Stories Locked Behind Raids [Merged]

[STIHL.2489]

this is Hilarious, and I am loving watching Anet shoot themselves in the foot with this whole raid thing at this point. Well have fun!

[Sykper.6583]

Seems like they brought back UW as a raid, and a very difficult wing overall.

Works for me, fits with what it was originally.

[maxwelgm.4315]

@Azoqu.8917 said:Is everyone forgetting that in GW1, everyone was expecting to run the meta for the area? Yes metas changed for each zone, but each zone had a unique meta and no one complained about it. Why has it become such a huge thing for GW2 players to complain about meta? Whenever people reach back to GW1, they totally rose-tinted glasses it. There were always "raids", there was always a "meta" (searing blaze for everywhere until GWEN, rit channel for DoA, shadow form tanking, etc.), there were healers and tanks, at the start of the game everyone hated Rangers and Necros (hey just like GW2), and so on.

Underworld makes sense as a raid, anything else and Dhuum would be a complete joke in the lore. Just look at Lazarus and Balthazar, they are complete jokes compared to Sabatha, Matthias, Xera, Gorse, Daimos, and the rest.

See post above, in GW1 you could run with guildies on a completely whacky (insofar as it's self-made and tailored for the survival of your specific party) build and still come out victorious due to the sheer number of different possible skill combinations, and due to the fact that skill combinations meant everything to begin with. You'd be surprised at the amount of non-meta people that ran the content regularly, a lot of people going in and "wasting" their time on long runs, but they were very fun to do anyway. The meta existed but standard deviation from it was very large and lenient, that's why "no one" or almost no one complained, even back then. Also consider that the very nature of the elite zones allowed for this lenience, because most of them had only a select number of time gated quests (mostly escort-like) and it was actually an option to take it much slower and defensively if your party was finding it hard to do the speedway builds.

This is not a problem of the playerbase but merely a consequence of mechanics, that in GW2 whatever attempt you make to diversify builds will all arrive at the same point: DPS - might/quickness bot - every unique offensive support you can get. Taking out enrage would allow for turtling but would also trivialize mechanics by allowing you to bring 4 healers to every encounter. And the sheer boredom of having 40 minute fights would just have everyone back into shoehorning every damage tick they can get into their builds. There's nothing particularly wrong with this, people should just admit it's how the game works intrinsically. What Anet is doing now is the best we can have for Raids in a game such as this one, they're really pushing the envelope here, and it deserves congratulations, even if the format is not nearly as good as Elite zones from GW1.

[Skobel.6920]

Primarily the GW1 elite zones were WAY MORE accessible and available to do with way more tactics than GW2 raids, yet they remain considered elite.

GW2 high-end content is locked behind skill-door. One need to have properly eye-hand coordination, reflexes, be able to perform complicated rotations, combos, be aware of AoEs

NOT EVERYONE IS CAPABLE TO DO SO.I'm not even talking about time you need to learn this (which not everyone have). Simply not everyone is able to 'git gud'.Collecting materials for legendary items required time, and you want to tell me that I need even more time to learn how to do some boss? And still I can't be sure that every group would take me and that every other player will also be capable and allow our group to succed? I'm not even considering buying kills.And if someone want to start with: "If you don't like it, leave it" talk:Listen here, punk, I'm in this franchise 12 years by now. I'm not going anywhere.

On the other hand almost all GW1 elite zones were possible to complete with patience: by avoiding aggros and pulling/luring groups of mobs.

You were able to do FoW with pugs on meta builds, you just needed to be patient and kill mobs group by group - sometimes it took 3 hours with unskilled group but was possible for everyone.

DoA had build called DwG - it was almost failproff: required 3 of 4 skilled, aware players and rest were allowed to be even complete noobs; they were just cliking 1,2,3,4,5 repeat. This were allowing almost all players to do 4 or 3 zones (Foundry was hard part) and then Mallyx. Again: sometimes it took over two hours, and you had to be patient, avoid groups of mobs etc.

Deep and Urgoz were doable with pugs on random builds but again patience was primary value. Final boss was challenging tho, but not infeasible.

And like I was talking about multiple tactics: this 3 hour long attempts were for regular players, with heroes or with pugs, on meta builds but not neccesary.Some better players were able to do this in 1 hour.And pro, skilled players were able to do this instances in up to 30 minutes.

But these locations were not like GW2 raids where you are fighting almost only powerful bosses. There we had large map, regular mobs, some champion/elite-like and some boss-like. And I lack this kind of challenges. I value patience over performance, GW2 end-game content is not.

[zealex.9410]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Justine.6351 said:Think everyone has said their part,I'm not that worried about the UW being a raid as I liked FoW more, but that just leaves the question...Is FoW going to end up as a raid now?

