Please change moa

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Glass players have the damage to pressure the chrono so hard they can't cast anything. If I tried using signet of humility against a herald I'd be dead before the cast goes off (and that's precisely the reason why I don't run signet of illusions either)

I don't agree with this line of reasoning, particularly because you can moa people not looking directly at you/from stealth and wipe them off of the map because landing it at all removes a large chunk of their escape options (by replacing it with cassowary skills). This is likely why the thread is as active as it is.

Power Chrono isn't overpowered, but it's also not as allergic to damage as you imply. If moa signet is for busting bunkers, I can see a use case for that, but you're gonna have to acknowledge people are getting erased frankly regardless of what build they run by nature of the skill. That's not really disputable. 

I don't have a problem with the duration -or- the skill replacement frankly, but people figured out how to chain it in a way that essentially removes a player from the game for being looked at first. There's a point to be made there.

We just had this same kind of complaint due to stealth scrapper wiping people off the map. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

I'm just waiting for Trevor Boyer to tell us why the mATs aren't being won by double power chronomancer with moa teams, if, quote:

"Just 2 of them can machine gun insta death Moa combos like every 20s on a player. At that point, clearly it is better to add +1 Support and a +1 Side Node, and then +1 w/e else you want to add."

And

"Ultimately what happens is Moa is allowing coordinated teams to perpetually benefit 5v4 the entire match, where there actually isn't counterplay for their chosen target. These Moa tactics lately are on par with straight making someone DC for the 5v4."

Edited May 19, 2023 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 5/18/2023 at 6:40 PM, apharma.3741 said:

Ignoring Spinal Shivers again, the BASE animation of ray of judgement is readable but that is more to do with the freedom of animation a focus gives you. There aren't many weapon skills with 1/2s cast time skills with a good highly telegraphed and differentiated animations especially on pistol which is kind of limited in what you can do with it. Check out the pistol skills and you'll see most use cast time to differentiate or elongate animations/skills. That's what I'm saying they should do here as there's not a huge amount you can really do with pistols and some offhands in general.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pistol

There is no such limitation, this is a game with magical abilities, you can make the skills look almost however you want (notice how Mesmer gs1 has a laserbeam). Look at Bladesworn pistol offhand, the animations are very distinct and Dragon's Roar has a clear glow on it.

On 5/18/2023 at 6:40 PM, apharma.3741 said:

Shatter "one shot" has always been a problem,

No

On 5/18/2023 at 6:40 PM, apharma.3741 said:

CS shatter is part of the topic being discussed right now, only difference is Shorts didn't need it in the video for 2 rounds.
Most elite specs are well balanced compared to their core as core is often nerfed to accommodate the multiple elite specs for every class and is usually weaker.

You may be misunderstanding me here, when I say something is "well balanced with regards to core" or similar, I mean that it is a similar power level as the core spec. So I would heavily disagree that "Most elite specs are well balanced compared to their core". 

On 5/18/2023 at 6:40 PM, apharma.3741 said:

It's been a major gripe since elite specs came out and reinforces the argument against CS and keeping distortion, not for it.

No it doesn't

On 5/18/2023 at 6:40 PM, apharma.3741 said:

The state of game is that elite specs should be stronger, going off historical treatment of elite specs.

That goes against their stated goal with elite specs (that they shouldn't be a straight upgrade). With regards to historical treatment, they have gone back-and-forth, they took pain to implement strong tradeoffs in order to fix the core-elite spec balance (like removing a pet from soulbeast, removing distortion from chrono) but then the recent balance team did a 180 on that.

On 5/18/2023 at 6:40 PM, apharma.3741 said:

Chronophantasma, yes we're in agreement because double cast mechanics are a problem and generally should be removed or toned down/have a drawback.

I do not think that is true across the board. Ammo skills can be cool sometimes. Mantras. CS. Mimic. And so on. Double cast skills are not categorically bad, Chronophantasma is bad for different reasons, for example it creates clutter (phantasm spam) and has low tactical value (and by extension, fun) plus low mechanical skill requirement for the player.

