June 9 – June 23 World Restructuring Beta

[Mabi black.1824]

12 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

So the obvious solution for anet to implement for the homers now, is to make three permanent servers separate from the WR worlds, and they permanently face each other and let all the server pride people move to those(free first transfer in! regular transfer cost after! servers always open!). Oh with the added stipulation that they're not allowed to complain about stale matchups, stacked timezones, stacked server, and outnumbered ever again.

🤭🍦

 

Certainly ironic, but also banal my friend. If someone bothers to come to the forum to tell you that with WR , while solving the balance problem, we are probably general other problems , probably unexpected, and that probably impact on a considerable number of players. I'm not writing to you that I want everything to stay in its current state.

We both know that the current mechanics in terms of balance is broken, large-scale competition is hardly credible, and it needs both WR and alliances, and when you finally become aware, you will understand that it needs these two new machines to be contextualized within a world-vs. world logic. I know better than you since I play in the EU, how much the balance can be broken in the current state. you can always take a tour of our area, and try the fantastic experience of playing 6 months without a link, while everyone goes to their alt, and those who stay strangely decide to transfer, or go on vacation.

[Slystaler.1350]

4 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

This question of yours is answered in the motivation why a player puts his time and content in our mode. It's not just moving the server's ''pride'' to the ''pride'' of the guild. If you want to know, I'm in a guild and my guild has been playing on the same server forever and I'm proud of both.

Since this game is large-scale PvP (2000 players?) who get involved in 24/7 matches my reference when playing is the server. It's the server that wins or loses the week, not my guild. If you want to stimulate players in a big competition you can only do it through the server container, not through the guild or a group of guilds.

For a long time we have been asking ANET for more balance between all the servers participating in this game mode. ( no one has ever asked for balance between guilds because it is impossible to get ) why do players want this balance? Because they are PvP players, they want to compare themselves against other players. They want to demonstrate their supremacy, their ability, their strategic intelligence etc etc.

If you make it useless in server container, what do you want to do with the balance we achieve with WR? What's your idea? On what basis or rules do we want to allow players to confront each other? What should be my motivation to participate in this large-scale mode of PVP?

We should also take care that this mode involves as many players as possible and facilitates the fact that new players can join. So if your reference is the server where you play, you will embrace everyone (single players, small guilds and large guilds) if your reference is the guild (or alliance) means deciding that this takes on an exclusive perspective or attitude. There will be someone who decides for you.

Do we want to be inclusive or exclusive in the near future? Do we want players to be able to participate in a big competition the way they choose to do it, excluding it or do we prefer someone else to decide for them if that is the right way to do it?

I think this is not fully correct. The problem for new players is really getting into WvW. The gamemode provides a lot of content and a lot of systems behind it, that are not quite easy to understand in the beginning. This is not the problem though. The problem comes from  a huge system with finding a community and getting stomped in the beginning. Those 3 things together will make it hard for new players to join the WvW community. 

Yes for some servers you will find posts, that guild xyz is looking for WvW members. But the WvW will not be GvG as your post will make it seem. We will have guilds be put in alliances and play together and communication in this is not hard. So you will always have a mix of known and unknown players around you. 

I see there was time and work invested in building up guilds and/or alliances on the server, but I feel like the new mode can bring more ppl into the game. And I don't think the battles will be smaller (at least from what I have seen in the beta). Ofc the new patch won't come out perfect, but what huge change really comes out perfect on the first try? I feel like there are so many ppl on this forum, who just doom the gamemode while playing the beta and just dooming it and not providing useful information.

[Chaba.5410]

Any of you ever play recreational sports or have children who do?  Imagine every season the players are put on the same teams no matter how many signed up to play that season.  New players get to pick the team they want and naturally pick the teams which have more players, not the ones where someone quit after last season.  The sports league continues to form teams every season this way because of "team pride".

This is what the server system has done to WvW and some of you have convinced yourself that's normal.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Twinkiwinki.2734]

Please cancel the Alliance system finally. Almost nobody want that system. Start a ingame Poll where people which enter WvW can vote, if they want to have this System or not and you will see the most of your Players dont want it. Its absolutely annoying. 

 

Bring XP Events for WvW for normal matchups and stop this.. by the way, the alliances in our matchup are unbalanced on a incredible Level. The normal matchups are more balanced then that.

 

#CancelAlliances and ask your Community ingame about this Feature and you will see easily that the most Players doesnt want it. The 0,0003% Players which are activ here are not the Main Part of your Community. 

 

Thanks.

