June 9 – June 23 World Restructuring Beta

[Dawdler.8521]

3 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Just read the FAQ.  There's no proof that they're doing anything different during betas than iterating towards their published design description.

What FAQ? Wiki? 

If so then it's quite clear if you listen to the video they are talking about a future where it's gone live and they can look at things like this. When talking "activity", it was more about all kinds of stuff - guild size, coverage, even PPT like the holding objectives. Not just playtime.

They even mention that the sorting will be very basic/simple at first ie before world restructure go live... Because all the data you need kind of require it.

Grouch specifically says: "Basicly we will create a score we use for matchmaking."

Which is exactly what I meant with "weight".

[Chaba.5410]

12 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

What FAQ? Wiki? 

If so then it's quite clear if you listen to the video they are talking about a future where it's gone live and they can look at things like this. When talking "activity", it was more about all kinds of stuff - guild size, coverage, even PPT like the holding objectives. Not just playtime.

They even mention that the sorting will be very basic/simple at first ie before world restructure go live... Because all the data you need kind of require it.

Grouch specifically says: "Basicly we will create a score we use for matchmaking."

Which is exactly what I meant with "weight".

The World Restructuring FAQ in this forum and linked in the "Library" pinned topic.  It used to be a pinned topic itself.

Player stats are collected constantly, not only during betas.  Data is the least of the reasons why additional variables wouldn't be iterated in yet.

[Dawdler.8521]

23 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

The World Restructuring FAQ in this forum and linked in the "Library" pinned topic.  It used to be a pinned topic itself.

Player stats are collected constantly, not only during betas.  Data is the least of the reasons why additional variables wouldn't be iterated in yet.

That's from 2018 so quite old compared to the 2021 Q&A which make no mention about playtime from what I can tell even when talking about how "simple" and "basic" it is but OK I'll stop talking about about the possibility of it being random. 

On the upside my other comment would still stand then - everyone complaining about outnumbered are the ones not performing to spec, lol.

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

That's from 2018 so quite old compared to the 2021 Q&A which make no mention about playtime from what I can tell even when talking about how "simple" and "basic" it is but OK I'll stop talking about about the possibility of it being random. 

On the upside my other comment would still stand then - everyone complaining about outnumbered are the ones not performing to spec, lol.

Need to go back and catch that one again.

One of the 2021 does though:

"Matchmaking will initially use factors such as WvW participation and playtime to place players, guilds, and alliances on teams, but we’re open to adding additional variables to matchmaking (e.g., time zone) once we’ve ironed out the initial kinks with the system."

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/studio-update-world-restructuring-and-the-future-of-world-vs-world/

 

[TheGrimm.5624]

3 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Or you can just read what Anet has published on how they are designing the system.

Agree here.

For anyone, the Wiki team has done a great job of trying to grab the info as it comes out to consolidate it. If you are following this thread and want to more info directly take a look at:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Alliances

This has a lot of good info and links to the blog posts that you can read directly for more info.

[TheGrimm.5624]

3 hours ago, Cyanophyta.6345 said:

What I'm getting from this thread:

 

Players choose a guild, and guilds can choose other guilds to be together in the same alliance. Alliances in turn are assigned to teams based on play hours. Players without guilds chosen get assigned to a team, also based on the total play hours of the team. The assignment process is random but still based on the player's play hours. The goal is to create teams with roughly equal play hours. How the algorithm "sorts" unguilded players and alliances into teams isn't actually known but is based on play hours. In other words, much of this talk about how alliances actually "work" is actually conjecture and probably only the devs working on this know how it actually works, because they're the only ones with access to the sorting algorithm and the data from the beta test. 

Would need to find the reference link again, but the overall idea is how many players. How many players per server. After that how many tiers do we have. Now start sorting. Calculate Alliance based on players and their playtimes. Rank them from that, sort them. Now same for guilds not in Alliances, players and play time. Rank them sort them. Now layer in the players not in Guilds and Alliances, rank them sort them out.

Same concept would work with Alliance and Guilds sorts but I will use un-guilded players in the example though they are last to be sorted:

The bold part, picture more round robin. I have 10 players that play 8 hours a week, ok each server gets one, now I have 8 players that play 7 hours a week, 7 servers each get one. I would have to find the reference but it is also trying to keep track of number of player for each server as another variable trying to keep the player count in some line to account for players playing more than then their average numbers until their average can be adjusted for the next sort. 