On 5/18/2023 at 6:40 PM, apharma.3741 said:

SoI was a problem in WvW, so was SoE and you could see people using the aftercast trick with CS in PvP. Even removing chronophantasma it was still a problem as you could triple cast phantasms very easily. The nerf was justified not just because of CS but CS made the problem far worse than it needed to be. Some problems do have multiple constituents.

The aftercast thing was a bug, that was bugfixed. Here is feint fate using it to double heal https://youtu.be/BhPq87T5_X0?t=275

On 5/18/2023 at 6:40 PM, apharma.3741 said:

Alacrity is less of an issue as it can be controlled reasonably easily (boon duration, tied to otherwise not good skills)

CS has a duration and a cooldown

[Terrorhuz.4695]

17 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

you're gonna have to acknowledge people are getting erased frankly regardless of what build they run by nature of the skill. That's not really disputable.

I am not going to acknowledge anything of the sorts. I showed earlier an example of a high level mesmer casting a clumsy moa and getting killed for that (because you CAN die even if you land the moa, which is what happened to Shorts in the clip I posted). Pistol5 might very well be problematic, and I've been saying that for months now, but not moa.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Shush in NA.9182]

I don't think moa is the problem.  I also don't think that mesmer is all in all currently op compared to other meta classes. But i think pistol is a problem from a general balance logic perspective.

That the tell from pistol 5 is dog tier finds general agreement but i also think a skill gives 2 seconds of a stun as reward should not have less than 3/4 casttime. That doesn't only count for mesmer but for all classes. But if you add that mesmer is a burstclass and also has access to quickness than it is even more important to have at least that casttime. That also would make adding a more visible tell to it easier, in particular easier without adding more visual clutter by big contrasts with different colours or shiny effects or an over big size of the animation.

I also think that Continuum Split should have never been allowed to reset elites. It makes getting good reward out of cs by simply doubling up elite way too easy. Excluding elites from cs would additionally give more freedom of choice and adds creativity about how to use cs for the mesmer. Atm the pressure to at least include elite use during cs is not 100% but for sure very high, because the cs value compared to one without elite is remarkable higher. 

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

1 hour ago, CK rimeiller.5014 said:

I don't think moa is the problem.  I also don't think that mesmer is all in all currently op compared to other meta classes. But i think pistol is a problem from a general balance logic perspective.

That the tell from pistol 5 is dog tier finds general agreement but i also think a skill gives 2 seconds of a stun as reward should not have less than 3/4 casttime. That doesn't only count for mesmer but for all classes. But if you add that mesmer is a burstclass and also has access to quickness than it is even more important to have at least that casttime. That also would make adding a more visible tell to it easier, in particular easier without adding more visual clutter by big contrasts with different colours or shiny effects or an over big size of the animation.

I also think that Continuum Split should have never been allowed to reset elites. It makes getting good reward out of cs by simply doubling up elite way too easy. Excluding elites from cs would additionally give more freedom of choice and adds creativity about how to use cs for the mesmer. Atm the pressure to at least include elite use during cs is not 100% but for sure very high, because the cs value compared to one without elite is remarkable higher. 

Good post, I've actually said that exact CS take as well, including the part about creativity. Here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/118657-chrono-mimic-signet-of-inspiration-suggestion/?do=findComment&comment=1719467

"why do you guys think Moa and Time Warp got so hard nerfed? It's because of Chronomancer doubling them. This has had terrible consequences for core Mesmer. Of course, you could split the functionality of the elite skills so that Time Warp would have halved duration when you are playing Chronomancer for instance, but simply disallowing elite skill resets is a far more elegant solution."

"Chrono becomes less gimmicky and more innovative uses of cont. split become viable rather than just using it for the elite every time - this will be especially beneficial in PvP."

Edited May 20, 2023 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[SlayerXX.7138]

Moa is for all intends and purposes a 6 second daze you can't cleanse or remove in anyway. 5 1/4 if you substract the extra dodge time you get. That is broken without question. To its very core.

Abusable right now? Maybe, maybe not. But moa is an inherently broken skill. It is a 6 second Daze.

