Stories Locked Behind Raids [Merged]

[zealex.9410]

Let alone that a story mode would basically double the places where the evil elitists can steal my private data. As well as the keys to my house and my taimi altar.

[Brynioch.1873]

@CharJC.8365 said:After reading so many pages of thoughts and criticism I have simply come to one conclusion, and I have to agree. A mode for all, either in adding in a mode for easier play or making all the classes viable in some way, though, I do believe all classes are viable, its just the 1% that need to stroke that e-kitten and follow some persons meta as if Moses came and delivered it to them.

Personally, as a owner of a company, I would much rather "attempt" to at least appease the greater whole, then the 1% that may or may not stick around. Making a mode that welcomes new people and people with disabilities, such as deafness which in turn limits the use of TS and Discord, (guilty), would in my opinion make for a much larger audience and an overall greater experience for both new and old players alike.

Raids already appease more than 1%. They also appease the greater whole of players who are the target audience. All classes are already viable. Just not all builds and not every class is optimal on every boss. So I guess everything is fine and we don't need a change.

[Draco.9480]

why ya complaining about content locked in more difficult? why don't ya complain about imbalance of classes and injustice? why people complain how they can't get their loot cuz they don't like zis game mode or zat game mode and don't play zis or zat game mode. raids are great and if ya don't like it then don't play it. stop being special snowflakes that want everything without making any effort.people should complain on more important stuff like 2k gems for mount skin or high differences between necro and others and not their priveleges.

[CptAurellian.9537]

@CharJC.8365 said:After reading so many pages of thoughts and criticism I have simply come to one conclusion, and I have to agree. A mode for all, either in adding in a mode for easier play or making all the classes viable in some way, though, I do believe all classes are viable, its just the 1% that need to stroke that e-kitten and follow some persons meta as if Moses came and delivered it to them.

Personally, as a owner of a company, I would much rather "attempt" to at least appease the greater whole, then the 1% that may or may not stick around. Making a mode that welcomes new people and people with disabilities, such as deafness which in turn limits the use of TS and Discord, (guilty), would in my opinion make for a much larger audience and an overall greater experience for both new and old players alike.

As Miellyn already pointed out, raids are played by many more than the infamous 1%. By the way, could we please bury that stupid non-argument? The only data we have, gw2efficiency, solidly points at a range of 10-20% who are (probably) raiding. When I look at the distribution of fractal, PvP or WvW ranks, I don't get the impression that we have a substantially greater amount of players who are actively playing those modes. Not to forget that they have been around for much longer than raids, which inflates the statistics.

With such numbers, the "appease the greater whole" argument falls apart. How many of the non-raiders would be interested in raids at all? Certainly not all. Would we lose a bunch of raiders if raids suddenly became even more faceroll than they (except challenge modes) already are? Certainly. The big question is: Would the number of players retained by easymode raids be greater than the number lost? No one knows for sure, but there are good reasons to believe that ANet's assessment (no advantage of easymodes) is correct. In the end, all the different game modes retain some fraction of the total playerbase. There's no need to try to appease everyone with everything, because that method simply does not work.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Beorn Raukar.4328 said:

@Chay.7852 said:You could solo the uw in GWC with heroes in normal mode and maybe even in hard mode - didnt try since at the time you could take 7 heroes i didnt play that much anymore. And you could kill all the trash mobs solo - i did it several times, it was something like my living room. So it means yes, everyone could finish the uw if ppl wanted.

From me Thumb down, Anet for making a raid out of the UW - it was an Elite Mission, why didnt you keep it that way?

"everyone could finish the uw if ppl wanted." the same can be said about GW2 raidsSolo? I don't think so.

[Chris McSwag.4683]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Beorn Raukar.4328 said:

@Chay.7852 said:You could solo the uw in GWC with heroes in normal mode and maybe even in hard mode - didnt try since at the time you could take 7 heroes i didnt play that much anymore. And you could kill all the trash mobs solo - i did it several times, it was something like my living room. So it means yes, everyone could finish the uw if ppl wanted.

From me Thumb down, Anet for making a raid out of the UW - it was an Elite Mission, why didnt you keep it that way?

"everyone could finish the uw if ppl wanted." the same can be said about GW2 raidsSolo? I don't think so.

It's an MMO, not a single player game.