[Dawdler.8521]

43 minutes ago, Twinkiwinki.2734 said:

Start a ingame Poll where people which enter WvW can vote

Guessing it would be about as interesting as the downstate polls after every downstate week where a very vocal group always claim it should be deleted and that no one want downstate... yet polls show a majority in favor of keeping it. 

By the logic of most people being on loosing teams and thus claiming that world restructure is a failure, if they are winning then world restructure must be a great success and neutral for the mid team.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Ricky.4706]

the problem with the alliance system is that it's based on a "hardcore" mentality - some of us are casual players that don't want to pretend we joined the military for a simple game that i enjoy roaming solo or just running with a group. at random. - the servers dumped the casual players into constantly outnumbered matches - not fun.  I don't want to join a guild that is going to demand practice and attendance, require me to use their approved builds and follow commanders on demand.  some people do,  and i like fighting against them lol -  but this beta balance is penalizing me for not joining a wvw global super power that I'd have more fun destroying as a peasant.  more glory as the underdog - raises pitchfork-

 

 

[Dawdler.8521]

8 hours ago, Ricky.4706 said:

the problem with the alliance system is that it's based on a "hardcore" mentality - some of us are casual players that don't want to pretend we joined the military for a simple game that i enjoy roaming solo or just running with a group. at random. - the servers dumped the casual players into constantly outnumbered matches - not fun. 

Thats not how random works, lol.

[Ricky.4706]

then whatever they are randomly doing is consistently making the matches i'm in outnumbered.  had more fun with my server.

[Chaba.5410]

Randomly always outnumbered.

[Dawdler.8521]

4 hours ago, Ricky.4706 said:

then whatever they are randomly doing is consistently making the matches i'm in outnumbered.  had more fun with my server.

I dont know maybe Anet is specifically targeting you at random.

[Slystaler.1350]

16 hours ago, Twinkiwinki.2734 said:

Please cancel the Alliance system finally. Almost nobody want that system. Start a ingame Poll where people which enter WvW can vote, if they want to have this System or not and you will see the most of your Players dont want it. Its absolutely annoying. 

 

Bring XP Events for WvW for normal matchups and stop this.. by the way, the alliances in our matchup are unbalanced on a incredible Level. The normal matchups are more balanced then that.

 

#CancelAlliances and ask your Community ingame about this Feature and you will see easily that the most Players doesnt want it. The 0,0003% Players which are activ here are not the Main Part of your Community. 

 

Thanks.

Maybe instead of claiming that only that small amount of players really want those changes, provide something to prove it. If there is really that little of players, that want this change, this post would be so much bigger. People tend to use the forums more, when they want something different (in this case the alliance system not happening). 

You are making claims and provide next to no information than your personal feeling. You don't look beyond your bubble. 

That the alliance system is not perfect, as it is right now, can everyone see. But just because you have a bad matchup after being on an active WvW server that long, does not make the system bad.

I would love to see a vote ingame though. So maybe some of the WvW players can get a reality check.

[Johje Holan.4607]

On 6/12/2023 at 10:21 AM, Image.8630 said:

ks for answer but I have no clue what you are talking about.  Select what, where ?  Never heard of any of this. 

Hope you found it already.  But if not, I see it on a tab on the WvW window.  Just a check box to select which guild to use for WvW sorting.

On 6/12/2023 at 11:01 AM, Meva.8327 said:

Therefore, we cannot blame the guild splitting to people not aware of how to do the WvW beta guild selection. It was a buggy beta even before it started, as it has been a perfect pattern of bugs for years.

Oh definitely there are bugs that assign people/guilds to teams.  But there are also people like Image who didn't check the box.  It would be helpful for Anet to be able to tell which is which.

[avexis.3918]

as someone who wvw since 2012, alliance beta seems like it makes wvw worse every beta.. wvw suddenly turns into a massive Blobfest.. and half of the alliance servers, including mine, are left with mostly inactive guilds, wvw has become a numbers game more than skill, especially in alliances, alliances just turns stacked alliances into the new maguuma/blackgate where one server spawn camps the other 2 all week and the other 2 just stop playing cuz its not fun to just get killfarmed all day.. and when devs like Roy support that kind of behaviour by supporting gameplay and playstyles that are fun for him and his squad, but nobody else, it's a bit concerning.  I thought anet stated they were against behaviour like maguumas, but all alliance does is enable and almost force the maguuma style gameplay that most players don't enjoy playing against and anet has stated they don't support, just like they didn't support my gvg guild back in core game, and now all the sudden there's a community warlord title and mists arena? after 11 years that's all the gvg rewards you can muster? you still don't even get any rewards for doing edge of the mists, which is half of why it's been dead for 10 years, wvw is already the least profitable game mode when it comes to rewards and currencies, and EOTM you get almost nothing.. all it does is give some measly supply, so when everything is queued like on reset night, or alliance beta weeks.. people just go pve instead, so EOTM is basically just a vast ghost town that occasionally has people use its new arena that ironically made obsidian sanctum equally as dead of a map, and that's about it.

