ANet wants celestial gear to do what it currently does because they directly profit from it being strong.

[Polar.8634]

32 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said:

once again nice argument... sorry i didn't make a quick poll across the whole community to sniff out the meta builds down to the infusion slots and i used a popular source... how could i have been so negligent...

ok i'll explain it to you. from your post 

 

1 hour ago, RazieL.5684 said:

Power Ambush Mirage – Marauder

try to use it against any celestial build. 

1 hour ago, RazieL.5684 said:

Power Vindicator – Marauder

try to put it against any celestial build.

1 hour ago, RazieL.5684 said:

Power Reaper – Marauder

try to put it against any celestial  build. 

 

and then tell your thoughts. the best info you can get is by playing different specs and not looking on websites.

[RazieL.5684]

1 minute ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

I'm very well aware what you want to point out and for all we know that 10000 stat gear is actually very much op. But it is hard to work with something fictional you just made up, because in your head it isn't op ofc. So how about sticking to actually existing numbers? Makes much more sense to work with those. Unless you don't like how those factual numbers contradict your stance, right? But that's not my problem.

clearly you are not aware of anything... i tried to illustrate to you how coefficients work and why not having enough of a stat even though your total number of stats is bigger doesn't make it OP but you can't even see that so i'm wasting my time here...

 

3 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Ofc, and as i showed, the difference with cele is quite significant.

yeah i hear that all the time that the difference is from being able to 1shot people into making them immortal gods and this is the whole reason i am wasting my time on you right now, because the actual difference is that instead of being 1shot by power builds, people now get 2-3 shot instead... there is a difference, but it's not what you illustrate it to be... not even in the same universe...

 

6 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Depends on the build and matchup, some cele builds absolutely deal more more power dmg.

yeah like... 1?...

 

6 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Well, that's a big advantage of cele over pure condi builds.

and even bigger advantage for Marauder...

 

14 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

No i don't. And it's not cele that prevents oneshots. Again, unrelated nonsense, that appears to be your only argument ...

 

36 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said:

if the opponent doesn't die to the initial burst

short term memory loss?

 

16 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

You are just trying to pick single instances while completely ignoring the whole package - when it clearly is the latter that makes cele so strong.

ah i see... so the reason you lose your fights is not my +500 bonus healing on my heal... it's the +25 on my proc from sigil and the +17 on my trait when i change element and the 0.2 coefficient on my water field blasting , i see, i see... i mean your 16k grenade barrage gets completely countered by that so what could you even do? i understand now... /sarcasm

 

25 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

You've yet to bring an argument for that ...

i have brought many arguments, you not comprehending them is a different story, and my daily experience disproves everything you have stated so far... if i don't play properly i still get single buttons critting me for half my health on a daily basis... yet you have provided NO argument how is cele OP other than it doesn't get 1shot compared to the META Marauder builds... you provide no argument why the majority of meta builds are marauder, you have provided no argument how cele is OP yet still gets annihilated in a couple of good hits if not played properly, you have provided no argument how the + 1 second of protection from cele loses you every fight against cele... i mean all you've done so far was cry about not being able to 1shot people IE wasting my time...

[RazieL.5684]

19 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

ok i'll explain it to you. from your post 

 

try to use it against any celestial build. 

try to put it against any celestial build.

try to put it against any celestial  build. 

 

and then tell your thoughts. the best info you can get is by playing different specs and not looking on websites.

so no argument... because i don't play any of those classes, but i have beaten them plenty with trailblaizer, carrion, and FA weaver... are you trying to say they are weak or something?

 

anyway you guys are just wasting my time, happy easter

[Zyreva.1078]

Reading comprehension is hard, i see. Too bad cele can't help with that ...

Edited April 15, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Burial.1958]

2 hours ago, RazieL.5684 said:

i never said i was any good... i only said that the bad players like the ones crying about cele need to get good...

 

i mostly play FA weaver it's very enjoyable to me even though it lacks in cleanses a lot and generally struggles being outnumbered i sometimes get very satisfying results... i have fought plenty celestial builds, sometimes i win, most of the time i don't... but i realize it's because of my lack of ability and weakness to conditions of my build instead of crying about it as if it's some sort of cheating that the other person chose something (that is available to everyone) that has the edge over my build...