[Chay.7852]

In gw2 you cant do almost nothing solo in the raids, in GW1 you could clear it completly (no quests), you could do some of the 10 quests.. you could duo it and do more of the quests or even finish it - everything on your own pace. No timer telling you have to finish in 8 min. Thats one of the biggest differences imo. I remember many evenings when we (me and 1-2 other guildies/friends) went in the UW and started whithout the intention to finish it, just to see how far we can get, tested new builds and still came out with loot, ectos etc and had a lot of fun. I did speed runs there as well.. but i also enjoyed some chilled and funny runs ^^

And.. before someone misunderstands me, im not against raids per se i only would love to have more diversity when its about instanced/group content and since the UW was an elite mission back then, it would have been nice to have it like that now in GW2 too.

[Solo.6873]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@CharJC.8365 said:After reading so many pages of thoughts and criticism I have simply come to one conclusion, and I have to agree. A mode for all, either in adding in a mode for easier play or making all the classes viable in some way, though, I do believe all classes are viable, its just the 1% that need to stroke that e-kitten and follow some persons meta as if Moses came and delivered it to them.

Personally, as a owner of a company, I would much rather "attempt" to at least appease the greater whole, then the 1% that may or may not stick around. Making a mode that welcomes new people and people with disabilities, such as deafness which in turn limits the use of TS and Discord, (guilty), would in my opinion make for a much larger audience and an overall greater experience for both new and old players alike.

As Miellyn already pointed out, raids are played by many more than the infamous 1%. By the way, could we please bury that stupid non-argument? The only data we have, gw2efficiency, solidly points at a range of 10-20% who are (probably) raiding. When I look at the distribution of fractal, PvP or WvW ranks, I don't get the impression that we have a substantially greater amount of players who are actively playing those modes. Not to forget that they have been around for much longer than raids, which inflates the statistics.

With such numbers, the "appease the greater whole" argument falls apart. How many of the non-raiders would be interested in raids at all? Certainly not all. Would we lose a bunch of raiders if raids suddenly became even more faceroll than they (except challenge modes) already are? Certainly. The big question is: Would the number of players retained by easymode raids be greater than the number lost? No one knows for sure, but there are good reasons to believe that ANet's assessment (no advantage of easymodes) is correct. In the end, all the different game modes retain some fraction of the total playerbase. There's no need to try to appease everyone with everything, because that method simply does not work.

I mean, it kinda does.Those numbers are probable, not absolute.We could say thats because the raids are new to GW2, but until an official poll or metric is released we will always be in the dark about community activity.

But lets say it's 20% of people trying raids.

How many people actively clear raids?Thats were a lot of your story comes from, clearing wings.If I asked you to beat VG and tell me the story of the wing you wouldn't be able to, same as if someone asked you to kill just Cairn or Samarog.You actively need to clear the entire raid to get a sense of where the story is progressing.

This to me ( and others as well) is bad design. Continueing the story through a niche of the game that not a lot of people are able to CLEAR is the issue.

If they made a dungeon or an easy mode for them I would be fine with it ( let it give half the rewards if need be) . The direction right now though, is not one I could support or agree with.

Now the other issue is with some of the people in the raid community right now, and this is largely due to the allowance of DPS meters

If you show up in a pug group starting as a raider and you don't have enough LI you get kickedIf you are a DPS and for some reason you don't pull 15k you get kickedIf you mess up as a tank for what ever reason you get kickedAccidentally mess up a mechanic one time ( depending on the toxicity of the group) you get kickedSomeone else is on a class that the group would rather have ( like replacing a condi ranger for a condi weaver) you get kicked.No ascended gear? Kicked.Some of these instances are more common place than others ( like the DPS scenerio is actually quite common and I have been in groups where if you cant pull top rotation numbers you get kicked)

This is why a lot of people don't raid or are afraid of it....Raiding community kinda feels like an extension of the Spvp guys not gonna lie.

[Saranos.9703]

I guess the development team have decided that story mode is entering an already cleared instance to look around. Honestly, I raid very infrequently but other than loot rewards I doubt I'll feel left out that I'm unlikely to finish the new wing any time soon!You can still play the cutscenes so you can get a good idea of the story minus the fights of course.

[Kuulpb.5412]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Sinfullysweet.4517 said::s :s

The only issue I have with Raids is one thing.

Don't lock part of the story behind it.

:s :s Rewards yes by all means, but the story is the core content. Maybe add a story mode, with no rewards for those of us that really want to get the full story. Those of us who mentally can't do raids (mine is over stimulation, cant use voip) this would help us not feel like we are missing a core part of the story. Leave Raids as they are challenging content for those who like to push the ceiling, but a story path with no rewards but gives us casuals a way to complete the story and understand.