Perhaps raids just need a normal and a hardmode. Normal mode didn't "ruin" gw1. Hardmode was just far more rewarding so people tended to play that instead.

Trust me, this wing is nothing like UW from GW1. It's a shallow, boring instance. I think it's actually better they did it this way. We lose nothing ignoring this place.

Its one instanc of the uw that arguable was working as a prison for dhuum. Idk what would you expect from a frozen wasteland. Wheter its shallow and boring is personal preference but iv heard alot more ppl praising it than saying bad stuff about it so you are the minority there. :)

[zealex.9410]

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@Azoqu.8917 said:Is everyone forgetting that in GW1, everyone was expecting to run the meta for the area? Yes metas changed for each zone, but each zone had a unique meta and no one complained about it. Why has it become such a huge thing for GW2 players to complain about meta? Whenever people reach back to GW1, they totally rose-tinted glasses it. There were always "raids", there was always a "meta" (searing blaze for everywhere until GWEN, rit channel for DoA, shadow form tanking, etc.), there were healers and tanks, at the start of the game everyone hated Rangers and Necros (hey just like GW2), and so on.

Underworld makes sense as a raid, anything else and Dhuum would be a complete joke in the lore. Just look at Lazarus and Balthazar, they are complete jokes compared to Sabatha, Matthias, Xera, Gorse, Daimos, and the rest.

See post above, in GW1 you could run with guildies on a completely whacky (insofar as it's self-made and tailored for the survival of your specific party) build and still come out victorious due to the sheer number of different possible skill combinations, and due to the fact that skill combinations meant everything to begin with. You'd be surprised at the amount of non-meta people that ran the content regularly, a lot of people going in and "wasting" their time on long runs, but they were very fun to do anyway. The meta existed but standard deviation from it was very large and lenient, that's why "no one" or almost no one complained, even back then. Also consider that the very nature of the elite zones allowed for this lenience, because most of them had only a select number of time gated quests (mostly escort-like) and it was actually an option to take it much slower and defensively if your party was finding it hard to do the speedway builds.

This is not a problem of the playerbase but merely a consequence of mechanics, that in GW2 whatever attempt you make to diversify builds will all arrive at the same point: DPS - might/quickness bot - every unique offensive support you can get. Taking out enrage would allow for turtling but would also trivialize mechanics by allowing you to bring 4 healers to every encounter. And the sheer boredom of having 40 minute fights would just have everyone back into shoehorning every damage tick they can get into their builds. There's nothing particularly wrong with this, people should just admit it's how the game works intrinsically. What Anet is doing now is the best we can have for Raids in a game such as this one, they're really pushing the envelope here, and it deserves congratulations, even if the format is not nearly as good as Elite zones from GW1.

You are free to do raids and succed with whatever comp and build you like nobody is stoping you only your own skill and experience.

[zealex.9410]

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I remember clearing UW for the first time on my Rit and fighting Dhuum at the end. That fight was a close contender for raid encounter. Also when you failed in UW you lost money. I’m really not sure why people are surprised by this as it was an elite area in gw1. If the fissure of woe is released prepare for a raid wing.

Because it is 2017 and people are used to games being always easier and easier, with the argumentation that every single part of a game should be tweaked for the pleasure of the casual player first and foremost, no matter the other players.

Thats not an excuse. More ppl would be pissed if uw was a lw map with the current lvl of challenge those maps show.

This isn't meant to be an excuse. More like a expression of exasperation that there's always people to tell others that the way they play/like the game isn't right, and that the game should be adapted for their own needs.

Telling you that playing something isnt as efficient and telling you that isnt right are 2 diff things.

[maddoctor.2738]

@maxwelgm.4315 said:See post above, in GW1 you could run with guildies on a completely whacky (insofar as it's self-made and tailored for the survival of your specific party) build and still come out victorious

You can do this in GW2 as well. You know what the problem is when you compare GW2 with GW1 in this manner? You compare pugs in GW2 with your run with guildies in GW1. Guild runs with weird builds can succeed in GW2 Raids as much as guild runs in GW1 did.

[Coulter.2315]

@Durzlla.6295 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:The Underworld was locked behind a raid in GW1.. Why are you surprised? I am thrilled they returned the Underworld to the franchise :D

The difference being that GW1 had heros and a normal mode and a hardmode.

Not when prophesies was released.

Yeah, but there was no timer, if you wanted to spend 12hrs as the tankiest safest group of 4 players you’d be capable of doing so just fine.

And if you all died you got booted out, which mechanic would you prefer in GW2? Nonissue enrages or single wipe forces you to start the instance again, shall we vote?

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Justine.6351 said:Think everyone has said their part,I'm not that worried about the UW being a raid as I liked FoW more, but that just leaves the question...Is FoW going to end up as a raid now?

