Stories Locked Behind Raids [Merged]

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:How are people calling the Underworld a raid?

Using your definition of a Raid, content that uses higher than the max player count, Underworld qualifies because in the rest of the game you could play with henchmen, but they were disabled in the Underworld and you could only go in with a team of 8 humans. Although there were zones that required 8 people, you could very well go there solo with 7 henchmen, something impossible for the Underworld.

Other than that I suppose another definition of a Raid is the hardest content in a game. After all, Arenanet developers did say that they want their Raids to be the hardest content, and the Underworld was also the hardest PVE content in GW1, so by the developer definition they are both Raids.

The hardest content definition doesn't work. When this game launched Anet called dungeons the hardest content in the game. No one ever called dungeons raids. And more to the point, in the six years I played Guild Wars 1, I never heard anyone refer to the Underworld as a raid either.

What's in a word? If anything, what I'm questioning by this line of discussion is whether ArenaNet should have named these things Elite Mission instead, to keep it as the GW universe term for what Raids are in other games.

The alternative is that they make an entirely different game mode called Elite missions, which in essence are the same as Raids. But in the end it really doesnt matter what you call it.

However, with the current implementation of raids, I have to admit that they are not the greatest experiences that they can be. I don't even mean difficulty wise. But they are linear progression, per encounter singular challenges rather than what UW was is GW1, more of a sand boxy experience where you could split up, do it in your own order and explore. (at least somewhat true for FoW UW and DoA, Urgoz and Kanaxai (the deep?) were more linear as well)

The "on-rails" design of them make them feel very arcade-y to me and much less like an exciting adventure into a dark dungeon or mystical location of whatever importance.(I suppose you could argue people would just cherrypick bosses, but this is already happening regardless with now 5 different wings)

[maddoctor.2738]

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:The "on-rails" design of them make them feel very arcade-y to me and much less like an exciting adventure into a dark dungeon or mystical location of whatever importance.

I guess they wanted to avoid splitting the Raid players. I mean, there have been low-man kills of the Raid bosses, if they allowed you to split to kill them faster, then that would create a different, even stricter meta. Remember the old days of waiting for a very specific assassin build to go solo part of UW? Allowing you to attack multiple bosses at once, by splitting the players, isn't always a good thing. That's why Raids have wings

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:The "on-rails" design of them make them feel very arcade-y to me and much less like an exciting adventure into a dark dungeon or mystical location of whatever importance.

I guess they wanted to avoid splitting the Raid players. I mean, there have been low-man kills of the Raid bosses, if they allowed you to split to kill them faster, then that would create a different, even stricter meta. Remember the old days of waiting for a very specific assassin build to go solo part of UW? Allowing you to attack multiple bosses at once, by splitting the players, isn't always a good thing. That's why Raids have wings

They have loads of methods to prevent that from happening. They could make it so you can only activate one encounter, or even set limits where you need to have at least x players to finish an encounter or sicceed a certain mechanic.

Plus I have to question how many low man runs are happening that it will most definitely make it into a stricter meta. I am doubtful it could become that significant. It could also mean the opposite where people just pick the easiest one and do that each week instead (escort). It might also make it more accessible to more players, where more people find an encounter they could do as opposed to the many they can't. Happened in Gw1 as well where people just did a few easier quests as opposed to a full run.

Anyway, I'm not going to claim it's easy to do so, but I feel it's at least possible to make more freeform raids than the current experience.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

After watching datamined cinematic of raid I have to say I am happy to see that whatever happens there is irrelevant in terms of lore for the game, both this and GW1, and is first, true sidestory raid that people not interested in playing raid content can ignore without remorse :)

[Ok I Did It.2854]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Justine.6351 said:Prophecies was released with a normal mode and people were soloing it with 55 monks lol.

You couldn't solo the Underworld with 55 monk :)

Yes you could, ( not all of it but a fair bit ) you could do it with the original 55hp monk, later nerfs made it extremely difficult, after said nerfs I used to duo farm it.

