Mirage and Vindicator dodges

[Markus.6415]

16 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

If my memory doesn't fail, I not once asked for people's oppinion in this topic.

I made a request to ANet to at least add a second endurance dodge for Mirage, or replace it with a normal one for it and Vindicator.

"What say you" is meant for the devs. 

Ah I see, that explains a lot.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Are people actually making posts on open-world content..? Considering this, any changes to these specs on their dodges will drastically change their competitive play counterpart. Instead of being so narrow-minded on classes being able to "solo" open-world PvE content think about the repercussions it has on other game modes. Mirage is already struggling in the competitive sector with one dodge.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

On 4/23/2023 at 8:11 AM, Gibson.4036 said:

Why is mirage dodge a “handicap”?

Other than the PvP reduction.

I think it's because the Mirage Dodge doesn't move the character. So it's difficult to get out of AOE attacks and is reliant on timing it perfectly instead.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

4 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

I think it's because the Mirage Dodge doesn't move the character. So it's difficult to get out of AOE attacks and is reliant on timing it perfectly instead.

Mirage Cloak gives superspeed. If you want to move, quickly, you can. If you don't, you don't. 

[Infusion.7149]

33 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Mirage Cloak gives superspeed. If you want to move, quickly, you can. If you don't, you don't. 

Are you aware superspeed only works in the forward direction and it is only better than swiftness while in combat? Many WvW players do not know this so I would not be surprised if you do not.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

24 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Are you aware superspeed only works in the forward direction and it is only better than swiftness while in combat? Many WvW players do not know this so I would not be surprised if you do not.

I was aware. Running forward in superspeed with Mirage Cloak covers the same ground (300 units) in the same time (0.75s) as a dodge. Slightly less while strafing, so you may want to spin the camera. I use the action camera so camera spin is par for the course when I play. 

Fun Fact: GW2 units are pretty much equivalent to inches. So a dodge moves you 25 feet! 

[Infusion.7149]

9 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I was aware. Running forward in superspeed with Mirage Cloak covers the same ground (300 units) in the same time (0.75s) as a dodge. Slightly less while strafing, so you may want to spin the camera. I use the action camera so camera spin is par for the course when I play. 

Fun Fact: GW2 units are pretty much equivalent to inches. So a dodge moves you 25 feet! 

So you only dodge forward and use action cam? Talk about an edge case...

Most players do not use action cam (for good reason) and unless you about face with a hotkey you cannot dodge backwards with nearly the same efficacy let alone sideways.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 minute ago, Infusion.7149 said:

So you only dodge forward and use action cam? Talk about an edge case...

Most players do not use action cam (for good reason) and unless you about face with a hotkey you cannot dodge backwards with nearly the same efficacy let alone sideways.

Unlike a regular dodge, you don't have to travel the same direction during Mirage Cloak. You can bend and twist as needed and always maintain forward momentum with action camera. It's generally better to spin as you start moving if want to cover max distance in any direction, not after or during. It's definitely a new experience, but helluva fun and adaptive. Not great for classes with a lot of ground targeting tho. 

For any other class with a typical dodge, it's not an issue, because it's always 300 inches in 0.75s no matter the direction. 

[phokus.8934]

1 hour ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Mirage Cloak gives superspeed. If you want to move, quickly, you can. If you don't, you don't. 

Mirage Cloak (Speed of Sand) does not provide superspeed.  It only provides 66% movement speed as opposed to 100%.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 minute ago, phokus.8934 said:

Mirage Cloak (Speed of Sand) does not provide superspeed.  It only provides 66% movement speed as opposed to 100%.

Ah, I stand corrected. I forgot it was different. So a bit less movement than a dodge, but I'll still take it over dodging for the utility and ambush skill. 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

 

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Gaiawolf.8261
Error post.

[Gibson.4036]

Mirage has a ton of mobility. The problem is that we develop the bad habit of relying on dodge to reposition instead of primarily for the evade. Breaking that habit is good for playing more than just Mirage.

[Moradorin.6217]

16 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Mirage has a ton of mobility. The problem is that we develop the bad habit of relying on dodge to reposition instead of primarily for the evade. Breaking that habit is good for playing more than just Mirage.

Wanted to point out reposition is much of the point of dodge.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge_Instructor

I dont understand how Mirage's lack of movement "helps to reposition". Rather, Mirage's wonderful MC that replaces normal dodge is a good-and-bad situationally.