also, as a warrior main.. warrior is already not in its best place in wvw after both berserker and spellbreaker have been netfed a dozen times.. its clinging on to viability by a thread in wvw, so nerfing spellbreaker for the 20th time isn't going to help, and berserker is already starting to drop in ratings as a dps (3.9 on metabattle) so unless the new arc divider is better than the old one, the new patch is just a giant middle finger to wvw warrior mains cuz we've already been clinging to viability from nerf after nerf since pof, and that's no Bueno, don't want warrior to end up like thief and be useless in zeros, cuz at least thief is good at roaming, warrior would be left unusable in wvw with all these nerfs.

and looking at all these alliance groups sit at 1200 range for half an hour doing nothing, I feel like melee classes need more love than hate, cuz ranged stalemates get boring real fast, and every alliance beta seems to be either getting steamrolled by a squad 50% bigger than yours all night, or the 1200 ranged stalemates that last way longer than they should where nothing gets accomplished, cuz both of those things are not a good, or fun, state of world vs world, and even with all these new "bags of gear" and lockbox/vendor rewards and random bonus event rewards, the ticket/gold grind is still much slower when someone can hop in pve and hey legendary items and gold in a quarter of the time for a tenth of the effort

Edited June 18, 2023 by avexis.3918

[Dawdler.8521]

5 minutes ago, avexis.3918 said:

wvw has become a numbers game more than skill

Hahaha this is like the weekly complaint threads on the forums.

In terms of the current match status, all EU tiers are moderatly even, 25%ish score variance with decently even kdr. NA looks worse though, reaching 40% score variance and more consistently extreme kdr.

I mean it's exactly like normal WvW, but you get the idea.

[avexis.3918]

13 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Hahaha this is like the weekly complaint threads on the forums.

In terms of the current match status, all EU tiers are moderatly even, 25%ish score variance with decently even kdr. NA looks worse though, reaching 40% score variance and more consistently extreme kdr.

I mean it's exactly like normal WvW, but you get the idea.

yea I know what your saying, back In the day before nomads and minstrels gear existed, it was very possible to win outnumbered fights, but ever since the introduction of minstrels gear and support specializations, it's become a lot harder. 15 people can't take on 50 when that squad of 50 has 10 minstrels firebrands and vindicators, cuz they can sustain through the damage of 15 players quite easily and half of them run resurrect skills like illusion of life or signet of mercy.. now it's just a 1200 range bunker fest half the time.

let's not forget gw2 was marketed as a game without the "mmo holt trinity" of tanks healers and dps, thats why they gave every class their own heal skill and dodges, yet here we are with raid tanks, support/healer classes

 

so yes although this is my first forum post I don't doubt that's a daily complaint, cuz a vast majority of the fight community can only muster 15-30 players worth their salt in wvw fights, and getting ran over by 70 minstrels firebrand pve players holding w and pressing 1 kinda takes the skill out of it when even the top gvg guilds fold to a squad twice their size in most situations.. its certainly still possible to zergbust, I still do it, but its much harder than before, and the bigger the numbers gap, the less chance you have at winning.. therefore yes unfortunately its a numbers game. when it's even numbered is when skill comes into play, you could take any 60 players and throw then at 15 top spvp players and they'd lose out of sheer numbers, that's just how it is. but if you lose 50v50, that's a skill issue. unfortunately on NA squads of 50 are extremely rare even for pve guilds ppt-training during off hours, and when they do exist it's either a pug squad, or 2 fighr guilds merged into 1 squad, which is basically what people are doing for alliances anyways, everyone is aware at this point about the mass guilds where several guilds combine into one to represent for the alliance beta, while that's kind of the point of alliances, it's also what has created this unfun, blobby numbers game that has happened every alliance beta to date

Edited June 18, 2023 by avexis.3918

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, avexis.3918 said:

yea I know what your saying, back In the day before nomads and minstrels gear existed, it was very possible to win outnumbered fights, but ever since the introduction of minstrels gear and support specializations, it's become a lot harder. 15 people can't take on 50 when that squad of 50 has 10 minstrels firebrands and vindicators, cuz they can sustain through the damage of 15 players quite easily and half of them run resurrect skills like illusion of life or signet of mercy.. now it's just a 1200 range bunker fest half the time.