So some of what people are seeing as 'I was randomly placed and not with my friend' could be the fact that 2 friends both playing the same 10 hours a week were split since they were in the same mix so two different servers each got one of them. Hence why some people have been trying to create mock Alliances quickly before beta to keep the larger grouping of guilds together. So if anything if un-guilded people want to stick together they at least need to form guilds to do else they very well may be divided during sorts.

Hope that help.

[blp.3489]

8 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Matchmaking will initially use factors such as WvW participation and playtime to place players, guilds, and alliances on teams, but we’re open to adding additional variables to matchmaking (e.g., time zone) once we’ve ironed out the initial kinks with the system."

The fact that they aren't using time zone, or more precisely the time of day you have historically played is enough to potentially put you on maps where you are outnumbered as there is nothing to prevent you from being placed on a team where very few of your teammates play during the same times as you.

While it isn't truly random, if you sort players by the number of seconds played in a given period of time the overall order will clearly be sorted but the order of adjacent entries may be nearly random as it can depend on the precise times they signed on and off which will have a lot of unpredictability in it.

[Doggie.3184]

Can we get Daily WvW Objective Defender removed now; since the difficulty of successfully getting defense credit is sky high since it's nerf and is likely staying that way forever?

[GersonSmash.1234]

I'm missing the team thing already. My server is not wvw hardcore, and I joined it in the game launch

[Mabi black.1824]

as usual I address the guys from anet, who put their hard work into this project. dear guys, i played the 2 weeks of beta, i selected a big community guild to still feel at ''my home'' but it didn't work very well. and the feeling of coming back to your server on friday night, feeling you among your own people is something i can't describe well.

you guys must try to understand the added value of the server. the different factions. players who identify themselves to their server. hence the reason, being transported and stimulated to put your own time and content.

Of course, your community of players has explicitly asked you for more balance between all servers. a good portion of us didn't intend to wipe servers to achieve this. many of us thought you would fix it in eu , where 3 servers get different treatment. rather than a new and targeted transfer control, etc etc.

I believe alliances is a new and useful tool in the mode. and i also think wr is something that can work. it periodically gives you the option to reset wvw and start all over again.

Now, how these new wvw tools are to be utilized I feel is an open discussion between you in development and your gaming community. or we really risk leaving many players behind.

sincere and transparent as always, I trust in your feedback.✌️

[Zok.4956]

On 6/22/2023 at 1:15 AM, Chaba.5410 said:

This is not how the system works and you are intentionally misusing the word "random".  All teams are formed by attempting to equalize playhours between all teams.

It's not random in a mathematical or statistical sense, as Anet's software hopefully works deterministically if it has no bugs.

But it's random in the sense that the random people who haven't joined a squad but are running around near the squad are referred to as "randoms" from players in the squad.

The (hopefully) deterministic and non-random algorithm places you on a server/team not only with players of your choice (guild, alliance), but also with random people.

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Zok.4956

[Zok.4956]

On 6/22/2023 at 7:35 PM, TheGrimm.5624 said:

"Matchmaking will initially use factors such as WvW participation and playtime to place players, guilds, and alliances on teams, but we’re open to adding additional variables to matchmaking (e.g., time zone) once we’ve ironed out the initial kinks with the system."

The "but we’re open to adding" just means that they actually have some basic ideas, but themselves do not really know whether and how they will ever solve the problem of population imbalance. But solving the population imbalance and "night capping" was what started this project in the first place a long time ago.

So they started this big world restructuring project and probably some devs hope it will never be completed so no one can confirm that it doesn't work better than the old one. That's perhaps why this project was canceled internally for years without telling us.

 

[Chaba.5410]

2 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

It's not random in a mathematical or statistical sense, as Anet's software hopefully works deterministically if it has no bugs.

But it's random in the sense that the random people who haven't joined a squad but are running around near the squad are referred to as "randoms" from players in the squad.

The (hopefully) deterministic and non-random algorithm places you on a server/team not only with players of your choice (guild, alliance), but also with random people.

 

That's a better way to describe the team placement methodology: deterministic.

"Unorganized" would be synonymous with "randoms" and has little to do with how players are placed on a team.  Organization will always beat the unorganized.  A game developer can't make players organize, only give them to tools to do so.  The current server system gives an illusion of organization because some names look familiar.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Efar.8153]

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Edited July 5, 2023 by Efar.8153
pls delete