 

Benefits of Mirage Cloak (MC): attack while u dodge, you can stay in the targets face

Dangers of Mirage Cloak (MC): You cant dodge without attacking, you cannot dodge to move through and/or out of negative ground effects, as well or some times at all like a normal dodge could.

Example A: Player wants to stay in the targets face. For this I would say MC provides obvious advantage because the player can be stationary and still dodge, additionally if they have clones and are using Infinite Horizon (IH) they will also attack the opponent while they dodge.

Example B: Player wants to get out of mele range while they dodge. In this case MC has an obvious disadvantage because normal dodge has a movement component that moves the player through and completes the movement before the evade/dodge is done protecting the player. MC fades sooner and you dont move as fast. Additionally: I can dodge roll backwards and move out of danger in one stroke. MC moves backwards VERY SLOW & you cannot land attacks from ambush, clone, or any mesmer weapons unless you are facing the target.

 

Personally, I favor normalizing the number of dodges for Mirage. Of this topic I think the most significant thing is the fact that Mirage is the ONLY class in the game with one dodge in wvw/pvp and two in pve. Daredevil & Vindicator Both have continuity of play because they have the same number of dodges in pve, wvw, pve. In fact, Every spec in the game has continuity OTHER THAN MIRAGE!

 

 

 

 

Mirage had two dodges in all modes about 4 years ago. People got past it and moved on until EoD came out with Vindicator designed for one dodge which made one dodge a topic again. Then they gave VIndicator a 2nd dodge in wvw/pvp/pve and Mirage STILL has one dodge in wvw/pvp and two in pve. It ruins the continuity of play for the spec. It should be fixed.

 

A fix could be normal dodge, one dodge in all 3 modes or two+ dodges in all 3 modes. What is needed is consistentcy and continuity!

 

At this point CMC seems afraid of the topic. He mentioned Mirage's Missing dodge when they announced they would give Vindicator a 2nd dodge. Nothing since and it seems like we are running out of balance updates so as I suspected previously. I think CMC simply has demonstrated a major bias against Mirage, specifically, and Mesmer, generally. I hope it will get fixed, but I dont have much faith in the current balance team.

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[Moradorin.6217]

delete

Edited May 2, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[Gibson.4036]

Yes, dodge can be useful to reposition. But often you can also just walk out of danger. It’s easy to develop the habit of instinctively dodging out of danger when those evade frames could be saved for when they are necessary. Playing Mirage helped me evaluate all my reposition options rather than defaulting to dodge.

And yes, MC has trade offs. But that’s what they are. It’s not inherently inferior because it doesn’t reposition.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[Moradorin.6217]

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Yes, dodge can be useful to reposition. But often you can also just walk out of danger. It’s easy to develop the habit of instinctively dodging out of danger when those evade frames could be saved for when they are necessary. Playing Mirage helped me evaluate all my reposition options rather than defaulting to dodge.

And yes, MC has trade offs. But that’s what they are. It’s not inherently inferior because it doesn’t reposition.

How about when you wish to go backwards away from the target or when you have to cross through a ground target such as a Dragonhunter or ranger trap or similar ground effects you trigger if you just cross? I realize you are saying all specs can move via walk/run. Im pointing out that its miss-leading to suggest this is some kind of L2P issue about how to move a character. In that respect, your response is lacking, factually incorrect. (cause of walking backwards vs dodge backwards or dodge to cross area vs running while clicking for MC.)

[otto.5684]

On 4/25/2023 at 9:41 PM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Talk is cheap. You are going to show me in game how you handle yourself with a mirage and a vindicator in places of my choice.

Walk the walk. 

... and there is no need for insults. Is there?

You're telling me to learn to play, after all I just posted.

You didn't bother read, did you?

 

It's easy to come to the forums and gang up on people to bully them, and easy to type just about anything.

Prove it.

Simple as that.

 

For Vindicator, Battle Scars, enough said. If you do not understand what that means, yo do not give an opinion on rev.

 

Staff mirage is considered the strongest boss solo build in the entire game.

 

And I do not need to show you anything. You are the one who claims Vindicator and Mirage sucks, contrary to everyone. Burden of proof is on you. You show us a video of your struggles soloing Trash in Silver Wastes and we will teach you how to play.