let's not forget gw2 was marketed as a game without the "mmo holt trinity" of tanks healers and dps, thats why they gave every class their own heal skill and dodges, yet here we are with raid tanks, support/healer classes

 

so yes although this is my first forum post I don't doubt that's a daily complaint, cuz a vast majority of the fight community can only muster 15-30 players worth their salt in wvw fights, and getting ran over by 70 minstrels firebrand pve players holding w and pressing 1 kinda takes the skill out of it when even the top gvg guilds fold to a squad twice their size in most situations.. its certainly still possible to zergbust, I still do it, but its much harder than before, and the bigger the numbers gap, the less chance you have at winning.. therefore yes unfortunately its a numbers game. when it's even numbered is when skill comes into play, you could take any 60 players and throw then at 15 top spvp players and they'd lose out of sheer numbers, that's just how it is. but if you lose 50v50, that's a skill issue. unfortunately on NA squads of 50 are extremely rare even for pve guilds ppt-training during off hours, and when they do exist it's either a pug squad, or 2 fighr guilds merged into 1 squad, which is basically what people are doing for alliances anyways, everyone is aware at this point about the mass guilds where several guilds combine into one to represent for the alliance beta, while that's kind of the point of alliances, it's also what has created this unfun, blobby numbers game that has happened every alliance beta to date

Its the same players playing WvW normally that play now and in terms of population all the teams should be more even than the previous worlds, so if there alot of new "PvE" people blobbing... that would be kind of great for WvW? I guess? Unless of course it's the same people blobbing, as usual.

I mean it's unlikely they come for the loot 🤔

The whole balance issue and class/minstrels/boonblob/celes is another thing though.

[Saucy.1547]

Please consider continuing to buff the WvW weekly and Daily activities by granting WvW Skirmisher Tickets. Each weekly step should reward 100 tickets and the Daily should reward 15 tickets (305 a week, 80% increase in availability). This should significantly increase active team based WvW play by reducing the time gate for legendary armors. At baseline it takes 16-20 hours to complete the WvW chests for 365 tickets. Adding tickets into a weekly and daily mechanic should keep the game mode more active by increasing casual player count, and rewarding hardcore players. WvW legendary armor time investment is far slower (16-20 hours a week for 22 weeks)to grind versus PvP (22 weeks at 30min-1 hour daily) or PvE (6 weeks at 8 hours a week).

Edited June 18, 2023 by Saucy.1547

[Ricky.4706]

11 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I dont know maybe Anet is specifically targeting you at random.

and this helps beta feedback how ?   it doesn't,  nothing about your responses has been helpful or relevant in any way.  I'm saying outnumbered isn't balanced.  that should be common sense.   you also gave a great example of why i wouldn't join a wvw guild or alliance to deal with this kind of mentality.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Ricky.4706

[Ricky.4706]

Anet,  please make the pug server games a force to contend with,  it's really fun gating people like the wvw big bad alliance types. don't make me side with them,  i play games to get away from that. ❤️

[Dawdler.8521]

1 minute ago, Ricky.4706 said:

and this helps beta feedback how ?   it doesn't,  nothing about your responses has been helpful or relevant in any way.  I'm saying outnumbered isn't balanced.  that should be common sense.  

Claiming that the sorting algorithm intentionally dumps casuals on outnumbered teams for the apparent purpose of making them loose even more isnt particularly good feedback either. 

Random is as random does.

A third (33%) of the teams WILL loose. This isnt anything new or strange. Anet doesnt control that, not in regular WvW nor with world restructure. And when one side starts to loose, they have a tendancy to give up even more and stop taking initiatives to actually do something.

Heck you even see it per map with the WINNING teams when a zoneblob absolutely rampage through your objectives with little opposition, you just dont have anything. Every one of them probably think they're the best ever defeating the enemy with ease. But then an hour later your side gets enough players to absolutely CRUSH them because they where lazy and careless only relying on overwhelming numbers. And then you never see them again that evening.

Players doing player things.

[Leger.3724]

So First Haven - week 2 first 3 days - Friday-Sunday.

We were badly outnumbered the entirety of primetime so 6pm EST until now 9:30pm EST

Assuming this means we won last week's matchup and got stuck with the better performers who clearly have way more people.

Once again we win the dead hours so I'm sure things are great if you live in Australia or Europe but if you play more regular NA hours you're kittened unless it's the tail end of PST.

