Pick-Up-Group-Only Raiding On NA Isn't Dead. I Full Cleared Every Strike and Raid Encounter But 1 In Masterwork Gear On An Off-Meta Build This Week To Prove It.

[mandala.8507]

8 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

You should respect the time of the players you are running with.

I've never liked this talking point in the context of dmg output because the math just doesn't support it in any way.

Take my Dhuum kill that I linked above, for instance. If that group had replaced me for that pull because of my dmg output and found someone who could match the top dps player in the group, you know how much time they would have saved on that kill?

40 seconds.

No matter what, it would take them longer to kick me, re-list, and load someone else in than to just send the group again.

This is why if a player isn't messing up vital mechanics or if I think they can fix their mistakes and make changes to stop messing up vital mechanics in future pulls, I genuinely don't see the point of kicking them from a normal raid or strike pick up group in 2023 because their dmg is low. You can clear all these bosses with 40% of the benchmark dps from your whole squad with ease as long as people are doing the mechanics right.

And to be honest, I could make a very strong case that during this challenge, the player who's time was being wasted the most was me. Pick up groups have a lot of down time where people have to go grab food, feed pets, fix/swap gear, etc. Not to mention other people failing mechanics and wiping us. I was ready to one-shot every one of these bosses with no down-time assuming everyone else didn't mess up, but that isn't the way of things.

The irony is, they had a very experienced and reliable raider who knew the fights well, could pick up mechanics that were slacking, and who was actively rezzing playing with them. The only thing I wasn't doing was carrying them with competitive damage output.

But yeah...shame on me for wasting other people's time. They'll never get those 90 seconds per raid wing back. 😢

[Juan.6124]

On 4/17/2023 at 7:12 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Pure comedy when purists raiders claim casuals are tearing their communities down by showing how inclusive the raid experience can be while also simultaneously showing how exclusive some of the players try to make it. 

 

No one is stopping you from tagging up and doing raids with players that specifically have random gear if that's your thing. I like to play the content with like minded people who have put in some effort. 

You point out that others are exclusive. How often have you been inclusive by tagging up and accepting literally anyone and cleared raids? I have a feeling you don't even raid, you just like to take every opportunity to talk poorly about it in one way or another. 

It's like you complain that the meta of underwear is to use fresh ones every day. Yes, you can use underwear with brown spots as they will get the job done but that's disgusting. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by DirtyDan.4759

[The Boz.2038]

17 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

How would you know?

It could be a really bad dps,heal, booner in legendary gear.

If they are DPS-racing the heal support, you'd know.

[Linken.6345]

7 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

If they are DPS-racing the heal support, you'd know.

You dont really know what grade gear they were just that they dont know what they are doing,

[Nephalem.8921]

21 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

The irony is, they had a very experienced and reliable raider who knew the fights well, could pick up mechanics that were slacking, and who was actively rezzing playing with them. The only thing I wasn't doing was carrying them with competitive damage output.

But yeah...shame on me for wasting other people's time. They'll never get those 90 seconds per raid wing back. 😢

The only thing you were not doing was dps, your role. Did you wipe on encounters? Because you said you could not clear qadim.

Also look at it from another perspective. One player in a 10player group has already low impact. But what if everyone played like that? You would not lose 40sec per boss then.

You also mentioned doing mechanics but you did not do greens on dhuum. The virtu slightly below you had to do 6. Thats quite a lot of points of failure. That top virtu is also nowhere close to good performance either.

I am not sure what you wanted to proof with that masterwork troll build. Most pugs can clear with 9players. To show that most commanders dont care enough? They will add you to blacklists though to avoid you in future runs.

[The Boz.2038]

23 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

If that group had replaced me for that pull because of my dmg output and found someone who could match the top dps player in the group, you know how much time they would have saved on that kill?

40 seconds.

Absolute "carry me" mentality.

[mandala.8507]

17 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Did you wipe on encounters? Because you said you could not clear qadim.

No, the revolving door group I was in didn't really know Qadim and I didn't try to find another group doing Wing 6 to get that kill once that one called it quits. I can say pretty confidently that I wasn't responsible for unforced wipes during this challenge and that, in a few of these kills, I was the reason those groups got the successful pull.

You noted the long OLC kill before:

On 4/16/2023 at 8:15 AM, Nephalem.8921 said:

This shows why experienced players chose discord communities though. Most of these logs are unholy fiestas. 17min for olc normal? Not swapping to something not trolling after multiple wipes is just disrespectful to everyone else's time. And all of these logs have at least 1 good player in them carrying a lot of dead weight.

I was the only non-healer to survive the last 20% of the fight and was the reason it wasn't a 14-minute unsuccessful attempt.