[Njordfinn.4921]

you could solo it with ele though and maybe you still can with ranger

[Lahmia.2193]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:Breaking news: Elite content from gw1 is made into elite content in gw2. In other news, water is wet and fire is hot. More of this at 10.

People literally duo raid bosses. I've seen someone DUAL BOX sloth. The content is not "elite".

Nothing in this game is "elite", this is the easiest raiding MMO on the market.

Well tell the people that don't like raids this. If they truly are that easy, everyone should be able to do them.

[Njordfinn.4921]

@Lahmia.2193 said:

Well tell the people that don't like raids this. If they truly are that easy, everyone should be able to do them.

Riding a bike is easy as well, still there are quite a few people who can't do it, either because they don't own a bike, haven't learned yet or are not physically capable of riding a bike.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Njordfinn.4921 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

Well tell the people that don't like raids this. If they truly are that easy, everyone should be able to do them.

Riding a bike is easy as well, still there are quite a few people who can't do it, either because they don't own a bike, haven't learned yet or are not physically capable of riding a bike.

So, they pass it and live happily ever after without it.

[Teratus.2859]

@Bullet.9271 said:Underworld was a raid in GW1 as well. Doesn't it make sense that it would be a raid in GW2 as well? Raids are part of the game, if you feel like you are missing out on any of the story either get a raid group together, or watch a stream. There are a lot of content creators out there that will be making videos on it, I am sure.

Actually it was an Elite dungeon.. we didn't have raids in Gw1.

Though realistically there isn't much difference lol

[Durzlla.6295]

@Coulter.2315 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:The Underworld was locked behind a raid in GW1.. Why are you surprised? I am thrilled they returned the Underworld to the franchise :D

The difference being that GW1 had heros and a normal mode and a hardmode.

Not when prophesies was released.

Yeah, but there was no timer, if you wanted to spend 12hrs as the tankiest safest group of 4 players you’d be capable of doing so just fine.

[hardy.7469]

I think, to a degree, having raids be for a small playset is fine.What I DON'T like, or never did in any MMO, is no easy way for other players to explore that area, especially in a game like GW2 where the raids are full of lore even post clear.We're 3 raids in (5 if you count wings)... The developers really should give players an easy way to access a clear state of the older raids. Let the new one be exclusive for those who like raiding for x amount of months, but let the older stuff be easier to access. Like stupid easy. Go talk to NPC, get your own clear state to run around and explore.

Heck I would pay for that access even, like those tickets like Mistlock Santuary.

There's no reason to lock old lore like that out of the game for players, especially as older raids become less and less played. I'd say the same for dungeons and fractals too, though to a lesser extent since they aren't as full of lore or as explorable as the raids.

[Indecision.4513]

@hardy.7469 said:I think, to a degree, having raids be for a small playset is fine.What I DON'T like, or never did in any MMO, is no easy way for other players to explore that area, especially in a game like GW2 where the raids are full of lore even post clear.We're 3 raids in (5 if you count wings)... The developers really should give players an easy way to access a clear state of the older raids. Let the new one be exclusive for those who like raiding for x amount of months, but let the older stuff be easier to access. Like stupid easy. Go talk to NPC, get your own clear state to run around and explore.

Heck I would pay for that access even, like those tickets like Mistlock Santuary.

There's no reason to lock old lore like that out of the game for players, especially as older raids become less and less played. I'd say the same for dungeons and fractals too, though to a lesser extent since they aren't as full of lore or as explorable as the raids.

I guess you never came up with the idea of joining one of the „cleared raid, chests marked” lfgs, which are populating the LFG ever since raids came out? All of the raid „lore” is easily and mostly only available after a raid is cleared.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Raguel.9402 said:

@hardy.7469 said:I think, to a degree, having raids be for a small playset is fine.What I DON'T like, or never did in any MMO, is no easy way for other players to explore that area, especially in a game like GW2 where the raids are full of lore even post clear.We're 3 raids in (5 if you count wings)... The developers really should give players an easy way to access a clear state of the older raids. Let the new one be exclusive for those who like raiding for x amount of months, but let the older stuff be easier to access. Like stupid easy. Go talk to NPC, get your own clear state to run around and explore.