It would be interesting if Arena Net could explain the matchmaking and alliance making logic. Was this a simple "each server gets 500 players"? Did they account for who checked wvw and who didn't? How many hours those players put into WvW when they check that box?

Like I said - first priority is to keep this reward system, keep the experience boost so new players can catch up to older ones and maybe look to expand tickets further.

Second and third steps might be - what criteria are we using to determine these new alliance servers? How can we rework this ridiculous combat system to something more straightforward and understandable for casual and new players so we can increase the number of players playing?

 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Leger.3724

[Ricky.4706]

all valid points -  maybe what we need is a pug server system -  where team a and b can be fixed with wvw guilds as it is now -  but the pug server is joined by not joining wvw with a guild  and is more fluid and not fixed - a hot join-  more like pve - "this map is empty,  join a more active pug server" - all land claims go to [Pug] .  - my original point remains -  constantly being outnumbered is not a good balance for casual players.  -  pugs need to be a threat -  and making sure the pug server is constantly full would do that.

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Ricky.4706

[Mabi black.1824]

On 6/17/2023 at 3:59 PM, Slystaler.1350 said:

I feel like there are so many ppl on this forum, who just doom the gamemode while playing the beta and just dooming it and not providing useful information.

If you make a criticism or observation about a possible problem you see, it does not mean that you are condemning this development work. It means you're asking for more. If someone takes the trouble to answer every now and then, we also avoid unnecessary misunderstandings. Also because if we combine the technical capacity of development with the capacity for community participation, we can only do something good, and perhaps avoid some unexpected problems.

If I may tell you, WR and alliances are indispensable to make WVW more beautiful. 10-year-old servers are boring, having the opportunity to redo them periodically is certainly more beautiful, more stimulating, less obvious. but 8 weeks is too little. Players want confrontation, they want a season to play, they want more time to build their seasonal community. understand how all those small pieces can best express themselves . Trying one way doesn't bring results? Then you will try another way. To do this takes a minimum time. And my opinion is a 12-month season. As in the great sports competitions.

[Ya Ya Yeah.7381]

What kind of feedback was Anet looking for in this forum? The OP doesn't clearly state. It has been my experience with betas that they are usually for reporting bugs and minor issues. This feels more like an alpha with no request for feedback or procedures on how to do it.

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 6/18/2023 at 9:46 PM, Leger.3724 said:

So First Haven - week 2 first 3 days - Friday-Sunday.

We were badly outnumbered the entirety of primetime so 6pm EST until now 9:30pm EST

Assuming this means we won last week's matchup and got stuck with the better performers who clearly have way more people.

Once again we win the dead hours so I'm sure things are great if you live in Australia or Europe but if you play more regular NA hours you're kittened unless it's the tail end of PST.

It would be interesting if Arena Net could explain the matchmaking and alliance making logic. Was this a simple "each server gets 500 players"? Did they account for who checked wvw and who didn't? How many hours those players put into WvW when they check that box?

Like I said - first priority is to keep this reward system, keep the experience boost so new players can catch up to older ones and maybe look to expand tickets further.

Second and third steps might be - what criteria are we using to determine these new alliance servers? How can we rework this ridiculous combat system to something more straightforward and understandable for casual and new players so we can increase the number of players playing?

 

 

They are various details on the website with the logic. Going to generalize a little here so if you want a more details view I would hit up the News section of the website to read direct details or go and hit the wiki to get to the links faster.

Bear in mind in the sorting we do not have the Alliance portion in yet. The general concept that was stated in the past is that each player has a history of play time over weeks to kind of come up with an average. If in an Alliance that time and user count would be added into it. If not then that time would assigned to the guild, if not guilded the information is left on players. Note none of this is on time zone, though that attribute was stated as something they may look into down the road. A general world size will be determined as needed based on active players.

Worlds are then sorted by trying to divide out Alliances of equal size across all the worlds. Once Alliances have been placed then guilds based on similar totals would be placed around the worlds with an eye on total world populations as the they are divided out. Last all the single players are then likewise divided across the world trying to handle both population and playtime balances in mind.

They did talk some about ways for predicting server placement but the system after week one uses the same +1/-1 movement system. During the normal relink weeks we normally see some strange tier placements and sudden tier shifts and then its weeks of servers moving to where they should be. So for the beta and matchmaking its hard to tell how this worked out compared to normal since even just the normal relink showed servers going from T1 to T4 right after a relink and then things taking weeks to bounce back around. 

Hope that helps.