 

@Buran.3796 I dunno how can you solo majority of bounties and consider yourself average. That is easy top 10% by skill level 😄. And I see you turned around a bit on Vindicator. It is very good solo. And we got a buff today 👍

[Gibson.4036]

5 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

How about when you wish to go backwards away from the target or when you have to cross through a ground target such as a Dragonhunter or ranger trap or similar ground effects you trigger if you just cross? I realize you are saying all specs can move via walk/run. Im pointing out that its miss-leading to suggest this is some kind of L2P issue about how to move a character. In that respect, your response is lacking, factually incorrect. (cause of walking backwards vs dodge backwards or dodge to cross area vs running while clicking for MC.)

Hm, not trying to say it’s a learn to play issue. But it does take adapting from how other specs play. Which is not inherently bad. And helped me be a better player.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[SoulGuardian.6203]

6 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

For Vindicator, Battle Scars, enough said. If you do not understand what that means, yo do not give an opinion on rev.

You can say what you like. Doesn't mean squat when I know 100% fact that the players that get killed the most in wvw are vindicators.

And where are mirages?

Oh. That's right. Nowhere to be seen.

And yes. Pun intended. 

6 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

Staff mirage is considered the strongest boss solo build in the entire game.

BS.

 

6 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

And I do not need to show you anything

You do.

Otherwise you're just another charlatan full of theories and your words carry no weight in my world. 

6 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

. You are the one who claims Vindicator and Mirage sucks

Liar. 

Never once i said they suck.

With this alone - you lose all credibility , and are just talking out of your backside.

 

6 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

, contrary to everyone. Burden of proof is on you.

Haha.

This was almost funny.

6 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

You show us a video of your struggles

My struggles?

Mine?

Dude. Seriously... it is obvious that you never played mirage in a pvp and wvw match.

Don't deny it. It is clear even to a child... heck, even to a baboon. 

You never tried puzzles with traps with a mirage.

That much is obvious too.

Aswell as  any proper hardcore legendary... or anything hardcore for that matter.

So please. For the love of the 6, the devs, and the mods, stop this nonsense dude. 

Really.

6 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

soloing Trash in Silver Wastes and we will teach you how to play.

You? Teach me? How to play?

Look boy... the only reason I will keep this respectful, is because I don't want to breach any rules... and I AM a respectful person, otherwise, I'd tell you where to go.

Use your imagination. 

Now get outta here. Seriously.

Go bother somebody else. 

I ain't got time for your nonsense. 

[otto.5684]

@SoulGuardian.6203 I still cannot till if you are for real or trolling. However, by your admission you said “Silver Wastes is no go zone.” How can anyone take you seriously if by your admission you are struggling in relatively easy pve stuff?

 

As for spvp/wvw you are wasting your time. The current spvp devs lack competence, and have a very clear bias against mesmer. PvP has been a trash fire for so long, I dunno why people still keep thinking it will improve. It won’t. And both mirage and vindicator were over performing, at some point, with their dodges (well… not the one dodge for mirage). It is not the issue and changing it wont solve it. Returning the second dodge, to mirage, would help.

 

And more than one poster inserted a guide video. You can search on YouTube and GW2Meta. I will be nice, and give you one pve hint. You should very rarely go below 40 endurance. You should typically use the dodge atk when your endurance is 75+. It will typically be once every 3-4 secs, in a rotation. If you do get below 50 endurance, make sure that you have an evade available. Both mirage and Vindicator have several evades and good mobility (Vindicator has a block on GS4 as well). 
 

One last thing, both Vindicator and mirage take a bit for you to get used to. I really hated vindicator early on. Now, it is my favorite EoD elite. 

 

 

[SoulGuardian.6203]

7 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

@SoulGuardian.6203 I still cannot till if you are for real or trolling. However, by your admission you said “Silver Wastes is no go zone.” How can anyone take you seriously if by your admission you are struggling in relatively easy pve stuff?

 

Silverwastes is not an easy zone for Mirages. 

Stop trying to prove otherwise and make it look like is a player issue when we all know it's the dodge.

This is getting old now; and frankly, you are beginning to get really annoying.

7 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

As for spvp/wvw you are wasting your time. The current spvp devs lack competence, and have a very clear bias against mesmer.

Thank you.

I don't see why Mirage is the only one that has to get punished with one single dodge, when Vindicator has two, and Daredevil three.

It is obvious that Mirage is not getting the same TLC the other two are.

7 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

PvP has been a trash fire for so long, I dunno why people still keep thinking it will improve. It won’t. And both mirage and vindicator were over performing, at some point, with their dodges (well… not the one dodge for mirage). It is not the issue and changing it wont solve it. Returning the second dodge, to mirage, would help.