21 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

You also mentioned doing mechanics but you did not do greens on dhuum. The virtu slightly below you had to do 6. Thats quite a lot of points of failure. That top virtu is also nowhere close to good performance either.

Yeah, it goes without saying I wasn't doing every important mechanic on every encounter. That virtuoso was one of the 3 players who were assigned greens. I don't see how them doing the role they were assigned is a point of failure. If you were talking about the one time the top virtuoso covered a green for the druid, I wouldn't call that a failure; just a hiccup that we overcame.

I had to do shields on CA even though the Commander was responsible for them because they kept messing up and wiping us. I did back warg on escort. I was clutch rezzing with my signet in a couple of these fights. I took protect on MO so my group could get their heart credit in Bastion of the Penitent.

Like, what do you want from me, dude?

If your point is that I wasn't god's gift to gaming in every conceivable way other than dps, you're right. I never said I was. I didn't even say I was doing assigned-role mechanics, just that I was aware of the raid mechanics as a whole and could pick up those that were slacking. We never had a problem with greens in the Dhuum pulls. We actually never failed one in any of our attempts. So yeah, I didn't have to step up and do them for that group.

45 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

That top virtu is also nowhere close to good performance either.

No one asked. Literally no one asked.

46 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

I am not sure what you wanted to proof with that masterwork troll build. Most pugs can clear with 9players. To show that most commanders dont care enough?

I explained the goal in the post: to showcase the NA lfg isn't dead and that you don't need to be a top player to find a group there; that lfg-only raiding is possible and I do it all the time.

48 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

They will add you to blacklists though to avoid you in future runs.

No they won't, and I wouldn't even care if they did.

[Krzysztof.5973]

Now do it again, but tell the commander very time you join that you are new to the game and don't have the gear yet, with the performance showed above. Maybe +1 it and tell them you're wearing masterworks😉

Instead of the social experiment of lying to people you're playing with and taxing everyone, prolonging the fight which causes those people to make more mistakes just prove something that was already well known. 

[mandala.8507]

25 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Instead of the social experiment of lying to people you're playing with and taxing everyone, prolonging the fight which causes those people to make more mistakes just prove something that was already well known. 

I was playing well within the range of acceptable dps for every single one of these fights and lied to no one. I'm not responsible for other people's mistakes.

[Krzysztof.5973]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

I was playing well within the range of acceptable dps for every single one of these fights and lied to no one. I'm not responsible for other people's mistakes.

Wrong and wrong. Go to https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/vg and boss by boss hit analyze 100 random logs. 
You are on the range of support, and in most cases below quickness/alac dps specs. All you did with your "It's not easy being green" was proving how inconsiderate you are with some unfortunate pug squads that you joined without disclosing you're running mw gear. 

[Sobx.1758]

I still don't get what some people are getting so bent over in this thread. Anyone caring about better dps to clear faster proobably runs dps meter anyways. Any group judging OP's dps to not be sufficient would kick them and put a lfg req for a new dps. And because of that, I also don't see the basis for the claims of op somehow doing harm to raiding community (or however it was put in the previous posts) by showing newer players that they don't need to be anywhere near benchmarks or great dps to start learning the content. Some of you say "everyone knows it", but the amount of times we correct people spreading misinformation about it on this forum alone says otherwise. YOU knew it, I knew it, OP knew it, but clearly not everyone knew it. And if, by chance, those people knew it but just wanted to fearmonger for whatever reason, this is just one more thread that clearly proves them wrong. 

 

21 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Wrong and wrong. Go to https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/vg and boss by boss hit analyze 100 random logs. 
You are on the range of support, and in most cases below quickness/alac dps specs. All you did with your "It's not easy being green" was proving how inconsiderate you are with some unfortunate pug squads that you joined without disclosing you're running mw gear. 

Did you check the log OP posted though? https://dps.report/k8XE-20230414-023318_vg In this case, did he somehow get hard carried? Did he get hard carried any more than, lets say, 1 player above him and 4 players below him? Because all you seem to be showing is that the dps range is way higher than that and sure, that's a given. But other 100 random logs don't show what was happening in his group or what dps is needed to clear content.

Do I think OP should keep doing what he did here? Absolutely not. But I still think it drives the point home and some people might be overreacting.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Krzysztof.5973]

53 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I still don't get what some people are getting so bent over in this thread. Anyone caring about better dps to clear faster proobably runs dps meter anyways. Any group judging OP's dps to not be sufficient would kick them and put a lfg req for a new dps. And because of that, I also don't see the basis for the claims of op somehow doing harm to raiding community (or however it was put in the previous posts) by showing newer players that they don't need to be anywhere near benchmarks or great dps to start learning the content. Some of you say "everyone knows it", but the amount of times we correct people spreading misinformation about it on this forum alone says otherwise. YOU knew it, I knew it, OP knew it, but clearly not everyone knew it. And if, by chance, those people knew it but just wanted to fearmonger for whatever reason, this is just one more thread that clearly proves them wrong. 