Heck I would pay for that access even, like those tickets like Mistlock Santuary.

There's no reason to lock old lore like that out of the game for players, especially as older raids become less and less played. I'd say the same for dungeons and fractals too, though to a lesser extent since they aren't as full of lore or as explorable as the raids.

I guess you never came up with the idea and joining one of the „cleared raid, chests marked” lfgs, which are populating the LFG since raids came out?

Or better yet, go to the Aerodrome and ask for a cleared instance. You might find it surprising but many players are ready to open a cleared instance. Free of charge

[zealex.9410]

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I remember clearing UW for the first time on my Rit and fighting Dhuum at the end. That fight was a close contender for raid encounter. Also when you failed in UW you lost money. I’m really not sure why people are surprised by this as it was an elite area in gw1. If the fissure of woe is released prepare for a raid wing.

Because it is 2017 and people are used to games being always easier and easier, with the argumentation that every single part of a game should be tweaked for the pleasure of the casual player first and foremost, no matter the other players.

Thats not an excuse. More ppl would be pissed if uw was a lw map with the current lvl of challenge those maps show.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I remember clearing UW for the first time on my Rit and fighting Dhuum at the end. That fight was a close contender for raid encounter. Also when you failed in UW you lost money. I’m really not sure why people are surprised by this as it was an elite area in gw1. If the fissure of woe is released prepare for a raid wing.

Because it is 2017 and people are used to games being always easier and easier, with the argumentation that every single part of a game should be tweaked for the pleasure of the casual player first and foremost, no matter the other players.

Thats not an excuse. More ppl would be pissed if uw was a lw map with the current lvl of challenge those maps show.

Not really. You are a minority :)

I am pretty sure in both cases majority don't care. New wing, even though it pretends to be UW, offers nothing in comparison to GW1 UW so players fixated about this place can ignore it. Mad Kings Realm feels more UW than actual GW2 UW :)

[Justine.6351]

Think everyone has said their part,I'm not that worried about the UW being a raid as I liked FoW more, but that just leaves the question...Is FoW going to end up as a raid now?

Perhaps raids just need a normal and a hardmode. Normal mode didn't "ruin" gw1. Hardmode was just far more rewarding so people tended to play that instead.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Justine.6351 said:Think everyone has said their part,I'm not that worried about the UW being a raid as I liked FoW more, but that just leaves the question...Is FoW going to end up as a raid now?

Perhaps raids just need a normal and a hardmode. Normal mode didn't "ruin" gw1. Hardmode was just far more rewarding so people tended to play that instead.

Trust me, this wing is nothing like UW from GW1. It's a shallow, boring instance. I think it's actually better they did it this way. We lose nothing ignoring this place.

[Amineo.8951]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Justine.6351 said:Think everyone has said their part,I'm not that worried about the UW being a raid as I liked FoW more, but that just leaves the question...Is FoW going to end up as a raid now?

Perhaps raids just need a normal and a hardmode. Normal mode didn't "ruin" gw1. Hardmode was just far more rewarding so people tended to play that instead.

Trust me, this wing is nothing like UW from GW1. It's a shallow, boring instance. I think it's actually better they did it this way. We lose nothing ignoring this place.

Yeah for once Living Story Episodes "stories" are getting better and darker, something the game lacked for a while.

[Deihnyx.6318]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I remember clearing UW for the first time on my Rit and fighting Dhuum at the end. That fight was a close contender for raid encounter. Also when you failed in UW you lost money. I’m really not sure why people are surprised by this as it was an elite area in gw1. If the fissure of woe is released prepare for a raid wing.

Because it is 2017 and people are used to games being always easier and easier, with the argumentation that every single part of a game should be tweaked for the pleasure of the casual player first and foremost, no matter the other players.

Thats not an excuse. More ppl would be pissed if uw was a lw map with the current lvl of challenge those maps show.

This isn't meant to be an excuse. More like a expression of exasperation that there's always people to tell others that the way they play/like the game isn't right, and that the game should be adapted for their own needs.