Re-post from the other thread:The developers went to great length to not make the Raid story an integral part of the overall story. In fact the NPCs you meet inside the Raid act as if you've never seen them before if you've never been inside the Raid. If you play the episodes without ever touching the Raid, you don't miss anything so there is hardly any problem. There is zero reason to believe that they won't do the same with the next Wing. After all Raids are side stories

I am replying a bit late as I just found this thread but - Squad leader bennet in living season 3 makes reference to the raid and infact gives a summary of the start of the raid, not the end, not how they escaped etc. meaning that the story is 100% tied to raids.

[tekfan.3179]

Anet should make solo-versions of the raids. By solo I mean solo: No party or squad allowed. No one to carry you through.The mobs and bosses get lowered stats (so a single person with a certain skill can beat them), but the mechanics stay the same. Whenever a mechanic requires multiple people, add some npcs to show what needs to be done.The only reward: A title which you achieve after finishing each wing at least ten times. (Maybe unlock the raid-masteries, not the collections though)People who want to experience the raid-story get the chance to do so.People who are interested in raids can train the boss-mechanics and are no longer limited to research via youtube-videos. They can "git gud" inside the game.With the title players can show that they have a grasp of the boss mechanics, even if they have no LIs.Veteran raiders then have a chance to see if fresh meat has put in the effort to learn the mechanics and is at least capable and equipped enough to clear the solo-raids.Those who just want to finish a raid and have no interest in expanding the raid-community still have the option to blindly kick everyone who has no LIs to show.

[zoomborg.9462]

@tekfan.3179 said:Anet should make solo-versions of the raids. By solo I mean solo: No party or squad allowed. No one to carry you through.The mobs and bosses get lowered stats (so a single person with a certain skill can beat them), but the mechanics stay the same. Whenever a mechanic requires multiple people, add some npcs to show what needs to be done.The only reward: A title which you achieve after finishing each wing at least ten times. (Maybe unlock the raid-masteries, not the collections though)People who want to experience the raid-story get the chance to do so.People who are interested in raids can train the boss-mechanics and are no longer limited to research via youtube-videos. They can "git gud" inside the game.With the title players can show that they have a grasp of the boss mechanics, even if they have no LIs.Veteran raiders then have a chance to see if fresh meat has put in the effort to learn the mechanics and is at least capable and equipped enough to clear the solo-raids.Those who just want to finish a raid and have no interest in expanding the raid-community still have the option to blindly kick everyone who has no LIs to show.

Solo......raids....... Solo raids....... Solo raids.........If u realistically even think something like that will ever be implemented now or in the future i feel sorry for you....

[Brynioch.1873]

@tekfan.3179 said:Anet should make solo-versions of the raids. By solo I mean solo: No party or squad allowed. No one to carry you through.The mobs and bosses get lowered stats (so a single person with a certain skill can beat them), but the mechanics stay the same. Whenever a mechanic requires multiple people, add some npcs to show what needs to be done.The only reward: A title which you achieve after finishing each wing at least ten times. (Maybe unlock the raid-masteries, not the collections though)People who want to experience the raid-story get the chance to do so.People who are interested in raids can train the boss-mechanics and are no longer limited to research via youtube-videos. They can "git gud" inside the game.With the title players can show that they have a grasp of the boss mechanics, even if they have no LIs.Veteran raiders then have a chance to see if fresh meat has put in the effort to learn the mechanics and is at least capable and equipped enough to clear the solo-raids.Those who just want to finish a raid and have no interest in expanding the raid-community still have the option to blindly kick everyone who has no LIs to show.

How can you learn a mechanic that needs interaction with multiple people if you are alone? VG alone would need a redesign for this.

[tekfan.3179]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@tekfan.3179 said:Anet should make solo-versions of the raids. By solo I mean solo: No party or squad allowed. No one to carry you through.The mobs and bosses get lowered stats (so a single person with a certain skill can beat them), but the mechanics stay the same. Whenever a mechanic requires multiple people, add some npcs to show what needs to be done.The only reward: A title which you achieve after finishing each wing at least ten times. (Maybe unlock the raid-masteries, not the collections though)People who want to experience the raid-story get the chance to do so.People who are interested in raids can train the boss-mechanics and are no longer limited to research via youtube-videos. They can "git gud" inside the game.With the title players can show that they have a grasp of the boss mechanics, even if they have no LIs.Veteran raiders then have a chance to see if fresh meat has put in the effort to learn the mechanics and is at least capable and equipped enough to clear the solo-raids.Those who just want to finish a raid and have no interest in expanding the raid-community still have the option to blindly kick everyone who has no LIs to show.

How can you learn a mechanic that needs interaction with multiple people if you are alone? VG alone would need a redesign for this.