 

do you know what also has the edge over my build? trash thief players that stealth port on me and take 50-70% of my health with 1 button... having 0 counter to it because most of my abilities are targeted... meaning i can't cleave around me like a warrior or engineer, and even if i happen to try and counter the thief if they stealth again they can just heal to full in stealth with me having almost 0 chance of following up on it making stealth a super hard counter to my build you might even say it's damage immunity just because of the way my build works... but that changes if i go with cata hammer and have plenty of AoE attacks including auto attack that cleaves... see? improvise... adapt... overcome... git gud...

 

but then guess what happens with my hammer build once i face a ranger...

 

i understand the idea that people want to make their own builds and be able to mix and match whatever because i also find the fun in that... but that is never going to be optimal and everyone will get mowed down by marauder builds...

 

p.s using 1-2 pieces of another statset like soldier doesn't mean you are using soldier...

 

You have now written a lot but somehow also nothing. You simply avoid the fact that Cele provides more stats and is considered busted by almost every serious roamer.  Because it is simple mathematics that such a set can not be healthy as it is now in the game. All other sets have their tradeoffs somewhere.

[Hotride.2187]

39 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Reading comprehension is hard, i see. Too bad cele can't help with that ...

Dont need much to just use skills off CD.

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Zerk has better burst ofc, but that becomes pretty irrelevant if the opponent doesn't die to the initial burst (because of tankyness or simply avoiding the dmg). And then there are plenty of stat combinations that don't even have zerk burst. So what about those?

 

The expectation that you should be able to win off your opener seems far more broken to me than celestial stats. 

[Hotride.2187]

57 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

The expectation that you should be able to win off your opener seems far more broken to me than celestial stats. 

No, the expectation is that you have a fair chance of winning. Not that the opponent shrugs of your bursts like you tickled them and then they kill you with solid dmg of their own.

But yeah if someone doesnt know what to dodge/mitigate with defensive CDs, they should die in the burst. Then they should check what killed them, learn and play better. Instead of spamming skills and getting carried by stats.

You play cele ele though so what is there to discuss.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Hotride.2187

[RazieL.5684]

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Reading comprehension is hard, i see. Too bad cele can't help with that ...

it is hard as you have demonstrated numerous times just in this thread...

 

p.s lost count of how many times any of you has gone after my character instead of providing an actual argument which is understandable... i would be mad too if i couldn't make my case and were only speaking nonsense without any proof...

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

The expectation that you should be able to win off your opener seems far more broken to me than celestial stats. 

I never said that. In fact i have spoken out against oneshot builds, because i don't think that's healthy or balanced gameplay either.

Which is exactly why i view cele as so problematic. Nothing else comes close to cele in sustained combat. And if you can't beat something in sustained combat, attempting to oneshot becomes the only - unhealthy - alternative and since this doesn't (and shouldn't!) work very well either - there is no counter. Cele doesn't only counter oneshot builds - many things do that btw, which is why oneshot builds aren't really much of a problem - it counters, or rather "overpowers" everything. That's the problem with cele.

Active defense aside, it's mainly toughness and vitality (as well as stuff like dura rune and certain traits) that counteract oneshots and not the multitude of other stats that cele provides. So cele buffs didn't actually impact the onehsot vs cele interaction that much, nor is cele the only gear that provides significant amounts of toughness and vitality. So again, pointing out that cele is op has absolutely nothing to do with "hurr durr can't oneshot everything" nonsense.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Chaba.5410]

14 hours ago, Polar.8634 said:

There is no reason to defend cele stats unless you are someone who can only play having stat advantage over other.

Oof.  Any hope of a rational discussion on cele stats left this thread the moment the cynics entered.  Oh wait, that was in the very first post.

[Chaba.5410]

2 hours ago, Burial.1958 said:

Cele provides more stats

So what?

Explain it to me like I'm a 5 year old as to why having more numbers, even though they are spread out evenly into every stat and can't all be utilized optimally by every class, is a balance problem.  Because "serious roamers" are favoring specific classes that can?

A person should be able to explain this assumption about stats beforehand, don't you think?  I recall in the early years of this game when someone proved by the straight numbers that a core necro using all celestial gear (which was before the extra stats were added) provided higher damage than one using berserker/valkyrie because necro was one of those classes at the time that could utilize all those stats.  Yet players ended up still using berserker/valkyrie on necro for meta.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Zyreva.1078]

20 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Yet players ended up still using berserker/valkyrie on necro for meta.

Ah yes, good old times when the roaming meta consisted of zerk core necros. Oh wait ...