 

Did you check the log OP posted though? https://dps.report/k8XE-20230414-023318_vg In this case, did he somehow get hard carried? Did he get hard carried any more than, lets say, 1 player above him and 4 players below him? Because all you seem to be showing is that the dps range is way higher than that and sure, that's a given. But other 100 random logs don't show what was happening in his group or what dps is needed to clear content.

Do I think OP should keep doing what he did here? Absolutely not. But I still think it drives the point home and some people might be overreacting.

He specifically joined groups that did not ask for KP not the training groups. He didn't harm by doing subpar dps on a dps role, he did harm by sneaking into pug squads in masterwork for the luls. He exploited peoples' charitability for pugs. Please show me a single person who claimed you need to have near benchmark dps to start learning the content. Who says that? Not even elitists say that. 
People who claim there is some extraordinary gatekeeping going on (while trying to join high kp groups without kp) do more damage than mandala30 over here. 

[mandala.8507]

1 hour ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Wrong and wrong. Go to https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/vg and boss by boss hit analyze 100 random logs. 
You are on the range of support, and in most cases below quickness/alac dps specs. All you did with your "It's not easy being green" was proving how inconsiderate you are with some unfortunate pug squads that you joined without disclosing you're running mw gear. 

So firstly, Wingman is hilariously skewed upward and is in almost no way statistically sound data. It's self-reported, it inherently does not include the lowest levels of raiders due to it being self-reported and tied to third-party tools, and most people who submit logs there only put stuff up that paints them in a good light.

That being said, I went and looked at Cairn data and pulled 500 logs that included reapers and compared my Cairn pull to that data. The range for reaper (which has no heal or boon dps capabilities) on Wingman (which as I mentioned is skewed way up from what the actual data would be and just includes successful pulls unless otherwise requested) is:

Max: 33.952k

Quarter 3 (aka 75th percentile or top 25%): 19.693k

Median (aka 50th percentile or top 50%): 14.679k

Quarter 1 (aka 25th percentile or top 75%): 11.298k

Min: 2.66k

My pull in masterwork Valkyrie gear was:

13.232k

I fail to see how I was being inconsiderate by doing dmg output greater than or comparable to 40-ish% of successful reaper pulls of Cairn on Wingman and, let's be honest, probably median reaper dps if we had actually representative data for successful kills on Cairn.

1 hour ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

He didn't harm by doing subpar dps on a dps role, he did harm by sneaking into pug squads in masterwork for the luls.

So I didn't do any harm because there's nothing saying I have to disclose the rarity of my gear before entering a raid. Awesome. I already knew I did nothing wrong, but glad we cleared that up.

[Sobx.1758]

55 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

He specifically joined groups that did not ask for KP not the training groups.

Ok and what's wrong with that? When I play in no req groups, I lower my expectations to right about "just being able to clear it, maybe not even on the first try, who knows, who cares". People don't need to play in training groups just because they don't strive -or didn't achieve- some sort of near-perfection in their gameplay or clears. Plenty of times the no-req groups glide through content smoother than the kp groups. Plenty of times there are newer/worse players in no req groups too. I'm fine with both because I know what group I joined.

Yes he joined groups that did not ask for kp and I don't see how that's supposed to be somehow wrong here, all things considered.

55 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

He didn't harm by doing subpar dps on a dps role, he did harm by sneaking into pug squads in masterwork for the luls.

As far as I'm concerned (which admittedly is my subjective view on this thread without looking who-knows-how-deep into it), he didn't do it for the luls, he did it to clear the content while imitating newer/worse player. If I see lower dps players in the squad, I don't care why their dps is lower, I care whether or not we can clear the encounter and maybe whether or not they just basically lay on the ground and want to get dragged through the content.

55 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Please show me a single person who claimed you need to have near benchmark dps to start learning the content. Who says that? Not even elitists say that. 

I responded to posts like those on this very forum in the past. Of course "elititsts" -whatever your definition of them is- don't say that since they know it's not needed. As I explained in my post it's not exactly about "people that know". It's about "people that don't know" or those that "know, but for whatever reason try to misrepresent reality".

I'm not sure if I should link posts saying that or it will be supertoxiccallingpeopleout, so I'll just limit myself to giving an example of you commenting on people making these false claims:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/126492-strikes-dont-replace-raids-we-need-wing-8/page/2/#comment-1836341

Seems at least at some point in time you knew some people did/do spread this bullkitten about being kicked for not making near snowcrows values and whatnot.