Of course it wouldn't be the real deal.Just like Fractals have changes to their mechanics with every tier, a solo raid wouldn't give the full experience of a raid. As I mentioned you would need to add NPCs for mechanics that require multiple people or change parallel mechanics into successive patterns.Solo raids would be just an intermediary between the special forces area and the real raid. It's one thing to pump out a certain amount of damage on a passive mob, it's another thing to hold a certain dps while you're dealing with mechanics of events and bosses.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Miellyn.6847 said:Raids already appease more than 1%. They also appease the greater whole of players who are the target audience.Raids' target audience is not "the greater whole". Devs never meant for them to be done by more than a minority of players.

[Skobel.6920]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Raids' target audience is not "the greater whole". Devs never meant for them to be done by more than a minority of players.

Any quotation on that, or any other form of confirmation of this statement?

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Skobel.6920 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Raids' target audience is not "the greater whole". Devs never meant for them to be done by more than a minority of players.

Any quotation on that, or any other form of confirmation of this statement?

Full quote by lead raid designer.

@"Crystal Reid.2481" said:New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time.

Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

[Skobel.6920]

Well... great! They intentionally and willingly spent resources to provide content for <10% of players when for eg. ~40% plays WvW and PvP but we do not see any major updates/changes in these modes as often as we see new raids.

I know they provide LS or fractals for free, but I do not count that because:1) This is targetting almost everyone (LS) and majority (fractals), besides:2) A lot of raiders are just performance-freaks, who don't give kitten about story, lore or anything like that, keep skipping cutscenes, dialogues et cetera et cetera.They can do it as well in every other MMO

Almost everytime someone post the idea of bringing something new to the game, eg. new playable race, the answer is that this will cost too much of Anet resources and not everyone will ejnoy this. Well, as we see there can be whole team responsible for deliverig for group of max 10% whole player base. So now I wonder how many players would be interested in playing new race like Tengu or doing instances similar to GW1 elite zones and will these people get their desires fulfilled? What makes raiders so special that despite the fact they don't care about a lot of game content, Anet keep providing for them?

We have 5 raids already. Maybe it's time for another content, for ANOTHER 10%?

[Astralporing.1957]

@Skobel.6920 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Raids' target audience is not "the greater whole". Devs never meant for them to be done by more than a minority of players.

Any quotation on that, or any other form of confirmation of this statement?

Can't find the quote right now, but at the very beginning devs straight out said raids will be a content most players won't finish. They also said then raids should not be puggable, which means that it's already more accessible than original plans (they did cave in on that and made lfg for squads later on, but that wasn't in the original design).

[Brynioch.1873]

@Skobel.6920 said:Well... great! They intentionally and willingly spent resources to provide content for <10% of players when for eg. ~40% plays WvW and PvP but we do not see any major updates/changes in these modes as often as we see new raids.

I know they provide LS or fractals for free, but I do not count that because:1) This is targetting almost everyone (LS) and majority (fractals), besides:2) A lot of raiders are just performance-freaks, who don't give kitten about story, lore or anything like that, keep skipping cutscenes, dialogues et cetera et cetera.They can do it as well in every other MMO

Almost everytime someone post the idea of bringing something new to the game, eg. new playable race, the answer is that this will cost too much of Anet resources and not everyone will ejnoy this. Well, as we see there can be whole team responsible for deliverig for group of max 10% whole player base. So now I wonder how many players would be interested in playing new race like Tengu or doing instances similar to GW1 elite zones and will these people get their desires fulfilled? What makes raiders so special that despite the fact they don't care about a lot of game content, Anet keep providing for them?

We have 5 raids already. Maybe it's time for another content, for ANOTHER 10%?

I really doubt that 40% plays WvW and PvP and you don't have any proof for your 10% raider.A new race is extremly costly. Every piece of armor/weapons has to be fixed to fit the new class, new animations, new starting area, new personal story, new voice overs. All raid wings together are peanuts compared to a new race. Also it increases the ongoing development cost.How do you know that raider only play raids? I raid and play open world, fractals and PvP.Elite zones from GW1 exist. They are called raids here.