[Chaba.5410]

31 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Ah yes, good old times when the roaming meta consisted of zerk core necros. Oh wait ...

Are you trying to support my point that the issue with cele depends more on how well a class is able to utilize the stats rather than the fact that a specific stat combo has "more stats"?  Because that's what it looks like you just did by focusing on the class and what context it's being used in.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[JTGuevara.9018]

On 4/14/2023 at 3:53 AM, Widebody.5071 said:

Enough with the Celestial bashing for goodness sake. We've played thrue the power creep, the insane boost to condies, the oversized aoe rings, reduced seige damage, map modifications that favor attackers, reduced land speed for melee, and many more things instigated by folks complaining about this thang and that. Most of us adapted and are doing okay.

Grow a pair and stop moaning your opinion is no more valid then everyone elses. If i can work thrue it why can't you. Everyone is looking for an easy kill nowadays. I see opposing players bait out others then if you go to help, players from  your side signs off and you're left fighting with a bunch of morphing, disappearing, cloning magicians but oh well that's the way the game is build. Yet those same people will complain about  a stat combo that cause them to spend time taking someone out.

Suck it up Buttercup you'll survive.

Welcome to gw2's combat! Although fun at times, it is a HOT MESS.

It's why I play gw1 to this day.

[Zyreva.1078]

55 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Are you trying to support my point that the issue with cele depends more on how well a class is able to utilize the stats rather than the fact that a specific stat combo has "more stats"?  Because that's what it looks like you just did by focusing on the class and what context it's being used in.

No, i'm just pointing out how cele defenders once again feel the need to bring up completely unrelated stuff to distract.

When being able to utilize certain stats better than others determines how powerful a build is, it's a problem with those stats. If there wasn't then it wouldn't matter what stats a build utilizes well and we'd have plenty of non cele builds that would be at least on par with the likes of cele harb, cata, wb, etc. But it's no coincidence that all the real broken stuff utilizes cele and builds that don't pale in comparison.

Also it's not just about "more stats". It's about how much more. Cele always had more total stats and it obviously needs that to be viable. But it was already decent before it got those massive buff. And if something that was more or less balanced suddenly gets massive buffs while everything else remains the same, the outcome can't be balanced anymore.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Chaba.5410]

30 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

When being able to utilize certain stats better than others determines how powerful a build is, it's a problem with those stats.

First off, this was my point: "the issue with cele depends more on how well a class is able to utilize the stats rather than the fact that a specific stat combo has "more stats"".

Which leads me to my second question: how exactly are you determining it's the stats and not the build?  Other builds can't utilize those stats all the time.  If it were, any build could run those stats and be "on par".  The build wouldn't matter.

The real problem is probably the combination of cele and the skills on the builds and one thing or the other can't be pointed to as the sole source.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Zyreva.1078]

12 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Which leads me to my second question: how exactly are you determining it's the stats and not the build?

When there is a single common denominator, it's pretty obvious what the deciding factor is. And it's further supported by logic, math and experience.

12 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Other builds can't utilize those stats all the time.  If it were, any build could run those stats and be "on par".  The build wouldn't matter.

You could multiply all cele stats with 10 and some builds would still be better than other's. Traits and skills always matter, that doesn't mean gear can't be op in itself.

12 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

The real problem is probably the combination of cele and the skills on the builds and one thing or the other can't be pointed to as the sole source.

Cele isn't the only problem, but it is one. The disparity in stats is simply too big.

Again, cele was fine (arguably even on the stronger side) before, so it would make a lot more sense to simply revert those buffs instead of trying to rework the entire game arround one broken stat combination.

Like, just imagine zerk had all it's stats doubled. Everyone would just run arround oneshotting each other, because nothing would be able to survive the insane dmg and it all comes down to whoever hits first (aka has the most stealth/invuln - so builds still matter a lot). Would it make more sense now to rework all skills and traits to accommodate to those broken zerk stats (while completely ruining many other builds) or would it be better to just revert the stats to the original state?

Edited April 15, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Chaba.5410]

24 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

And it's further supported by logic, math and experience.

What math?  I have yet to see any math here in this thread.  It's just all speculation, assumptions, and cynicism.  Only one guy so far mentioned individual skill coefficients to make some attempt at bringing math into the thread and that was laughed at.

No one has isolated a single common denominator yet which is why I suggested that it's a combination of the stat and the builds.