Maybe lets us keep our utility bar so it is only halve a unremovable daze for 6 seconds. Only for the meme factor of Warriors juggernauting out of the chicken. 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

32 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Maybe lets us keep our utility bar

YASSS! I want to hear my character yell "For Great Justice" in a Moa voice and proceed to peck people to death 🤣

[Shush in NA.9182]

6 hours ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Moa is for all intends and purposes a 6 second daze you can't cleanse or remove in anyway. 5 1/4 if you substract the extra dodge time you get. That is broken without question. To its very core.

Abusable right now? Maybe, maybe not. But moa is an inherently broken skill. It is a 6 second Daze.

Maybe lets us keep our utility bar so it is only halve a unremovable daze for 6 seconds. Only for the meme factor of Warriors juggernauting out of the chicken. 

Confidently comparing apples with oranges. Wd

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 hour ago, CK rimeiller.5014 said:

Confidently comparing apples with oranges. Wd

Yeah moa is much stronger then a daze would be. It is 6 seconds without any of the get out of jail cards people have. You and the other mesmer seem to misunderstand. I'm no saying that moa is OP right now, but it is an inherently broken skill. 
Imagine moa on every other profession. Deatheye hitting 1 moa, leisurely sipping his diet coke tapping spotter's shot from time to time, while he watches the life leaving your body. You are unable to do a single action for 6 whole seconds. All your lifelines hidden behind the feathery menace that is the moa.

Edited May 20, 2023 by SlayerXX.7138

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

16 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I am not going to acknowledge anything of the sorts. I showed earlier an example of a high level mesmer casting a clumsy moa and getting killed for that (because you CAN die even if you land the moa, which is what happened to Shorts in the clip I posted).

A clumsily casted anything can get you killed, the issue is with options -after- getting hit by it, given it can have little to no telegraph and removes your response options.

Quote

Pistol5 might very well be problematic, and I've been saying that for months now, but not moa.

I'm of the opinion of make moa 5 a stunbreak and leave pistol 5 as it is but *shrug* 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[phixion.9428]

Weird last post for me after the thread finally came from a toxic bash thread to a let's find the real problem final. The last posts made totally sense to me:

1. Pistol 5 is also a problem without moa.

2. Moa is not the problem without cs reset to double it after opponent used its counter skills to avoid the first moa. 

3.  CS resetting elites is not only a problem with Moa elite 

Why change moa when 2 other things are the problem which don't get solved by changing moa? 

Would be a typical senseless anet move because chancing moa is less effort but a stupid move nevertheless. 

Moa is a transformation with long cast time not a cc for a reason, it is not supposed to give the opponent every tool at hand to make getting hit by moa and all the mesmers investment to hit this telegraphed skill meaningless. 

Edited May 21, 2023 by phixion.9428

[Kuma.1503]

On 5/19/2023 at 4:05 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

We just had this same kind of complaint due to stealth scrapper wiping people off the map. 

Even I was on board with toning down stealth cheese when it was Scrapper in the limelight. So many otherwise fair abilities/burst combos become degen when you pair them with stealth. 

It is amusing seeing the same people who said it was broken on scrapper defend it when it's their spec though. 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

3 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Even I was on board with toning down stealth cheese when it was Scrapper in the limelight. So many otherwise fair abilities/burst combos become degen when you pair them with stealth. 

It is amusing seeing the same people who said it was broken on scrapper defend it when it's their spec though. 

Moa into stun into burst is not a oneshot, you can dodge in moa form. It's a completely different scenario. That said, I would be fine with moa revealing you on cast (I said this earlier in the thread)

Edited May 21, 2023 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

23 hours ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Moa is for all intends and purposes a 6 second daze you can't cleanse or remove in anyway. 5 1/4 if you substract the extra dodge time you get. That is broken without question. To its very core.

Abusable right now? Maybe, maybe not. But moa is an inherently broken skill. It is a 6 second Daze.

Maybe lets us keep our utility bar so it is only halve a unremovable daze for 6 seconds. Only for the meme factor of Warriors juggernauting out of the chicken. 

It isn't broken.

Edited May 21, 2023 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

11 hours ago, phixion.9428 said:

Weird last post for me after the thread finally came from a toxic bash thread to a let's find the real problem final. The last posts made totally sense to me:

1. Pistol 5 is also a problem without moa.

2. Moa is not the problem without cs reset to double it after opponent used its counter skills to avoid the first moa. 

3.  CS resetting elites is not only a problem with Moa elite 

Why change moa when 2 other things are the problem which don't get solved by changing moa? 