[maxwelgm.4315]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Bullet.9271 said:Underworld was a raid in GW1 as well. Doesn't it make sense that it would be a raid in GW2 as well? Raids are part of the game, if you feel like you are missing out on any of the story either get a raid group together, or watch a stream. There are a lot of content creators out there that will be making videos on it, I am sure.

Actually it was an Elite dungeon.. we didn't have raids in Gw1.

Though realistically there isn't much difference lol

Realistically there are quite some differences because Elite Instances in GW1 were much more akin to what the dungeon team tried to do here (and succeeded until dungeons were simply scrapped off). It seems to be a pattern that the raid scheme here has to be 1) Linear and 2) Be tuned to enforce particular optimizations.

It would probably be a failure to actually reproduce the GW1 model here, thinking about it. Consider something like the Domain of Anguish that had amazing speed run records but took more than an hour for the average team with a meta build (consider also the meta was basically one guy luring as many enemies as he could at once followed by a bombardment of AoE from everyone else), and over 2 hours for the more careful/ non-meta groups. Or something like Slaver's Exile that had large groups of strong trash mobs you had to carefully aggro one by one.

GW1 had the peculiarity that enemies played exactly the same way as the players do, with builds and cooldowns, and due to the way builds worked you could come up with dozens of combinations which worked very well in any given content. Here we are much more limited, to the point Chronos are basically never going anywhere with their distortion and whoever Anet wants to be the "might bot" is also never going anywhere, and that's really the only kind of team which works in the end. The price to pay for having the diversity we had in GW1 though, would be longer instances in average, and it would only truly work if we had a lot of trash mob based dungeons rather than bosses with very tight and specific mechanics (i.e no longer what came to be known as raids).

As for UW being a raid here, that's the only way we would "do justice" to the content, which is something WoodenPotatoes has also discussed at large during the release of Bastion of the Penitent. What made the elite instances memorable in GW1 was precisely this aura of "unattainable" treasures that surrounded it. It can be argued though, that the gameplay options to finish said content in GW1 was much wider and much more lenient than it is here in GW2. I've completed every elite instance area and regularly finished FoW with my guildies in GW1 for example, with our own builds (that we modified accordingly as we learned, so they worked better and better). Even if I wanted to tell people to do the same thing here, I know they will end up with some variation of quickness+might+unique support buffs anyway, so my point would be moot.

[Amineo.8951]

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Bullet.9271 said:Underworld was a raid in GW1 as well. Doesn't it make sense that it would be a raid in GW2 as well? Raids are part of the game, if you feel like you are missing out on any of the story either get a raid group together, or watch a stream. There are a lot of content creators out there that will be making videos on it, I am sure.

Actually it was an Elite dungeon.. we didn't have raids in Gw1.

Though realistically there isn't much difference lol

Realistically there are quite some differences because Elite Instances in GW1 were much more akin to what the dungeon team tried to do here (and succeeded until dungeons were simply scrapped off). It seems to be a pattern that the raid scheme here has to be 1) Linear and 2) Be tuned to enforce particular optimizations.

It would probably be a failure to actually reproduce the GW1 model here, thinking about it. Consider something like the Domain of Anguish that had amazing speed run records but took more than an hour for the average team with a meta build (consider also the meta was basically one guy luring as many enemies as he could at once followed by a bombardment of AoE from everyone else), and over 2 hours for the more careful/ non-meta groups. Or something like Slaver's Exile that had large groups of strong trash mobs you had to carefully aggro one by one.

GW1 had the peculiarity that enemies played exactly the same way as the players do, with builds and cooldowns, and due to the way builds worked you could come up with dozens of combinations which worked very well in any given content. Here we are much more limited, to the point Chronos are basically never going anywhere with their distortion and whoever Anet wants to be the "might bot" is also never going anywhere, and that's really the only kind of team which works in the end. The price to pay for having the diversity we had in GW1 though, would be longer instances in average, and it would only truly work if we had a lot of trash mob based dungeons rather than bosses with very tight and specific mechanics (i.e no longer what came to be known as raids).