Perhaps raids just need a normal and a hardmode. Normal mode didn't "ruin" gw1. Hardmode was just far more rewarding so people tended to play that instead.

Trust me, this wing is nothing like UW from GW1. It's a shallow, boring instance. I think it's actually better they did it this way. We lose nothing ignoring this place.

Its one instanc of the uw that arguable was working as a prison for dhuum. Idk what would you expect from a frozen wasteland. Wheter its shallow and boring is personal preference but iv heard alot more ppl praising it than saying bad stuff about it so you are the minority there. :)

I see praising boss mechanics, which is okay for your niche. I'm talking about representation of UW which is nothing here compared to GW1 original. But it's good, because it truly is a side story which can be ignored :)

[Jacuzzi.1643]

In this thread: people that are too lazy to get good at the game

If story was really that important to you guys, you'd have the motivation to get better at the game. I work full time and can only spare 2-3 hours a night but I was able to clear all of the raids. Like many others have already said, you can always watch a video or join a cleared instance. Let's face it, the "b-b-but muh story locked behind raids" argument is really just an excuse for lazy players that want to 11111111 a sack of hp and call themselves raiders.

[mercury ranique.2170]

Why comparing GW1 and GW2 is bad:They are two different games that share the same name. If you want to do underworld in GW1 style, download GW1 and do it.

I dislike raids as much as you do, but that doesnt mean that I dislike the raiders having new content. They are our fellow tyrians and I am happy they finally have new content. Don't be that spoiled kid at school that wants it all.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Justine.6351 said:Think everyone has said their part,I'm not that worried about the UW being a raid as I liked FoW more, but that just leaves the question...Is FoW going to end up as a raid now?

Perhaps raids just need a normal and a hardmode. Normal mode didn't "ruin" gw1. Hardmode was just far more rewarding so people tended to play that instead.

Trust me, this wing is nothing like UW from GW1. It's a shallow, boring instance. I think it's actually better they did it this way. We lose nothing ignoring this place.

Its one instanc of the uw that arguable was working as a prison for dhuum. Idk what would you expect from a frozen wasteland. Wheter its shallow and boring is personal preference but iv heard alot more ppl praising it than saying bad stuff about it so you are the minority there. :)

I see praising boss mechanics, which is okay for your niche. I'm talking about representation of UW which is nothing here compared to GW1 original. But it's good, because it truly is a side story which can be ignored :)

It ist not the whole Underworld from GW1. You can only play the frozen wastes and we are over 250 years later. Even realms of gods can change. They hit the atmosphere of the frozen wastes pretty good and the room for the last boss is just amazing especially if you compare it to the same room in GW1 (where it also exists).

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@mercury ranique.2170 said:Why comparing GW1 and GW2 is bad:They are two different games that share the same name. If you want to do underworld in GW1 style, download GW1 and do it.

I dislike raids as much as you do, but that doesnt mean that I dislike the raiders having new content. They are our fellow tyrians and I am happy they finally have new content. Don't be that spoiled kid at school that wants it all.

People selling ATs are also fellow Tyrians :)

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Justine.6351 said:Think everyone has said their part,I'm not that worried about the UW being a raid as I liked FoW more, but that just leaves the question...Is FoW going to end up as a raid now?

Perhaps raids just need a normal and a hardmode. Normal mode didn't "ruin" gw1. Hardmode was just far more rewarding so people tended to play that instead.

Trust me, this wing is nothing like UW from GW1. It's a shallow, boring instance. I think it's actually better they did it this way. We lose nothing ignoring this place.

Its one instanc of the uw that arguable was working as a prison for dhuum. Idk what would you expect from a frozen wasteland. Wheter its shallow and boring is personal preference but iv heard alot more ppl praising it than saying bad stuff about it so you are the minority there. :)

I see praising boss mechanics, which is okay for your niche. I'm talking about representation of UW which is nothing here compared to GW1 original. But it's good, because it truly is a side story which can be ignored :)

It ist not the whole Underworld from GW1. You can only play the frozen wastes and we are over 250 years later. Even realms of gods can change. They hit the atmosphere of the frozen wastes pretty good and the last boss room is just amazing especially if you compare it to the same room in GW1 (where it also exists).