Would be a typical senseless anet move because chancing moa is less effort but a stupid move nevertheless. 

Moa is a transformation with long cast time not a cc for a reason, it is not supposed to give the opponent every tool at hand to make getting hit by moa and all the mesmers investment to hit this telegraphed skill meaningless. 

Well put

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

12 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

A clumsily casted anything can get you killed, the issue is with options -after- getting hit by it, given it can have little to no telegraph and removes your response options.

I'm of the opinion of make moa 5 a stunbreak and leave pistol 5 as it is but *shrug* 

How does Moa have little to no telegraph? Or are you just talking about stealth?

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

15 hours ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

Yeah moa is much stronger then a daze would be. It is 6 seconds without any of the get out of jail cards people have.

You have Moa #5. It is very rare that I die from getting moad. In fact, sometimes you survive situations where you would otherwise have died because of getting moad (free dodge + mobility). I don't know how you guys are managing to die with regularity.

15 hours ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

You and the other mesmer seem to misunderstand. I'm no saying that moa is OP right now, but it is an inherently broken skill. 
Imagine moa on every other profession.

It would be fine. Actually, Engi already has Moa, did you forget?

15 hours ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

You are unable to do a single action for 6 whole seconds. 

Except dodge, move, moa #5, LoS.

15 hours ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

All your lifelines hidden behind the feathery menace that is the moa.

Flowery language but disconnected from reality.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

The game needs to explain the moa rotation / strategy better. Now players are clueless and just wait for it to expire or for their character to respawn as the race they were before the moafication.

[Dawdler.8521]

55 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

It would be fine. Actually, Engi already has Moa, did you forget?

Engie moa is half the duration of mesmer moa and its only available on core engie builds though.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

5 hours ago, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

The game needs to explain the moa rotation / strategy better. Now players are clueless and just wait for it to expire or for their character to respawn as the race they were before the moafication.

It kind of does iirc? The mesmer training npc in pvp turns you into a moa so you can see what the skills do.

At least, that was the case once. Idk if it is anymore. 

If you get moa'd press 5 and (if circumstance allows/you know magic bullet/mantra of distraction arent an issue) 2 to get distance. Thats a L2p thing. I need more data on the "you can be deleted before you can react to moa" angle. 

I feel like /wiki moa after getting wiped off the map should be included in the l2p angle, for that matter. 

 

5 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

How does Moa have little to no telegraph? Or are you just talking about stealth?

Yes, I am talking about specifically from stealth.

5 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I would be fine with moa revealing you on cast (I said this earlier in the thread)

If it reveals on cast I have no issue with moa period.. The only scenario that I think it can be overboard is if you get polymorphed then hit by magic bullet, setting you up for a burst -from- stealth. The agency loss is significant enough that it needs to be visible. 

Reveal on cast would be another solution to me in addition to any other single fix I responded to thus far (as in, any single one of them.). I don't think magic bullet or moa are issues on their own (and don't think magic bullet should be axed for the sake of moa), so the least intrusive adjustment would be best imo. 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Fenris.8563]

Yeah this needs to change ASAP.  At the very least, when we're turned into MOAs for 6 freaken seconds (which is a lifetime in GW2 PVP) we shouldn't take any damage or attack.  Treat it as a typical CC,  only give us are kitten hotbar so we can break the CC.   This is one of the most broken abilities in this game.  It's unavoidable that I can tell, and if you get morphed, you're dead 99% of the time as they can just burn you while you get next to nothing to survive.

[Fenris.8563]

mesmers reacting 'cOnFuSeD' on every single point here don't make you right defending this ridiculous ability lmao just saying

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Fenris.8563

[Terrorhuz.4695]

19 minutes ago, Fenris.8563 said:

It's unavoidable that I can tell

You can block it, blind it and evade it like every other skill.

[Fenris.8563]

16 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

You can block it, blind it and evade it like every other skill.

Ok so what if you don't have blind and they're in stealth?