You say cele was fine previously.  Was it really?  I seem to recall a time when cele was really popular in a meta before it had expertise and concentration added to it then it died out again after some profession balance changes.  And it had "more stats" then too iirc.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Chaba.5410]

Here's an old discussion on cele with some actual math.

 

 

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

What math?  I have yet to see any math here in this thread.

Well, i'd expect someone who is participating in a discussion arround numbers to be able to do some basic math themself. Values can be looked up on the wiki.

But to bring up an example - let's assume two players with the exact same build except one being full cele and the other one being full marauder (both with pack rune) hit each other with the same skill - let's say Dragon's Tooth:

Mara vs Cele: 1000 (weapon strenght) * 2348 (power) * 1,5 (skill coeff) / 2606 (target armor) = 1351,5 base dmg

Cele vs Mara: 1000 * 1814 * 1,5 / 1967 = 1383,3 base dmg.

Slight advantage for cele, which means - since they both have about the same crit dmg (~ 92%) -with some crit luck (or crit traits/vision sigil) the cele build can "burst" the mara build harder than vice versa. That's with strike dmg only and zero boons factored in, mind you. But ofc mara has ~ 25% higher crit chance, so once that is considered (assuming 100% fury uptime for both, otherwise it's more in favour of cele) mara deals about 12% more strike dmg at average (for classes with higher base stats it's ~13-15%).

At this point we are looking at a rather minor advantage for mara while not even factoring in like half of cele's stats. So let's start by adding a little bit of might. How about 10 for the mara build and 14 stacks for cele? Guess what, the difference in strike dmg is now down to ~ 2%. Almost nothing. But we still haven't factored in all the other boons that further boost both offense and defense for the cele build as well as the much better healing. Oh and don't get me started on conditions, that not only have the potential to more than double the cele builds dmg output, but can also provide even more offense and defense via soft cc/debilitating conditions.

How is a mara build supposed to be able to compete? It can't, simple as that.

The disparity in effectiveness is insane and if you take any other example the exact numbers might differ, but the overall result remains similar.

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

You say cele was fine previously.  Was it really?  I seem to recall a time when cele was really popular in a meta before it had expertise and concentration added to it then it died out again after some profession balance changes.  And it had "more stats" then too iirc.

It's popularity has varied, but it was never bad.

Also kinda funny how your "math example" shows players discussing the value of merely ~ 33% more total stats, yet here we are with the stat difference more than doubled (~ 73%) and yet players still claim it's "balanced"...

Edited April 15, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Chaba.5410]

58 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Also kinda funny how your "math example" shows players discussing the value of merely ~ 33% more total stats, yet here we are with the stat difference more than doubled (~ 73%) and yet players still claim it's "balanced"...

Why would that be funny?  I never presented that link as applicable to the current cele stats, only to show an example of a type of discussion missing in this thread.

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

How is a mara build supposed to be able to compete? It can't, simple as that.

Now do the same calculation with a skill and class that doesn't benefit from cele compared to mara.  Like, take a skill that doesn't apply conditions at all.  Or take a condition-only skill that doesn't have any power damage.  Cherry-picking specific skills only says something about those specific skills, not the gear stat.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[kooldude.7260]

On 4/14/2023 at 10:25 AM, lotus.5672 said:

Says the 1 trick shadow arts thief

Tell me I owned you without telling me

Weird that you know I play thief even though this is an alt account, but I have no clue who you even are 😂

Edited April 15, 2023 by kooldude.7260

[Zyreva.1078]

11 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Now do the same calculation with a skill and class that doesn't benefit from cele compared to mara.  Like, take a skill that doesn't apply conditions at all.  Or take a condition-only skill that doesn't have any power damage.  Cherry-picking specific skills only says something about those specific skills, not the gear stat.

It doesn't matter what skills and builds i pick. Like i didn't even factor in the burning from DT (because it ultimatively depends on cleansing), i mainly talked about the power dmg. And there are basically no "condi only" skills, pretty much all also apply more or less strike dmg. Also nobody ever said cele is the superior gear for each and every build. Ofc i wouldn't recommend using cele on something like gs/lb slb (even tho it would still be better than what most would assume), but that's irrelevant, because said gs/lb slb can't compete with cele anyways. There is no downside in building arround cele, because the disparity is just overwhelming.

Wanna prove me wrong? Show your examples ...

Edited April 15, 2023 by Zyreva.1078