This is why the discussion has been revolving around changing the dodges to normal ones and placing the attack moves on an F skill or utility skill.

There are ways that the dodge could be improved without overpowering the spec.

A teleport to reposition the player before the attack would be the best way to go.

Alternatively, giving it super speed and stealth with every chatter before the attack.

The number of clones chattered equals the number of seconds you gain stealth and speed.

For instance.

 

7 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

And more than one poster inserted a guide video. You can search on YouTube and GW2Meta. I will be nice, and give you one pve hint. You should very rarely go below 40 endurance. You should typically use the dodge atk when your endurance is 75+. It will typically be once every 3-4 secs, in a rotation. If you do get below 50 endurance, make sure that you have an evade available. Both mirage and Vindicator have several evades and good mobility (Vindicator has a block on GS4 as well). 
 

Yes indeed.

I know that. Thank you.

But it's all good and neat on paper.

In actual practice, them, Both specs are not as easy to master as some people say.

Now you making it look like it's a player lack of skills rather than the dodge itself being the issue, is wrong. 

The only good thing a Mirage does in WvW is as a distraction or a Decoy while in a squad... but even Specters do a much better job now of doing that.

Creating a divertion to the enemy squad so yours can stab.

Compare both Mirage and Specter.

The latter has a lot more mobility and speed.

If you are going right in the middle of the enemy squad and need to get away as fast as possible before being stunned, crippled, pulled, etc...

Specter is a much better version of mirage. 

It is still doable with mirage, and fun, but you hardly ever can make a clean exit without getting caught.

7 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

One last thing, both Vindicator and mirage take a bit for you to get used to. I really hated vindicator early on. Now, it is my favorite EoD elite. 

Sure.

I deleted my Vindicator out of frustration.

I don't think I'll ever go back to one.

As fun as they are... and that attack is awesome. 

But if you really noticed in WvW, Benders for instance... their survivability is over 90% whereas Vins is on the opposite side of the spectrum at about 10%

I have seen a ton of players change to orher specs or even core to play Rev for the remainder of the skirmish.

Wether in your squad or the enemy teams, those dodges are a disadvantage to Mirage and Vindicator.

Daredevils on the other hand are a completely different fruit basket.

They not only have three endurance bars, but also their dodges are better than the core.

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Moradorin.6217]

9 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

@SoulGuardian.6203 I still cannot till if you are for real or trolling. However, by your admission you said “Silver Wastes is no go zone.” How can anyone take you seriously if by your admission you are struggling in relatively easy pve stuff?

 

As for spvp/wvw you are wasting your time. The current spvp devs lack competence, and have a very clear bias against mesmer. PvP has been a trash fire for so long, I dunno why people still keep thinking it will improve. It won’t. And both mirage and vindicator were over performing, at some point, with their dodges (well… not the one dodge for mirage). It is not the issue and changing it wont solve it. Returning the second dodge, to mirage, would help.

 

And more than one poster inserted a guide video. You can search on YouTube and GW2Meta. I will be nice, and give you one pve hint. You should very rarely go below 40 endurance. You should typically use the dodge atk when your endurance is 75+. It will typically be once every 3-4 secs, in a rotation. If you do get below 50 endurance, make sure that you have an evade available. Both mirage and Vindicator have several evades and good mobility (Vindicator has a block on GS4 as well). 
 

One last thing, both Vindicator and mirage take a bit for you to get used to. I really hated vindicator early on. Now, it is my favorite EoD elite. 

 

 

I think you are missing obvious points the OP is making. IMO you sound like you are hard core trolling him. I know you (Otto) are an experienced player so I know you can comprehend the idea that maps that make specific use of ground effects that tick massive damage untill you reposition gives a class who doesnt move during dodge a disadvantage compared to a class who would automatically be moved from doing the dodge. Im 100% sure that is, at least part, of his point. I can see it and understand what he means almost instantly.

 

Saying that special dodges are not ALWAYS better than normal dodge isnt wrong. Some times they are better some times they are not. Its situational. I have not read every detail of the argument, but I can see that point pretty quickly. So I wouldnt say he is trolling.

 

that said to me the big issue is continuity of play for Mirage. It should have 1, 2, or 3 dodges in all 3 modes. That is your number of dodges shouldnt change when you jump from pve to pvp/wvw. No other class or spec has that ONLY MIRAGE and it was a lazy quick-fix that is now 4+ years old.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Moradorin.6217