55 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

People who claim there is some extraordinary gatekeeping going on (while trying to join high kp groups without kp)

Agreed that this is another example of misinformation some people try spreading.

[Obtena.7952]

On 4/25/2023 at 10:51 PM, DirtyDan.4759 said:

No one is stopping you from tagging up and doing raids with players that specifically have random gear if that's your thing. I like to play the content with like minded people who have put in some effort. 

OK, I know that. That has nothing to do with what I said though right? I didn't ask for anyone's 'advice' how what to do to if I want to play that way. 

On 4/25/2023 at 10:51 PM, DirtyDan.4759 said:

You point out that others are exclusive. How often have you been inclusive by tagging up and accepting literally anyone and cleared raids? 

Every time we bring someone new into a raid group to teach them. 

But sure, let's pretend what I'm saying about the absurdity of the accusers statements about the OP's attempt to 'tear down' their community isn't true because you suspect the community I play in is as exclusive as that of the people that push meta and insist on telling others how to play. 🙄

Edited April 27, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Krzysztof.5973]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Seems at least at some point in time you knew some people did/do spread this bullkitten about being kicked for not making near snowcrows values and whatnot.

That thread is giving me vietnam flashbacks... jesus. I thought about mandala and mw gear and I think I would have zero issue with him doing this a different way. Just get some build that only does 1111 rotation using normal gear. Then there is this whole debacle of him and necro... if you know, you know. Little less gloating and more advise for new players would cause more positive outcome. 

[mandala.8507]

On 4/27/2023 at 12:47 AM, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Then there is this whole debacle of him and necro... if you know, you know.

A debacle, huh. Sounds scandalous. You should share what I did that was so horrendous. I too would love to know. If you mean the fact that I understand the fundamental buildcraft of reaper better than a lot of top players, I wouldn't call that a debacle. An unfortunate reality check for them maybe, but not sure what their shortcomings have to do with me.

[Jedrik.3109]

Stop feeding him guys. He proved whatever he thinks he proved against his imaginary cabal of gatekeeping raiders.

[mandala.8507]

22 minutes ago, Jedrik.3109 said:

Stop feeding him guys. He proved whatever he thinks he proved against his imaginary cabal of gatekeeping raiders.

This entire post is about how raids aren't as gatekept as people think??? 🤨

I wish the gw2 raiding community would stop playing victim. It's embarrassing for the game.

[enigmatic.3576]

29 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

This entire post is about how raids aren't as gatekept as people think??? 🤨

I wish the gw2 raiding community would stop playing victim. It's embarrassing for the game.

You state that raids are not as gatekept as people think.  Who do you think are the ones that have been going around saying that.  Hint: not the raiders.  So who do you think are the ones actually playing victim?

[mandala.8507]

1 hour ago, enigmatic.3576 said:

So who do you think are the ones actually playing victim?

Those with eyes to see can follow the trail of vitriol back to its source.

[Obtena.7952]

10 hours ago, enigmatic.3576 said:

You state that raids are not as gatekept as people think.  Who do you think are the ones that have been going around saying that.  Hint: not the raiders.  So who do you think are the ones actually playing victim?

Seems to me that anyone claiming the OP is 'destroying their raid community' is doing EXACTLY that.  This is a history of Metapushers playing the victim by accusing non-meta players of wasting team members time or being selfish or leeching or wanting to be carried, most likely as intimidation or misinformation tactics to promote the way they think people SHOULD play. If that's not playing the victim, then nothing is. 

There isn't a problem with people dispelling the 'meta' myth and how it impacts the game. In fact, the game is designed to allow non-meta use to be successful, with good margin even. It's just that some people can't get past that fact. 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

On 4/27/2023 at 6:47 AM, Krzysztof.5973 said:

That thread is giving me vietnam flashbacks... jesus.

So you understand what I said is true? 😉 

[Buran.3796]

   Thanx fior the effort, showcases well how knownledge about the mechanics and skill weights way more than gear and builds in instanced content.

   The answers have been also very illuminating. I've not entered in a raid in more than 5 years and don't plan to.

[Krzysztof.5973]

6 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

So you understand what I said is true? 😉 

Yeah, that's probably true since he's on NA. The standards on EU are higher. If I were charitable, people on NA probably need to hear someone say something that is quite obvious for EU. 
 

8 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

to promote the way they think people SHOULD play.

You should play meta if you are new. You should play it in pugs for smooth interactions. Here is the kicker: you do not have to play it. It's better if you do, but not necessarily.