[Skobel.6920]

40% in WvW and PvP are developers own words from interview in Forbes some time before PoF.Raid data is from efficiency:Up to 65% have no LI at all.Further situation is little bit different for each group basing on time they played:4000h+: Up to ~35% is raiding, some more often, some less. I mean; they have 40 LI.2000-4000h: Up to ~15% is raiding with the same regularity as first group.Up to 2000h: Only ~5.5% is raiding with same regularity as these two groups.If we take efficiency's estimation for whole database then we can say that ~13% is doing raids regularly, the rest do not do them at all or have only finished them few times.We can also extract group with exactly 125 LI, which can be ppl interested only in armor and forced to do Raids: 8%.I know about how people approach lore and story from observing community.And elite zones from GW1 are VERY different from GW2 raids.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Skobel.6920 said:40% in WvW and PvP are developers own words from interview in Forbes some time before PoF.Raid data is from efficiency:Up to 65% have no LI at all.Further situation is little bit different for each group basing on time they played:4000h+: Up to ~35% is raiding, some more often, some less. I mean; they have 40 LI.2000-4000h: Up to ~15% is raiding with the same regularity as first group.Up to 2000h: Only ~5.5% is raiding with same regularity as these two groups.If we take efficiency's estimation for whole database then we can say that ~13% is doing raids regularly, the rest do not do them at all or have only finished them few times.We can also extract group with exactly 125 LI, which can be ppl interested only in armor and forced to do Raids: 8%.I know about how people approach lore and story from observing community.And elite zones from GW1 are VERY different from GW2 raids.

GW2efficiency data is skewed as there are people that don't play anymore or people that aren't registered at all.You need 150 LI for the first set, not 125.Urgoz and Depth also needed more people than the regular group. In what way are they different other than GW1 actually needed way more specialised builds to complete them? Failing in GW1 with a full wipe deleted all progress, GW2 is way more forgiving.

[Skobel.6920]

@Miellyn.6847 said:GW2efficiency data is skewed as there are people that don't play anymore or people that aren't registered at all.Yeah, I can say even more: only aware players have efficiency account. Majority of regular players do not have. I would even say raiders are more likely to have efficienty account than non-raiders. So yeah, we can easily say that numbers I provided are inflated.

Urgoz and Depth also needed more people than the regular group. In what way are they different other than GW1 actually needed way more specialised builds to complete them? Failing in GW1 with a full wipe deleted all progress, GW2 is way more forgiving.They weren't 5 minute time-gated, dps-oriented, narrow boss->boss->boss instances.They have a lot of encounters along the way, are bigger and suitable for more players. You were more likely to complete them with random pug group than you are likely to complete raid with pugs, and still they remain considered elite.And how is this forgiving? Boss HP is getting back to 100% anyway. No difference if you will be thrown outside or stay in. And if we talk about pre-boss fights like 3 guardians in Spirit Vale... well, if your group is able to kill them there is no difference to kill them again and if you struggle with this, there is no difference either because you probably won't kill main boss. Super-forgiving.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Skobel.6920 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:GW2efficiency data is skewed as there are people that don't play anymore or people that aren't registered at all.Yeah, I can say even more: only aware players have efficiency account. Majority of regular players do not have. I would even say raiders are more likely to have efficienty account than non-raiders. So yeah, we can easily say that numbers I provided are inflated.

Urgoz and Depth also needed more people than the regular group. In what way are they different other than GW1 actually needed way more specialised builds to complete them? Failing in GW1 with a full wipe deleted all progress, GW2 is way more forgiving.They weren't 5 minute time-gated, dps-oriented, narrow boss->boss->boss instances.They have a lot of encounters along the way, are bigger and suitable for more players. You were more likely to complete them with random pug group than you are likely to complete raid with pugs, and still they remain considered elite.And how is this forgiving? Boss HP is getting back to 100% anyway. No difference if you will be thrown outside or stay in. And if we talk about pre-boss fights like 3 guardians in Spirit Vale... well, if your group is able to kill them there is no difference to kill them again and if you struggle with this, there is no difference either because you probably won't kill main boss. Super-forgiving.

A lot of encounters? Trashmobs are not encounters.Experienced pugs have the same success as in GW1.The meta was much more rigid in GW1 than in GW2. Play the right class and build or gtfo was the norm in elite areas. People complain now, I don't think you can imaging the shit storm that will happen if you get the elitism from GW1 back.The difference is that one wipe at the endboss doesn't force you to replay the whole area and waste 2h to try it again.

If you struggle in GW1 it is even worse as you can't change your group composition. Either you can beat it with your current setup or restart. That's casual nightmare. Take off your rose-colored GW1 glasses.

[Walhalla.5473]

@Miellyn.6847 said:The meta was much more rigid in GW1 than in GW2. Play the right class and build or gtfo was the norm in elite areas. People complain now, I don't think you can imaging the kitten storm that will happen if you get the elitism from GW1 back.

Ah yes the times where playing Assassin on a normal Story mission would cause players to either leave or demand the leader to kick said Assassin. And when forced to play Ursan most people would say " Be glad, now people will take your class into any group ".

Compared to GW1, GW2 right now is Hello Kitty in term of elitism.