you don't want pvp where you are reliant on your healer to survive. I've seen it in other games and it's dogshit, especially for a game like gw2 with such a small community. Being selfsustainable is on of the reasons pvp is still alive. If pugs will just die to any consistent damage without having a support in their team, pvp will be dead in a heartbeat. 

[apharma.3741]

4 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I've fought only a few glass condi builds that sort of worked. I have no problem with that sort of gameplay, I only have problems with the bunkering builds. But I dont see how burst condi and bunker condi can coexist without an extra stat for condi dmg (or at least, condi dmg relying on crit chance in some way). It looks like a lot of effort to enable builds that arent different to power builds, but if the bunkers get removed in the process, why not.

Back when the game first started to get good damage out of conditions you also needed crit chance usually. This meant using rabid stats to get those on crit bleeds and other effect. Alternatively you would choose carrion on necro for more life force and better power damage that helped make up for that but either way you had 2 offensive stats and 1 defensive and they didn't let you have perfect stats except for berserker.