It's just an arena with the boss, whole raid is since the beginning a boss/event chain with nothing in between. If you like new raid that's cool, I'm happy they made it so shallow compared to GW1 original UW so no hard feelings here as I lose nothing ignoring it :)

[Khaliel.3918]

MMOInks was right. We need the infantile mode for raids. RIDE THE CLOUDS, MY FELLOW CAREBEARS! YEEEEHAAAWWWW

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Alehin.3746 said:MMOInks was right. We need the infantile mode for raids. RIDE THE CLOUDS, MY FELLOW CAREBEARS! YEEEEHAAAWWWW

If it didn't give any rewards it would remove nothing from raiding minority :)

After all, this is not prestigous content :)

[Brynioch.1873]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Alehin.3746 said:MMOInks was right. We need the infantile mode for raids. RIDE THE CLOUDS, MY FELLOW CAREBEARS! YEEEEHAAAWWWW

If it didn't give any rewards it would remove nothing from raiding minority :)

After all, this is not prestigous content :)

Except development time and longer release cycles.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Alehin.3746 said:MMOInks was right. We need the infantile mode for raids. RIDE THE CLOUDS, MY FELLOW CAREBEARS! YEEEEHAAAWWWW

If it didn't give any rewards it would remove nothing from raiding minority :)

After all, this is not prestigous content :)

Except development time and longer release cycles.

You don't know this :)

[sigur.9453]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Alehin.3746 said:MMOInks was right. We need the infantile mode for raids. RIDE THE CLOUDS, MY FELLOW CAREBEARS! YEEEEHAAAWWWW

If it didn't give any rewards it would remove nothing from raiding minority :)

After all, this is not prestigous content :)

Except development time and longer release cycles.

You don't know this :)

A complete rework will of course take devtime. Most likly done by the raid team. So we can be pretty sure it will.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@sigur.9453 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Alehin.3746 said:MMOInks was right. We need the infantile mode for raids. RIDE THE CLOUDS, MY FELLOW CAREBEARS! YEEEEHAAAWWWW

If it didn't give any rewards it would remove nothing from raiding minority :)

After all, this is not prestigous content :)

Except development time and longer release cycles.

You don't know this :)

A complete rework will of course take devtime. Most likly done by the raid team. So we can be pretty sure it will.

It's not a complet rework. It's changing numbers. It's definitely easier than you make it out to be. Legendary armor is a proven waste of time and resources though :)

[maddoctor.2738]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:It's not a complet rework. It's changing numbers. It's definitely easier than you make it out to be. Legendary armor is a proven waste of time and resources though :)

Changing numbers won't work, if you played the encounters you'd know :)

[sigur.9453]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Alehin.3746 said:MMOInks was right. We need the infantile mode for raids. RIDE THE CLOUDS, MY FELLOW CAREBEARS! YEEEEHAAAWWWW

If it didn't give any rewards it would remove nothing from raiding minority :)

After all, this is not prestigous content :)

Except development time and longer release cycles.

You don't know this :)

A complete rework will of course take devtime. Most likly done by the raid team. So we can be pretty sure it will.

It's not a complet rework. It's changing numbers. It's definitely easier than you make it out to be. Legendary armor is a proven waste of time and resources though :)

Its going way off topic here, but no.It not "just changing numbers", they will need to rework all the mechanics to make it more "consumer friendly".Simply nerving the boss HP and DMG won´t fix it. 9/10 wipes happen because of mechanical fails.I honestly have no idea about coding (do you?) but if it would be so easy in just "changing numbers" they would have probaply already done it.As every other company they evaludade the costs of such a task and decided that it would not be cost-efficent.Proven by whom? An expert analyst? Could you Link me his report?

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:It's not a complet rework. It's changing numbers. It's definitely easier than you make it out to be. Legendary armor is a proven waste of time and resources though :)

Changing numbers won't work, if you played the encounters you'd know :)

Less HP, no enrage timer, smaller damage numbers, longer damage / mechanic fail windows. It's all numbers and it's enough to make it into story instance, still group instance, but without rewards and no pressure :)

[Brynioch.1873]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:It's not a complet rework. It's changing numbers. It's definitely easier than you make it out to be. Legendary armor is a proven waste of time and resources though :)

Changing numbers won't work, if you played the encounters you'd know :)

Less HP, no enrage timer, smaller damage numbers, longer damage / mechanic fail windows. It's all numbers and it's enough to make it into story instance, still group instance, but without rewards and no pressure :)

All those changes together accumulate a lot of develeopment time :)Also you have to rework most of the group wipe or instant kill mechanics.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:It's not a complet rework. It's changing numbers. It's definitely easier than you make it out to be. Legendary armor is a proven waste of time and resources though :)

Changing numbers won't work, if you played the encounters you'd know :)

Less HP, no enrage timer, smaller damage numbers, longer damage / mechanic fail windows. It's all numbers and it's enough to make it into story instance, still group instance, but without rewards and no pressure :)

All those changes together accumulate a lot of develeopment time :)Also you have to rework most of the group wipe or instant kill mechanics.

Numbers is not of developement time. Turning off insta kill mechanics shouldn't be either. They don't release much raid content anyway, they have time to do this :)

I never claimed it's 0 work but someone said "complete rework" which is a lie :)