As for UW being a raid here, that's the only way we would "do justice" to the content, which is something WoodenPotatoes has also discussed at large during the release of Bastion of the Penitent. What made the elite instances memorable in GW1 was precisely this aura of "unattainable" treasures that surrounded it. It can be argued though, that the gameplay options to finish said content in GW1 was much wider and much more lenient than it is here in GW2. I've completed every elite instance area and regularly finished FoW with my guildies in GW1 for example, with our own builds (that we modified accordingly as we learned, so they worked better and better). Even if I wanted to tell people to do the same thing here, I know they will end up with some variation of quickness+might+unique support buffs anyway, so my point would be moot.

I think we will see Menzies very soon then considering what happens near the end of the new raid wing and what was his goal which is "semi-fulfilled" after the end of PoF's main story.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Justine.6351 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:The Underworld was locked behind a raid in GW1.. Why are you surprised? I am thrilled they returned the Underworld to the franchise :D

The difference being that GW1 had heros and a normal mode and a hardmode.

Honestly, that was something added very late into the game's life and in all honesty there'd be no way in hell you could beat Underworld with a full hero team.

Underworld in GW1 was originally for full human team. Henchmen not allowed. Heroes being allowed came in with NF but even then you'd only get a half team and even with 2 players and 6 heroes you'd not beat pre-Dhuum Underworld very easily, even on normal mode. 7 hero teams came in when GW1 was expected to be dying off, so as to allow people to still play high end content. GW2 is still alive and well - I won't expect any means to make raids or fractals easier until plans for the next ArenaNet game comes around.

Besides, GW1 may have had normal mode and hardmode... But GW2 has normal mode and challenge mode.

@Erasculio.2914 said:

@Bullet.9271 said:Underworld was a raid in GW1 as well.

Errrr... No, it wasn't?

That's like saying Orr is a raid. It wasn't something so different from the main game - same number of players, same structure as a common map, only a bit harder. At the time, a lot of people asked for "real" raids, which led ArenaNet to implement end game areas with a higher number of players in the next chapter, GW: Factions, together with mechanics that required more coordination (like the splits required in the Jade Sea area). Those were called "Elite Missions", and the Underworld was never officially called one.

Originally, both the Underworld and the Fissure of Woe were a PvE reward for PvP. They would only be open for players whose world held the Hall of Heroes, in the Tombs of Primeval Kings PvP mode. I can't help but laugh at what would happen if something similar were implemented for raids today.

Underworld was pretty different to the rest of the game. You couldn't bring henchmen into it, so until Nightfall came around you HAD to have a part of humans or you solo'd it. Same with Fissure of Woe, Urgoz's Warren, The Deep, and Domain of Anguish. And as you said, it was content that was allowed for the "best server at PvP" (until later in the game when passage scrolls got added and when favor was attached to titles instead).

While Urgoz's Warren and The Deep may be closest to GW2 raids due to their linear nature and expanded party size, UW and FoW were still end game content, just as T4 Fractals and Raids are for GW2.

[Dahkeus.8243]

@Justine.6351 said:Yeah ok, ty for that. Feels good to not be a Raid player.

It’s Underworld! What do you expect? UW was designed to be the most difficult content in GW1 (until later expansions, of course), so it makes sense for it to be added as the most difficult content in GW2.

[Azoqu.8917]

Is everyone forgetting that in GW1, everyone was expecting to run the meta for the area? Yes metas changed for each zone, but each zone had a unique meta and no one complained about it. Why has it become such a huge thing for GW2 players to complain about meta? Whenever people reach back to GW1, they totally rose-tinted glasses it. There were always "raids", there was always a "meta" (searing blaze for everywhere until GWEN, rit channel for DoA, shadow form tanking, etc.), there were healers and tanks, at the start of the game everyone hated Rangers and Necros (hey just like GW2), and so on.

Underworld makes sense as a raid, anything else and Dhuum would be a complete joke in the lore. Just look at Lazarus and Balthazar, they are complete jokes compared to Sabatha, Matthias, Xera, Gorse, Daimos, and the rest.